Improved delivery method for liposomal nutrients?

[Thor]

I decided to start a new thread on improved delivery method of liposomal nutrients. As it’s not DYI it doesn’t really fit in this thread. Moderators, feel free to move this post to a more relevant thread.

Having ordered a HBOT chamber and getting ready for the protocol I needed some vitamin C and have been discussing the topic in the DIY Liposomal Nutrients thread.

I did some Google research and came across a company called LipoCellTech, that has developed a new and (they claim) improved method of delivering liposomal nutrients to the cells.

Today I had a meeting with their international sales director and to my enthusiast layman’s ear it sounded very promising. I asked him to send me an email with the main points of our talk as there was a lot of information. Below, I’ve copied what he sent me.

Here’s some of the points I remember – refer to Jaap van der Meer’s email for a more thorough description.

• The product has 90% vitamin C content which is very high compared to liquid and powdered alternatives.
• The liposomal delivery mechanism happens when you coat a (vitamin C) molecule in a double layer of liposomes. The cells also have a double liposomal layer and when a liposomal nutrient meets the cell it is absorbed by it. It’s not as if something is carried into the cell through a portal or that the molecule has the correct size. As the “walls” (my explanation) of the cell and the liposome covered molecule are made up of the same material, they join and all the vitamin C is now inside the cell.
• The product actually isn’t liposomal to begin with but it’s coated with a substance that becomes liposomal as soon as it enters the intestines. Liposome are absorbed in the intestines through enterocytes so preventing the liposomes from degrading in the stomach increases the bioavailability.
• Most companies that provide lab-results talk about blood concentration but the concentration in the blood is not the same as how much gets transported into the cell as the liver may filter a lot of the content before it reaches the cell.

The company has a number of other liposomal supplements:

• B-complex
• Vitamin C
• Vitamin D3 K2 Magnesium
• Multi
• Vegan Omega 3
• Magnesium
• Gluthatione
• Curcumin
• Hyaluronic Acid with vitamin C
• MSM + Boswelia
• Vitamin B12
• R-Alpha Lipoic Acid

LipoCellTech sells only bulk (minimum 25 kilos) to other companies. However, I told him that I was about to try out HBOT as an addition to my Neurofeedback business and he agreed to sell me a kilo for 215 EUR to try it out on with my 180 day HBOT protocol for myself and my girl friend. They also have a consumer brand (vitamunda.co.uk) that sells the same products in capsules but they are much more expensive.

It would be great if some of the more medically knowledgeable members could evaluate whether this makes sense. It sounds very plausible but all that glitters is not gold . He has a section in the email about all the other products that are not as good which is a bit too much for me but then again, he is a sales guy.



Mail from LipoCellTech (many of the points are summarized in the attached file "Powdered Liposomal vitamins and minerals"):

Dear Thor,

Thank you for taking the time to have our meeting. Here is the information we discussed in the meeting. There are two types of liposomal products on the market at the moment, one is the liquid form the other one the powder form. They increase the absorption of the supplement tremendously and are becoming more and more popular. There are some minus points though on the different products which I will list out here below.


Liquid form
The minus points of the liquid form are:

It is produced with heat and/or pressure which can damage the vitamin C
To stabilize the liposomes alcohol is added or another preservative which makes the product less pure.
The shelf life is very short and once the bottle is opened you have to put it in the fridge and after 6 weeks you can throw it away.
The taste is bad.
It is often flavoured which makes the products less pure and you risk that flavour chemicals wind up in the liposome which will carry it into the cell.
Percentages of liposomes in the product can vary a lot. It can be as low as 10% or 0%.

Powder form
The minus points of the powder form are:
It is produced with heat and/or pressure which can damage the vitamin C.
It is then spray dried or freeze dried into a powder form and then you are not sure it the liposomes are still in tact
Percentages of liposomes in the product can vary a lot. It can be as low as 10% or 0%.

Our product
Our product is produced in a different way than other liposomal products.
The production process is based on new scientific discoveries.
It is not produced with heat or pressure.
We don't need to add chemicals to stabilise the liposomes.
The shelf life is long.
It doesn't need to be refrigerated.
It is not flavoured. The taste is neutral
We don't spray dry and we don't freeze dry.
It is a true liposomal form, not a mix of phospholipids and a supplement.
More than 90 % liposomes in the products
This gives a very stable, pure and effective product

Prices can differ a lot because of the quality. If only 10% of the liposomes are left you usually have a very cheap product. But there is another reason for low prices.

Fake products
There are cheap products on the market but they are fake or of a very low quality.

One is the "Your Zooki" brand.
https://yourzooki.com/
https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/yourzooki-ltd-a20-1083951-yourzooki-ltd.html
They got a court case because their product doesn't contain liposomes.

