Importance of freedom

[CelticWarrior]

I'd like to start my post with a quote by Gurdjieff.

“We must strive for freedom if we strive for self-knowledge. The task of self-knowledge and of further self-development is of such importance and seriousness, it demands such intensity of effort, that to attempt it any old way and amongst other things is impossible. The person who undertakes this task must put it first in his life, which is not so long that he can afford to squander it on trifles.”

Okay, now here is what's on my mind. If the task of self-understanding/development is to be achieved then it not only takes an incredible amount of energy, time, effort and in most cases sacrifice of what you think is important but, what about the ability to explore the work of oneself with or without freedom.
Let's say for example I was in a routine that kept me from really tackling what I wanted to learn. The "old way" as Gurdjieff put it would be impossible.

Now, I'm faced with the possibility of a new routine, getting a new job and a new place to live. (I'm actually very happy about this by the way). So what can I accomplish with older ways of "doing things" which others are still clearly unable to break free from in everyday life? The external consideration factor applies.

Any suggestions on my question above is appreciated.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

I'd like to start my post with a quote by Gurdjieff.

“Now, I'm faced with the possibility of a new routine, getting a new job and a new place to live. (I'm actually very happy about this by the way). So what can I accomplish with older ways of "doing things" which others are still clearly unable to break free from in everyday life? The external consideration factor applies.

Any suggestions on my question above is appreciated.

Hi,

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Can you give a bit more data? What "older ways?" are you talking about? Can you go into a bit more detail about your circumstances? :)

 

[Turgon]

“We must strive for freedom if we strive for self-knowledge. The task of self-knowledge and of further self-development is of such importance and seriousness, it demands such intensity of effort, that to attempt it any old way and amongst other things is impossible. The person who undertakes this task must put it first in his life, which is not so long that he can afford to squander it on trifles.”

I think, CW, what's meant by 'any old way' by Gurdjieff is more of a mechanical response to action. That is the 'old' way because that is how human beings have been doing things for thousands of years. So to strive for freedom can't be done mechanically, because it's completely subjective, with constraints that aren't seen because you aren't conscious of them.

what about the ability to explore the work of oneself with or without freedom.

To explore the work requires observation and 'recording' what's happening, emotionally, mentally and physically. That is what demands intensity and effort. Then once that is done for a period of time (which may be a long period of time) you start to understand more about yourself, how you operate, why you do and act the way you do.

Freedom doesn't really play a part in this because there is no freedom. Everything happens.

Let's say for example I was in a routine that kept me from really tackling what I wanted to learn. The "old way" as Gurdjieff put it would be impossible.

I think it's more about looking at the same routine, but from a fresher perspective. Attempting to be more awake and aware while doing the same routine.

Now, I'm faced with the possibility of a new routine, getting a new job and a new place to live. (I'm actually very happy about this by the way). So what can I accomplish with older ways of "doing things" which others are still clearly unable to break free from in everyday life? The external consideration factor applies.

Well, in esoteric work, nothing. If you want to accomplish anything esoterically by being in a new routine and not do things the 'old way', it requires observation and study first. Then maybe you can accomplish 'conscious' work while doing the same routine.

Does this make sense?

 

[CelticWarrior]

Thank you Turgon, you make sense indeed! Understanding more about how I operate and learning or recording those observations is what I will be doing on my new quest for further self-development.

@ Mrs. Peel
If you are still able to comment I'd appreciate your insights or experiences. To be more clear, I want to know how do deal with everyday situations and how to see or understand very carefully what I am doing in respect to actions that involve other people and myself. From time to time I feel the need to be overly critical of what faults other people might have when clearly they are in need of knowing why they are reacting emotionally to something or eating the wrong food (highly processed/manufactured foods) but, I don't see the need to push my ideas onto others as I want others to become aware of what's happening around them and within themselves like myself. My circumstances are that I'm moving away from home and my parents and wanted a fresh perspective on being more conscious.

