Laura's Book "From Paul to Mark" is out!!!! ... And in French too

mbww said:
Of course, if you want to prove your thesis and deny any historical proof validity in the gospels as post-factum and deem the few historical references as late additions and insist on proofs as in ‘Jesus was here’ - there may be not much contemporary proof left to turn out, it’s like saying today if it’s not on TV it didn’t happen. I suppose it doesn’t count for you either Old Testament prophecies, any later exegeses or historical attestations, even Quran mentions, documented spiritual and mystical experiences over the ages or any reveal, an entire angelology that attests and reveres the name of Jesus, theologists, theosophists, esoterists and alchemists, Trinity principles embedded in sacred geometry, architecture and works of art, mediums like Edgar Cayce and channeling entities, all confirming the Jesus that we know from the Gospels. The Ra complex and Q’uo communications as documented in the Law of One and other L/L Research Group sessions have drilled into the historicity issue perhaps more than needed. Here’s one excerpt:
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Nothing you mentioned there counts as actual historical evidence. It's either unverifiable mysticism/propaganda (prophecies, channeling), or later work taking the gospels as primary source material (and therefore categorically not independent evidence).

Citing mystical experiences rather misses the point that the subtle realms communicate on the level of metaphor using imagery that the mind in question can recognize. Thus, if the mind believes Jesus of Nazareth was real, then this frame will be used to communicate the core spiritual data ... which, to a certain degree, can be done even if the receiver is corrupted by incorrect information. Another way to put it: people need to be met where they are.

So like, I don't know what to tell you, man. The gospel accounts (and for that matter, the OT) are completely inconsistent both with other historical records and with whatever archeological data is available. They make obvious literary allusions. They're filled with material which is either in violation of physical law or extremely historically or psychologically implausible. All the evidence points to their being fiction. You seem to be extremely reluctant to see that, and are instead more or less saying "nuh uh the gospels are real history" because, I guess, you want to believe they are. Which in turn maybe comes from internalization of the corrupted meaning of faith, that it comes down to "source: just trust me bro" as some kind of spiritual virtue.
 
Thank you Goemon.
Also as things are not so anxious behind a cover when it's written plainly.

"From WikipediA: The word dēnārius is derived from the Latin dēnī "containing ten", as its value was originally of 10 assēs.[note 1] The word for "money" descends from it in Italian (denaro), Slovene (denar), Portuguese (dinheiro), and Spanish (dinero). Its name also survives in the dinar currency."
Also Russian(Деньги).
 
luc said:
BTW, I never understood why most Christian denominations still insist on the historical Jesus as described in the Gospels. There is a lot of good stuff and truth still in Christianity, and all of it is derived from taking the Gospels and the bible in general as metaphors, and trying to make sense of it intelligently, using both one's own understanding and experience as well as possibly higher inspiration/God's living word. That's what good preachers do, what wise Christians do, what people like Jordan Peterson do. Getting to the historical truth of the matter is a different story.
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Great observation, so why bother with the historical narrative when the moral story is good enough? Just take the ideas and open source the narrative. After all, the entire Bible (OT+NT) can be taken as metaphors, everyone’s free to make whatever they want of them stories and live by the moral ideas from those stories as from Aesop fables. And that’s in fact the case for modern thinking most of the time, it’s all dipping the toes at surface level. It’s a buffet where everyone can take what they wish, create their own narrative and look smart or educated. If you're trying to go deeper, however, it becomes more complicated. Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins - they’re the same, only sitting at different sides of the table, both have answers to everything, and the entire quest for meaning is just a debate.

