NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography
- Thread starter williamsj
- Start date
goyacobol said:
Thanks Laura and Goyacobol for your thoughts.
First off I looked at some online discussion of the experiments Persinger did in Sudbury, Ontario. It seems pretty whacky. I am not sure if the C's are referring to the EMF's and sensory deprivation, or mostly the EMF as Laura's questions were all focused on the EMF but within the context of sensory deprivation. Persingers form of sensory deprivation was nominal (ping-pong ball eye cups, in an audio room, the kind used to test your hearing) so the sense of touch, smell, and taste is still present, which is not as complete as what is proposed by the Float Tank. The Float Tank lessons the senses of touch, hearing, and sight.
i want to compare this to sleep. When we are asleep we still have all our senses, but we do not access them, except when our hind brain senses danger. That would be different than the Float Tank, where we can access all our senses, but the inputs are diminshed. Our brain while sleeping does a lot of work, while dreaming, and when in deep sleep our body is paralyzed for the purpose of repair/rebuild/regenerate. This is not a factor in the Float Tank, we're always conscious. So it seems to me that the Float Tank would be similar to meditation and not as deep as sleep/dreaming.
So the big factor, and probably why Lauras' questions were focused on it, are the EMF's. Persinger was generating EMF at the frontal lobes. Why? because he is as crazy as a CERN scientist? Ostensibly it was to create 'mystical' states. But I have no intention of applying EMF's to my brain, or any other part of my body. There will be EMF's in the area, generated by electrical wiring, etc but that is no different than our normal day to day life. In fact I brought up that thought previously in this thread, as a potential concern.with regard to using the NO device in the presence of EMF fields.
btw Goyacobol, you used the word 'depravation' (which alludes to 'deprave':to make morally bad or evil; vitiate; corrupt.) rather than 'deprivation' (The act or an instance of depriving; loss.) was that deliberate or a typo?
Also you responded to the statement by Corvinus, which about a completely different idea (NO device possibly helping repair/bypass neuronal damage). Perhaps you conflated Corvinus thoughts and Laura's thoughts, intentionally or unintentionally?
As to why I was considering using a Float Tank it was in the sense that many of the benefits reported by people in this thread, are similar to benefits people report from the Float Tank. I am curious about the effects, and do not see the Float Tank as any more dangerous than meditation, but with the added benefit of an Epsom salt bath, and in fact I plan to do the POST meditation while in the Float Tank. Perhaps that would be a protection also?
Nicolas said:I have completed 8 NO sessions, the first five with baseline measurements and the last three without. I haven't noticed any changes. Sleep habits remained the same. Anxiety levels were the same. My tinnitus hasn't changed.
When I had baseline measurements, the second reading was always lower than the first. I experimented with keeping my eyes open during the whole session or keeping them closed but didn't see a measurable difference to the baseline measurements.
It was an interesting experiment. However I am not seeing a need for more sessions.
I am happy that it seems to help some people and wish them great success.
Hi Nicolas
Now you've got me curious!
You have done 8 sessions, and you have not noticed any changes such as reported by people in this thread.
Well, you do report that your before and after baselines were different, but experientially you noticed no difference in your levels of anxiety, your sleep patterns, or tinnitus. Were your anxiety levels high?
Have you considered that your brain may be very resistant to change? Neuroptimal trainers seem to think, after much experience, that 20 sessions are optimal. I am wondering if you would not notice any changes until after your 12th, or 15ht, or nth session.
You say that your baseline reading was always lower than the pre baseline. That is a change, though not in the direction you may have 'expected' change. Is that why you stopped doing the baselines after 5 sessions? Were you disappointed?
Maybe it is a financial situation. I know when I look at the cost per session, it is far more expensive than renting a NO unit for 4 weeks/20 sessions on a per session basis. If I were to do 8 sessions at a local trainer it would be a minimum of 450$, whereas renting a NO unit would be 45$ per session(360$ for 8 sessions), albeit with a much higher upfront cost.
I am thinking that you may have stopped the NO sessions before any effects may have been noticed. Or it may be that you are fine as you are, and you do not need the NO sessions. Except for the fact that your post baselines were lower than your pre baselines.
That said, you've not lost anything if you stop now, and then later on try some more sessions if you wish. Perhaps I could liken it to detox. It is not until a certain level is reached that herxheimer reactions will be experienced.
those are my thoughts Nicolas. thank you for yours.
PERLOU said:
Hi Perlou,
We have rented it in Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada. Here's the link : _http://neurozenith.ca/-1/nos-forfaits-de-location/
Bonjour Perlou,
Nous avons loué l'appareil à Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada. Voici le lien : _http://neurozenith.ca/-1/nos-forfaits-de-location/
anarkist said:Hi Nicolas
Now you've got me curious!