Any further comments are appreciated... thanks :)

 

[beetlemaniac]

Sometimes, doing things the 'old way' may also involve some Identification, as Gurdjieff explained it. You could also try to detect all those times that you are identified to a certain activity and consequently forget yourself. When I'm identified with a thing, I become like a piece of meat, all my energy is concentrated on that thing, making me unable to see anything but what has caused the fascination. It can bring a lot of misery since one has limited himself so drastically in one narrow direction, forgetting everything else in the larger world, and most importantly, himself.

So I suppose one could say that the first steps in the Work are all about self-remembering and catching oneself out when one goes too far into the world (which also includes being identified with thoughts). Constant vigilance! :)

 

[herondancer]

Moving into a new situation is a good chance to practice observing yourself. Gurdjieff mentions that is it when a man is in an unfamiliar situation (he uses the example of being in a foreign country), that one feels "naked". You don't have all the circumstances and cues that trigger your usual, comfortable behaviour patterns. He went to a lot of trouble to create those situations for his Priory students, making those not used to physical labour dig ditches, and those who were very physical study difficult material. They were then supposed to observe themselves mentally, emotionally and physically to gain understanding of their strengths and weaknesses.

For starters you can observe your impulse to be critical of people, without indulging it inappropriately. If it is a situation where you need to say something (maybe you are a workplace supervisor), you can practice saying what needs to be said, but doing your best to find the way to express it that is respectful and encouraging. But as you are just moving out now, that example may not apply. Just observation of the triggers that lead to critical thoughts will give you plenty to work with. That's just one possibility of many you should be able to find.

 

[CelticWarrior]

I have been looking for the cues that lead to triggering my most critical thoughts and the level of observation at this point in my new life seems to be moving forward. Observation in an unfamiliar territory has been like looking at myself through another person's eyes. Herondancer, it has been a struggle to overcome the way in which one observes inwardly and to be uncovered in new light is helpful. @ Beetlemaniac
Identification with things and people, or even skills for a career (like policing) have always been things to overcome since my teenage years, but now... as an adult and learning what I have so far, it becomes more clear to break away from the need to be identified with many thoughts that are of no consequence, but personally I'm not in that much danger of such a limited direction since I have met like minded people who's objectives are self-work, esoctericism, objective awareness, universal issues... and the ability to be conscious of oneself is really a great challenge. Vigilance indeed!

Thanks for all of your thoughts everyone, I could not have gotten more sound advice to a new beginning :)


Good day!

 

[ashu]

CelticWarrior - thank you for starting this thread.

Like you, I am in the same position also (leaving home, job and country). The reason for this decision was based on the importance of freedom.

Moving into a new situation is a good chance to practice observing yourself. Gurdjieff mentions that is it when a man is in an unfamiliar situation (he uses the example of being in a foreign country), that one feels "naked". You don't have all the circumstances and cues that trigger your usual, comfortable behaviour patterns.

I believe this will provide an excellent opportunity for me to practice observing myself under 'new' conditions. Feeling somewhat nervous and excited at the same time :)

 

[shellycheval]

Not meaning to sound "flip" or trivializing of your quest but remember, "wherever you go--there you are."

New experiences can provide some shocks that are helpful in seeing oneself in a different light, but the new soon becomes the norm and there you are again alone with yourself, and nearly constantly lying to yourself as we all do.

The Work can be done in place by seeking to be able to observe the self. But, G. also recommends that one be a good obyvatel, a good householder, or rather one who can conduct ones worldly affairs in a functional manner, before entering The Work.

Another old cliché that applies is “We don’t know what we don’t know.” From my observation, doing the work is like learning to write really well. At first it appears that there are simply sets of rules to master and then ones writing will improve, and it will to a point. But, the more one learns about what is required for truly excellent writing, the more one realizes how even the smallest details make a huge difference in the quality of ones work, and how complex the process really is—the true nature of the real work involved cannot be comprehended at the beginning of the process or known, even marginally, until much effort has been made to learn. Then we can only begin to see what we don’t know.