First off, you can’t just swap Bible characters and ignore facts (as reported) as you please and think it can work just as well or better. Facts and characters are there for a reason as distorted as they may seem to you. If you look at the Bible from the perspective of the Judaic narrative starting with the Creation and then chosen people and its messianic beliefs and Yahweh the jealous father-figure God and later with the manifestation of Christ liberating conscience, it’s all a staging that becomes more elaborate of a purpose-driven existence, and you feel like tagging along just because we learn things that resonate in a way or another, beyond culture or status. There are different levels of perception and there could have been different ways of chiseling the archetypes and wrapping up the narrative, but it is what it is, and just to give credit to what’s in there, as a collective effort. Secondly, if you disconsider the narrative, you’re missing important clues. The individuals, numbers mentioned in there and specific actions have meaning and dynamics. Take for instance Jesus' genealogy of 14+14+14 generations from Abraham. 42 is one of the numbers that signify completion and also can be found in astrological cycles (Jupiter, Uranus). Torah has been handed over from generation to generation without an iota change. And thirdly, a world based only on an ethical system of beliefs without an external agency to look up to and a higher purpose to aim for is just an ecosystem. It’s Plato’s ideal city, sort of Singapore today where everything seems well tuned and everybody lives a comfy life, or the Amazon rainforest biosphere where plants and animals and sponges live in perfect harmony.

And yet, what’s the historical placement got to do with it? That could well be assimilated at spiritual level, without all the fuss and drama.
Not really. Firstly, we should take in consideration that we, as we stand today, are not the same as the people living 2000 years ago. The understanding that we have today is different than then. Secondly, it does take a nexus for any complex system to evolve. That is a placement in space and time, Archimedes point needed to lever the earth, the collapsing of the wave in one single particle, Dee’s hieroglyphic monad, the Logos of each creation that has the blueprint and is the engine that’s powering it. And that has to be as real as it gets, otherwise it’s just a potentiality. That is what the Messiah/Christ manifestation in real flesh and blood as historical Jesus just was. Because we live in a density construct that has certain characteristics and limitations, while at the same time we have free will, it had to be an enactment, a human embodiment subject to the same laws while containing the design, principles and consciousness of Creation and be one with the Creator, to make for the perfect example. A simple revelation just wouldn’t cut it, as in God didn’t send an e-mail. It is not by chance that the specifics of Jesus narrative are spelled out in the Nicene Creed with details and spatial-temporal coordinates, they’re essential for anchoring and belief:
… for our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.

Yeah, but there were other traditions and religions with death and rebirth ideas, even monotheistic in nature, civilizing heroes and so forth... that was nothing new.
Not as in Christianism where God, as in the Almighty God - not some archon or local area god - takes the shape of earthlings and becomes one of them to give them a boost and assurance of life after death and promise of the heavenly kingdom, with proof of concept. Not as in pantheism either where all is one in declarative language, we the humans are being approached in an imperative manner and being given a promotion. We are elevated from the natural world level. If you read Paul sufficiently enough, you get the sense that his theology was in fact about this transformation, not about suffering or petty sectarian squabbles. Off with the old, in with the new. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith (1 Cor).

Still, why would this conscience become manifest in one guy named Jesus cca two millennia ago in a provincial neck of the woods Judea, it could have been Prometheus, or Caesar or Enki or Quetzalcoatl or Steve Jobs (my favorite civilizing god:-))?
The simplest answer other than belief: it’s just the best story we have that connects all the dots and has all the pebbles in place - all the other ones fall short. We as human species are meant to follow a course that leads to us becoming co-participants. It has also proven a reliable ground for 2000 years, for the spiritual, cultural and technological evolvement of humanity. I’ll take it and build upon it rather than seeking to re-invent the wheel, or make my own alternative version, or build from scratch a new universe MCU-style. You think the Christian history is flawed? Try digging into Islam's history or any other religion and reconcile historical facts, characters and beliefs. A religious narrative is just a referential system, it’s the faith and reasoning that matter and how you assimilate and translate that information and act on it going forward. It’s the action and results that matter. Take what works for you: if you feel like Caesar is my homie - go for him. If you think that you have all the data and judgment capacity and ability to overcome difficulties and whatever life throws at you based on an ethical system and without a story-based belief and any personal touch and all that historical stuff and drama - carry on. If you’re seeking for something a bit more sophisticated, like having a purpose as in being an actor not just a spectator and kind of resonate with a particular drama that's playing on the big cosmic stage with all its pointers and cross-references and all things considered… then you’re on the right path. If you’ve reached that level of consciousness and love and illumination without adhering to any belief system or syncing with of any Jesus or Christ or even having heard of - good for you. Although it’s also good to know that there is a direct line and “we are not alone” out there in the wide Universe, just in case.
 
mbww said:
Great observation, so why bother with the historical narrative when the moral story is good enough?
Click to expand...

