NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography

Corvus

Jedi Council Member
What is the difference between NeuroOptimal and Othmer method beside former being more effective and safe because it seems there is only Othmer method available where I live, found only one place where they use more advanced MindWave and emWavePro feedback technology, and it s session is 60 min not standard 30 so it is like two sessions into one.
 
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Gaby

SuperModerator
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FOTCM Member
What is the difference between NeuroOptimal and Othmer method beside former being more effective and safe because it seems there is only Othmer method available where I live, found only one place where they use more advanced MindWave and emWavePro feedback technology, and it s session is 60 min not standard 30 so it is like two sessions into one.
In Othmer NF, 16 (more or less) channels are used for quantitive analysis against a small sample of the general population. The quantitive analysis might reveal hypoactivity or hyperactivity in any given region of the brain which might be related with a certain reported symptom or not. A therapist might question you on your personal history or not. Once this info is obtained, a therapist sets up a protocol. Some therapists work with 2 electrodes and synchronize the training, others with one single electrode. I have the reference manual for single electrode targets according to Broadmann areas (brain areas) and even this simple approach is not so simple as it looks like.

NeurOptimal works with "big waves", it doesn't have the potential damaging effects of Othmer NF which fine-tunes everything according to the therapist's knowledge and experience. You need at least 10 years of psychological training to do a decent work in Othmer NF, and there would still be a lot of hits and misses.

NeurOptimal gives negative feedback according to an algorithm that doesn't necessarily target anything specifically. When you target something specific in Othmer NF, you can create more damage. I went through some really serious rough episodes with Othmer NF. The later gives you positive feedback, so you have to deliberately focus or do something right in order to get the targeted positive feedback. In NeurOptimal, you don't have to do or concentrate in anything specific.

In Othmer NF, a therapist sits down and drives your brain. You give him or her permission to do that. Then you have to wonder, "what is driving my therapist?" There are more differences explained in great detail in the earlier pages of this thread.
 

trendsetter37

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
What is the difference between NeuroOptimal and Othmer method beside former being more effective and safe because it seems there is only Othmer method available where I live, found only one place where they use more advanced MindWave and emWavePro feedback technology, and it s session is 60 min not standard 30 so it is like two sessions into one.
@Corvus In general, it seems as though Othmer attempts to train with specific frequencies based on "empirical" data, whereas NeurOptimal simply provides feedback when brain activity becomes unbalanced or chaotic for certain frequency bands. So the latter passively provides a mirror for the brain so to speak and the former aims to entrain. At least that's what I've been able to discern from a quick search.

eegeurope-info.com
The Othmer method today is a combination of three powerful components:
  1. Classic frequency band training: The classic band training is clearly part of Cygnet and the Othmer method. Even if we work at very low frequencies, we use the dynamics of the feedback methods; in addition to that there are also many individual inhibits at work, even up to 40Hz.
  2. ILF training: The effectiveness of the work in the field of Slow Cortical Potentials is now clearly established due to the many studies that have taken place in Germany in the recent years. We have empirically entered into this frequency range in the last years and have continually optimized the protocols.
  3. Bipolar training: Empirical studies have clearly shown that feedback to the brain on how the two regions work relatively to each other, is much more efficient than displaying only the activity of a single one. Most Othmer method protocols are based on bipolar placements. Note: Nevertheless, usually one EEG channel is sufficient, which simplifies the practical work very much.
 
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aimarok

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
I have the reference manual for single electrode targets according to Broadmann areas (brain areas) and even this simple approach is not so simple as it looks like.
Gaby, are you able to share this manual?

I went through some really serious rough episodes with Othmer NF.
Did your protocol include ILF training?
 

Gaby

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Gaby, are you able to share this manual?

Did your protocol include ILF training?
To my knowledge, it didn't include ILF training.

The manual is called "Functional NeuroAnatomy" by the Thompsons (Toronto University) and it is available here:

https://www.amazon.com/Functional-Neuroanatomy-Michael-Thompson-Lynda/dp/0984297936

I think its utility derives more from the correlation between Broadmann areas and functional regions in the brain according to the latest research. Lobaczewski used Broadmann areas as well, so it might be interesting to have as a reference.
 