Another one is Dr. Mercola liposomal products
https://www.thehealthcloud.co.uk/is-mercola-liposomal-vitamin-c-fake/
This brand simply mixes phosphilips with a supplement, then they spray dry and call it liposomal while it has no liposomes in the material.
It acts the same as normal vitamin C.

Also european brands produce mixes instead of true liposomes. Another one is ascorbyl oleate and palmitate. These products are usually sold via Amazon. I added a document to this mail which explains why they are fake.

Another one is Lipo C
https://www.facebook.com/lipoc.my/?ref=page_internal
This product doesn't contain any liposomes and is fake too.

Here is Lipo C Askor, the company in the Czech Republic I was talking about.
LipoC Askor Forte contains RosaCelip-LD
LIPO C ASKOR FORTE

The ingredient list.says:
1 capsule contains 520 mg RosaCelip-LD®, of which 500 mg vitamin C (625% DDD),
10 mg citrus bioflavonoids, 10 mg rose hip extract.

So you can see there are no phospholipids in the product so it is not liposomal.
The company inPHARM.cz is selling it.

Aktuality :: Edukafarm.cz is connected with them.
I also added the product information of lipofer where you can see it is an emulsion.

The only way to make sure you have a true liposome is to make a picture with an electronic microscope. I added a picture of our liposomal multi. Plus an encapsulation efficiency test. This test is vital for knowing the amount of liposomes in a product. You will find that many liposomal products have a low percentage in the product sometimes only 10 % sometimes even 0%. You can ask any supplier of liposomal products what is the percentage of liposomes in their product and how they test this. Our product has 90% of products encapsulated in liposomes which is very high. This quality point is very important for your promotion.

I added two studies which show bioavailability, D3 and B12. We will have new studies this year for curucumin, iron, magnesium and Glutathion. The liposomal form of curcumin will give a dramatic increase in bioavailability. Same for Glutathion.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20535554/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389332/

I also want to share some additional marketing information on Glutathione. And then specifically the link between Glutathion and covid. There are many articles about it on the internet and a reason why the glutathione interest has increased. It might not be possible to share this information on your site but I am sure people also will find out in your country when they are googling.

Here are some articles.
COVID-19 patients have increased oxidative stress, oxidant damage, and glutathione deficiency
The Role of Glutathione in Protecting against the Severe Inflammatory Response Triggered by COVID-19
Boost Immune System With Glutathione To Combat Covid-19
StackPath
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213007120301350
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsinfecdis.0c00288

It is a well known fact that Glutathion breaks down in the stomach into amino acids and doesn't arrive in the blood so it is useless to use the non liposomal form. Because direct supplementation of glutathione is not successful, supply of the raw nutritional materials used to generate GSH, such as cysteine and glycine, may be more effective at increasing glutathione levels. However a liposomal form is much more effective where the Glutathion molecule gets protected by the double layer of phospholipids and gets safely transported in the blood and the cell. On slide 15 of the attached powerpoint you will find the results of scientific research: a 100% increase in PBMCs. PBMC stands for peripheral blood mononuclear cells. PBMCs are a variety of specialized immune cells that work together to protect our bodies from harmful pathogens. Their location in peripheral blood is significant because they act as a line of defense from infection and disease.

The fact that liposomal C will have a much better bioavailability than intravenous see you can find in chapter 5 of the book https://www.amazon.nl/Curing-Incurable-Vitamin-Infectious-Diseases-ebook/dp/B016NH1NPE.

In this case we are talking about the absorption in the cells not only in the blood. Usually companies promote that their product will be absorbed in the blood and that it will therefore have a better effect. But the product can be removed from the blood by the kidneys and the liver so it will have little change to be absorbed in the cells. The liposomal form will easily merge with a cell so that guarantees the result a supplement should have.

"A much smaller oral dose of liposome encapsulated vitamin C ( 5 to 10 grams) often results in a clearly superior clinical response than a much larger dose of vitamin C given intravenously ( 25 to 100 grams)."

Chapter 5 page 442, Summary.

On our updated site you can find most of our products and scientific data (LipoCellTech™ – The future of vitamins)

Other products which are not mentioned on the website are: resveratrol, a sleep formula with melatonin and Gaba and Quercetin.

The book curing the incurable will give more information about how much C one can administer and what would be too much.

Here is the site of our brand Vitamunda where you can order finished products: Liposomal products | Vitamunda

I added a document to the mail which give information about the absorption of liposomes via the intestines, the enterocytes.

If you have any questions please let me know.

 

[Cosmos]

From my layman’s perspective it indeed sounds very promising, if what they say can be trusted. Also, what they say about many products/companies out there simply faking that there is Lipo in their products, is in accordance with what I have suspected when I looked into the subject quite a bit myself.

It would be great if some of the more medically knowledgeable members could evaluate whether this makes sense.

Indeed!