You have done 8 sessions, and you have not noticed any changes such as reported by people in this thread.
Well, you do report that your before and after baselines were different, but experientially you noticed no difference in your levels of anxiety, your sleep patterns, or tinnitus. Were your anxiety levels high?
Have you considered that your brain may be very resistant to change? Neuroptimal trainers seem to think, after much experience, that 20 sessions are optimal. I am wondering if you would not notice any changes until after your 12th, or 15ht, or nth session.
You say that your baseline reading was always lower than the pre baseline. That is a change, though not in the direction you may have 'expected' change. Is that why you stopped doing the baselines after 5 sessions? Were you disappointed?
Maybe it is a financial situation. I know when I look at the cost per session, it is far more expensive than renting a NO unit for 4 weeks/20 sessions on a per session basis. If I were to do 8 sessions at a local trainer it would be a minimum of 450$, whereas renting a NO unit would be 45$ per session(360$ for 8 sessions), albeit with a much higher upfront cost.
I am thinking that you may have stopped the NO sessions before any effects may have been noticed. Or it may be that you are fine as you are, and you do not need the NO sessions. Except for the fact that your post baselines were lower than your pre baselines.
That said, you've not lost anything if you stop now, and then later on try some more sessions if you wish. Perhaps I could liken it to detox. It is not until a certain level is reached that herxheimer reactions will be experienced.
those are my thoughts Nicolas. thank you for yours.
Thank you for your input anarkist. My anxiety levels were not high to begin with. Just the nervousness I feel around group situations that need me to live up to my perceived expectations. I think this is mainly due to low self confidence.
You may have a point that my brain may be resistant to change. I can be stubborn at times.
Actually I did expect the baseline readings to be lower after the session. I felt relaxed and enjoyed having that break from a busy day. I guess the baseline measurements stopped because a decision was made that measurements weren't varying enough to warrant further measurements. My beginning measurement was between 10 - 20 and my post measurement was 5 or lower.
I'm not good at detecting subtle things. There may be changes that I am just not aware of.
Anyway, I continue to do the full EE program twice a week without fail to help me concentrate on things I need to do to improve myself.
Merci Gandalf, je pensais que c'était en France et non au Canada...
Il me semble que j'avais trouvé un lien pour la location en France, je vais les contacter :
http://www.neurofeedback-equilibre.fr/les-seances-neurofeedback/location-neurofeedback/
Thank you Gandalf, I thought it was in France and not in Canada...
It seems to me that I had found a link for the rental in France, I will contact them :
http://www.neurofeedback-equilibre.fr/les-seances-neurofeedback/location-neurofeedback/
Il me semble que j'avais trouvé un lien pour la location en France, je vais les contacter :
http://www.neurofeedback-equilibre.fr/les-seances-neurofeedback/location-neurofeedback/
Thank you Gandalf, I thought it was in France and not in Canada...
It seems to me that I had found a link for the rental in France, I will contact them :
http://www.neurofeedback-equilibre.fr/les-seances-neurofeedback/location-neurofeedback/
Gandalf said:
The Irlen method
I posted a comment in the Infrabed thread https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,44627.0.html
I don't know how to link to the comment directly, so it is comment #385
The reason I am posting here is because it is possible that some of us may have perceptual problems, as highlighted by the Irlen Method (the science of colour, which ties into Wunsch, blue blocking, etc) which may be fixed by the NeurOptimal.
If you have been tested by an Irlen Screener of Diagnostician, it would interesting to know if NeurOptimal corrected the brain perceptual problem
https://irlen.com/headaches-migraines-other-physical-symptoms-the-irlen-method/
Headaches, Migraines, Other Physical Symptoms If you think your headaches and migraines are caused by stress, the Irlen Method may be able to help. Environmental factors can trigger stress. The Irlen Method eliminates the environmental factors that may be triggering your stress and causing your headaches and migraines. Stress headaches and headaches without medical cause may be related to light sensitivity and visually-intensive activities and eliminated with Irlen Spectral Filters.
Take our self-test to determine whether the Irlen Method may help relieve your headaches >>
Background About 18 million Americans suffer from migraine headaches. Only about half know what they suffer from. The others are treated ineffectively or not treated at all. Headache sufferers are typically the most misunderstood, misdiagnosed and mistreated group of patients in modern medicine.
Headaches can be a symptom of a more serious medical condition such as an aneurysm, brain tumor, stroke, TIA, meningitis, encephalitis, or high blood pressure. If you have any doubt about the cause of your headaches or migraines, contact your physician to rule out these possible causes. Although headaches can be very uncomfortable, most are not associated with serious illness. Treatment for these tension or “stress” headaches is often elusive and the individual is left to deal with the pain.
