NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

About to do my second session. One thing that I'm finding really difficult is to get the head sensors placed by myself. For anyone else with long hair that's finding this difficult I've finally just made a part from the top of one ear across the top of the head to the top of the other ear and pulled all hair in front of the part into a pony tail and all hair behind the part into another pony tail. Kind of rocking the rhinoceros look at the moment. @choepel how important is exact placement of the head sensors?
 
how important is exact placement of the head sensors

Yes, it can be really difficult with long hair and by yourself. Some people find mirrors useful and some people put lots of clips in place. But, it turns out that getting the exact locations (C3 an C4) is not that important. Even several cm off is still fine to pick up global cortical activity. What seems more important is symmetry.
 
Hi choepel, could you explain what CCAC is? I understand it is "cross correlation of auto correlation". What is "auto correlation", specifically what is correlated?

Technically, this is complicated and would require an excellent understanding of mathematics to understand. If you are one of those people (I am not) I have posted two passages from Val below which may make sense to you. The particular mathematical calculation is unique to NO - it is VAL's invention as I understand it. It is calculated from the baseline spectrograms and depends on the client closing their eyes half way through, as this is the "phase shift" that is mainly being measured. Cross correlation and autocorrelation are specific signal terms which can be looked up on e.g. wikipedia.

In essence, the CCAC is an attempt to measure the resilience and flexibility of the brain and to measure the impact the sessions are having on the brain. The smoother the curve and the lower the divergence number, the more resilient the brain. My most psychologically injured client (a lady who had 10 years of Childhood Sexual Abuse and later rapes) had the best curve I have ever seen. But she was resilient and despite her alcoholism and self-destructive behaviour, she was the editor of a major newspaper.

But VAL warns against putting too much emphasis on the CCAC - in fact in recent years he advised to stop using baselines because he said they could be very misleading and could be easily misinterpreted. Instead, he emphasised using the client's own experience of change. In NO3 he has replaced CCACs with tunnels which are a similar attempt but using more data and being somewhat non-linear in their analysis.


How is the CCAC calculated (Val Quote from Webinar)?

Note: Joint Time Frequency Analysis is at the heart of NO - it is a type of fourier transform)

Taking the joint time frequency analysis of the journey, using the spectrogram data auto correlating each of those channels to themselves multiple times, and the cross correlating each of those auto correlations to derive a single divergence curve.

It has nothing to do with relative power, volume or amplitude or even special distribution in the brain.
It’s a measure of efficiency and effectiveness or resilience and flexibility
The smoother the curve and the lower the divergence (as long as it is not too low)
Over sessions, the divergence difference number should decrease. But that presupposes that the sessions have similar levels of line noise and conditions – similar amounts of paste being used etc.



Val Quote:
Essentially divergence is an indirect measure of "wobble" in the overall system. It is a measure that I developed based on the Cross Ambiguity Function used in Joint Time-Frequency Analysis (JTFA). I say that it's "indirect" because the absolute number that it produces depend to a degree on the relative amount of Line Noise present in the Baseline you are Analyzing. For this and several other reasons it doesn't make a lot of sense to talk about the meaning of a single divergence number; instead it is more useful to look at the divergence difference between a pair of Pre and Post Baselines from the same session. This give a measure of relative change in flexibility and resilience in the CNS as a result of Training. The more resilient and flexible the CNS (or in general any other nonlinear dynamic system) is, the higher the divergence will be. However, extrinsic constraints (yes this is a term to also search) like Line Noise can significantly alter the divergence "number" even though that doesn't affect the value of the Training. This is because of our unique array of filtering processes that essentially remove any simple sinusoidal signals like Line Noise. Regardless of what others may have said, human EEG is not composed of simple sinusoids, and trying to use mathematical approaches based on Short Time Fourier Transformations (STFT) are fundamentally deceiving. This applies to any kind of QEEG or similar databased approaches to determining what others call an "individualized" neurofeedback approach. NO does this kind of resizing dynamically, moment-to-moment based on the actual Training response of that particular Client at that time; not based on some "snapshot" taken before the Training -- or even after it!
 
For the record let me just say it was me who suggested choepel to join the forum, if only for the NeuroFeedback thread. Myself and rylek have decided to raise funding to buy one of NO devices and I contacted the only person in my country who owns the system and was very keen to share all the information and her experience with it. We made some arrangement for future cooperation and in the meantime I contacted choepel. The talk we had was from my point of view really seminal and I thought everyone here would benefit what choepel has to say on the topic. Besides that, our chat headed in a direction that is very collinear with this forum and I thought that the benefit would be mutual.

That said, thank you, choepel, for taking the time and sharing all the info. It's excellent. And if you feel comfortable here, I second Laura's suggestion to catch up with her written materials. There's so much to learn from what has been published by RedPill Press and on the forum and to get the context is crucial. I am not sure whether you have posted in a newbie section yet - upon your intro there you would get some tips and advise how to navigate around this platform.
 
