ISOTM Question

[Jono]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

 

[williamsj]

I could be, and probably am not nearly 100% right, but I will try:

It is not a single book that does the job, it is a whole philosophy of life, of being.

ISOTM is an amazing book, but only a small percentage of what you need to know.

I seriously wish I had the answers, but as I am still digging through the books myself, I do not

Also I believe that the answers are personal to the reader, as we each get something slightly different from what we read.

So summary is finish the ISOTM and then pick the next one, for I believe that there is no end to knowledge unless we decree it so!

 

[anart]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

 

[RflctnOfU]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

One of my favorite paragraphs from Beelzebub's Tales speaks directly to what I bolded above:

[...BT's p. 31-32]"Shut your trap, you hopeless mongrel offshoot of the Hottentots! What an abortion you are, just like your teacher! Suppose it is true that the greatest physical force of the pigeon is concentrated in that big toe, then all the more, what we've got to do is to see that just that toe will be caught in the noose. Only then will there be any sense to our aim--that is to say, for catching these unfortunate pigeon creatures--in that brain-particularity proper to all possessors of that soft and slippery 'something' which consists in this, that when thanks to other actions, from which its insignificant manifestability depends, there arises a periodic requisite law-conformable what is called 'change of presence,' then this small so to say 'law-conformable confusion' which should proceed for the animation of other acts in its general functioning, immediately enables the center of gravity of the whole functioning, in which this slippery 'somthing' plays a very small part, to pass temporarily from its usual place to another place, owing to which there often obtains in the whole of this general functioning, unexpected results ridiculous to the point of absurdity."[...]

It certainly takes practice to observe that 'soft and slippery "something"' shifting around.

Kris

 

[Jono]

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

Just lovely Anart.

Thanks all.

 

[Piscarian]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

In a sense, the portions in bold in the above quote remind me of astrology and the various transits that are often associated with the changes people experience during such times. For example the moon is often associated with moods and moods in particular can have a strong impact on a person's perception, what he is focused on and so what he's predominately "aware" of, OSIT. If such a connection between planetary influences and human awareness is real, are there any forms of astrology that would provide clues as to a person's true un-shifting personality, or the real "I"?

 

[Carl]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

In a sense, the portions in bold in the above quote remind me of astrology and the various transits that are often associated with the changes people experience during such times. For example the moon is often associated with moods and moods in particular can have a strong impact on a person's perception, what he is focused on and so what he's predominately "aware" of, OSIT. If such a connection between planetary influences and human awareness is real, are there any forms of astrology that would provide clues as to a person's true un-shifting personality, or the real "I"?

That may be part of it, yes, but there are an uncountable number of 'A' influences assaulting us in everyday life. Anything from a big argument, to a pretty girl smiling at us, to the sun moving behind the clouds, can change our state, shifting around the little 'i's.

I don't know much about Astrology, but from what I understand, our real I, or essence, exists independently of even such celestial influences. We can only catch very small glimpses of it, generally in states of moral bankruptcy. I'm curious as to how, roughly, you think that astrology could be used in such a way?

 

[RflctnOfU]

I've just been reading 'In Search of the Miraculous' and I wanted to talk about the feelings/states of mind I felt while doing so.

I just learnt about G's take on personality/essence and while taking it in I felt a certain shift in consciousness. It felt like my personality had shut down for a few minutes, I thought about eating some bad food (e.g. sugar) and got a horrible sensation throughout my body, but if I was to think about bad food a few hours ago I would have had a slight craving, mouth watering and then stomped it out by thinking of the consequences of such a short term pleasure.

I know it's not much of a question but I'd just like some help on understanding what I was feeling and if I'm on the right track or if I was just building some sort of illusion because If I don't get back into the book tomorrow and digest some more I'll lose this sensation of awakening(?).

It's possible that while considering the insights presented in ISOTM that your focus changed enough to see things differently for a moment. That's not unusual at all. The value in such experiences (at least to my understanding) is in the realization that there ARE many different states of awareness that we each move through as we go through each day (or even each hour). This realization, if kept in mind, can help us move through states that would otherwise be very detrimental if we acted on them, taking them as our real inner state/truth/self. Once we really grasp the idea that there are many 'i's and that our states shift and morph due to external circumstances, we can learn to observe them rather than acting on them when acting on them might hurt ourselves or others.