You missed the part, that you even quoted, where I said: "Getting to the historical truth of the matter is a different story."

And no, not all interpretations are equal, whether we are dealing with fiction or theology. Because some interpretation have a true spiritual thrust, so are true on a higher level, whereas others are based on low, materialist thinking, no matter how sophisticated they sound.
 
mbww said:
Great observation, so why bother with the historical narrative when the moral story is good enough? Just take the ideas and open source the narrative. After all, the entire Bible (OT+NT) can be taken as metaphors, everyone’s free to make whatever they want of them stories and live by the moral ideas from those stories as from Aesop fables. And that’s in fact the case for modern thinking most of the time, it’s all dipping the toes at surface level. It’s a buffet where everyone can take what they wish, create their own narrative and look smart or educated. If you're trying to go deeper, however, it becomes more complicated. Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins - they’re the same, only sitting at different sides of the table, both have answers to everything, and the entire quest for meaning is just a debate.

First off, you can’t just swap Bible characters and ignore facts (as reported) as you please and think it can work just as well or better. Facts and characters are there for a reason as distorted as they may seem to you. If you look at the Bible from the perspective of the Judaic narrative starting with the Creation and then chosen people and its messianic beliefs and Yahweh the jealous father-figure God and later with the manifestation of Christ liberating conscience, it’s all a staging that becomes more elaborate of a purpose-driven existence, and you feel like tagging along just because we learn things that resonate in a way or another, beyond culture or status. There are different levels of perception and there could have been different ways of chiseling the archetypes and wrapping up the narrative, but it is what it is, and just to give credit to what’s in there, as a collective effort. Secondly, if you disconsider the narrative, you’re missing important clues. The individuals, numbers mentioned in there and specific actions have meaning and dynamics. Take for instance Jesus' genealogy of 14+14+14 generations from Abraham. 42 is one of the numbers that signify completion and also can be found in astrological cycles (Jupiter, Uranus). Torah has been handed over from generation to generation without an iota change. And thirdly, a world based only on an ethical system of beliefs without an external agency to look up to and a higher purpose to aim for is just an ecosystem. It’s Plato’s ideal city, sort of Singapore today where everything seems well tuned and everybody lives a comfy life, or the Amazon rainforest biosphere where plants and animals and sponges live in perfect harmony.

And yet, what’s the historical placement got to do with it? That could well be assimilated at spiritual level, without all the fuss and drama.
Not really. Firstly, we should take in consideration that we, as we stand today, are not the same as the people living 2000 years ago. The understanding that we have today is different than then. Secondly, it does take a nexus for any complex system to evolve. That is a placement in space and time, Archimedes point needed to lever the earth, the collapsing of the wave in one single particle, Dee’s hieroglyphic monad, the Logos of each creation that has the blueprint and is the engine that’s powering it. And that has to be as real as it gets, otherwise it’s just a potentiality. That is what the Messiah/Christ manifestation in real flesh and blood as historical Jesus just was. Because we live in a density construct that has certain characteristics and limitations, while at the same time we have free will, it had to be an enactment, a human embodiment subject to the same laws while containing the design, principles and consciousness of Creation and be one with the Creator, to make for the perfect example. A simple revelation just wouldn’t cut it, as in God didn’t send an e-mail. It is not by chance that the specifics of Jesus narrative are spelled out in the Nicene Creed with details and spatial-temporal coordinates, they’re essential for anchoring and belief:
… for our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.

Yeah, but there were other traditions and religions with death and rebirth ideas, even monotheistic in nature, civilizing heroes and so forth... that was nothing new.
Not as in Christianism where God, as in the Almighty God - not some archon or local area god - takes the shape of earthlings and becomes one of them to give them a boost and assurance of life after death and promise of the heavenly kingdom, with proof of concept. Not as in pantheism either where all is one in declarative language, we the humans are being approached in an imperative manner and being given a promotion. We are elevated from the natural world level. If you read Paul sufficiently enough, you get the sense that his theology was in fact about this transformation, not about suffering or petty sectarian squabbles. Off with the old, in with the new. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith (1 Cor).