I just had my first NO session over the weekend and it was a very interesting experience.

I have had to deal with anxiety and OCD thought patterns all my life, hence I was really curious as to how ill feel after the first session (not that I was expecting major change as I understand this is a gradual process with NO). Also because of my anxiety/worry "baseline" mode of thinking - as I've been having a difficult few months at work; I have been quite tense lately, and this tension can sometimes be felt at the frontal lobe area of my head.

After 5 minutes into the session - I could feel all the tension ease from the frontal lobe area of my head and I felt really relaxed after that. It felt like months of worry just started dissipating. Also heard a lot of clicks interrupting during the whole session. During the session I was listening to music, but instead of watching the visualizations I was actually reading a book. My book of choice then was "Flags of our Fathers" by James Bradley. It was just a coincidence that I was reading this book at this time, but during the session, even with thoughts of death in battle while reading the book - I still felt very calm.

After the session, my brain felt really "different". You could sense that it was doing "something" - but beyond that I can't really explain the feeling. It also felt that all the "activity" i felt in my brain after the session was more in the center and back of my head, and not the frontal lobe area. Also within an hour after the session I developed a mild headache that came and went intermittently all day until I went to bed. When I went to bed that night, it was quick, easy and I slept for 11 hours straight. I woke up the next day with no more mild headaches, but my head still felt different. On the 2nd night after the session, I again slept easily (I normally take about 30-45 minutes to sleep) - but this time it was full of dreams, that I can't really recall. While I still have anxiety thought loops, I feel now that the"hard edge" to these thoughts have lessened, and I can rein in these thoughts better.

On a side note; when I arrived at the NO practitioners place -it was a blazing tropical hot day with the temp at 35C, and the sky was clear with a few clouds, and there was no sign of any rain nearby, or dark clouds. Within 20 minutes, and just before he clipped the electrodes to my head; I suddenly heard peals of thunder (as I was in room with no windows to look out), and as the NO session started the thunder gave way to an intense microburst of heavy rain. After the session 33 minutes later, I walked out of the room, and the rain had stopped abruptly about 5 minutes before that, the sky was clear with no dark clouds, and it was blazing hot again. I wonder what that was all about, and I guess it could just have been a coincidence.

I have now scheduled my next session on Tuesday, and im definitely going to continue this process until 30-40 sessions and to see how it goes.
 
I've caught up reading this thread and glad I did.
There is an interesting guidelines PDF on the NeurOptimal site that debunks some myths about the system such as how frequent can the sessions be:

NeurOptimal Myth Busters
"NeurOptimal® cannot hurt you nor create side effects."

I don't think this is a straight answer, given all the after effects people have reported.

"Start with “Regular” and stay with “Regular”, no matter who you are training. Since AutoNAV came to be, easing into your sessions using initial, 2nd & 3rd is no longer necessary."
I decided to do extended version (about 45 minutes)

Are the creators saying that they just want people to run regular sessions with the default autonav, and not to bother with the other settings or options?

"If you find it a challenge to keep a child seated during a full session, quiet activities like reading, homework, or board games are fine. They can even watch a movie."
The renter mentioned that the effectiveness with Hollywood movies is 95% compared to the default visual.
Yesterday I asked the lady from whom I rented NeurOptimal device about usefulness of video sessions and she didn't recommend it for adults. She said that it's mostly for children and that it's less effective than audio because "the optical signal is slower and our eyes are more sluggish".
I'm glad the visual option is still 95% effective as that seems pretty good to me, especially with the alternative of 0 for people who won't stay with it.

The rental prices I've found so far are $800 for 20 sessions or $1,050 for unlimited sessions per month. Those are not small amounts of money, so I'm still pondering what I'm going to do. Having the tendency to go all in, if I did rent for a month, then I'd probably do what Gandalf did with the unlimited rental and run 200 sessions in that month between myself and friends and family.
If this gadget shows the results that are claimed for it, we are definitely going to get one and make it available to all our FOTCM members even if we have to ship it to a member who can act as operator for a particular area so that peeps have access. I don't think that cost should be a barrier to our members.

I was wondering if there is there a member in Western US who can act as the operator?
 
Are the creators saying that they just want people to run regular sessions with the default autonav, and not to bother with the other settings or options?
They do. But there must be a difference between a regular version (33 minutes) and the extended one (45 minutes), IMO. Especially if you have to pay for each session and both regular and extended versions cost the same. I mean, it's like doing 1,5 sessions for the price of one.
 
The rental prices I've found so far are $800 for 20 sessions or $1,050 for unlimited sessions per month. Those are not small amounts of money, so I'm still pondering what I'm going to do. Having the tendency to go all in, if I did rent for a month, then I'd probably do what Gandalf did with the unlimited rental and run 200 sessions in that month between myself and friends and family.


