I’m really struggling with this… Was Gurdjieff an OP?

Racer_Unknown

The Force is Strong With This One
First of all, I must say that some of the recommended threads I’ve been reading show an amazing insight into the nature of the human mind’s programs, the ego and its defense mechanisms, buffers, etc. What’s more, it’s impressive to see how far the interaction will go among those involved in a discussion so that points made are understood by the group discussing them. I must say that I like how you guys “think.” You’re great thinkers. (And of course, “doers” as well.)

Now in reading various threads of The Work – going over some of the glossary (magnetic center, organic portals, soul/astral body, etc) and also going over bits of the C’s transcripts quoted in the posts relating to these particular subjects – a couple of 'conflicts' have surfaced. Please bear with me.

From what I’ve been reading, it seems to me – and please don’t view my question in any negative light, I don’t mean any disrespect – and please correct me if I’m wrong – that Gurdjieff’s teachings are only meant for – and therefore resonate with – those that might be Organic Portals – but, of course, those OP’s that have either a ‘soul seed/imprint’ or ‘soul potential.’ As something inside them drives them, it seems to me, to seek to ‘grow’ or develop an ‘astral body’ to escape being recycled back into another cycle of the Human Experience, perhaps for an entire master cycle.

But then, following what Gurdjieff says about most people not having a soul then, by that very statement (and logic), it should be assumed that “somehow” some folks do have a soul/are born with them.

On the thread: Gurdjieff and the question of the soul (http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6399) Laura shares an article as part of the discussion (http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/mevlevi-vs-gurdjieffism.html ) from which I highlight:

“…the true goal of the spiritual seeker is to find a way to escape the "prison of matter" and the "sub-
lunar" world and reach salvation in the "Realm of Light" [the Pleroma].”

Now at the beginning of the passage quoted above, the line states that “the true goal of the spiritual seeker…” However, it should read, given my understanding of what it is that’s being discussed, I think, that the “the true goal of the Organic Portal with *soul potential* is to find a way….” Am I wrong for making this ‘assumption’?

How about those individuals that somehow ‘already have a soul,’ (not “might,” as then the point is missed) say, folks like Ingo Swann and Robert Monroe? What happens to them in relation to or when exposed to Gurdjieff and the Work? What benefit may they derive from it if they already have a soul is what I mean to ask. (These two individuals are used as examples to pose my question by the way simply because I assume that both Monroe & Swann have ‘souls’ based on their descriptions (on their books and interviews) of “detaching” from the physical body and “stepping outside of it” to watch it lying in bed for instance while they are in some sort of “shimmery” and “ethereal body,” which in turn they use to travel to other realities and do what they do. Swann in fact states (in the DVD series Remote Viewing Through Time & Space) that since the age of two or three he was able to *leave his body* when he went to sleep and fly out the window to go out and play with his friends.” (Obviously the 'playing' took place in another reality accessed during the dream state.). I have used these two men as examples also because they have both worked with people and made contributions (as in STO) to the humans: Swann by way of his books and developing the RV protocol, while Monroe developed the Hemi-Synch technology, The Monroe Institute, and also 3 books, *about* some of the things the soul (or at least, “astral body”) is capable of doing.)

In continuing the thread about Gurdjieff and the soul and from the quoted article cited by Laura earlier:

However, only a tiny minority called "pneumatics" had souls which could survive death and return to
the Realm of Light. Some, called "psychics" had the potential to develop such a soul. The great majority of
humanity were called "hylics," and had no hope of survival after death.”


(“Hylics” are most probably OP’s with no soul imprint/potential (these are called “minion incarnations” in Matrix 5 terminology). While “pneumatics” are “souled” beings – those with a Higher Self. I don’t think this is inaccurate? (As a little aside, when I’ve shared this idea with people – so called spiritual seekers – some of them react in anger saying that said concept – of souled beings and OP’s (without soul potential) – proposes that at least some humans are akin to “animals” and is no different than some organized religions in their claims that “they” are “god’s chosen” while other humans are akin to animals and lower life forms. Which in turn enables their killing in large numbers (as in wars). Interestingly, the same reaction is gotten when mentioning “psychopaths.” I mean, I do see people’s point of there being potential problems with distinguishing or rather labeling various “species of consciousness” but… reacting in anger to said concepts probably means that the truth – for some reason – hurts? Hmm.)