Anyway, the point is that the value in what you're experiencing is the observation of the shift itself - keep it up - keep going and keep reading and keep observing and noting your own thinking and, eventually, you might see something you've not seen before. Don't worry about losing the sensation of awakening - you're going to lose it no matter what ;) - and it will return and fade again over and over and over again, though, with time and a lot of effort, it will eventually fade less often or for shorter amounts of time. fwiw.

In a sense, the portions in bold in the above quote remind me of astrology and the various transits that are often associated with the changes people experience during such times. For example the moon is often associated with moods and moods in particular can have a strong impact on a person's perception, what he is focused on and so what he's predominately "aware" of, OSIT. If such a connection between planetary influences and human awareness is real, are there any forms of astrology that would provide clues as to a person's true un-shifting personality, or the real "I"?

That may be part of it, yes, but there are an uncountable number of 'A' influences assaulting us in everyday life. Anything from a big argument, to a pretty girl smiling at us, to the sun moving behind the clouds, can change our state, shifting around the little 'i's.

I don't know much about Astrology, but from what I understand, our real I, or essence, exists independently of even such celestial influences. We can only catch very small glimpses of it, generally in states of moral bankruptcy. I'm curious as to how, roughly, you think that astrology could be used in such a way?

In G's cosmology, the Moon is the 'growing point' or 'tip' of the ray of creation. The Psychological aspect of this is our Essence, or Real I...that which must grow, or the 'branch' will wither and die.

Personality exists relatively independently of celestial influences, from the perspective of Astrology. What we know of today as a Natal Chart, symbolically represents our essence. OSIT

Kris

 

[anart]

In a sense, the portions in bold in the above quote remind me of astrology and the various transits that are often associated with the changes people experience during such times. For example the moon is often associated with moods and moods in particular can have a strong impact on a person's perception, what he is focused on and so what he's predominately "aware" of, OSIT. If such a connection between planetary influences and human awareness is real, are there any forms of astrology that would provide clues as to a person's true un-shifting personality, or the real "I"?

I think that's a bit of a distraction from the point. There are a few discussions about astrology and how corrupted it is in its current form on the forum if you'd like to search for them. The idea here in context of the current discussion and 'In Search of the Miraculous' is that a person can, with practice and work, learn to observe their own shifting inner landscape and, thus, learn to master it. Have you read 'In Search of the Miraculous' by Ouspensky?

 

[Piscarian]

That may be part of it, yes, but there are an uncountable number of 'A' influences assaulting us in everyday life. Anything from a big argument, to a pretty girl smiling at us, to the sun moving behind the clouds, can change our state, shifting around the little 'i's.

I don't know much about Astrology, but from what I understand, our real I, or essence, exists independently of even such celestial influences. We can only catch very small glimpses of it, generally in states of moral bankruptcy. I'm curious as to how, roughly, you think that astrology could be used in such a way?

Based on my present level of understanding, it seems to me that the process of identifying the various "i"s is something that takes place in a somewhat random way, sort of hit and miss. My thinking was that if some consistent measure or marker was available that would allow a person to observe his various states of mind over time in relation to what are similar circumstances, the data acquired in the form of recorded observations might at some point create a sort of mosaic of the various "i"s (personalities) as an aid to grasping the real "I" (essence). It appears to me that to an extent, regardless of various interpretations that people use , for an individual observing his own reactions to the same background influences associated with a chosen astrological configuration, that particular configuration could serve as a standard theme in comparing the changes in his reactions over time, possibly creating a tangible record of his various "i"s . At least that is what I was hoping to explore.

I think that's a bit of a distraction from the point. There are a few discussions about astrology and how corrupted it is in its current form on the forum if you'd like to search for them. The idea here in context of the current discussion and 'In Search of the Miraculous' is that a person can, with practice and work, learn to observe their own shifting inner landscape and, thus, learn to master it. Have you read 'In Search of the Miraculous' by Ouspensky?

No, I haven't read ISOTM. Most of what I know of Gurdjieff is what I've gathered from the forum. Since my initial posting I have learned that Gurdjieff didn't consider astrology as being very useful in sorting out personality issues. If in developing such an approach a person set out to reinvent the wheel, a corrupted one at that, it would be a distraction. So it sounds like what you are saying is , stick with the book.

 

[anart]

No, I haven't read ISOTM. Most of what I know of Gurdjieff is what I've gathered from the forum. Since my initial posting I have learned that Gurdjieff didn't consider astrology as being very useful in sorting out personality issues. If in developing such an approach a person set out to reinvent the wheel, a corrupted one at that, it would be a distraction. So it sounds like what you are saying is , stick with the book.

