Identification

[Biomiast]

Hi to all,

I am not sure if I am using this word correctly or just confusing terminology, but this is what seems to be the program behind everything I do in my life. I have decided to share it and if anyone has advice or direct me to some reference material related to subject, it is highly appreciated.

When I do something(doesn't matter what it is, it can be a post here, it can be a conversation, it can be the work I do) I need immediate approval of other people and when I don't get that approval, I feel like they judge me and deem me unworthy. My whole character, my personality, my work, it all means nothing to them.

If I am talking to someone and if I can't be entertaining in that talk, I feel like nothing, and I try to adjust my jokes or talks according to this person, just to make him/her laugh. As I write this, I can't believe how I can do such a thing, but this happens in almost every interaction I have. I began to wonder if I have anything real in me or all of it is mimicking or pretending.

Right now, I am applying for a PhD position abroad and I write application letters to professors. When I applied before a few years ago, I didn't do any real research and work and it was no wonder I didn't obtain anything. So this year, I worked and studied very hard, I published a scientific article, wrote a good e-mail and a Statement of Purpose. Yet, I still don't get any responses from the people I have written. Now, there may be various reasons for this, and intellectually I can list them, but when this happens, I feel like these people have rejected my efforts, my work from the past years and my personality.

This feeling ends up forming a lack of faith in the Universe because whenever something that I don't like happens, I feel like I have been abandoned by the Universe. Or if I have put some effort into something, I have to see the results immediately, otherwise I feel that all the things I have done is for nothing.

Nowadays, I was thinking about receiving something from someone as opposed to giving and clearly, I always want to be on receiving side.

I have read Glossary and Gurdjieff about this subject, and while these provide the theory, I couldn't find and practical reference on how to deal with this. So any help is appreciated.

 

[Leo40]

To be identified with one's work can be very dangerous. Of course this is a matter of degree.
If a person derives all their selfworth from their work they will usually die shortly after
retirement.
Also identification tends to limit your focus. Example: when such a person is laid off work
they feel useless and often don't even consider other possibilities, i.e. retraining or
learning something else.
Further, to protect yourself from undue strees it is essential to detach yourself from the
work you are doing.
My 2 cents.

 

[Nienna]

Biomast, I think that you have other programs running along with the Identification program. But we all do so you are not alone.

You feeling worthless and needing validation in everything you do sound fairly normal to me. Unfortunately, this is the programming most of us has ended up getting, along with a lot of other stuff.

I would like to suggest you read the Narcissism Big 5 books. If you already have, read them again. Remember to apply what you read to yourself and how you and your family interacted with each other. This will help you to see how these programs were started in the first place, and how to get them under control.

And it will not come easy. It takes work. But the first step is to understand the whole process and how it started.

 

[Gaby]

Hi Biomast,

The recommended psychology books on narcissism are of enormous help. But I would recommend also that you set the time aside to participate more often in this forum. It is after all, one of the safest environments to overcome this program. You'll have mixed feelings, but with constant efforts in order to have conscious input from your part, you can arrive to the understanding at an emotional level that this is not a forum who is judging you or out to get you or undervaluing you.

If you network with the spirit of curiosity and learning, you'll enjoy the process a lot more. Drive your research by curiosity and participate more often. See how it goes. Nothing you post has to be perfect. If you feel miserable, write about it in your journal and review something from the recommended psychology books on narcissism. You can also write quotes of those books in your journal, as if it is coming from a part of you that is giving the bigger picture and the right context into your situation. It helps to consolidate the knowledge at a deeper level and it engages your prefrontal cortex (the captain of your brain which can have a bird's view on something) in the emotional experience. You'll be surprised to see how often you stumble upon the right quote that was needed for that particular moment. And by networking more while constantly adding efforts to acquire more knowledge about yourself and the Universe, you might find that your problems at work ease up as well. It is like giving a statement to the Universe that you're choosing the path of creativity instead of the one where you feel helpless because of your self wounds.

I did noticed you stopped posting. Did it had to do with this program you are bringing up? We have been reviewing a lot of subjects that might be of great interest to you. Polyvagal theory for example. Don't miss all the fun! :)

Here are the top 5 recommended psychology books:

Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
In Sheep's Clothing - George K. Simon

Children of Trauma by Middleton-Moz is also pretty good and a short read. I noticed we don't have it in the recommended books.

 

[Biomiast]

Thanks to all for the answers.

Also identification tends to limit your focus. Example: when such a person is laid off work
they feel useless and often don't even consider other possibilities, i.e. retraining or
learning something else.