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Corvus

Jedi Council Member
Thank you Gaby and trandsetter37 for information, think I ll pass Othmer method, but after searching for MindWave found there is software called MindReflector C 1 neurofeedback that can be installed on pc but also requires neurosky mindwave headset:


The MindReflector® C-1 Neurofeedback Training Application is a true EEG Biofeedback/Neurofeedback training device for Windows-based operating systems (Mac OS X and iOS development is underway). Your brain trains itself using visual and audio feedback from your library of mp3 and avi media files.

The MindReflector® C-1 application uses EEG brainwave data received from the NeuroSky MindWave and MindWave Mobile headsets (purchased separately). Real-time information about a user’s state of mind is provided by the MindReflector® application to offer four different training protocols: Quiet Focus, Meditative Relaxation, Full Spectrum Training, and Alpha/Theta Training. These protocols incorporate proprietary algorithms based on current brain-behavior research and knowledge of the neural correlates of consciousness. New MindReflector 2.2 software improves the speed and reliability of the headset connection and provides a difficulty-scoring algorithm that credits both use and training success.
And it all costs under 200 dollars, but the question is how much effective it is, or that or NO is a rip off.
 
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Yas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Wow! I've been catching up with this thread and I'm so happy to read all the improvements so many are experiencing! What a blessing indeed. :clap:

And also, I guess I'm not just imagining the improvement I feel in myself too because it's pretty similar to what some of you have been reporting, although I've only had 10 sessions so far. I feel so different sometimes that it's almost as if I'm another person, although I do notice that some of the "new" I see has always been there, but I was completely holding it because I was afraid all the time. In general it's just a general courage to speak my mind, make jokes, less feeling of dread and catastrophic imagination, having more contact with my emotions in what I would call a more positive way... because I can notice better what I'm actually feeling and have more acceptance of it without it being overwhelming or something to shut down because of fear (again). Also, not so much guilt. I also noticed better focus and retention of information, which for me is huge because I always had the feeling that my brain didn't work very well and I couldn't focus or retain a lot of information.

I do notice that sometimes NO seems to leave me a little too hyperactive (not in an anxious way but more like wanting to do too many things and think about things) and maybe it will be good to find some balance in that aspect. I have trouble sleeping some nights (which I very rarely had before). It's like my brain is hyperactive and I can't sleep until very late, or, I sleep but it seems that my mind was still so active while sleeping that I didn't really rest. I'm also having lots of dreams when I do sleep. I think that if I do more physical activity I might be able to improve my sleeping, so I'll try that.

I also notice lots of back and forth from "not-so-afraid-and-anxious" to "very-afraid-and-anxious" + gloomy states. But when I'm in those anxious/gloomy states, it's easier to deal with them as others have pointed out. Sometimes it feels like a whole different way of being, so that in itself brings a bit of anxiety for me, because still having my old way seeing things, I'm trying to figure out this new way of seeing things, I guess. I suppose here is where the process of working and reading and networking comes too, which is very important, IMO.

All in all, I'm VERY thankful for the NO, the changes for me have been great, even if there are plenty of things coming up that are a bit depressing, and there's much that I need to balance and work on still. I feel more alive and authentic now, and that's really something.
 

Gandalf

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And it all costs under 200 dollars, but the question is how much effective it is, or that or NO is a rip off.
Way too cheap to be true, don't you think?
I don't think so. It looks like it's pretty similar to Muse and that was around the same price.
I don't think that we are speaking about the same kind of tool. Muse reminds me of another similar tool that Nora G recommended (Mental Health Treatment - Mind Alive).
 

Jones

Jedi Council Member
The NO personal rental unit that I was waiting on has finally been returned and I picked it up today. I did a short snapshot session on the practitioners professional unit - 30 seconds with eyes open and 30 seconds with eyes closed. He went through the different frequencies and of what they may mean and how them being out of whack might present themselves. It was really interesting what he could tell from the snapshot. One of the big take aways for me was that I became more vigilant with my eyes closed! He indicated that this could contribute to my difficulties falling asleep. As he was finishing up the talk I realised that I should have taped him because there was a lot of handy information. He is a psychologist and has worked with neuro-feedback since 1997 and said that once the NO system was developed, he thought that it would be in every practice inside 5 years. In any case I was astounded about what he was telling me about myself from a one minute reading of my brainwaves.