In further thinking about this, I did a small search about a concept I recall reading in one of Ra’s books (don’t have my book collection with me at the moment as they are in storage in another country) about what appeared to be – what they were describing – souled beings with a Higher Self (perhaps one of many “consciousness species” – this one a species that's multidimensional in nature) and found:

_http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?category=Wanderers&sc=1&ss=0

Questioner: You spoke of Wanderers. Who are Wanderers? Where do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Imagine, if you will, the sands of your shores. As countless as the grains of sand are the
sources of intelligent infinity. When a social memory complex has achieved its complete understanding of
its desire, it may conclude that its desire is service to others with the distortion towards reaching their
hand, figuratively, to any entities who call for aid. These entities whom you may call the Brothers and
Sisters of Sorrow move toward this calling of sorrow. These entities are from all reaches of the infinite
creation and are bound together by the desire to serve in this distortion.

12.27 Questioner: How many of them are incarnate on Earth now?

Ra: I am Ra. The number is approximate due to an heavy influx of those birthed at this time due to an
intensive need to lighten the planetary vibration and thus aid in harvest. The number approaches sixty-
five million.

12.28 Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? Or what density do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them,
are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind
and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery [the “Fool” archetype, I wonder?], depending upon
your distortion complex judgment.
The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its
mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom of which it had incarnated
to avert the destruction.

Interestingly (and synchronistically perhaps?) while looking further into this, I also found a discussion of various meditation techniques focusing on the “inner sound” or “current stream” such as Eckankar (http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1936). This immediately caught my attention, as Eckankar is one of the many ‘spiritual paths’ out there and one I have researched. So I decided to quickly take a look at what was doing on their web site as of late.

Sure, it “sounded” like many other New Age web sites/teachings. But with one *important distinction:* just as Gurdjieff “assumed” that most (or all?) people don’t have souls (therefore are OP’s), Harold Klemp, “spiritual leader” of Eckankar speaks to *initiates* as though they are souled/higher “multidimensional” beings. (Could this be an instance of "like attracts like," I wonder?) (And let me add here briefly that sure MOST "love & light-ers" (or "lightsiders" in Matrix 5 terms) and their organizations speak as if having a soul but Eckankar is the real deal.) Indeed. From my understanding now on various matters – having read the Seth, RA, Pleidian and Cassiopaean material, and also from what I know about Eckankar's program, this man, Harold Klemp, has got to be some sort of “higher density being” incarnated in 3D, as he has the ability to go into initiates’ bedrooms at night and help them consciously “leave or detach from the body” and shows them their (“already made”) ‘astral body.’ Initiates then literally “float up and through the ceiling” and into other realities where they interact with “spiritual teachers” in what are called “Temples of Wisdom.” Klemp although married and sporting a receding hairline, is actually very androgynous and even alien looking (as in “thin and lanky/long")....” Here’s a 2 min. video I found on the site in which Harold Klemp (or “Wah Z,” as he is known in the ‘out of body state’ to his students) addresses Eckankar initiates (again, supposedly souled beings):

_http://cache.eckankar.org/windows/HU-Most-Beautiful-Prayer_dreams.wmv

Now given what I've found and shared, my question is, and since some or many of you are experienced “Gurdjieffian" teachers, what do you think Gurdjieff would have done if he’d met a souled being in his classes? What I mean to ask is, would a souled being derive anything from his teachings even though they are to be used to help grow a soul/astral body?

Is that really THE goal of the Work and of “fusing the magnetic center”? Or is there “more?”

And could the phrase “in search for the miraculous" be a search or quest to find or rather "get" a soul... to then... what? perform "miracles" other than being able to leave the Human Experiece at the end of a master cycle or a shorter cycle?
 