Sometimes families do not take their child’s pain seriously, especially when there are no medical or visual problems identified. These complaints may be seen as the child’s way of getting out of school or homework. The child may be thought of as having a psychological problem. When no one listens, the child soon learns to stop telling people. It is not that the headaches have gone away; the child just stops reporting the pain. The child feels as if s/he just has to live with the pain.
Different Headaches, Different Causes The National Headache Foundation distinguishes 21 kinds of head pain. The most common type of headaches are called tension headaches and thought to be caused by emotional stress. The name reveals the lack of certainty about the cause and is viewed as having psychological rather than physical causes. Little medical advancement has been made for treatment in the last 15 years, and individuals learn to live with tension headaches.
The Irlen Method & Headaches Many who suffer from tension headaches are unaware that environmental factors may be triggering stress. These individuals can be helped with the Irlen Method.
I posted a comment in the Infrabed thread https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,44627.0.html
I don't know how to link to the comment directly, so it is comment #385
The reason I am posting here is because it is possible that some of us may have perceptual problems, as highlighted by the Irlen Method (the science of colour, which ties into Wunsch, blue blocking, etc) which may be fixed by the NeurOptimal.
If you have been tested by an Irlen Screener of Diagnostician, it would interesting to know if NeurOptimal corrected the brain perceptual problem
https://irlen.com/headaches-migraines-other-physical-symptoms-the-irlen-method/
Headaches, Migraines, Other Physical Symptoms If you think your headaches and migraines are caused by stress, the Irlen Method may be able to help. Environmental factors can trigger stress. The Irlen Method eliminates the environmental factors that may be triggering your stress and causing your headaches and migraines. Stress headaches and headaches without medical cause may be related to light sensitivity and visually-intensive activities and eliminated with Irlen Spectral Filters.
Take our self-test to determine whether the Irlen Method may help relieve your headaches >>
Background About 18 million Americans suffer from migraine headaches. Only about half know what they suffer from. The others are treated ineffectively or not treated at all. Headache sufferers are typically the most misunderstood, misdiagnosed and mistreated group of patients in modern medicine.
Headaches can be a symptom of a more serious medical condition such as an aneurysm, brain tumor, stroke, TIA, meningitis, encephalitis, or high blood pressure. If you have any doubt about the cause of your headaches or migraines, contact your physician to rule out these possible causes. Although headaches can be very uncomfortable, most are not associated with serious illness. Treatment for these tension or “stress” headaches is often elusive and the individual is left to deal with the pain.
Sometimes families do not take their child’s pain seriously, especially when there are no medical or visual problems identified. These complaints may be seen as the child’s way of getting out of school or homework. The child may be thought of as having a psychological problem. When no one listens, the child soon learns to stop telling people. It is not that the headaches have gone away; the child just stops reporting the pain. The child feels as if s/he just has to live with the pain.
Different Headaches, Different Causes The National Headache Foundation distinguishes 21 kinds of head pain. The most common type of headaches are called tension headaches and thought to be caused by emotional stress. The name reveals the lack of certainty about the cause and is viewed as having psychological rather than physical causes. Little medical advancement has been made for treatment in the last 15 years, and individuals learn to live with tension headaches.
The Irlen Method & Headaches Many who suffer from tension headaches are unaware that environmental factors may be triggering stress. These individuals can be helped with the Irlen Method.
I had my 7th session earlier today.
This post is more about what I've noticed prior to this session, and since my last post. My sleep pattern has been up and down, sometimes sleeping well and other nights not so well. I realized that I had been excreting more than normal on a daily basis, however, it seems to have settled down now. After the last session (early afternoon), during which I fell asleep, I was shattered by the early evening, yet my brain was hyperactive at bedtime, I couldn't sleep and I felt compulsively driven to solve a problem that was on my mind. And, in the morning, I awoke much earlier than normal, with my mind still buzzing, compulsively telling me that my solution before sleep was wrong and I needed to do something about it, so I got up and sorted it ou, and then could sleep a little longer.
In terms of markers, that I'm looking at to demonstrate improvement from the sessions, I had an inkling of an idea that I was more socially at ease, and this was confirmed before today's session, one person saying that I looked happier, and on asking other people today, another saying that I was talking more in company and seemed more at ease in social situations. On the memory front, another marker, that seems to be going down rather than up.
Onwards and upwards.
