How to KNOW that one is a machine?

[Andrey]

Hello.

I'm sure many of us here are familiar with the concept of the "machine," but my understanding of it is still of a theoretical nature. It makes sense in a lot of ways when I learn about the workings of the human anatomy or read some psychology, etc., but I still find myself reverting back to my old ways. I have made some progress in some areas in terms of breaking old habits, but some habits seem harder to break, and when I do relapse, I try to remind myself of my mechanical nature, but it's difficult to internalize fully. Gurdjieff emphasized man as machine in quite literal terms, which is so hard to grasp. Should we take it as a metaphor or take it quite literally. In some ways, I interpret it quite literally, while in other ways I think of it metaphorically, and wonder if I should take it more literally.

I was reading some literature today, and the author is very elegant and poetic with his prose. I'm reading it and also thinking about what Gurdjieff talked about how even stuff like this that seem so mesmerizing is also equally mechanical. It can be hard to internalize the machine concept when you run into things that don't seem so mechanical but seem to be very creative or even divinely inspired.

So I would like to ask this forum what are some ways one can truly KNOW that one is a machine. How should we interpret the concept and what are the best avenues of research one might want to look into to truly understand the true nature of man?

Thanks for reading.

 

[Puma]

I think we are all machines until we become aware of our automatic responses and work to overcome that mechanization. Otherwise we will remain machines.

 

[iamthatis]

I'd say one simple way to truly know we are a machine is that we can 'revert to our old ways' despite our best intentions and efforts to do better. Often enough we also don't even know that we actually do have 'old ways' that we revert to because it's so deeply ingrained in us. I know that in my own case, I didn't know that. I didn't think at all about what 'better' even looked like.

So I agree with Puma, I think it hinges on developing our awareness to a certain level. This can be a very personal change, but it seems to work the best if it involves a network, a group who helps us see ourselves from the outside, which offers much more objective feedback.

Setting an Aim has been a key for me in seeing how mechanical I can be. I set an aim, and then notice myself coming up with all kinds of excuses to not follow through or to take shortcuts. I like how Samenow wrote so very clearly about this in Inside the Criminal Mind. These kinds of excuse-making voices are a personal choice to drop our conscious commitments and indulge in our mechanical nature. Usually it's a matter of pain avoidance in times of fatigue and stress.

I found this all to be very well described in the final chapter of Beelzebub's tales. Have you read it?

 

[Nević Nenad]

I'd say, short answer is: you cant. But, working not to be one, is what counts.

 

[Alejo]

So I would like to ask this forum what are some ways one can truly KNOW that one is a machine. How should we interpret the concept and what are the best avenues of research one might want to look into to truly understand the true nature of man?

I think it's a realization one arrives at after observation, in small innocuous matters and larger ones. For instance, I notice my shopping habits change depending on whether I go to the store before or after having had a meal. It's a simple mundane example, but it's there as a reminder that there's a lot of laws influencing my behavior, laws that unless I question and consciously struggle against, will remain in control, making my behavior predictable and automatic, as a machine would be programable.

However, I can see how it happens that the concept remains merely interesting and eventually easy to forget. I think this is one of the reason's why G mentioned that one needed to reach a point of bankruptcy in order to appreciate some of these concepts and incorporate them into one's life.

In my experience, it wasn't until some of these automatic aspects of my being became painfully frustrating, that I didn't feel completely helpless in front of them, so beyond the intellectual appreciation of the concept, there has to be an emotional recognition for it to really hold some weight in one's mind.

Perhaps put another way, from a cognitive science perspective, most people won't seek therapy unless they've reached a point of crisis in their lives, before that some of the ideas that may be presented to them as a way to explain their behavior remain at the level of interesting ideas, but they don't attain utility as working models until the crisis throws them into chaos.

So, the observation has to be more than intellectual contemplation I think, there needs to be an emotional and even physiological component to this observation.

 

[Andrey]

Thanks for the replies.

One thing I've been doing since relapsing on certain habits that I tried with all my will and effort to abstain from is consciously acting on them while simultaneously attempting to be as aware as possible of the mechanicalness of it all. This has been challenging as I still unconsciously don't consider myself a machine. However, I have been attempting this experiment for less than a week now, and haven't made much progress. I keep forgetting to keep aware, so am trying to figure out what kind of an "alarm clock" I can set up for myself to remind myself constantly.

 

[iamthatis]

Thanks for the replies.