Racer_Unknown said:
Now in reading various threads of The Work – going over some of the glossary (magnetic center, organic portals, soul/astral body, etc) and also going over bits of the C’s transcripts quoted in the posts relating to these particular subjects – a couple of 'conflicts' have surfaced.
You have identified the problem behind your miscomprehension right there. You have not been reading and studying the material in a systematic, linear manner, within its original context -- but rather are relying on "bits" picked up here and there, in other people's conversations. This is dense subject matter, one that does not lend itself to an "ad hoc" approach.

I suggest that you begin by reading (in its totality, several times over) the QFS article Organic Portals: The "Other" Race. Then go over the questions and theories presented in your own post in relation to that article. The various ways in which you are misunderstanding the "Organic Portal" concept should become readily apparent.
 
I am not one of the teachers you are calling out for, but some of your questions have a simple answer, I think.

What I have gotten out of reading some of G's texts is, that people shouldn't feel more important than others because they think they have a soul, and that implementing the teachings helps both those with a soul and those with the potential (which to me reads as everyone, only not everyone is interested in this quest). Also if you do have a soul and choose to do nothing with it, then so what? - then you too can go into recycling again.. The only advantage a souled being might have is that it might be easier to see where the need for help is..?
 
I’m really struggling with this… Was Gurdjieff an OP?

From the glossary entry for "soul": "Even within 4th Way writings the concept of soul does not quite have a fixed meaning."
 
An crude attempt at a definition of "soul"

Most "spiritual teachers" seem to take it as a given that everything has a soul. What does this really mean? There are obvious differences between the levels of being in the universe. QFS calls these divisions "densities" of being, or consciousness, the lower levels being more 'dense' physically, less 'free', more rigid in structure, etc. Minerals do not possess intellect or emotion, but they do move and 'grow'. So perhaps at this level, the soul is that which 'moves' its possessor. It "disposes and directs" the "movement" of the being. Movement is purely physical at this level. However, with the addition of emotional and intellectual functions, there are more degrees of freedom and even different kinds of movement.

In the case of humans, we grow physically, as do minerals and lower animal and plant forms; we also control our own movement, as do animals. But here things get a bit more complex. What controls this seemingly "self-directed" movement? In most cases, it is basic biological drives. Food motivates us to move toward it, as does sex, comfort, etc. In this sense we have many "I's", many "wills", many "souls", many "disposing and directing centers", which depend on which is stimulated at a given moment. "Will" is simply whichever drive is active, and it can change in the next instant. So perhaps we can say that the soul of 1st density is simply one of slow physical growth. Numerous and varied other disposing and directed centers are added at higher levels of being. There are emotional, instinctive, and culturally conditioned centers at the level of the average human.

But what differentiates a human 'soul' from an animal 'soul'? Animals are directed by primitive drives, as are humans. Humans just have an intellect that is used in service of these drives (examples of these instincts/drives are self-preservation, sex, aggression, eating, etc.). So because we seem have all the parts that animals do, we must have "animal souls". In this sense, all humans do have a soul, but it is an animal soul; one on a low level that disposes and directs the behavior towards to satisfaction of egoistic drives.

But surely there must be a "human" soul! If there is, it is obvious based on observation that not all humans possess such a "human" soul. They possess the "souls" of animals, with human intellect. But there does seem to be the possibility to develop a disposing and directing center on a high level. This is where the idea of uniquely "human" "movement" comes in. Humans not only have the ability to grow and move, we have the ability to approach higher levels of being consciously; to "choose" which influences to accept and reject in our external and internal environment.

By rejecting lower wills we gain a higher will. There is a point where a magnetic center develops, a unified disposing and directing center from which a highly developed human lives a fully conscious, self-directed, self-controlled, autonomous life. The body ceases to "react", to be controlled by lower "souls", and those parts which are animalistic (the "predator", the "inner dog", etc.). Only at this level can it be said that a truly human soul exists. And there are few humans who approach this ideal.

I do not know, nor do I really care, where the "astral" body fits into all this. I would presume that the highest level of development would include an "astral" body, but the astral body does not imply the existence of a high level disposing and directing center.
 
