NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

[Yas]

{...}

Yet, I know the world requires some level of attentiveness, let me give you another example, after the second session I went to walk my dogs, and usually I would be ahead of my steps... specially since where I live there’s a lot of dog owners and not all of them are responsible to pick up their dogs doings. But this time I was in such a state that I stepped on one of those doings and didn’t even notice until much later xD, and I wasn’t particularly upset about it.

So what I am trying to say, and it’s somewhat related to what you’re describing Gaby, is that rewiring your brain necesitares you to relearn some of these things consciously now. Maybe the world isn’t out to get me always, so I don’t need to prepare for doom everytime I walk my dogs or drive through certain parts of town, but going out there just feeling like everything is beautiful and safe could turn into a nuisance or trouble.

But this unconscious anxiety had been the only way for me to respond to some of this possible dangers, so removing it or regulating it feels foreign, and it adds extra security. A security that needs to be questioned and determined to a certain extent.

Situational awereness doesn’t need to be a constant state of flight-fight, but acceptance and faith in the universe doesn’t need to be a happy careless walk in the world either. Balance between this faith and awereness of the dangers, married with application of knowledge about said dangers, is perhaps the goal.

And I am shocked that I never felt it so real before, I could always articulate it intellectually, but not until recently did it feel real.

I hope the above makes sense.

It totally makes sense Alejo! Thanks for putting it into words. I was telling this to my dad the other day after a session, because even though I do notice the improvement in anxiety and that shift in perception, I'm also a bit more clumsy in a few things. So I was thinking that I kind of had to make a constant effort to not be clumsy and it's like my brain is less stressed so it's more "childlike" I'd say. And I kind of have to relearn to be more attentive, not based on anxiety and fear but on awareness (?).

Anyways, I think that it is good to cultivate that necessary balance you mention.

Another interesting thing happened today that I think could be attributed to NO. I had to do a presentation and that sort of things usually makes me really nervous and anxious. This time it was different in a way that is difficult to explain but I'll do my best. Although I did feel anxious, it was as if this anxiety didn't fill me completely, as if there was a space between my "awareness" and the anxiety I was feeling in my body and so there was one part of me where that fear couldn't get anymore, or something like that.

When I realised this I explained it to myself as a process of not identifying with these feelings... like being able to be aware of them but not "merging" with them, so to say. For me that was pretty impressive because even though I've read so many times about practicing this, I think I never experienced it in such a clear manner. And it makes sense to me as a little help to be able to Work better. I mean, it's not that I'm anxiety or fear free but it seems that there is this little space now that allows for a better regulation and therefore more ability to navigate intense emotions. As some of you mentioned, work is necessary, and NO is not a magic wand, but it helps free up some resources for that work, I suppose.

I also think this could be a little example of the "rewiring" that may be prompted by NO. Because of that space between the anxiety and my awareness of it, I could tell that there was no actual threat or strong reasons to be afraid, yet my body reacted much quicker and therefore it was like a "recorded emotional reaction", it was there because that's how I'm used to react, but it isn't a useful reaction for this situation. So I guess it makes part of that process of learning, cognitively and physiologically too... like from the top-down and the bottom-up.

What I find interesting about it is that, since this happened after 5 days of my last session, it seems that some days of space between sessions to learn things such as these and put them into practice, can be a good approach for a good assimilation, as Chu mentioned. But, yes, as with most things, it might depend a lot on each person.

Edit: Spelling

 

[PERLOU]

Article SOTT France concernant le NEUOFEEDBACK :
https://fr.sott.net/article/31999-Le-neurofeedback-ca-marche

 

[Laura]

I had my 6th session day before yesterday. Yesterday was pretty good but I had sort of an episode of ruminating and anxiety last night.

So, I had my 7th session today and afterwards I had a bit of a headache. We'll see what the long term effects are.

 

[PERLOU]

Heureuse d'avoir de vos nouvelles LAURA, je m'inquiétais et vous ai laissé un message perso sur le forum...
Prenez bien soin de Vous...

Happy to have your news LAURA, I was worried and left you a personal message on the forum...
Take good care of yourself...