One thing I've been doing since relapsing on certain habits that I tried with all my will and effort to abstain from is consciously acting on them while simultaneously attempting to be as aware as possible of the mechanicalness of it all. This has been challenging as I still unconsciously don't consider myself a machine. However, I have been attempting this experiment for less than a week now, and haven't made much progress. I keep forgetting to keep aware, so am trying to figure out what kind of an "alarm clock" I can set up for myself to remind myself constantly.

I remember asking a friend of mine once: "Do you think it is possible to be fully aware for an entire day?" His answer was a good one. He said that awareness is a muscle that needs to be exercised. It takes time, but with practice it gets stronger and stronger. There's pain involved in the process, but as the C's said, "No pain, no gain."

I'd say that certain books have been the most incredible alarm clocks for me. I mentioned Inside the Criminal Mind and the last chapter of Beelzebub's Tales. Both of these texts sure helped me in coming to a realization of my own behaviour, which was actually quite harmful to myself and others. That's a key thing, I think - to read through books like these, and to take it very personally, using it as a lens to look at our own lives. On that note, there's also a really great piece by Mme de Salzmann's called the First Initiation that really doesn't hold anything back.

The First Initiation by Madame de Salzmann

Here's an important text often quoted: (french version , spanish version, german version) The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann: You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive...

cassiopaea.org

It also sounds like you're trying to quit a few habits all at once. Would you say that's accurate? If so, this can be very taxing for the system. It takes years for us to wire our neural circuits, and it can also take a pretty long time to re-wire them. Sometimes things can change miraculously over a short period of time, helped along by networking and input of Knowledge, but that's definitely not always the case. Quick fixes are rare, and I've found they only add unreasonable expectations to whatever I'm working on.

Depending on what you're doing, it may be more worthwhile to focus on just one thing at a time. It's been really helpful for me to start with small and attainable goals and move upwards from small successes. This builds faith and trust in your own abilities and generates positive emotion as you see yourself progress. Otherwise it all just seems hopeless or impossible. If you do relapse, it's good to be clear with yourself why it happened, but also to not dwell on it and keep your focus on who you want to be. Reading up about any particular habit and its affects on the body, heart and mind is also really important, too. There's often a handful of treatment plans ready to be experimented with, too.

 

[Wandering Star]

So I would like to ask this forum what are some ways one can truly KNOW that one is a machine.

Perhaps the mere fact that you ask this question is already a clue.

Can a machine ask that question?

I do not believe it.

What I believe is that there are many people who have had to work hard since they were children, to be able to be among the machines and survive.

It is inevitable that some of all that nonsense that gives meaning to the lives of the vast majority, has been integrated into us.

Now those people know a lot about this and have external consideration with purely mechanical people, since their programming is everything. The resistance to anything else or teaching is fierce and aggressive.

In short, it seems that a madman does not know or does not recognize that he is mad.

A mechanical person is the same, in my opinion.

 

[Menna]

Set a goal. Not something like make breakfast tomorrow but a long term goal that takes 6+ months to complete. Can you do things EVERYDAY to work toward accomplishing this goal. What takes you farther away, thoughts, emotions, codependency, narcissistic tendencies, addictions, procrastination… these and more make up your machine. If you have them. One has to create an “experiment” and journal or keep track by other means of the happenings to recognize then learn about your programs know them with your emotional and intellectual center and use your will to either eradicate or in a healthier way integrate them into the 4th way which is living in life

 

[Menna]

Thanks for the replies.

One thing I've been doing since relapsing on certain habits that I tried with all my will and effort to abstain from is consciously acting on them while simultaneously attempting to be as aware as possible of the mechanicalness of it all. This has been challenging as I still unconsciously don't consider myself a machine. However, I have been attempting this experiment for less than a week now, and haven't made much progress. I keep forgetting to keep aware, so am trying to figure out what kind of an "alarm clock" I can set up for myself to remind myself constantly.

An alarm clock can be simple like wearing your watch on your other hand and when it feels awkward you remember. When you enter or exit your house you stand still for some time and remember. When your car turns off you take time to remember. Use life triggers use things that are not usual and customary to your routine so that feeling off something is not usual is a trigger for self remembering

Or if you have a cell phone you can set an actual alarm the noise can trigger you to focus on your breath be in the now and think about your day …

After practicing EE I do know that my thoughts are not as chaotic the next day so if you are not that can help also

 

[Ryan]

So I would like to ask this forum what are some ways one can truly KNOW that one is a machine. How should we interpret the concept and what are the best avenues of research one might want to look into to truly understand the true nature of man?