I think your confusion arises from a misunderstanding of the concept of OP. Organic Portals aren't the ones with "soul potential" they are defined as those without "soul potential."

The whole point of the "soul potential" concept is that it explains how most of us act like OP's but some differ by having the possibility of growing a soul.



Racer_Unknown said:
From what I’ve been reading, it seems to me – and please don’t view my question in any negative light, I don’t mean any disrespect – and please correct me if I’m wrong – that Gurdjieff’s teachings are only meant for – and therefore resonate with – those that might be Organic Portals – but, of course, those OP’s that have either a ‘soul seed/imprint’ or ‘soul potential.’ As something inside them drives them, it seems to me, to seek to ‘grow’ or develop an ‘astral body’ to escape being recycled back into another cycle of the Human Experience, perhaps for an entire master cycle.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the C's said that an OP never seem to "get it" when it comes to esoteric matters and higher knowledge, if this is true I think it's highy unlikely if Gurdjieff was an OP. Also, would an OP be attracted to this kind of Work in the first place?
 
I’m really struggling with this… Was Gurdjieff an OP?

Racer_Unknown said:
What I mean to ask is, would a souled being derive anything from his teachings even though they are to be used to help grow a soul/astral body?

Is that really THE goal of the Work and of “fusing the magnetic center”? Or is there “more?”

And could the phrase “in search for the miraculous" be a search or quest to find or rather "get" a soul... to then... what? perform "miracles" other than being able to leave the Human Experiece at the end of a master cycle or a shorter cycle?
First and foremost you must must realize that you are asleep, that you are food for something else that wants you trapped, and how you mechanically go thru life at pretty much the same level of consciousness as your physical body (“the sleeping machine”). People go thru life working jobs, raising families, developing all kinds of theories and “meditations” in a state of waking sleep. Nothing, or very little, is learned about reality by direct perception (both inwardly and outwardly) and people live in a dream of wishful thinking their entire lives. They may wake up for a moment from “accidental shocks” but they fall right back into a waking sleep due to the lack of inner unity of their psychological states. You must see this within yourself.

And when dreaming people die, then it stands to reason that they will dream in the next world as they have dreamed in this world. The waking process starts with “waking up” the body (or “spiritualizing it with awareness”) so that it can serve its function as an alchemical transformational apparatus (assuming it has this potential) for the transformation of Being.

But you must feel the true shock and terror of seeing the reality of your automatic sleeping machine and how it believes itself to be the driver when it is nothing more then a carriage and how this delusion has affected your entire life. It all begins with the shock of this inner realization and the courage to face it and then taking a stand to actually do something about it so you can escape this prison. Otherwise any talk of OP’s, souled beings, astral bodies and whatnot will fall into the realms of imaginary work with no real attention given to direct perception of "reality as it is" on all its levels of context.
 
Racer_Unknown said:
and please correct me if I’m wrong – that Gurdjieff’s teachings are only meant for – and therefore resonate with – those that might be Organic Portals – but, of course, those OP’s that have either a ‘soul seed/imprint’ or ‘soul potential.’
This one is easy. You are wrong, because the working definition of OP's are those individuals that do not have a 'soul seed/imprint' or 'soul potential'. By defining OP's in a completely different way to the forum's working definition, you create confusion, misunderstanding and noise. Now, you can argue that the concept of the organic portal is not true or nonexistent, but that is not what you have done here. You have attempted to redefine the concept before launching into the rest of your post. Thus, the maxim GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) applies to the rest of what you have written. If you are unsure of terms or concepts, please consult the Cass Glosssary, as using the definitions in the glossary will ensure the points you are attempting to discuss are communicated clearly without semantic issues interfering with the discussion.

In this way forum members will be able to clearly see and consider the points you wish to raise, which is your desired objective - right? ;)
 
kenlee said:
The waking process starts with “waking up” the body (or “spiritualizing it with awareness”) so that it can serve its function as an alchemical transformational apparatus (assuming it has this potential) for the transformation of Being.
This information really hits home for me. As a young child I had severe asthma, and was treated with very potent cortisones, which, I think, at the time were in their experimental stage. There are emotional side effects to these drugs - one of which is outbursts of anger.