I have seen this to be true. I usually try to be open to new possibilities in my work, but when I encounter "failures" as I see them, I tend to give up and divert my energy to some other place, in other words I try to escape from the work I should be doing not to see another failure.

Biomast, I think that you have other programs running along with the Identification program. But we all do so you are not alone.

You feeling worthless and needing validation in everything you do sound fairly normal to me. Unfortunately, this is the programming most of us has ended up getting, along with a lot of other stuff.

Thanks Nienna. I know other programs are there but this seemed to me the primal cause. Yet, when I think about it now, I remember this program was present in many of us. I have read Big 5, but it has been a while, so I should read it again I suppose. I think there was something about this in Trapped in the Mirror.

But I would recommend also that you set the time aside to participate more often in this forum. It is after all, one of the safest environments to overcome this program. You'll have mixed feelings, but with constant efforts in order to have conscious input from your part, you can arrive to the understanding at an emotional level that this is not a forum who is judging you or out to get you or undervaluing you.

Thank you for your comments. When one sees something everywhere, he/she often projects it here, yet I know this place is different. Sometimes I feel isolated from rest of you maybe because I am a little far away and I can't join festivals or conferences. Childish, I know but...

I did noticed you stopped posting. Did it had to do with this program you are bringing up? We have been reviewing a lot of subjects that might be of great interest to you. Polyvagal theory for example. Don't miss all the fun! :)

Not directly, I think. It was mainly that I shared all I can about my life, and as a result I thought I have resolved my childhood issues and I can deal with anything I will encounter in the future. So I overestimated myself. In the end, I couldn't find anything worth talking about, and it became a habit not to look or write anything. When I think about it, it was plain stupidity, thinking that I have this kind of discerment. But I can see now how important a network is.

Polyvagal theory seems interesting, I will take a look into it and see if there is any molecular connection.

Thanks again, I already feel better. :)

 

[Buddy]

I am not sure if I am using this word correctly or just confusing terminology, but this is what seems to be the program behind everything I do in my life. I have decided to share it and if anyone has advice or direct me to some reference material related to subject, it is highly appreciated.

Hi Biomiast . I can't recommend the High road vs Low road of the online wave high enough if you can benefit from it. One of the main ideas explored is how our observations and inferences are automatically made on the basis of resemblances, making 'identification' practically inevitable.

The other main idea is that a deliberate act of will and some effort is required to activate the part of the PFC that differentiates one element from another in our present circumstance - as well as differentiating between what is present now vs what was present in past scenarios that may resemble the present one, if only in 'feeling' terms.

So, if you make this effort, you can widen the information highway that is feeding back into the brain right now - rewiring the brain.

Since attention on something opens space between you and it, this is how to pull yourself out of something so you're no longer identified with it. It's about the only way I know.

If you do this process enough in the present moment, you might even 'forget' what was bothering you! And if you practice this until it becomes habit, re-wiring the brain will become the path of least resistance!

When I do something(doesn't matter what it is, it can be a post here, it can be a conversation, it can be the work I do) I need immediate approval of other people and when I don't get that approval, I feel like they judge me and deem me unworthy. My whole character, my personality, my work, it all means nothing to them.

If I am talking to someone and if I can't be entertaining in that talk, I feel like nothing, and I try to adjust my jokes or talks according to this person, just to make him/her laugh. As I write this, I can't believe how I can do such a thing, but this happens in almost every interaction I have. I began to wonder if I have anything real in me or all of it is mimicking or pretending.

Is the problem really with not getting other's approval, or is it that YOU don't approve of how the feedback or lack thereof affects you? One of those options the Work can help you with. :)

 

[psychic_spy]

I guess I have the same problem as Biomast but recently i observed i can control it by not telling people all about my ideas, feelings in order to receive their approval and validation. In many instances they disagree or are indifferent because they are like that, indifferent and mechanical beings or they really think about something else that's important for them at that time.
If you have also read Ouspenski's The Fourth Way maybe you came in contact with the idea that you have to consider people only externally , not internally. That means that you don't have to take things to heart and make inner considerations on the basis that people do not respond to you. Just be polite and attentive with people.
Many people are not at the same level like you, not the same polarity, their centres function differently... If you make an effort in a conversation to just watch a bit, observe, be more silent you'll see things that normally don't catch your attention when you try to make your interlocutor laugh or respond to you.
I once decided to behave differently with a collegue at the university who was rather aloof and taciturn in my presence while i was always trying to compensate for a lack of fluidity in a conversation, making jokes , talking excessively about my personal life. For some instants i felt awkward because i',m self conscious but i continued to refrain from talking in my usual way, look around or just observing my collegue without talking and i could see very clearly why she didn't talk, i could read her state at that moment and understand her motives for being silent. ( she had a family problem that she disclosed later after we got used to each other better)
So it had nothing to do with me. Any many times people are like that, are preoccupied by a lot other personal stuff then their interlocutors. There are also times when people are paying attention to you and of course form a certain opionion ( which may not be to your advantaje) but that is their problem because they consider things internally owing to their misconception about things.