As impossible of a process as The Work seems at times, for some of us its “the only game in town,” meaning the only activity of true value to improving ones being. For me knowing that The Work exists, and that I am attempting to do it whenever I can remember to, and to remember to attempt to stop lying to myself about any progress, gives meaningful direction to my life. Simply (or not so) being involved in the process, however minutely, appears to have made my life worth living.
Best of luck with your seeking.
shellycheval

 

[kenlee]

I'd like to start my post with a quote by Gurdjieff.

“We must strive for freedom if we strive for self-knowledge. The task of self-knowledge and of further self-development is of such importance and seriousness, it demands such intensity of effort, that to attempt it any old way and amongst other things is impossible. The person who undertakes this task must put it first in his life, which is not so long that he can afford to squander it on trifles.”

Okay, now here is what's on my mind. If the task of self-understanding/development is to be achieved then it not only takes an incredible amount of energy, time, effort and in most cases sacrifice of what you think is important but, what about the ability to explore the work of oneself with or without freedom.
Let's say for example I was in a routine that kept me from really tackling what I wanted to learn. The "old way" as Gurdjieff put it would be impossible.

Hi CelticWarrior, I think beetlemaniac really got to the crux of the question which concerns Gurdjieff's ideas on 'identification' and how we waste our energy and potential and, basically, how we 'lose ourselves in what is not ourselves,' that is, how we get lost in our reactionary machine which really should be a finely tuned instrument to give us more or less accurate readings about what's going on around us. When we identify with our reactions and/or our reaction machine then this machine, which should really just be an instrument of knowledge, now becomes the control master of the totality and 'it' cuts itself off from anything higher within us that can give us the power to be inwardly free from the mechanical world and it's influences that surround us. So, I think, seeing how 'not free' we are in this respect is a good start, seeing how we identify with things, is a good way to see how we lose our energy in things before we can really begin to be 'inwardly free' and receive any kind of higher influences without losing it all (and our real selves) in our identifications.

 

[eternusphoenix]

Sometimes, doing things the 'old way' may also involve some Identification, as Gurdjieff explained it. You could also try to detect all those times that you are identified to a certain activity and consequently forget yourself. When I'm identified with a thing, I become like a piece of meat, all my energy is concentrated on that thing, making me unable to see anything but what has caused the fascination. It can bring a lot of misery since one has limited himself so drastically in one narrow direction, forgetting everything else in the larger world, and most importantly, himself.

So I suppose one could say that the first steps in the Work are all about self-remembering and catching oneself out when one goes too far into the world (which also includes being identified with thoughts). Constant vigilance! :)

This resonates with me. I found myself at an occupy protest over the past weekend and I got into an un-win-able argument with an Obama supporter. I was sleeping as I was debating and not listening. I left feeling completely drained and deflated. The person that I thought I was talking with was pushed further into denial by my complete lack of Self-remembering / External consideration. I didn't initiate the conversation but I did help to push it into a direction that it did not need to go. Had I been using external consideration, I would have taken a step back and listened so that I could have the opportunity to learn something from this person.

Beetlemaniac, your description perfectly describes the tunnel vision that I found myself in. For me, the emotional rush always proceeds the tunnel vision. The emotional rush is one big warning sign for me that I am about to fall into a deeper sleep.

 

[CelticWarrior]

Hello, thanks for the continued input on this thread as it demands a great deal of attention for people who believe that a more free lifestyle outwardly may not infact set them free. In fact, on the other hand it may simply be another buffer zone in which programs need to be dislodged so to speak, but I do agree it may provide a more reflective perspective if the conditions are favourable... which has been my own experience. So here we are on this subject of freedom and what it's true importance means in the world of self knowledge.