 

[herondancer]

I've had 14 sessions now, and while the effects have been varied (small headaches, fatigue, etc) overall, I'm really happy with NO. The constant feeling of waiting for the (unknown) other shoe to drop is nearly gone. It wasn't quite a sense of impending doom, but not far from it.

I'm leaning to a preverbal stage to explain most of it. My parents were pretty stressed when I was a toddler. My mom had four kids right in a row after me, so to my perception, the house was in constant chaos, until most of us were able to talk. I didn't alwaysunderstand what was going on, or what would set my mom off. One of my siblings was very sickly as a baby too, and nearly died twice before I was four. So even more stress in the house.

A story about not overdoing things. Last Wednesday I had a rolfing hour which had been scheduled a couple of months before. The same day was my reiki group, and also a NO session. Boy, I felt great! The next day in the late afternoon as I was working on the computer, I suddenly got so tired I could hardly keep my eyes open. I went to lay down ("just for a minute"), and ended up sleeping almost four hours. I got up for about three hours and then slept another eight.

When the brain wants a break, the brain wants a break!

 

[Ollie]

... then slept another eight.

When the brain wants a break, the brain wants a break!

I had my second session of NO yesterday. This time during the session I kept awake! As before, I had wet eyes at the end and felt calm and rested. Afterwards, I had a feeling of intense hunger. And, last night I slept for 7 hours solid (almost unheard of) with no dream awareness.

So. I guess "When the brain wants a break, the brain wants a break!"

 

[seek10]

I've had 14 sessions now, and while the effects have been varied (small headaches, fatigue, etc) overall, I'm really happy with NO. The constant feeling of waiting for the (unknown) other shoe to drop is nearly gone. It wasn't quite a sense of impending doom, but not far from it.

I'm leaning to a preverbal stage to explain most of it. My parents were pretty stressed when I was a toddler. My mom had four kids right in a row after me, so to my perception, the house was in constant chaos, until most of us were able to talk. I didn't alwaysunderstand what was going on, or what would set my mom off. One of my siblings was very sickly as a baby too, and nearly died twice before I was four. So even more stress in the house.

A story about not overdoing things. Last Wednesday I had a rolfing hour which had been scheduled a couple of months before. The same day was my reiki group, and also a NO session. Boy, I felt great! The next day in the late afternoon as I was working on the computer, I suddenly got so tired I could hardly keep my eyes open. I went to lay down ("just for a minute"), and ended up sleeping almost four hours. I got up for about three hours and then slept another eight.

When the brain wants a break, the brain wants a break!

Thank you for mentioning this. I too observed this pattern of sudden unrecognized tiredness popping up and sleeping for hours, while hoping to sleep for .5 hr. Though I observed this before NO, it was more pronounced after the NO. Particularly, If I do nueroptimal more often than once in every 2 days.

 

[Ennio]

I've now had about 14 sessions of NO, and its positive effects seem to me unmistakable. First though I'll mention that a couple of weeks ago I had a small bout of eye twitching that has only previously happened under prolonged and extreme stress. And since I wasn't feeling particularly stressed out at the time (at least not consciously), I wondered if this was just something else that was being 'released' or worked out somehow as a result of the sessions.

As for sleep, (and as recommended here) I have had to now include GABA and greatly increase the dosage of melatonin to my bedtime regimen, otherwise I can completely forget about getting more than 5 hours of sleep per night. This has seemed to work and I can now get as much as 7 - 9 hours of uninterrupted sleep, if needed.

On perhaps the more subjective end of things, I've been listening to music a bit more lately and making up themes while driving, getting ready to go to sleep, doing tasks, etc. Like I'm just craving beautiful music more than usual. Also noticed some things similar to what Alejo has mentioned; as though the structure of my daily experience has changed somewhat. And as though my peripheral vision has widened some (I've noticed this a number of times now), but also like there have been some emotional and thinking pathways that seem less 'predetermined' or habitual, and diffused somewhat.

Another way of saying this is that I feel a bit more present and less 'in my head'. But if that's true then I'm finding what Gaby recently said also true. And that is that there are reactions and responses to things I sometimes have that do still require some amount of work on myself. So while the NO seems to hold promise for less stress/anxiety in general and maybe a richer daily experience - sometimes life just requires calling some less than desirable emotions by name, looking at the cause of them, and working to be less subject to those causes. OSIT.