 

[Biomiast]

Thanks Bud and psychic_spy for the answers :)

Hi Biomiast . I can't recommend the High road vs Low road of the online wave high enough if you can benefit from it. One of the main ideas explored is how our observations and inferences are automatically made on the basis of resemblances, making 'identification' practically inevitable.

It is my favourite chapter Bud, thank you for reminding it. I forgot how brain chemistry is involved in everything we do, I simply considered it from a psychological perspective which is not enough. Your post made me think that I am addicted to this approval from others. I can't remember anything specific from my childhood, but as a boy, my family always enjoyed if I said something that is funny or if I behaved as they like, I wouldn't cause too much trouble to them and I always waited patiently as they say.

Right now I am reading Drama of the Gifted Children and Myth of Sanity. They mention how a child behaves the way his/her parents want because they fear abandonment, and all of this is sweeped into unconscious since a child's mind can not withstand this fear. Yet, he/she behaves mechanically to get his/her parents approval, but the "parents" becomes all the people in his/her life. That sounds fairly similar to what I feel and what I have been through.

I guess I have the same problem as Biomast but recently i observed i can control it by not telling people all about my ideas, feelings in order to receive their approval and validation. In many instances they disagree or are indifferent because they are like that, indifferent and mechanical beings or they really think about something else that's important for them at that time.

It is a good exercise to observe and stop yourself. Today, I was able to observe myself, but the part that asks me to stop is not very powerful. I'll stick with the observation for a while to recognize this false personality more.

If you have also read Ouspenski's The Fourth Way maybe you came in contact with the idea that you have to consider people only externally , not internally. That means that you don't have to take things to heart and make inner considerations on the basis that people do not respond to you. Just be polite and attentive with people.

I have read In Search of the Miraculous and I am familiar with the concept of internal consideration. But doing it in everyday life is a quite challenging thing.

I once decided to behave differently with a collegue at the university who was rather aloof and taciturn in my presence while i was always trying to compensate for a lack of fluidity in a conversation, making jokes , talking excessively about my personal life. For some instants i felt awkward because i',m self conscious but i continued to refrain from talking in my usual way, look around or just observing my collegue without talking and i could see very clearly why she didn't talk, i could read her state at that moment and understand her motives for being silent. ( she had a family problem that she disclosed later after we got used to each other better)

This is a very good example about observing first and external consideration, thank you for sharing it.

 

[psychic_spy]

Thanks Bud and psychic_spy for the answers :)

I can't remember anything specific from my childhood, but as a boy, my family always enjoyed if I said something that is funny or if I behaved as they like, I wouldn't cause too much trouble to them and I always waited patiently as they say.

Right now I am reading Drama of the Gifted Children and Myth of Sanity. They mention how a child behaves the way his/her parents want because they fear abandonment, and all of this is sweeped into unconscious since a child's mind can not withstand this fear. Yet, he/she behaves mechanically to get his/her parents approval, but the "parents" becomes all the people in his/her life. That sounds fairly similar to what I feel and what I have been through. .

You're welcome Biomast. This is also something that came to me as well. In my early years i was a great delight to my parents and my grandparents when i used to sing and say funny things, mostly to my father who was very proud to see me so flamboyant.But after 4 years old i became the opposite and my dad grew disappointed in me. My mother also was very carefull to educate me to behave nicely with those that came to our house or to other children. In time i have overdone this and i also became self- conscious and fearfull that people won't like me or won't include me if i don't submit to their wishes. At certain times i even started to get annoyed with my own attitude and research ways to change it. I hope that what i've read so far with be of much help.

 

[Graalsword]

What you said that is happening to you, Biomast, is one of my "favourite"-so to say- psychological issues. As it is one of the most common and normal ones in many people, including me. Some time ago, through reading the recommended books, I realized that I always tried to find the approval of certain people I highly esteemed. Certain friends, acquaintances, I realized that they were replacing my parents, as my parents were no longer highly esteemed by me but rather hated because of clashing heavily with them through all teens years.

On a lesser extent also needed the approval of others less esteemed. Bud gave you a very good advice on how to gradually get rid of it. It is not easy. The important thing is that you now are aware that you have been running these programs, so now you can stop yourself when it is starting running again, and do something different altogether.