Still, why would this conscience become manifest in one guy named Jesus cca two millennia ago in a provincial neck of the woods Judea, it could have been Prometheus, or Caesar or Enki or Quetzalcoatl or Steve Jobs (my favorite civilizing god:-))?
The simplest answer other than belief: it’s just the best story we have that connects all the dots and has all the pebbles in place - all the other ones fall short. We as human species are meant to follow a course that leads to us becoming co-participants. It has also proven a reliable ground for 2000 years, for the spiritual, cultural and technological evolvement of humanity. I’ll take it and build upon it rather than seeking to re-invent the wheel, or make my own alternative version, or build from scratch a new universe MCU-style. You think the Christian history is flawed? Try digging into Islam's history or any other religion and reconcile historical facts, characters and beliefs. A religious narrative is just a referential system, it’s the faith and reasoning that matter and how you assimilate and translate that information and act on it going forward. It’s the action and results that matter. Take what works for you: if you feel like Caesar is my homie - go for him. If you think that you have all the data and judgment capacity and ability to overcome difficulties and whatever life throws at you based on an ethical system and without a story-based belief and any personal touch and all that historical stuff and drama - carry on. If you’re seeking for something a bit more sophisticated, like having a purpose as in being an actor not just a spectator and kind of resonate with a particular drama that's playing on the big cosmic stage with all its pointers and cross-references and all things considered… then you’re on the right path. If you’ve reached that level of consciousness and love and illumination without adhering to any belief system or syncing with of any Jesus or Christ or even having heard of - good for you. Although it’s also good to know that there is a direct line and “we are not alone” out there in the wide Universe, just in case.
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mbww, I would engage in this discussion if it was worth the time and energy; it isn't. Everything you have brought up is answered or dealt with in the book, FPTM. It seems to me that you have NOT read it, or if you think you have, that you did not read with comprehension, or there is some intellectual deficiency in you that prevents you being able to discern between facts and fantasy. Perhaps it is just a lack of education, a failure to understand historical methodology and why such methodology is necessary and useful.

I'm not trying to be insulting here; in fact, the fact that you write as though you have NOT read a book that you claim to have read, is rather insulting to me. So I can only conclude that you are either not being entirely honest, or there is something defective in your understanding of the written word and the world of meaning.
 
Yeah, it's obvious he didn't read it. I mean, if he did it was in record time. One can hardly get through the first two hundred pages with any comprehension in the amount of time mbww claims to have read it. Unless he somehow had access to it earlier than the rest of us but read without understanding what he was reading.
 
genero81 said:
Yeah, it's obvious he didn't read it. I mean, if he did it was in record time. One can hardly get through the first two hundred pages with any comprehension in the amount of time mbww claims to have read it. Unless he somehow had access to it earlier than the rest of us but read without understanding what he was reading.
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I share the same thinking. I started reading the book last week and I am on page 75. My point is that this book is so dense with a lot of information that sometimes I have to reread some sentences a few times in order to understand them completely.

For this book, one needs its complete intellectual apparatus to be engaged while reading.
I can't read this book at the same pace as I read novels. It is a totally different reading process.
 
genero81 said:
Yeah, it's obvious he didn't read it. I mean, if he did it was in record time. One can hardly get through the first two hundred pages with any comprehension in the amount of time mbww claims to have read it. Unless he somehow had access to it earlier than the rest of us but read without understanding what he was reading.
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I was thinking the same thing. It’s not an ‘easy’ read and requires concentration and focus to get into the groove to comprehend and follow the lines of thought expressed. I wonder if he just skimmed through the book really quickly, all the while holding onto his sacred cows.
 
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mbww said:
If you look at the Bible from the perspective of the Judaic narrative starting with the Creation and then chosen people and its messianic beliefs and Yahweh the jealous father-figure God and later with the manifestation of Christ liberating conscience, it’s all a staging that becomes more elaborate of a purpose-driven existence, and you feel like tagging along just because we learn things that resonate in a way or another, beyond culture or status.
Click to expand...
It's completely schizophrenic and makes any thinking people want to pull their hair out you mean.

