I do not know myself

[Joe]

From the book The reality of Being by Jeanne de Salzmann

"Who am I? If I do not know, what meaning does my life have? And what in me responds to life? So, I must try to answer, to see who I am. First, my thought steps back and brings suggestions about myself: I am a man or woman who can do this, who had done that, who possesses this and that. My thinking volunteers possible answers from all that it knows. But it does not know that I am, does not really know me in this moment. Then I turn to my feeling. It is among the centers most capable of knowing. Can it answer? My feeling is not free. It has to obey the "me" who wants to be the greatest, the most powerful and who suffers all the time from now being first. So, my feeling does not dare. It is afraid, or doubts. How can it know? Then, of course, there is my body, the capacity to sense my body. But am I my body?

In fact, I don't not know myself. I don not know what I am. I know neither my possibilities nor my limitations. I exist, yet I do not know how I am existing. I believe my actions are affirming my own existence. Yet I am always responding to life with only one part of myself. I react either emotionally or intellectually or physically. And it is never really "I" who responds. I also believe I am moving in the direction I want to go and that I can "do". But in fact I am acted upon, moved by forces that I know nothing about. Everything in me takes place, everything happens. The strings are pulled without my knowing. I do not see that I am like a puppet, a machine set in motion by influences from outside.

At the same time, I sense my life passing as if it were the life another person. I vaguely see myself being agitated, hoping, regretting, afraid, bored... all without feeling that I am taking part. Most of the time I act without knowing it and realise only afterwards that I said this or did that. It is as though my life unfolds without my conscious participation. It unfolds while I sleep. From time to time jolts or shocks awaken me for an instant. In the middle of an angry outburst, or grief or danger, I suddenly open my eyes - "What?...It's me, here, in this situation, living this." But after the shock, I go back to sleep, and a long time can pass before a new shock awakens me.

As my life passes I may begin to suspect that I am not what I believe. I am a being who is asleep, a being with no consciousness of himself. In this sleep I confuse intellect - the thought functioning independently from feeling - with intelligence, which includes the capacity to feel what is being reasoned. My functions - my thoughts, feelings and movements - work without direction, subject to random shocks and habits. It is the lowest state of being for man. I live in my own narrow, limited world commanded by associations from all my subjective impressions. This is a a prison to which I always return - my prison."

 

[Leo40]

Thanks for posting. This is truly a remarkable book.
I read some pages and meditate on the topic; the next day I read some more.
It is very helpful to understand what "working on oneself and observing oneself"
means in a practical way.

 

[Vulcan59]

Thanks for sharing an excerpt, Perceval. Looks like I'll have to order the book to read the rest. :)

 

[Tigersoap]

Thanks for posting it.
Many quotes in this book hit the nail really deep for me.
I don't know myself and that's for sure, it's a very scary thought and I go back and forth realizing this but most of the time I am not.
It should be a sobering thought for everyone ;)

 

[Cyre2067]

Deep quote. I found this bit especially relevant: "Everything in me takes place, everything happens. The strings are pulled without my knowing. I do not see that I am like a puppet, a machine set in motion by influences from outside."

 

[Zadius Sky]

Thanks for sharing, man.

I've just started reading this book today after finishing Taylor's Gurdjieff, but I'm taking my time with it as I'd like to focus on certain topic/passage to ponder on and reflect before bed.

 

[Buddy]

Hey Perceval.

I'm curious about that excerpt. I don't have access to the book, the table of contents or the context around this particular writing, so I was wondering about the contrast between the title of the book and what appears to be musings about disassociation. Is " I do not know myself " the title of the chapter or something?

Is Ms. Salzmann approaching an answer to the question "Who am I?" by process of elimination? Does she eventually 'define' herself to her satisfaction? Are these silly questions?


-------------
Edit: clarity

 

[Joe]

Hey Perceval.

I'm curious about that excerpt. I don't have access to the book, the table of contents or the context around this particular writing, so I was wondering about the contrast between the title of the book and what appears to be musings about disassociation. Is " I do not know myself " the title of the chapter or something?