This post is more about what I've noticed prior to this session, and since my last post. My sleep pattern has been up and down, sometimes sleeping well and other nights not so well. I realized that I had been excreting more than normal on a daily basis, however, it seems to have settled down now. After the last session (early afternoon), during which I fell asleep, I was shattered by the early evening, yet my brain was hyperactive at bedtime, I couldn't sleep and I felt compulsively driven to solve a problem that was on my mind. And, in the morning, I awoke much earlier than normal, with my mind still buzzing, compulsively telling me that my solution before sleep was wrong and I needed to do something about it, so I got up and sorted it ou, and then could sleep a little longer.
In terms of markers, that I'm looking at to demonstrate improvement from the sessions, I had an inkling of an idea that I was more socially at ease, and this was confirmed before today's session, one person saying that I looked happier, and on asking other people today, another saying that I was talking more in company and seemed more at ease in social situations. On the memory front, another marker, that seems to be going down rather than up.
Onwards and upwards.
I had my 9th session yesterday. It has been a really mixed bag. I did the extended 45 minute session yesterday and came home and took a 3 hour nap and slept 9 hours last night. At one point during the session I was aware of my whole body aching, similar to the very first session, but not as intense. I've been experiencing a lot of insomnia until the last session last Friday. I would be awake for 4-5 hours but have slept deeply with vivid dreams early in the morning for the last 5 nights.
The practitioner I work with uses music and the graphics. I actually dozed off in last Friday's session, which is an improvement for me. The hypervigilance is losing its grip and the alpha waves stay the same or increase when I close my eyes during the baseline testing.
During one session (5 I think) I had the weirdest experience of being disconnected from everything, floating, with no anchor and a lot of sorrow come up. I think it was my body processing pre-verbal connection style issues. It wasn't alarming, I just observed it. In a couple of other sessions memories came up but without the re-traumatization and I felt much lighter at the end of the sessions. Yesterday everything seemed to be focused on body awareness.
The greatest change for me is the feeling of being hunted has all but dissolved which relates to the nameless dread discussed in HDT. I have experienced a couple of contractions and the toxic shame was much milder than what used to be my constant state but very difficult to get through now that I have a higher baseline for comparison. A couple of people at work have made comments that I seem so much happier these days.
I also went through period last week of being very clumsy, like my brain and body were trying to orient in space in a different way, which makes sense as my nervous system is rewiring.
All in all, most amazing. I intend to do the full 20 sessions and see where I am at. The practitioner said sometimes people gradually reduce the frequency. I mentioned that I felt like I was using the NO as a crutch. She said people often wonder that because so much baggage is let go of. I think that's the biggest change. I am so much more at ease, all of my energy no longer goes to struggling to keep my head above water, metaphorically. I have no references for being at ease in my body, most of the time, of being pushed by curiosity rather than compelled by fear. It is a very strange experience and one I am more than willing to become accustomed to
The practitioner I work with uses music and the graphics. I actually dozed off in last Friday's session, which is an improvement for me. The hypervigilance is losing its grip and the alpha waves stay the same or increase when I close my eyes during the baseline testing.
During one session (5 I think) I had the weirdest experience of being disconnected from everything, floating, with no anchor and a lot of sorrow come up. I think it was my body processing pre-verbal connection style issues. It wasn't alarming, I just observed it. In a couple of other sessions memories came up but without the re-traumatization and I felt much lighter at the end of the sessions. Yesterday everything seemed to be focused on body awareness.
The greatest change for me is the feeling of being hunted has all but dissolved which relates to the nameless dread discussed in HDT. I have experienced a couple of contractions and the toxic shame was much milder than what used to be my constant state but very difficult to get through now that I have a higher baseline for comparison. A couple of people at work have made comments that I seem so much happier these days.
I also went through period last week of being very clumsy, like my brain and body were trying to orient in space in a different way, which makes sense as my nervous system is rewiring.
All in all, most amazing. I intend to do the full 20 sessions and see where I am at. The practitioner said sometimes people gradually reduce the frequency. I mentioned that I felt like I was using the NO as a crutch. She said people often wonder that because so much baggage is let go of. I think that's the biggest change. I am so much more at ease, all of my energy no longer goes to struggling to keep my head above water, metaphorically. I have no references for being at ease in my body, most of the time, of being pushed by curiosity rather than compelled by fear. It is a very strange experience and one I am more than willing to become accustomed to
I forgot to mention in my post that the skips in the music lessened the last couple of sessions. I asked the practitioner about that and she said that the NO was working at a deeper, subliminal level (more pre-verbal trauma?) which she said showed in the graphs.