Or, at least, start with the book. It's really a very good one - fascinating in fact. I think you'll get a lot out of it.

 

[Piscarian]

Or, at least, start with the book. It's really a very good one - fascinating in fact. I think you'll get a lot out of it.

Okay, thanks for the input.

 

[Mike]

That may be part of it, yes, but there are an uncountable number of 'A' influences assaulting us in everyday life. Anything from a big argument, to a pretty girl smiling at us, to the sun moving behind the clouds, can change our state, shifting around the little 'i's.

I don't know much about Astrology, but from what I understand, our real I, or essence, exists independently of even such celestial influences. We can only catch very small glimpses of it, generally in states of moral bankruptcy. I'm curious as to how, roughly, you think that astrology could be used in such a way?

Based on my present level of understanding, it seems to me that the process of identifying the various "i"s is something that takes place in a somewhat random way, sort of hit and miss. My thinking was that if some consistent measure or marker was available that would allow a person to observe his various states of mind over time in relation to what are similar circumstances, the data acquired in the form of recorded observations might at some point create a sort of mosaic of the various "i"s (personalities) as an aid to grasping the real "I" (essence). It appears to me that to an extent, regardless of various interpretations that people use , for an individual observing his own reactions to the same background influences associated with a chosen astrological configuration, that particular configuration could serve as a standard theme in comparing the changes in his reactions over time, possibly creating a tangible record of his various "i"s . At least that is what I was hoping to explore.

My bold above. I've been thinking about this lately after being introduced to the tool of a 'thought record' utilized in cognitive behavior therapy. If you google 'cbt thought record' (here is one example - http://ohsheglows.com/2011/11/02/how-to-reframe-a-negative-thought-with-a-thought-record/, there are many examples and explanations for use of such a record. What I have been thinking about is changing the thought record to reflect an application to the work with columns of identified little i's, programs, possible reasons for the program and other columns that might be applicable to help with obtaining what was stated above in bold. Maybe something like this would be of use to you. Journaling might also be of use, but what I have in mind has more structure to it.

 

[Piscarian]

Based on my present level of understanding, it seems to me that the process of identifying the various "i"s is something that takes place in a somewhat random way, sort of hit and miss. My thinking was that if some consistent measure or marker was available that would allow a person to observe his various states of mind over time in relation to what are similar circumstances, the data acquired in the form of recorded observations might at some point create a sort of mosaic of the various "i"s (personalities) as an aid to grasping the real "I" (essence). It appears to me that to an extent, regardless of various interpretations that people use , for an individual observing his own reactions to the same background influences associated with a chosen astrological configuration, that particular configuration could serve as a standard theme in comparing the changes in his reactions over time, possibly creating a tangible record of his various "i"s . At least that is what I was hoping to explore.

My bold above. I've been thinking about this lately after being introduced to the tool of a 'thought record' utilized in cognitive behavior therapy. If you google 'cbt thought record' (here is one example - http://ohsheglows.com/2011/11/02/how-to-reframe-a-negative-thought-with-a-thought-record/, there are many examples and explanations for use of such a record. What I have been thinking about is changing the thought record to reflect an application to the work with columns of identified little i's, programs, possible reasons for the program and other columns that might be applicable to help with obtaining what was stated above in bold. Maybe something like this would be of use to you. Journaling might also be of use, but what I have in mind has more structure to it.

Looks interesting Bear, some of the ideas presented in the link that you provided relate well to what I was contemplating. It could be that your approach is better than trying to use astrology. I was looking for a way to bring more structure to the process as well, and this may be it. Thanks for the information.

 

[Mike]

If you are already trying to observe the self, I think an exercise and technique such as the modified thought record gives the advantage of recognizing thinking (negative automatic thoughts, programs, little i's) and applying analytical thought to the various situations. I think keeping and charting the thought record is very much a process of applying logic to reactions and states of mind that are very often times illogical and may help to get at the root of various programs etc. If you have read any of the cognitive science threads - Thinking, Fast and Slow http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=26334.0, this to me would equate to applying system 2 slow thinking (the analytical mind) to what our automatic system 1 fast thinking spits out in various situations that we are programmed to react to in a certain way from upbringing, etc. Though I guess one thing to be aware of in the process would be the possibility of building a false narrative with the analytical mind (system 2 fast thinking) to explain the system 1 thinking and reaction.