It might be good to remember that Gurdjieff's materialism coloured his perspective. It's possible that he actually thought about the concept in literal terms, when it should be taken as a metaphor.

It's obvious even to children that human beings are not machines. Machines are machines. Lifeforms are of a different order of being, even if they have machine-like qualities or behaviours that can be explained well by that analogy. Whether one wants to be more or less mechanical, both options are certainly possible.

For those that truly wish to understand human nature, Luc has written an excellent article on his Substack site here which is well worth reading.

 

[Pecha]

In the literal term of machines, they are wired in a sense to fire off programs in response to an external signal or stimuli to do a certain action. In that sense, the entire body can be seen as one. Each cell is programmed to do its specific tasks, but if it gets wrong signals, it will not be able to potentially function at its max potential. On the flipside, keeping our body well-regulated can alleviate the stress that comes from our bodies and allow it to function as a cohesive and supportive piece of the entire being. One thing of note is that body processes are one of the factors that contribute to our ability to express emotions. Our bodies have limits, just as machines do. However there is a saying: "mind over body".

The other factor is the mind, which in addition to the body, is linked to consciousness, both conscious and unconscious (soul). Much of the work and aim is done on these levels, as we know that wrong expression of emotion at crucial times can make or break relationships, lower productivity, and other stuff. All these point to a sort of rigidity—a limitation of choices one can make. This rigidity also is what in part defines a machine—one that is relegated to a set amount of choices, waiting for stimuli to trigger them in mechanical fashion.

One way one can know that one is a machine is seeing your dynamic in everyday life. Are there negative relationship dynamics that constantly come up? At a deeper level: what stimuli causes us to react in a way that causes a negative outcome?

Even coming to the question of considering that one is a machine is a step towards self-realization and a broadening of your ability to see and to be.

With knowledge gathering and work comes more free-will, and a loosening of that rigidity. An opening of branching paths and horizons is available to those that continue that path.

From Session 9 September 1995:

Q: (L) Is it also correct that emotion can be used to mislead, that is emotions that are twisted and generated strictly from the flesh or false programming?

A: Emotion that limits is an impediment to progress. Emotion is also necessary to make progress in 3rd density. It is natural. When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density.

 

[marek760]

I think we are all machines until we become aware of our automatic responses and work to overcome that mechanization. Otherwise we will remain machines.

Yes,
I only need to look at myself as I was 10-20-30- 40 years ago to see the difference in the level of automatic actions and who I am today. Before that, I was completely unaware of my actions and they took place completely automatically, zero thinking or conscious reactions, everything was based on automatic emotional programs and actions based on "like, dislike."

Sometimes I wonder how I managed to survive those years of life in total darkness and automatism.

 

[Puma]

Sometimes I wonder how I managed to survive those years of life in total darkness and automatism.

Yes, that's right. There are also automatic cultural aspects. In Mexico, for example, people react automatically when the mother is mentioned with an insult. It is serious and the reaction is instilled in us from childhood. There are people who automatically react with violence and do not think about the consequences. Also in some communities theft is paid for with lynching. Here the mass of people act frantically.

This automatic state of people also allows them to be tele-directed as Giovanni Sartori mentioned in his work "Homo videns, the Tele-directed Society" where he discussed the influence of the media, (television and internet), on the masses. Now the image prevails over the word.

Sartori also mentioned that as a consequence of this teledirected society, what he called video-children were created: a new generation that has grown up with television and Internet as its first school, spending hours in front of it even before learning to read and write. An important characteristic of these children is that, being familiar with visual learning, they are restricted to being adults who are unaccustomed to reading and who respond almost exclusively to audiovisual stimuli. These video-children are now young people who have a different way of learning, also called 'millennials'.

The so-called millennials are the automation of the 21st century and they are certainly very willing to accept the cybernetic implants that will end up turning them and later generations into true automatons.

 

[Liliea]

what are some ways one can truly KNOW that one is a machine

I made a comment in the music thread, about Erik Satie's Vexations. What are you listening to? I had heard and seen repetitions of various kinds and how programmed people made serious mistakes over and over again. Well, that can be an exercise (if you like Satie's, although I suggest something of your own) for you to choose and discern when repetition becomes mechanical, when it becomes conscious, when you get tired of automatism and when you know what you are repeating actions for. We are all in constant loops and this can be a way to detect them and learn about oneself.