Still keeping an eye open for any contractile or more unpleasant experiences though. As I mentioned in an earlier post, after only a few sessions I had one morning that was quite challenging and raw feeling. But I'm now wondering if it was for lack of sleep that I felt the way I did.

 

[Altair]

Last evening I did my second NeurOptimal session (the 1st one the day before) and firstly didn't notice anything particular. I was already thinking that it was a waste of time. Shortly after that I noticed that I was much more lighter in the head and more easygoing. I didn't notice any changes in the sleep patterns yet but today I woke up with terrible headache (pretty unusual). I take more Omega-3 as usual and do intermittent fasting with 6 hours feeding window to make the brain more "plastic" for any changes.

 

[anartist]

I've read the book The Open-Focus Brain by Les Fehmi and Jim Robbins, and I'm gonna give some quotes and comments here. So let's begin with first quote:

Shifts in styles of attention—in the way we shape and direct our awareness—play a large, unrecognized role in our lives. In fact, our choice of type and direction of our attention is vital. Certain kinds of attention can quickly dissolve physical pain and emotional stress and can cause widespread changes in physiology. It is my view that any therapy or relaxation technique that helps us make positive changes works, at least in part, by bringing about beneficial shifts in attention.

Same thing the C's said about EFT techniques:

5 Aug 2009

Q: (laughter) (L) Are the EFT techniques a valid method?

A: EFT is merely a keep busy activity designed to hold focus. It is the attention that "works". It would be counter to the purposes of the program you have presented.

But they obviously didn't like the type of attention created with that method.

Next quote:

Let me clarify an essential point about improving our health and well-being through the power of our attention: The issue it is not what we attend to. Far more critical is how we attend, how we form and direct our awareness, and how we adhere—rigidly or flexibly—to a chosen style of attention.

Whether we realize it or not, we pay attention with our whole body and mind, in ways that are measurable. Our style of attention impacts the brain’s electrical rhythms, as can be shown in an electroencephalogram, or EEG.

Because the brain is the master control panel for our mind and body, when we change its electrical patterns we initiate systemwide effects, including changes in muscle tension, respiratory rate, and the flow of neurotransmitters and hormones. Our perception, memory, information processing, performance, physiology, and emotional well-being are all influenced by (and, in my view, often subordinate to) attention.

In our culture we do not recognize or make use of the full repertoire of attention styles. Few of us are consciously aware that there are different styles of attention, each with different qualities and each suited to different kinds of tasks. Instead, we are culturally biased to stay locked in limited modes of attention, to our great detriment. Many of my clients feel trapped or walled in, and they do not know what the walls are made of or how to dissolve them. Many know they built the walls themselves somehow, but they think they are constructed out of the content of their awareness—by the things that have happened to them in their lives—or by any number of external factors and their thoughts about them. They can’t find their way out because they are stuck in a process of continually scanning the content of their problems for a solution, when the walls that trap them are largely made out of attentional biases.

The information you just provided clicks with my self-perceptions. Since my 20's I have been aware of feeling walled in, of existing in a world surrounded by glass walls. I have tried various methods to 'escape' this disconnected feeling, without much success. When I recently re-attempted (for the 6th time?)yoga with a friend, she reported feeling relaxed/energized after the yoga class, while I felt no different. Self-remembering my physical body takes so much attention I have little left over for any other aspect. I have been using the DAVE(Digital Audio Visual Entrainment) since the Gedgaudas interview mentioned at the beginning of the thread, and it produces no changes at all that I can perceive. The meditation entrainment feels no different than any other entrainment, or just walking around. The only one I think I notice a difference with is Alpha, which I think I sometimes find irritating. I have been unable to learn HOW to change the WAY I pay attention.

I was in the zone. There was a feeling that I had come home after a long absence, home to who I really was. The feeling lasted for many months, and with more training it could be refreshed. I felt strongly that this is the way life was meant to be.