Is Ms. Salzmann approaching an answer to the question "Who am I?" by process of elimination? Does she eventually 'define' herself to her satisfaction? Are these silly questions?


-------------
Edit: clarity

Do you know who Jeanne de Salzmann is?

 

[Buddy]

Do you know who Jeanne de Salzmann is?

Yep :), I was just wondering about this excerpt, since I thought the First Initiation was quite complete in that regard. I've read about her but nothing else that she wrote, fwiw.


Added later: So, I was just wondering more about the book, that's all.

 

[mamadrama]

Hi, Bud.

I just started reading this book so I'm sure others can give you a deeper perspective but to answer your organizational question, the first section of the book is titled, "A Call to Consciousness." The first chapter in this section is titled, "I am Asleep" and contains musings and writings such as 1. A nostalgia for Being, 2. The lifeforce, 3. I do not know myself (from which Perceval has quoted) and 4. "I" am not here.

I see a connection between the First Initiation and the excerpt that Perceval has quoted, both encouraging the student/reader to consider that they do not know themselves. Maybe you could explain the dissociation you're seeing a little more fully?

 

[Buddy]

Hi, Bud.

I just started reading this book so I'm sure others can give you a deeper perspective but to answer your organizational question, the first section of the book is titled, "A Call to Consciousness." The first chapter in this section is titled, "I am Asleep" and contains musings and writings such as 1. A nostalgia for Being, 2. The lifeforce, 3. I do not know myself (from which Perceval has quoted) and 4. "I" am not here.

I see a connection between the First Initiation and the excerpt that Perceval has quoted, both encouraging the student/reader to consider that they do not know themselves. Maybe you could explain the dissociation you're seeing a little more fully?

Thanks Black Swan. I'm aware of my tendency to only understand something superficially unless I have the full context around something, which includes the info I asked about.

The comment about "what appears to be musings about disassociation" referred to statements such as:

I sense my life passing as if it were the life another person. I vaguely see myself being agitated, hoping, regretting, afraid, bored... all without feeling that I am taking part. Most of the time I act without knowing it and realise only afterwards that I said this or did that.

..which I tend to interpret as descriptive of that state. But I could be mistaken...which is why I asked about it.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Do you know who Jeanne de Salzmann is?

Yep :), I was just wondering about this excerpt, since I thought the First Initiation was quite complete in that regard. I've read about her but nothing else that she wrote, fwiw.

Just a note that the first initiation is actually a transcription of a talk given by Gurdjieff in Paris. Needleman incorrectly attributed it to Salzmann in a previous book but corrected it in his most recent (The Inner Journey).

 

[Buddy]

Just a note that the first initiation is actually a transcription of a talk given by Gurdjieff in Paris. Needleman incorrectly attributed it to Salzmann in a previous book but corrected it in his most recent (The Inner Journey).

Ahh..OK, thanks for that, AI. :)

 

[Keit]

The comment about "what appears to be musings about disassociation" referred to statements such as:

I sense my life passing as if it were the life another person. I vaguely see myself being agitated, hoping, regretting, afraid, bored... all without feeling that I am taking part. Most of the time I act without knowing it and realise only afterwards that I said this or did that.

..which I tend to interpret as descriptive of that state. But I could be mistaken...which is why I asked about it.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

I think that Jeanne de Salzmann observes and describes the inner division:

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself. [...]

You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

 

[anart]

Do you know who Jeanne de Salzmann is?

Yep :), I was just wondering about this excerpt, since I thought the First Initiation was quite complete in that regard. I've read about her but nothing else that she wrote, fwiw.

Just a note that the first initiation is actually a transcription of a talk given by Gurdjieff in Paris. Needleman incorrectly attributed it to Salzmann in a previous book but corrected it in his most recent (The Inner Journey).

Just fyi - the Gurdjieff organization still attributes it to Mme de Salzmann.