 

[Cosmos]

It would be interesting to know what methods and equipment they are using to create their products. Sounds like it is a new/unique method and that they have the rights (patents?) on it.

 

[Thor]

It would be interesting to know what methods and equipment they are using to create their products. Sounds like it is a new/unique method and that they have the rights (patents?) on it.

I don't know how they go about their intellectual property handling. From what I understood, the delivery mechanism, where they cover the molecules in a way that they are protected in the stomach and only converted into liposomes once they reach the top part of the intestines is unique and what sets them apart from other companies.

 

[Thor]

As I understand it, their delivery method means that they can get much more of the active ingredient into the cells, be it Vitamin C, Gluthatione, Curcumin, Magnesium, etc. compared to conventional supplement delivery methods. Actually, for Gluthatione, I recall that the sales director said something along the lines of that it doesn't make sense to sell that as normal supplement as the gluthathione molecule is made up of protein that breaks up into amino acids when it's in the stomach, so when it eventually reaches the blood stream, there's very few gluthatione molecules left to actively work. Using liposomal delivery method ensures that the gluthathione actually enters into the cells. I don't have the medical knowledge to assess whether that's correct but it sounded plausible.

In addition to the Vitamin C, I asked for samples of Glutathione, Curcumin and Omega 3. Once I get it, I will have it tested with a very good biopathic/heil practitioner, that I use, to assess how my body responds to the actual supplements. It's not that valuable to have a great delivery mechanism into the cells if the quality of the compounds is mediocre. If it turns out to be good, then I may switch to LipoCellTech those of my staple supplements that they carry (Vitamin C, Multivitamin, Magnesium, Omega 3 and possibly Gluthatione).

As they only do bulk sales it might be an idea to see if other forum members are interested and pool our orders together. I could then buy the supplements and ship parcels to other forum members. But first, let's see if the quality is OK and then we can always check if anybody else is interested.

 

[worldbridger]

As I understand it, their delivery method means that they can get much more of the active ingredient into the cells, be it Vitamin C, Gluthatione, Curcumin, Magnesium, etc. compared to conventional supplement delivery methods. Actually, for Gluthatione, I recall that the sales director said something along the lines of that it doesn't make sense to sell that as normal supplement as the gluthathione molecule is made up of protein that breaks up into amino acids when it's in the stomach, so when it eventually reaches the blood stream, there's very few gluthatione molecules left to actively work. Using liposomal delivery method ensures that the gluthathione actually enters into the cells. I don't have the medical knowledge to assess whether that's correct but it sounded plausible.

In addition to the Vitamin C, I asked for samples of Glutathione, Curcumin and Omega 3. Once I get it, I will have it tested with a very good biopathic/heil practitioner, that I use, to assess how my body responds to the actual supplements. It's not that valuable to have a great delivery mechanism into the cells if the quality of the compounds is mediocre. If it turns out to be good, then I may switch to LipoCellTech those of my staple supplements that they carry (Vitamin C, Multivitamin, Magnesium, Omega 3 and possibly Gluthatione).

As they only do bulk sales it might be an idea to see if other forum members are interested and pool our orders together. I could then buy the supplements and ship parcels to other forum members. But first, let's see if the quality is OK and then we can always check if anybody else is interested.

Hi Thor and Cosmos, I replied to you Thor in the old DIY liposomal thread. Anyway, I got the answers here in this thread.

215 EUR/kilo….is not a super deal I think. Of course compared to normal uptake with regular lipo c or ascorbate, IF what they claim is true. Maybe the price come down if you buy 25 kg.

 

[Thor]

Hi Thor and Cosmos, I replied to you Thor in the old DIY liposomal thread. Anyway, I got the answers here in this thread.

215 EUR/kilo….is not a super deal I think. Of course compared to normal uptake with regular lipo c or ascorbate, IF what they claim is true. Maybe the price come down if you buy 25 kg.

Their product is not cheap in itself. The price is before VAT. I buy it for my company so I don't have to pay VAT but if you buy it as a private person that would need to be added.

This price is per kilo if you buy 25 kilos. I have their price list, and the price goes down if you buy 50, 100 or 200 kilos . So it's not really for the single consumer. But if a sufficient number of people on the forum are interested, it might be worthwhile to pool an order.

As I see it, if it is 5-10 times as efficient as orally taken vitamin C, then the price becomes much more interesting.

I have written Dr. Thomas E. Levy, the author of the quote that stated the 5-10 times increased clinical efficiency over IV vitamin C to hear what would be recommended dosages and whether there'd be adverse effects from taking such a dose for an eight month period.

I've also written Dr. Scott Scherr, who's one of the leading HBOT practitioners in the US and who uses IV vitamin C together with HBOT in his practice, to get his take on the questions.