These outbursts have always baffled and demoralized me. They seem to come from outside of myself, enter me, build in intensity until they are released. I can not tell you how many times this has happened and how many people I have hurt and how much remorse and self-recrimination I carry around with me.

I had no idea of the connection between steroids and anger until I read "Political Ponorology" on this website. It seems that there is some type of change to the structure of the brain induced by steroids that affects personality and can lead to pathologies.

When I was in my thirties, I started practicing yoga, and the outbursts stopped. The asthma also went away.

My spiritual path began at this time. The moment that changed my perspective forever came in a Native American ceremony where each aspect of creation was identified, welcomed, and invited to participate in the ceremony. Something shifted in me profoundly when I understood that the trees, animals, plants, stones, directions were interconnected with ourselves. It was not an intellectual understanding. It went very deep.
The reaction was, "Of course. I always knew that. How did I forget?"

After that life became harder. There were many more connections made, many more opportunities appeared. But at the same time, other things happened as well, that had to do with my body and my health, two of them being, of course, psychopaths, one of whom I married and the other or whom I worked .

It is really amazing to me that each time I seem to reach another plateau, something seems to come along to impact my physical well being. I won't list all of them, but the most amazing to me came two years ago when I was at work. I was walking on level ground, and I felt a force push me to the ground where I broke my wrist. I had been putting pictures up on a bulletin board with magnets that had glue on one side, and a magnet may have adhered to my shoe. But what I felt was something push me. I broke my wrist and was in a cast for four months.

Each time the body gets weak, the negative emotions surface again. Recently, I have begun to get intimations that they are outside as well as inside of me. I have begun, when I am awake enough, to say, "This is not a part of me. I will not let you in. Go away." I am successful with this strategy, which is fairly new, about 40% of the time. I am struggling to remain silent when these "energies" are around or in me, so that I don't empower them or hurt anyone else.

It's really hard.

It seems that everytime that I get my body to work with me, more opens up for me spiritually. But each time that opening comes, something has happened to my physical well being.

Is this a coincidence?

Anyway, the point of this post is to thank kenlee for pointing out the specific function of the body "as an alchemical transformational apparatus, (assuming it has this potential), for the
transformation of Being."

I always knew that I had to work through the physical center, but now it feels much more of an imperative. I don't know if my body has the potential, but there is something in me that is still yearning for "the transformation of Being".




.
 
webglider said:
My spiritual path began at this time. The moment that changed my perspective forever came in a Native American ceremony where each aspect of creation was identified, welcomed, and invited to participate in the ceremony. Something shifted in me profoundly when I understood that the trees, animals, plants, stones, directions were interconnected with ourselves. It was not an intellectual understanding. It went very deep.
The reaction was, "Of course. I always knew that. How did I forget?"

After that life became harder. There were many more connections made, many more opportunities appeared. But at the same time, other things happened as well, that had to do with my body and my health, two of them being, of course, psychopaths, one of whom I married and the other or whom I worked .
I can't help but wonder about this connection between the 'all is one' shift and the two psychopaths appearing in your life. Seems like this belief highly benefits psychopaths and would make you ripe for the pickin'. Perhaps it wasn't the 'matrix going after you' (is that what you were alluding to?) but it was your beliefs that weakened your mental hygiene and made you vulnerable for attack. Psychopaths want normal people to think they are all 'one', and this common view - that humanity is essentially all the same - is perhaps the biggest issue holding the normal world back from creating a normal world.
 
Shane said:
Seems like this belief highly benefits psychopaths and would make you ripe for the pickin'. Perhaps it wasn't the 'matrix going after you' (is that what you were alluding to?) but it was your beliefs that weakened your mental hygiene and made you vulnerable for attack.
.

I couldn't agree more.
 
Racer_Unknown said:
...