I have had 16 NO sessions. Early on I experienced small glitches, as in a couple seconds of pause to reconnect with how to do something basic, such as an automatic computer action. Maybe the NO sessions had created different pathways or connections or patterning? They have since subsided. This past week I am suddenly reading much faster. This is really interesting to observe from a self-monitoring aspect as I am not driving this new tendency. I have had much better overall sleep and deeper sleep, but also a few nights with almost no kick-over. Long-term memory has also been more accessible and overall I feel more internally content and look forward to each session.
I have done 9 sessions so far, the first eight I watched Lord of the Rings and Planet Earth, but after my dream that told me that I should listen to music instead and after reading this tread I switched to (Zengar) music. It was really interesting, I was more relaxed during the session (maybe because I was very tired) and heard many light clicks. At the end of the session I saw a purple circle (my eyes were closed) which expanded but it stopped when the session ended.
I have been feeling under the weather off and on during these past few months, and often very tired and the sessions seemed to make it worse. Yesterday was the first day after a session that I didn't feel like I was coming down with the flu (body aches and so on). It also seems that these past few months I have been releasing some tension. When I am lying in my bed I am having these tremors at times and last week my right jaw was clearly shaking. I think that reading all these books recommended here on the forum also help with that, because it started before the NO training.
I felt a lot of coldness in my body during the sessions, but I somehow didn't during the last session. According to Healing Developmental Trauma '[c]oldness is the usual reaction associated with early experience of abandonment; feeling left out in the cold is more than just a metaphor.' I have felt very cold as long as I can remember, although cold showers and probably iodine did help.
I have been sleeping pretty well, but took some GABA a few nights ago. Woke up at two a.m., feeling anxious and ill. I felt better when I realised that 'exaggerated fear of death and disease' is one of the characteristics of developmental trauma and I fell asleep pretty easily afterwards. Normally I will stay awake for hours after having such an episode.
My youngest son has done 2 sessions so far (and thinks four is enough), and although he was not feeling very well when he woke up yesterday morning he did sleep through the night, which doesn't happen often. He has been sleeping very badly for a very long time despite supplements and CBD oil. He reported the same result this morning, didn't wake up during the night again!! He does worry about the costs of this training, but I told him it is like an investment and not to worry.
I think I will stop after 12 sessions for the time being, so I can start integrating the training and then hopefully do more sessions later in the year with NO 3.0.
I have also been very clumsy, but this already started while reading all the books mentioned above. So, in my case it looks as if it is a combination of things. I also made a few decisions these past few months which has set healing in motion or so it seems to me.
Added: I have done these sessions every other day and twice with one day extra in between.
I have been feeling under the weather off and on during these past few months, and often very tired and the sessions seemed to make it worse. Yesterday was the first day after a session that I didn't feel like I was coming down with the flu (body aches and so on). It also seems that these past few months I have been releasing some tension. When I am lying in my bed I am having these tremors at times and last week my right jaw was clearly shaking. I think that reading all these books recommended here on the forum also help with that, because it started before the NO training.
I felt a lot of coldness in my body during the sessions, but I somehow didn't during the last session. According to Healing Developmental Trauma '[c]oldness is the usual reaction associated with early experience of abandonment; feeling left out in the cold is more than just a metaphor.' I have felt very cold as long as I can remember, although cold showers and probably iodine did help.
I have been sleeping pretty well, but took some GABA a few nights ago. Woke up at two a.m., feeling anxious and ill. I felt better when I realised that 'exaggerated fear of death and disease' is one of the characteristics of developmental trauma and I fell asleep pretty easily afterwards. Normally I will stay awake for hours after having such an episode.
My youngest son has done 2 sessions so far (and thinks four is enough), and although he was not feeling very well when he woke up yesterday morning he did sleep through the night, which doesn't happen often. He has been sleeping very badly for a very long time despite supplements and CBD oil. He reported the same result this morning, didn't wake up during the night again!! He does worry about the costs of this training, but I told him it is like an investment and not to worry.
I think I will stop after 12 sessions for the time being, so I can start integrating the training and then hopefully do more sessions later in the year with NO 3.0.
I have also been very clumsy, but this already started while reading all the books mentioned above. So, in my case it looks as if it is a combination of things. I also made a few decisions these past few months which has set healing in motion or so it seems to me.
Added: I have done these sessions every other day and twice with one day extra in between.
KJN said:
After doing the first five sessions with a week or longer in between and the gradual loss of the benefit, I decided that I would do them every other day (and this was now possible). My thinking is that I have lived with the burden of anxiety for so long, it had made deep tracks in my brain and that only way to fix that would be to stop letting those tracks be operational at all and to create new, non-anxious tracks. Hopefully then the new tracks will become habitual and the old tracks will completely dissolve.