I've gotten samples of some of their other products that I use daily and am considering using them instead of my normal providers if they turn out to be good. But they're not cheap, so for those as well, I need to figure out how much loss of the active ingredient there is in orally taken supplements compared to liposomal supplements. It's a difficult question to answer as it probably depends on the person's general health, the specific supplement, what molecule the supplement is bundled with, etc. But if I can get a ball park estimate that says, for instance, that orally taken supplements have a 30% loss before they enter the blood stream or even better, the cell itself. Then I can adjust the dosages and see if the price is acceptable.

 

[worldbridger]

Sounds good, I would like to try it to see if the is any difference. This whole liposomal business is a little shady I think, too little data, so you can only try it and see for your self. I'm interested as I said before.

Ok, let's say 250 euros per kilo, if you only need 2 grams a day it lasts 500 days, so maybe it's not that expensive. And it may be more efficient as well.

I sent them an email asking if they could give me a quote, but he, Jaap, referred me to Holistic in Sweden as their agent. I emailed him back and said I wanted to buy larger quantities than 60 capsules a bottle. No answer yet...

 

[Thor]

Sounds good, I would like to try it to see if the is any difference. This whole liposomal business is a little shady I think, too little data, so you can only try it and see for your self. I'm interested as I said before.

Ok, let's say 250 euros per kilo, if you only need 2 grams a day it lasts 500 days, so maybe it's not that expensive. And it may be more efficient as well.

I sent them an email asking if they could give me a quote, but he, Jaap, referred me to Holistic in Sweden as their agent. I emailed him back and said I wanted to buy larger quantities than 60 capsules a bottle. No answer yet...

I think you need to contact them as a company - I don't know if they sell directly to consumers. I have a small neurofeedback business and that enabled me to buy from them.

That's why I thought it might be an idea to get 25 people from the forum who wanted to buy 1 kilo each. Then I could have it shipped here and repackaged and sent to the other forum members. I just have to figure out how to handle the VAT situation.

 

[Thor]

I have written Dr. Thomas E. Levy, the author of the quote that stated the 5-10 times increased clinical efficiency over IV vitamin C to hear what would be recommended dosages and whether there'd be adverse effects from taking such a dose for an eight month period.

I got an answer from Dr. Levy. He sent me this interesting pdf that I have not read through but the contents seems very relevant, and he also linked to this website: Dr. Thomas Levy.

 

[worldbridger]

I think you need to contact them as a company - I don't know if they sell directly to consumers. I have a small neurofeedback business and that enabled me to buy from them.

That's why I thought it might be an idea to get 25 people from the forum who wanted to buy 1 kilo each. Then I could have it shipped here and repackaged and sent to the other forum members. I just have to figure out how to handle the VAT situation.

Well I did. First, let's see how many members are interested and where they are located. Maybe some have crypto accounts. Just an idea...

 

[worldbridger]

Was tired yesterday so my thoughts regarding VAT was not clear. Re VAT, I would talk to an accountant or the tax authorities about it, so you know what you can do or what you can't do. Then maybe there are ways to do things to minimise red tape so to speak.

 

[Thor]

Was tired yesterday so my thoughts regarding VAT was not clear. Re VAT, I would talk to an accountant or the tax authorities about it, so you know what you can do or what you can't do. Then maybe there are ways to do things to minimise red tape so to speak.

That sounds good. The easiest thing I can think of is for me or someone else to buy bulk and then sell if off in smaller quantities and send an invoice with VAT with each order.

This would enable us to get bulk pricing which puts the product within reach for myself compared to their consumer versions in 60 capsule bottles that are way to expensive for my needs.

If the people form the forum that buy a portion of vitamin C has a company where they can deduct the VAT (easiest to do within the EU), that's great as it makes it an even more affordable option.

If you figure out other ways to do it, let me know.

 

[anartist]

That sounds good. The easiest thing I can think of is for me or someone else to buy bulk and then sell if off in smaller quantities and send an invoice with VAT with each order.

This would enable us to get bulk pricing which puts the product within reach for myself compared to their consumer versions in 60 capsule bottles that are way to expensive for my needs.

If the people form the forum that buy a portion of vitamin C has a company where they can deduct the VAT (easiest to do within the EU), that's great as it makes it an even more affordable option.

If you figure out other ways to do it, let me know.

I would definitely be interested in this LipoCellTech @Thor. I don't have a company regarding your VAT option, but will purchase some if available.

 

[Thor]

I would definitely be interested in this LipoCellTech @Thor. I don't have a company regarding your VAT option, but will purchase some if available.

@anartist , I'd be happy to send some to you, if we can get enough people interested. The vitamin C has a shelf-life of 2-3 years so while it keeps longer than liquid liposomal vitamin C it doesn't keep indefinitely.

However, the minimum volume is 25 kilos so we'd need to have quite a number of forum members interested. So far it seems like Cosmos, Worldbridger and you are interested, so there's a ways to go .

@Mods, is it OK to coordinate bulk buying through the Forum?