And from an evolutionary point of view it made a great deal of sense. Chronic depression, anxiety, and a host of other physical and psychological problems are not the natural state of human beings. Nor are they necessarily the result of a brain that is somehow fundamentally flawed. Instead they are the result of “operator error.” Alpha isn’t magical—it just seems that way because we’ve forgotten how to access it, increase its amplitude, and prolong it. When someone learns to operate their central nervous system the way it was designed to be operated, however, and includes abundant low-frequency synchrony, things run more smoothly and efficiently and don’t break down as often. We are equipped with a rapid and sensitive emergency response to assure survival. But we are also equipped with a process of restoration and recovery, a way to lay down our burden: by generating low-frequency synchrony.

This sounds familiar to how Gurdjieff described how he felt after some time of "remembering himself". Maybe that's how he changed his brainwaves? But he didn't had an EEG device to measure it.


It looks like I have a problem getting into Alpha. no results for any methods I have tried.

Next quote:

In addition to those feelings, I noticed that the brain-wave training broadened my attention; I took in the world visually in a very different way. I now perceived larger scenes without focusing on any one element and with much less effort. I went back to some of the writings of Hans Berger, who discovered the existence of the brain’s electrical output and who, in the 1930s, reported on the association between alpha and a state of relaxed attentiveness. But it wasn’t just visual. My awareness of the room I was in, my feeling and sense of it, was also much bigger.

So, at the time, two critical discoveries had emerged. First, it dawned on me that producing alpha caused my attention to shift from narrow to diffuse, thus opening my awareness. Second, I realized that subjects could relax and produce abundant alpha not only with eyes-closed biofeedback but also by changing the way they paid attention in an eyes-open state. Changing the way they paid attention manifested in the EEG. And when they attended in full Open Focus, they not only produced alpha, but a very specific kind called phase-synchronous alpha.

Phase synchrony means not only that many parts of the brain are producing alpha but that these waves are also rising and falling in unison. This means that a large number of cells are working together—an especially powerful type of synergistic cortical activity. While high-frequency, nonsynchronous beta activity is like the chatter of an auditorium full of high school students engaged in separate conversations, the synchronized, uniform lower frequency generated across the whole brain by open styles of attention is the equivalent of the same group of students singing together.

(...)

Once I had recognized the tremendous potential of synchronous alpha, the focus of my research became finding a way to help others produce those brain waves as quickly as possible. It had taken me twelve two-hour sessions before I was able to let go during the thirteenth session and increase alpha amplitude and duration. That was simply too long, and many people would give up before they experienced the release. And it defies verbal instruction. The only way it could be learned efficiently was through experience.

And then he talks about his new method:

In 1971 I discovered a shortcut. In research experiments student volunteers were exposed to a number of relaxation methods as their EEG was monitored to see which exercises produced the most phase-synchronous alpha. Some were asked to visualize peaceful scenes and locations. Some listened to their favorite music. Others tried fragrances, negative-ion generation, and colored lights. Some of these things had a mild alpha-enhancing effect; most had very little impact. One day I tried a standard twenty-item relaxation inventory. During the first few questions—imagine a dewdrop on a rose petal or a cascading waterfall, for example—their EEG manifested little change. Then I asked. “Can you imagine the space between your eyes?” Boom. The pens scribbled the symmetrical waves of high-amplitude alpha. A subsequent question was, “Can you imagine the space between your ears?” Again, boom, highamplitude alpha appeared instantly. When either of these “space”-related questions was asked, subjects almost invariably generated a significant increase in alpha brain synchrony in the brain sites being monitored. No other question or imagery brought about such profound changes in the EEG. “Objectless imagery”—the multisensory experience and awareness of space, nothingness, or absence—almost always elicits large amplitude and prolonged periods of phase-synchronous alpha activity.
(...)

That sounds so much like 'changing the habit of being yourself' I have the book, and have downloaded the audio sessions as well as making my own, and I find the experience very unnerving and anxiety provoking. Imagining the space between my ears gives me the same feeling as not imagining it. Particularly anxiety producing is the attempt to imagine the current space(of whatever area) in space. Trying to imagine "the space between my ears , in space" is problematic because of the second 'space'. I can not imagine a space in infinite space. I'm not very good at imagining infinity, it produces anxiety in me.