Funny right now I am realizing that I have been seeking the approval of others when writing music, as I am recording a demo CD with my band.

 

[beetlemaniac]

This has also been an issue which has long plagued me as well. It seemed to revolve around the conceptions I was made to have about myself and how the expectations of parents and teachers had 'nurtured' and ingrained these conceptions. They continued on in my psyche as the Negative Introject from Trapped in the Mirror (I only understood this after reading the book a long time after my first read through). I guess the NI is what's giving you this lack of faith? But anyway, all the suggestions here are probably more than enough guidance but more never hurts. So here's a quote from an amazing post by Laura that really helped me see things clearly:

This brings me to Robbie Burns wonderful little poem: "To A Louse On seeing one on a Lady's bonnet at Church."

When we read this little masterpiece, we can almost see the louse crawling in the unconscious lady's bonnet, a lady we are brought to understand gives herself some airs and her illusions of grandeur are crawling with lice.

Burns inserts a bit of social satire in the piece with the exaggerated indignation he uses to describe the contrast between the vulgarity of the louse and the social pretensions of the lady. Burns outrage is actually mockery of the lady herself which we learn when he suddenly drops his pose of disturbed onlooker and names the lady, a simple country girl: Jenny. At this point, his remarks become somewhat pitying because he is telling us something very deep about that part of her that could be real and not pretentious and self-righteous, but how difficult it is to awaken it:

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us
An' ev'n Devotion.

For those of you who might have trouble translating this dialect, it is simply saying that the gift of being able to see ourselves as others see us would save us from many errors and foolish thoughts and ridiculous behavior, and we would most certainly cease being devoted to those things that shore up and support our illusions about ourselves which perpetuate the absurd personality that we think is really our true self.

As ya'll know, we often refer to this as "the predator" but what we really mean is the whole gamut of "automatic programs" and "learned behaviors" and "knee jerk responses" that we are all heir to as a consequence of our upbringing, social pressures, trying to please others in order to survive, and so on.

So the things that you value quoted below could be related to what the girl Jenny from the poem also had about herself:

When I do something(doesn't matter what it is, it can be a post here, it can be a conversation, it can be the work I do) I need immediate approval of other people and when I don't get that approval, I feel like they judge me and deem me unworthy. My whole character, my personality, my work, it all means nothing to them.

It may be painful to read and attribute it to yourself but it sure is worth it! Laura really makes some astounding connections throughout the whole post which as I said earlier, really helped hammer in the points I needed to know. Here's another nice quote, something to bring you closer to yourself:

What people need to understand is that the so-called Personality is a construct of your reactions to your experiences, most of which were manipulative, unpleasant and/or negative. And that means the whole thing - your entire concept of yourself and all your ways and means of perceiving, evaluating, and reacting to the world out there and inside are nothing but a set of programmed circuits that run automatically.

Once you can accept that, fully and deeply, and begin to examine your life from as far back as you can remember, look at every detail, how everything you are, everything that you learned to be in that "school of the world" that puts you inside a manipulating shell, having to play games with yourself and others in order to get your needs met, or to assuage that fear of not being love, of being abandoned, of dying; if you can look at it, then perhaps, somewhere in there you will find the original self, a self that had dreams of BEing yourself, supported fully by the universe, and what that self might be.

So, coming back to the original point: you need to realize that what you are battling is not "yourself" except in the sense that you are battling the shell that has been created by your life experiences, and that was all built on the foundation of how you were treated as an infant and child. It is all a construct built up to protect that child that was terrified of being hungry, abandoned, unloved; and generally, it has nothing to do at all with the real YOU.

The link to the whole post is on top of the quote boxes. I'm going to read it again too because it's just so revealing, and it connects Fourth Way ideas to the whole thing as well. Beautiful. I hope this helps and if I've gone too far left please let me know!

 

[Voyageur]

Hi Biomiast, noticed your post and these things seem at different times of our growth, such as you speak, the inner and outer interactions at play on many of us. In addition to what ripples forth from families or hidden traumas of many of the books mentioned here, is this often quoted, which you have likely read, is the 'The First Initiation' by Mme de Salzman.

For me anyway, it is a good reminder of where our human condition can spring forth from or fall back into, or for some, never realizing that one conforms to this thinking, even in part, and continuously carries on without seeing/hearing.

Fwiw, not anticipating helps and so, too does EE. Good fortune to you in what lies ahead :)

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self- knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures-talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see-I see myself-by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others-lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions-lies. Your teaching-lies. Your theories, your art-lies. Your social life, your family life-lies. And what you think of yourself-lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.
You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.