God COMPLETELY changes his nature between the Torah and the NT and we're all supposed to just along with it and not ask any questions.

mbww said:
Try digging into Islam's history or any other religion and reconcile historical facts, characters and beliefs
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Yeah, a sick tribe of inbred demon-worshippers not too different from the Jews that also made up and lied about half of their religion and actively encourages its members to abandon logic and just "submit." At least official Churchianity made overtures to the logical tradition of the Greeks from time to time.
 
mbww, you seem to have a Dawkins like approach - the mainstream narratives tell you all you need to know, no use looking anywhere else.

Just like, CNN tells you all you need to know about the world. No need to go anywhere else, or ask any other questions.

After a while your posts just become noise.
 
mbww: "Secondly, if you disconsider the narrative, you’re missing important clues. The individuals, numbers mentioned in there and specific actions have meaning and dynamics. Take for instance Jesus' genealogy of 14+14+14 generations from Abraham. 42 is one of the numbers that signify completion and also can be found in astrological cycles (Jupiter, Uranus). "
...
Hi, speaking of what is considered clues are similar or the 'very' remnants of the true to the origin that may open to other hidden and buried truths that has actual teachings or a right direction to the very essences of what is and related to the truth. Surface clues are double nature usually, one leads to wishful thinking and perpetuating the lies, by the cosmic nature of it's opposite the other, leads to the truer or the reality or the objective a sincere intent on distinguishing truth from lies and learning about the true story, and not only. And yet the lies surrounding or the false narrative are, and in embedded in a story is, apart different in nature, and a layer of obfuscation to the correctness and righteousness it's genuineness of the truth the reality.
The icing on the cake is the the cheap narrative and can say what it wants by cheap plastic letters and any can take those letter and words or even relate or elevate them to something else cheap or unrelated truth that's not on the cake and call them clues to the moon if one wishes. Yet lost with others is thrilling, savoring moments they are the fun of life relations. Basking in the moon shadow of dreams. Yet if one wants to know the ingredients take much more effort. For the carrot cake was healthy before they ruined it with sugar free icing. The lie needs an alibi to appear solidified or to appear holy or to appear in the likes of fostering beliefs in the viewers and to obscure the truth or reality. Like a matrix. It still needs bits of truth to make entanglements as it's nots like the moon need the sun to forecast it's moon lite nights.
And yeah' this has happen to other religions also. Seems the system went into serious resitting, rewriting and a rapid trigger redactions of the truths and I guess the bigger the lie the greater the actual story meanfulness.
misspelled a wrd. The o and not 0. Pretty close on one end, the square peg do not fit the round hole.
 
Laura said:
mbww, I would engage in this discussion if it was worth the time and energy; it isn't. Everything you have brought up is answered or dealt with in the book, FPTM. It seems to me that you have NOT read it, or if you think you have, that you did not read with comprehension, or there is some intellectual deficiency in you that prevents you being able to discern between facts and fantasy. Perhaps it is just a lack of education, a failure to understand historical methodology and why such methodology is necessary and useful.

I'm not trying to be insulting here; in fact, the fact that you write as though you have NOT read a book that you claim to have read, is rather insulting to me. So I can only conclude that you are either not being entirely honest, or there is something defective in your understanding of the written word and the world of meaning.
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I’m sorry if you felt that way, I didn’t mean any insult, and if you think that I misunderstood or missed details in the book I apologize and I’m moving on - just please don't take it personally.

As an exegesis with all its methodology I recognized your effort, as well as touching on the theological and spiritual aspect of Christian doctrine, Zoroastrism, Judaism et al. My only contention was with taking Jesus out of the picture - I was hoping for a plot twist till the end… If your aim was the truth and nothing but the truth, I get that, and it’s a noble mission to embark on. I think that’s what you think I didn’t understand. I expressed my doubts about such an endeavor however, my view being that aiming for the “historical truth” challenging the generally-established narrative is probably not the most important thing to focus one's energies on. When you deal with such a complex phenomenon like religion and especially Christianity there are multiple layers that extend to the other realms and the reality may not be as linear as we perceive it and accessible with our current reasoning and investigative methods, so….maybe we should try to tackle the subject from different angles and be less concerned about fact-checking every detail we encounter, because the sum is more than its parts!?