And could the phrase “in search for the miraculous" be a search or quest to find or rather "get" a soul... to then... what? perform "miracles" other than being able to leave the Human Experiece at the end of a master cycle or a shorter cycle?
What you have done is purchased several jigsaw puzzles, dumped them all into one pile, then haphazardly chosen which pieces you LIKED over which you didn't, and then began to assume that these pieces should all fit together coherently. Of course, that isn't really what your post is about at all, is it? Nonetheless, I am sure you know that you have no interest in any answers, because you really haven't asked any questions. What you have done is phrased statements LIKE questions, you are phishing, and nothing more.
 
This a very dense subject and cannot be taken "lightly" and from snippets from different sources. You do not seem to properly understand any of the concepts you are asking about. You need to read and re-read all of the sources that deal with the subject, understand the concepts clearly, and put the pieces of the puzzle together. (Read the original material i.e. Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Mouravieff, etc. and then all the mountains of further explications on these sites).

Different sources emphasize different aspects of 4th Way Teaching. And all sources to varying degrees may introduce biases/personal opinions or misunderstandings. Gurdjieff surely knew about "the two humanities" but chose not to emphasize this point because it is impossible to tell the two apart in any practical way in "exterior men," that is, man number 1, 2, or 3; and because Gurdjieff concentrated on the practical ways that man 1, 2, or 3 can cease to be a man-machine and become a Man in the "full sense of the word" as he put it.

The main difference between an "individually souled human" and an "OP" is that the individually souled human is born with the two higher centers, the Higher Emotional and the Higher Intellectual Centers, and these are fully developed and functioning. It is the lower centers (motor/instinctive, lower emotional, and lower intellectual) that are a mess and not functioning properly (and with their own energy/fuel). The whole point of the Work is to study and get to thoroughly know your "machine." Then eventually, when you are a good enough "mechanic," to clean, fix, and re-assemble the machine so that it functions optimally. Of course it is necessary to learn these skills from those who know, not those who pretend to know or think they know, but in fact do not know.

It is also indespensible to do it in a proper, sincere group, as this group acts as an undistorted mirror for the individuals Working within it. An individual cannot see many programs running in him/her self; and will not be able to see them for a long time. While the whole point in doing the Work is to identify these mechanical programs that have accumulated over a lifetime, and carefully clean them out of your system.

So the individually souled humans have the two higher centers fully developed and functioning and communicating to the lower centers, but the lower centers do not function properly and they function too slowly and inefficiently to receive the communications from the higher centers, therefore (except in potential) being and behaving no differently than "OP's," being driven and controlled by their lower, animal drives and mechanical programs only, and having no real, conscious will.

The crux of the matter is that "normal" humans do not have a very high level of consciousness in the normal conditions of everyday life (except in rare flashes under rare circumstances). They cannot Remeber Themselves. In other words, they are constantly identified and in deep confluence with the many small I's that are constantly changing and/or with the many external distractions which are also constantly changing and which trigger the different small I's. To even REALLY become aware and REMAIN aware of this fact takes constant super efforts.

There is another problem. We do not generally have enough energy to continue such super efforts. This is also due to the fact that the machine or "chemical factory" is not functioning properly nor efficiently. "Normal" man is constantly wasting energy that can be effectively used for this productive Work of cleaning out mechanical programs and unifying the many little I's under a (developing) stronger, conscious will by daydreaming, useless imagining, all manner of vanities, self-importance, etc.

After long years of distiguishing A influences from B influences and "collecting and appreciating" B influences, the "seed" of a magnetic center is formed. Under proper conditions, and long efforts and hard work, the magnetic center grows and then fully develops. At this point man 1, 2, or 3 becomes man number 4. Man number 4 is in many ways still an external man, but is on a higher level than man 1, 2, or 3. He has a stronger will, less conflicting little I's, a certain direction he may be able to maintain, instead of going around in circles. If, under the guidance of a man of C influences (a man with a stronger magnetic center and connected either directly or by means of succession) he passes the "First Threshold" and starts on the "Stairway", which lies between external life ("the wilderness") and The Way, he can eventually become man 5 (after crossing the Second Threshold at the top of the Stairway, this is the "Second Birth" in the terminology of Esoteric Christianity), then man 6 and finally man 7.