Since a sustained awareness of space is key to Open-Focus attention, I recorded a series of exercises to guide people through different kinds of objectless imagery, asking them to imagine space first between and around body regions and then through them, extending limitlessly in every direction. For example, I ask listeners to imagine space in, around, and through their eyes, neck, head, and hands (which leads to a release of those areas) and ultimately space extending limitlessly in every direction. When people gently direct their awareness to it and imagine feeling space, the brain responds immediately, dropping into whole-brain synchronous alpha.

And then he says this:

In fact, just closing one’s eyes causes a prominent increase of synchronous alpha over the whole brain, not only in the visual system. This suggests that synchrony’s role is a more general and fundamental one, like attention.

In my experience, objectless imagery is the quickest way to get into an open focus, and an awareness of space is a powerful tool to teach people to access and maintain alternative styles of attention.

But I don't think it can be that simple. Besides, he is still using an EEG device in his therapies. Why would he need such device if it was a simply a matter of closing your eyes and imagining an empty space?

And latter on he talks about how hard it is to train this:

The problem is that moving out of desynchronized beta into synchronized alpha is a subtle shift; without training in, and an experience of this activity, it’s difficult for people to evoke them. A fish in water, it’s been said, doesn’t know it’s in water. People often fail to recognize that they are carrying tension, perhaps because it increases gradually and persists for so long. I’ve had clients tell me they are deeply relaxed even when measurements of their physiology show them to be very tense.

A client named Mark had been meditating for years but felt he hadn’t gotten much out of it. Monitoring with neurofeedback equipment showed that he was very desynchronized and tense, and had trouble relaxing into alpha. I asked him to meditate using his mantra. Again, he produced much tension and high-frequency desynchronized beta and little alpha. He stopped meditating, and I asked him to let the light and sound feedback increase, signaling the presence of whole-brain synchronous alpha. As he gradually got more feedback, he discovered what alpha synchrony felt like and realized that he had been trying too hard. Then I asked him to meditate in such a way that the light and sound came on more often. Within minutes he felt as if his mantra was flowing effortlessly. After years of trying to meditate, he learned the meaning of effortlessness in a single neurofeedback session. His pallid face became ruddy and his demeanor brightened, both changes reflecting his newly achieved harmony.

So this guy Mark obviously had a help in a form of some device which produced light and sound feedback, and was not able to do it just with his eyes closed and meditation.

Anyway, I think that this neurofeedback has a lot of potential, even though it might be a hard to do it without some kind of brainwave monitoring device. Maybe that's why Gurdjieff failed in training his students? Maybe he didn't know how to teach them this skill that defies verbal instruction?

Yes, I really hope there is potential in neurofeedback. I investigated it back in 2013, but it was too expensive, and there were no practitioners in my area. I think I am trying to hard. I often notice in EE, that I get tense during the vagal nerve breathing(pipe breath), especially during the breathing in, and have to continually consciously relax my muscles. I am getting better at it after 10 years or so, but I can't say I am relaxed after the pipe breathing. I like the idea of the neuroptimal as it is not imposing a 'normal' brain pattern on me, but allowing my brain to find its own baseline. My understanding is that once the brain self-regulates, I may know 'how' to get into the Alpha state, i.e. my brain know how to do it, and I know how to do it, that is, pay attention!

This was also a first time for me when I started to understand Gurdjieff's emphasis on "remembering yourself". I always thought that we first needed to remove bad programs from our subconsciousness before we try to practice "remembering ourself", but now it seems that G was right. This looks like an “operator error” that must be solved before any further work on ourselves.

 

[Hesper]

I've had 11 sessions of NO and 6 sessions of 2-dimensional biofeedback with an experienced practitioner, and I've been re-reading the major points from Healing Developmental Trauma on a regular basis. I have noticed that it's difficult to really sum up a lot of the benefits due to the fact that much of them seem to be pre-verbal, but it has thus far translated into a greater sense of well-being and a growth in awareness of how the survival styles distort my view.

The process has also come with some fatigue, minor headaches, a greater need for sleep, as well as one contraction period this far. I also recently got over the first sinus infection I remember having in my adult life. It is most probably unrelated, but through the fever it felt like I processed a lot of junk. After a life of feeling 'at war' with the nervous system and brain, it's nice to feel even the slightest sense that maybe we will be on the same side. Less toxic shame (even being able to write that is an improvement), better memory, and a greater ability to relax. That last one might be the biggest improvement I've noticed. One step at a time :)

 

[anartist]

Gaby, how many electrodes and where placed?