I wish I could read your book before its publication, and perhaps could make some suggestions. A good editor would have made some observations along the lines of my previous notes: “Look, the book is well researched and written, however, throwing baby Jesus with the bath water drastically reduces the area of exploration and you may be left with limited options… Are you sure you wanna take that route?” You could have included a preface note saying: “This is an attempt to revisit the Christ myth theory with a personal angle, I've been sitting on the idea for years, here's my take”. Punch line/conclusion goes in the opening nowadays (whether it’s jokes or serious stuff), so I would have suggested starting with the Caesar scene rather than leaving it for the end in the cliffhanger tradition of Agatha Christie detective style...that’s old school.

As for the next book, if I may suggest try to delve deeper into the real forces (metaphysical, psychological or of other nature) that have shaped Christianity into a religion: ‘From Golgotha to Google - How Christianity became the dominant religious force for two millennia from a failed messianic cult to the church-state complex’; Or, ‘Was it pre-ordained? - Why Christianity prevailed in spite of all nonsense and conventional wisdom’; ‘Optimal religion? - An investigation into how humanity's consciousness was advanced (or slowed down) by Judeo-Christianity’.

To give you one cue: I’ve been thinking a lot about the Last Supper. One of the most iconic scenes. There's so much to its iconography (the numbers/count, the pose, the windows triptych in the background, the symmetry, the angles) - how could Da Vinci and other artists and builders later on have known and adhered to so many hidden clues and symbols from the perennial Tradition and incorporate them in their Christian-related works? Was it by chance, inspiration or secret knowledge?

But, the detail that intrigued me the most was a detail in the Scriptures: the actual dinner event - which was the final initiatory act just before the crucifixion - took place in an upscale mansion, belonging to an unknown benefactor. The ownership of the house is unclear, while Acts suggests it could have been Mary the mother of John Mark of the later gospel fame, the synoptic Gospels (Mark 14:15; Luke 22:12) refer in a somewhat conspiratorial tone to ‘the Master of the house’, i.e. a male, and to the ‘the Upper Room’.
So, whose house was it anyway or what’s the deal with that house? (Which apparently still stands today just outside the Old City.)

It could have been one of Jesus' early adepts (adopters), a well-to-do gent. Some have suggested it was Nicodemus, who also provided for the proper burial after crucifixion and seemed to have been very much ‘in the know’ after the private conversation he had with Jesus one night (he’s revered in Christianity by the way just like Joseph of Arimathea, although he was a member of the Pharisee class and there’s little known about him after).
Or..., it could have been that the incipient religion with its Protagonist was being looked upon and cultivated from its early stages by an elite in the know, similarly to how angel VC investors nurture a startup before it goes into a funding series, because they see the potential for disruption or have a deeper insight about the future evolution, conditions and business prospects. Like the Magi who were able to trace down baby Jesus even before the aeon shift set in motion entered its final phase?
J.G. Bennett who was friends with Gurdjieff, has a chapter in Masters of Wisdom dedicated to Jesus and different schools of initiation and magi in the Eastern and Central Asia area perpetuating the wisdom tradition, who were kind of overseeing and keeping tabs on what’s going on and coming up in terms of times and their astrological cycles.

If that’s the case, perhaps we should take a step back and rethink: maybe we’ve spent too much time on gossip and drama rather than focusing on the underpinning reality and its objectives, and failed to connect the dots.
 
Konstantin said:
I share the same thinking. I started reading the book last week and I am on page 75. My point is that this book is so dense with a lot of information that sometimes I have to reread some sentences a few times in order to understand them completely.

For this book, one needs its complete intellectual apparatus to be engaged while reading.
I can't read this book at the same pace as I read novels. It is a totally different reading process.
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I agree, In fact I'm stuck on the chapter about Josephus because he has been one of the architects of narratives constructed around the name of Jesus; the problem with this is that common people take for granted what some historians write, without wondering whether it is accurate or not, ignoring the fact that a historian may have an agenda due to tendencies (deviations) of thought (mostly political) or personality which can be of various types, narcissism, sociopathic among others.
 
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