He said that he probably won't upgrade to the new version 3 of the software. According to him it's misinformation that the new version will have fewer graphs and measurements. He said that all that functionality is still there in the new version, just in different formats. His reason for not upgrading is that with version 2 you could source your own lap top, desktop or tablet for a better deal than what you pay through NO, however with version 3 you buy the lap top, desktop or tablet from NO with the software already loaded, but the hardware is at an inflated price.

He also said that the reason why music works better or is more efficient is because there are fewer gaps in the sound like there might be in speech in movies. So he'd prefer his clients to watch music dvd's rather than movies, though he didn't belabour the point.

One question I thought of last night and totally forgot to ask him today was this: If you listened to the same music for each and every session, could that music become an anchor - in the classical conditioning sense - for the brainwaves to shift back to an optimal pattern without getting the neuro - feedback? If so, then perhaps the music alone could serve as a top up after the NO sessions have been used to their maximum benefit.
 

Jones

Jedi Council Member
I forgot to add - the reason why he took a 60 second snapshot is because things like eye blinking, swallowing and clenching the jaw can actually give a false reading. He showed me on a dynamic graph the effect that these simple things can have on the display. So for the baseline in that 60 seconds, I was to avoid blinking, swallowing and jaw clenching. I think this is only really important for baseline measures for comparison over a number of sessions and not so important for the full half hour.
 

choepel

The Force is Strong With This One
Hi Everyone. I was introduced to your forum by one of your members with an interest in NeurOptimal. I have been training people with NeurOptimal for 10 years and am a worldwide instructor and representative for Zengar, the makers of NO (I am not here to sell) . I have also been an inquirer into truth for some 30 years and an avid meditator (mainly Dzogchen). the member who introduced me asked if I would care to write about NeurOptimal. But I am checking first to see if there is interest and if it would be welcomed. I have to say, I am astonished by the NeurOptimal experiment going on here, and the largely positive results. I also introduced NO into my own meditation group some 8 years ago and have watched how at the very least it has brought about greater clarity and awareness. This seems to be a refreshingly insightful blog!
 

Beau

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Hi Everyone. I was introduced to your forum by one of your members with an interest in NeurOptimal. I have been training people with NeurOptimal for 10 years and am a worldwide instructor and representative for Zengar, the makers of NO (I am not here to sell) . I have also been an inquirer into truth for some 30 years and an avid meditator (mainly Dzogchen). the member who introduced me asked if I would care to write about NeurOptimal. But I am checking first to see if there is interest and if it would be welcomed. I have to say, I am astonished by the NeurOptimal experiment going on here, and the largely positive results. I also introduced NO into my own meditation group some 8 years ago and have watched how at the very least it has brought about greater clarity and awareness. This seems to be a refreshingly insightful blog!
First, welcome to the forum choepel. It's great to see someone who has been working with NO for so long on the forum. I think there would certainly be interest in hearing about your experiences and what you have taken away as the benefits of doing NO treatment.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Hi Everyone. I was introduced to your forum by one of your members with an interest in NeurOptimal. I have been training people with NeurOptimal for 10 years and am a worldwide instructor and representative for Zengar, the makers of NO (I am not here to sell) . I have also been an inquirer into truth for some 30 years and an avid meditator (mainly Dzogchen). the member who introduced me asked if I would care to write about NeurOptimal. But I am checking first to see if there is interest and if it would be welcomed. I have to say, I am astonished by the NeurOptimal experiment going on here, and the largely positive results. I also introduced NO into my own meditation group some 8 years ago and have watched how at the very least it has brought about greater clarity and awareness. This seems to be a refreshingly insightful blog!
Hello and welcome!

Perhaps you could take a look at this thread:
Session 14 April 2018
where we did a channeling session with the NO system hooked up. Not the training part, just the baseline measuring part.
 
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