Chu and I tried the Neuroptimal (I think, Chu can correct me if wrong) thing. She said she had some small breaks or pauses or skips in her movie; I didn't think I had any but the therapist said there were some that were on the screen she was watching which shows the waves or something. Anyway, I don't feel any different and I'm wondering if this is the right thing for me to try?

With this device, you just listen to music or watch video on a screen, you can even do what you want during the session (close your eyes, read a book, sleep). You don't act on what you see or listen, it's passive, then it's not feedback! There is no qEEG previously neither, and the 2 electrods are put on the scalp in a standard way, the same for all clients. all health conditions. It brings just relaxation.

It sounds like there is feedback. What you see and hear is what your brain seea and hears. Any 'disturbance' in sound or vision (and this can happen subliminally so we don't consciously see or hear it) is caught and interpreted by the brain. At least this is my understanding of NeurOptimal

 

[annp]

I had my 5th NO session this morning. For the first time the post-training baseline reading was higher than the initial baseline indicating that the training needed to be integrated. Interesting, that the therapist remarked that my brain needed rest, which isn’t surprising because I have been having mixed results with sleeping. Several nights I have awakened around 2am and would be awake for three hours or would wake up an hour or two earlier than normal; other nights I would sleep soundly. Have added melatonin to my bedtime supplements along with the magnesium and GABA or an herbal supplement with valerian root. Have noticed a few pressure headaches, but am not sure if they are related to the training or some ongoing sinus problems – the pollen count is high as everything is blooming. Have also noticed some intense hunger after a few of the sessions.

Since starting the trainings, I am noticing an even greater separation between physical anxiety (which has diminished) and ruminating thoughts. While my body may be nervous or hyperactive, it doesn’t automatically translate into mental anxiety and catastrophic thinking. Frightening thoughts will arrive, but they just don’t ‘stick’ or send me down a dark alley of rumination; it’s like the thoughts don’t have a place to settle and set off the anxiety programs.

Am under a good deal of stress ATM with care-giving decisions for my mom but I am much more confident that everything will work out eventually, and am more able to concentrate on what needs to be done. Am also generally more patient, things don’t seem to annoy me as much and when I do feel irritated it’s much easier to just notice the feelings without reacting.

Still kind of holding my breath and trying not to have too many expectations for what the sessions will accomplish but am so far encouraged by the changes since these first few treatments.

 

[Gaby]

I've had 11 sessions of NO and 6 sessions of 2-dimensional biofeedback with an experienced practitioner, and I've been re-reading the major points from Healing Developmental Trauma on a regular basis. I have noticed that it's difficult to really sum up a lot of the benefits due to the fact that much of them seem to be pre-verbal, but it has thus far translated into a greater sense of well-being and a growth in awareness of how the survival styles distort my view.

The process has also come with some fatigue, minor headaches, a greater need for sleep, as well as one contraction period this far.

I've had 10 NeurOptimal sessions and 7 sessions of qEEG NF with a cognitive scientist.

The last qEEG NF took place between the 7th and 8th NeurOptimal sessions, and it was the best one I've done so far in that modality. Even though my workout session seemed less than suboptimal with my eyes closed, I "released" a couple of vivid images from a very calmed state. After that, I probably had one of the best days in years in terms of feeling I'm carrying less weight from the past. I attribute the positive effect to the NeurOptimal sessions which allowed for just enough grounding and feelings of safety to process something. I went to this last qEEG NF session at my calmest (relatively speaking) and the images were from a war zone and/or black-and-white photos from the Korean war front. My guess is that they're just symbolic (or my grandfather's memories?), like when we process something through EE or other therapeutic modality. The protocol was also the mildest one and in my experience with qEEG NF, less is much better.

I was planning to do NeurOptimal pretty much on a daily basis, but skipped sessions due to minor headaches. After skipping, I got a contraction phase that quickly went away with a NO session. I'm also getting a subjective feeling of warmness between my eyes, like it is the first time I can feel that region more clearly.