Like you, I am in the same position also (leaving home, job and country). The reason for this decision was based on the importance of freedom.

I believe this will provide an excellent opportunity for me to practice observing myself under 'new' conditions. Feeling somewhat nervous and excited at the same time :)

Ashu, I believe this may be an excellent opportunity to begin seeing yourself but also knowing yourself. This may help clarify: "The necessity to seek truth in the world and in oneself and act upon it has to come from oneself. Free will is not really free, as long as man acts from his conditioned personality. Ultimately, change only happens when we change and seperate lies from truth within and without." What I'm getting at here is there must be a lot of work done on "inward freedom" which means a great deal of self-observing.

Sometimes, doing things the 'old way' may also involve some Identification, as Gurdjieff explained it. You could also try to detect all those times that you are identified to a certain activity and consequently forget yourself. When I'm identified with a thing, I become like a piece of meat, all my energy is concentrated on that thing, making me unable to see anything but what has caused the fascination. It can bring a lot of misery since one has limited himself so drastically in one narrow direction, forgetting everything else in the larger world, and most importantly, himself.

So I suppose one could say that the first steps in the Work are all about self-remembering and catching oneself out when one goes too far into the world (which also includes being identified with thoughts). Constant vigilance! :)

This resonates with me. I found myself at an occupy protest over the past weekend and I got into an un-win-able argument with an Obama supporter. I was sleeping as I was debating and not listening. I left feeling completely drained and deflated. The person that I thought I was talking with was pushed further into denial by my complete lack of Self-remembering / External consideration. I didn't initiate the conversation but I did help to push it into a direction that it did not need to go. Had I been using external consideration, I would have taken a step back and listened so that I could have the opportunity to learn something from this person.

Beetlemaniac, your description perfectly describes the tunnel vision that I found myself in. For me, the emotional rush always proceeds the tunnel vision. The emotional rush is one big warning sign for me that I am about to fall into a deeper sleep.

Eternusphoenix, this emotional rush you speak of is something I am familiar with and can be a very difficult thing to fight against, although with enough persistence, it's possible to "catch it" before it becomes "inflammed". This might remind you to: "Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born." To that effect, self-observation is needed to awaken from any trigger of subjective tunnel vision.

My reason for this posting is that it was intended to get the feedback of people who look for a deeper form of freedom, that is within us, and must be attained through hard work on oneself. Although, the importance of external freedom goes a long way, too.

 

[stainlesssteve]

Just a minor point, among some impressive insights from some contributors.
"any old way" Is an English idiom perhaps fallen out of use in some English speaking countries.
The accent falls on "any"....... The "old" is not to be understood in its literal meaning.
The expression means "willy-nilly", arbitrary or casual.

 

[Muxel]

You said it, stainlesssteve!

The original question was based upon a semantic misunderstanding, which necessitated a forced green-language take on the "any old way" colloquialism by subsequent posters. CelticWarrior's "true" question must then be inferred from the thread title, if one desires coherence. Here we have two possible interpretations: physical freedom and non-physical freedom. Now I think freedom in the Gurdjieff quote simply means the ability to put the "task of self-knowledge" above all other things. Thus it matters not whether your shackles are physical (e.g. oppressive surroundings) or non-physical (e.g. Identification) — they must be overcome.

 

[CelticWarrior]

Indeed, Muxel.

It was quite a battle to work at freeing myself from those oppressive surrounding which were to a great effect hindering my ability to keep up the work on growing as an individual. You can only imagine the whirlwind of emotions and pretty much a non-stop feeback loop from my family. It was offensive on a daily basis to say the least.

And of course, the freedom of any identification may it be with how older (seemingly wiser) people tend to take on responsibility with their actions in life and fulfill their way of enlightenment or growth of individuality, implying that they have the answers and they should be acknowledged for it... or with something as simple as a character in a movie/book.

The need to be free both phsycially and non-physically is a challenge to overcome.