This process corresponds to the fully grown and developed magnetic center eventually absorbing the lower emotional center, and later in turn being absorbed by the Higher Emotional Center. This way a permanent conscious connection is created with the Higher Emotional Center. Through the Higher Emotional Center contact is established with the Higher Intellectual Center and finally the gains are consolidated by "closing the circuit" so to say, at which point man number 7, man in the full sense of the word, posesses full and real Conscience, Consciousness, and Will. He is master of himself. And all of this is permanent. At this point he cannot lose (by the same methods and influences used to gain) all of these new abilities and state of BEing.

Of course, all of the above is a very brief summary. There is lots of details that need to be learned, understood, practiced, etc. Also there is the danger of developing a black magnetic center, under strong STS influences and/or being guided by a man of a black magnetic center who conciously deceives or is duped himself and dupes others and has no connection to a real Esoteric Center.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that making the efforts and super-efforts and doing the hard work under proper guidance/in a sincere group for a long period of time is what matters. Phenomenon chasing (or new experience chasing), wiseacring, talking about or experimenting about PSI or "paranormal" phenomena in and of itself will do nothing for "spiritual evolution" except keep you asleep and running in circles and possibly expose you to dangers you do not understand. The "spiritual/metaphysical/astral/ethereal realms" are a jungle, as dangerous as any physical jungle to be frolicking around without proper knowledge and being properly equipped.

In addition, the C's say that individually souled humans do indeed have a soul that may have incarnated many times, but can't remember any of it. Now there is no way to know this for us on our level, being man 1, 2 or 3; by the way man 1 is a man whose "mental center of gravity" is in the motor/instinctive center; man 2 in the lower emotional center, and man 3 in the lower intellectual center. Put another way, these centers are dominent. So all of this becomes speculative, and the best we can do is to come up with a working hypothesis and adjust said hypthesis as more data is collected. Remember in the Fourth Way no faith or belief is required, on the contrary, faith or belief of any kind can be said to be opposed to the 4th Way. In the 4th Way understanding comes before anything. You should do nothing that you do not understand, unless as an experiment to gather data, but under the guidance of someone who does understand (and is responsible and trustworthy).

So since we cannot practically know who is an OP and who has individual soul potential, we need to concentrate on the hard work and efforts that may eventually produce fruits/results that will speak for themselves. The whole process, and it is a process - for a long time you will not be able to notice any progress, but if you are making the proper efforts and doing the work that needs to be done, there will be slow imperceptible progress - is about fixing the false personality - making it into a more stable and real organism that will eventually be united into the real I and "soul" at which point the "married" personality/soul will survive physical death and remeber consciously all previous life experiences/lessons. When man 4 becomes man 5, the false personality dies and the Individuality is born. Again all of this is very hypothetical, but this is the tradition and teaching. As the process progresses certain abilities will result that can be considered "paranormal." But these come about as a result of the hard work and are not pursued in and of themselves. True 4th Way is an STO pursuit and does not follow methods of gaining "special powers" for their own sake which often are then used to dominate and manipulate others for personal gain. People can have so-called psychic or paranormal powers and be on a very low spiritual development as well. To gather true knowledge, make the efforts and super efforts, do the hard work - conscious suffering, instead of mechanical suffering which is the norm in this life - is what is required to make any progress in the "spiritual evolution" for a man. Everything else is distraction from these conscious efforts.
 
And all of this could have been discovered and understood by Racer_unknown if he actually took more than a few hours to read. Instead, he drains others of their time and effort, because isn't that easier? Perhaps he not only does it because it is easier, but for another reason as well.

The question becomes, how much time, energy and effort will be required of this forum to get racer to do what he was asked to do in the beginning? How much convoluted thinking and self-referencing will this forum be subjected to before racer goes on his way or actually gets down to business?

The subjects discussed here and their development are taken very - very - seriously by members of this forum. It is not a place for puzzle pieces to be thrown about until someone else puts them together for you. In short - not only is racer's cup so full that nothing else can be poured into it, all evidence points to the fact that he doesn't even want anything else - he just wants to 'play' with shiny pieces that tickle his fancy and, perhaps, while he's at it, distract and drain as much as possible. osit.
 
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