Although a contraction phase usually follows after 48h of any NF training, they seem "easier" to navigate. The last contraction phase was not nearly as bad as the previous ones. It seems there might be more freed-up resources to apply a Top-Down+ Botton-Up approach.

I've been reviewing Healing Developmental Trauma pretty much on a daily basis as well, and it is getting easier and easier to assimilate.

Since starting the trainings, I am noticing an even greater separation between physical anxiety (which has diminished) and ruminating thoughts. While my body may be nervous or hyperactive, it doesn’t automatically translate into mental anxiety and catastrophic thinking. Frightening thoughts will arrive, but they just don’t ‘stick’ or send me down a dark alley of rumination; it’s like the thoughts don’t have a place to settle and set off the anxiety programs.

Sounds very familiar. This last week I had a situation that made me feel awkward, but to my surprise, the feeling of crippling anxiety never came, allowing me to settle down and re-position my body in a more grounded state. I was able to speak out more directly, not being weighed down by the usual anxiety.

We'll see.

 

[anartist]

Our NF lady told us to space the sessions at least by 48hs, since the training is supposed to keep working during that time. So doing one a day, for example, is (allegedly) counterproductive, as you stop the training mid-way instead of letting your brain assimilate things.

I think that some people derive insights and changes with one training session that they can apply in their lives immediately and in the following days. A person might want to sit with that training to assimilate it. In this case more frequent sessions are not necessary or would feel unnatural and self-defeating towards that insight application in life.

It is not necessarily counterproductive to have more sessions though, nor the training is ever stopped or overridden with more sessions. Some NF therapists like Sebern Fisher admit that we don't really know exactly what is going on, but that the brain learns and when there's any response, it is a positive sign of the brain's plasticity.

Val Brown clarifies that the algorithm is safe and open for daily use. They also clarify as much in the NeurOptimal Myth Busters. Some prefer to do it nearly every day. Others prefer to do them spaced out and after a few, they decide they don't need NeurOptimal anymore. Each person is a world in itself. Some might have a headache or any other physical symptom after a session. That makes spacing out sessions preferable. Perhaps physical symptoms are signs of re-wiring to accommodate more potential?

The NeurOptimal representative that I spoke has had the experience of people not noticing absolutely anything with spaced out sessions. She encourages 5 sessions per week (up to 20 sessions) before people decide if NeurOptimal works or not. Another practitioner told me that people who do 2 sessions per day are advised to take a nap in between.

Most of us are noticing something with one single session though, and I think that if a person gets a very strong rebound after a training that feels unmanageable, it is ideal to do 2 or 3 sessions per week in order to facilitate the much needed grounding process. On the other hand, more sessions are not necessarily better if a person is not actively doing the Work and applying efforts.

There can also be feelings of anger and grieving that the grounding process is actually facilitating. I noticed that the process of integrating disowned feelings is something that doesn't necessarily go away with more or fewer sessions. More grounding has actually helped to counteract dissociating or the anxiety of not knowing what is happening to me. I rather feel something than anything at all, the earth underneath my feet so to speak. I'm reminding of the EE or polyvagal material. One assimilates what one is ready and feels safe to assimilate. But one has to be aiming and willing to Work.

Regardless of how frequent or the ideal number of sessions for each person, or how many trainings people can accommodate in their lives, we will have to aim for the Work and trust this aim because it is the right thing to do. Then, any help we might receive will have better results.

Just some thoughts.

You make good points Gaby. It occurs to me that we are not everyone though, and I say that in reference to what NO practitioners have told people about the number of sessions one can do. I assume the intent of most people using NO is to 'fix' a problem. That is not, it seems to me, our intent. I think our intent is to continue and deepen the Work, and the problems we are dealing with have to do with our thinking, and integrate the traumas/problems that have blocked us from self-remembering/observation and true honest thinking. I think any of us could do daily sessions, and do the Work between them, but possibly it might be better for the Work to focus on our thinking after a NO session until we feel (as some have noticed) a gradual return to pre-session effects thinking, and then do another NO session. That would vary don't you think? Some NO session effects might last 1 day, or 5 days, every body is different.
I think also that some might have strong emotional reactions/abreactions and so I think it might be useful for those so affected to wait until the emotions have been integrated before doing another session, regardless of their thinking patterns?
just saying.