I was wondering if there is there a member in Western US who can act as the operator?

Well, the sessions cost about 50 bux per, average, and a person should have probably more than 20 if possible. That right there is 1,000 bux. So, you save 200 on the sessions for one person with the 800 buck rental. Paying 250 more for unlimited, you can potentially do a LOT of sessions.

Check in the FOTCM section for any interest in your area.
 
"Start with “Regular” and stay with “Regular”, no matter who you are training. Since AutoNAV came to be, easing into your sessions using initial, 2nd & 3rd is no longer necessary."


Are the creators saying that they just want people to run regular sessions with the default autonav, and not to bother with the other settings or options?

"If you find it a challenge to keep a child seated during a full session, quiet activities like reading, homework, or board games are fine. They can even watch a movie."


I'm glad the visual option is still 95% effective as that seems pretty good to me, especially with the alternative of 0 for people who won't stay with it.


The options in NO2 to run anything other than the standard session - e.g. to begin with Session 1 settings etc or to manually change the Zen timings, or for that matter to change all kinds of parameters in manual mode is a legacy from Neurocare when there was still an element of linear thinking, and it was believed for example that some clients could not immediately handle the deep brain training of Zen 3.

When NO was automated we soon discovered that automated neurofeedback delivered a far better training than a trainer could manually deliver and we found through long term practice, that the default Zen timings delivered the best training for all clients. Zen 3 is the mode in NO where really deep change can be achieved. But this is "set up" through the preceding 2 Zen modes. And Zen mode 4 integrates the sessions (we found that if a session is cut short and Zen 4 is shortened or left out, the benefit is not so significant, or worse, the client may feel disorientated. So yes, Val and Sue's advice is only to use NO in autonav without changing Zen mode timings.

The only exception is running the 45 minute instead of the 33 minute session. However, contrary to what you might expect, the effect of the two will be the same. The longer one is not producing more. The 33 minute session is achieving as much as can be achieved in one session. So why bother? Quite simpy, some clients enjoy or even treasure the chill out time. For example, I have a client with 2 autistic children. Her NO session is the highlight of her week and the only time when she experiences significant rest time. So we dispense with the usual chit chat and run a 45 minute session. She usually falls asleep or drifts in and out of sleep and awakes newed and restored.

With regards to the effectiveness of movies v music. VAL is very clear. He says movies are as effective as music for children and adults. Even though you may think an movie may have less soundtrack and therefore less feedback interruptions, the evidence of Val's analysis of sessions shows that movies are just as effective, and therefore the choice of medium is just personal preference. In NO3 there are also some streaming options (these are very much still in development) which for example include YouTube which will be great for teenagers I think.
 
Well, the sessions cost about 50 bux per, average, and a person should have probably more than 20 if possible. That right there is 1,000 bux. So, you save 200 on the sessions for one person with the 800 buck rental. Paying 250 more for unlimited, you can potentially do a LOT of sessions.
Check in the FOTCM section for any interest in your area.

Pourriez vous donner le lien FOTCM concernant les régions en France ?... Merci d'avance...
Could you give the FOTCM link concerning the regions in France?... Thank you in advance...
 
I've just completed my third session and feel very tired. The only thing to report after my first session is that an old soft tissue injury in my shoulder and collar bone area flared up in a minor way for a few hours, but after that the area feels a lot looser and relaxed. Prior to this recent flare up, I hadn't felt pain in that area for months. During my second session my hands were very warm and there was pins and needles.
 
Pourriez vous donner le lien FOTCM concernant les régions en France ?... Merci d'avance...
Could you give the FOTCM link concerning the regions in France?... Thank you in advance...

There is no FOTCM link, but there is a discussion about it in the private forum to which you have access.
 
Hello choepel, I have a question.

I have done a bit of digging and if I understood well, the very principle of NO is based upon the fact that our brain is hard wired to react to a sudden change in our environment. When this happen, our brain stop its task to focus on the change. NO exploit this (by interrupting the listened sound), so learn to "remove" turbulences of neurons by negative feedback (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, don't we have to practice NO on a large set of circumstances?

I mean, don't we have to practice NO when doing math for example so the brain learn to calm down turbulences generated only when doing math? An so on...
 
I checked out a place today that offers NeurOptimal called Quantify Fitness. They also do HIIT Body by Science workouts that they advertise as a ten minute workout once a week. They have specialized equipment with computers that monitor TUL, total force exerted throughout the exercise, etc. And they offer FIR Sauna's and that's it! So they managed to find all the cutting edge stuff. But they're cost prohibitive.
They want $329/ month just for once a week 30 minute NeurOptimal sessions. $599/ month for twice a week.

Added: Those prices don't include the weight training which is another $300/ month
 
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