NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

Gandalf said:
Can I verify that info with another practitioner?

My way of seeing it is a bit different. Many people spent thousand of dollars trying to ameliorate/cure/solve some issues that they have with no or very small results. When you consider that seeing a psychologist can cost 100$/session and if you want some results you must make an appointment each week for a couple of years, at the end it is pretty expensive (100$x40weeksx3years=12 000$). So, I think that someone has also to consider the emotional/psychological/physical benefits to evaluate properly the real cost of NO3.

And I understand that you don't have a clinic but you can still rent the NO3 for week/month, offer free sessions to friends before renting it, organize meetings with family, friends to share the information about the Neuroptimal system...

And as usual, have faith in the Universe and the Universe will take care of that.

Good idea.
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That is a good point and I do agree that this technology is incredible. I was thinking that it may cost you $12 000(just to use your numbers) to work through a particular issue with therapy, but with NO you would be able to do it in much less time, you would probably pay half that amount or less and go much deeper than therapy can do. So for the client the NO is a blessing, but for the practitioner the gains are less per client. Now if NO becomes more popular(which it should?) that just means you'll need to get more clients as a practitioner.... Oh I see, I had a thinking error in my previous posts(maybe more than one). There is no reason why a client would buy the professional system for their home use since the session amount they would need would be (probably) under 100. Jeez zar, were is your brain at these days:huh:.

Yes of course you can verify if you have the means, just maybe don't mention the source.

@Chu They are working to figure it out, and I hope they do.

Laura said:
How many NO sessions have you done, Zar?
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I lost track but I believe I've done somewhere over 40 sessions, and I'm still integrating stuff.
 
It's frustrating to hear that a certification your practitioner paid a large sum of money for was simply revoked, and I hope she gets some compensation or restitution for it in some way. But is there a chance that some of this "inside scoop" she offered has been unconsciously filtered by emotions related to this discourtesy she was subjected to?
 
whitecoast said:
It's frustrating to hear that a certification your practitioner paid a large sum of money for was simply revoked, and I hope she gets some compensation or restitution for it in some way. But is there a chance that some of this "inside scoop" she offered has been unconsciously filtered by emotions related to this discourtesy she was subjected to?
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And was there a reason for the "discourtesy"?
 
Zar said:
There is no reason why a client would buy the professional system for their home use since the session amount they would need would be (probably) under 100
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The reason for having a professional system for a client is to share the system with all his/her closed family, daughters, sons, brothers, sisters... So a family can buy one system that could be share with many people.

I agree that a pro system just for one person is of no interest but since on of the goals of Dr Brown and his wife is to help people, why not share it with our family and friends.

By the way, I know that 11000$US is a lot of money but have you looked the price for other Neurofeedback systems?

Zar said:
or even cancelling the "masters certificate" from the NO practitioners when they've spent thousands of dollars to get it(though I get that Val wants to make NO very simple for the users, that's kind of a slap on the face to these people who got the certificate).
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whitecoast said:
It's frustrating to hear that a certification your practitioner paid a large sum of money for was simply revoked, and I hope she gets some compensation or restitution for it in some way. But is there a chance that some of this "inside scoop" she offered has been unconsciously filtered by emotions related to this discourtesy she was subjected to?
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Laura said:
And was there a reason for the "discourtesy"?
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Zar was it only for one person or for all persons having done the master certificate? What was the reason for that ? A new way of working, a new version of the system with less requirements,... ??? It seems that on the Zengar website, that there is a basic certification and a advanced certification.

May I say that following the interview with Sott radio, it bothers me a bit to read that since it is not in the philosophy of Dr Brown and his wife.

Zar said:
Yes of course you can verify if you have the means, just maybe don't mention the source.
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Will do.
 
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Laura said:
And was there a reason for the "discourtesy"?
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I think the reason is that with NO3 there is no need to decipher any graphs, so no need for any certificates. Just plug and play.

It's hard to say whether the loss of the certificate was the filter for this thought process. Most of this info came from other practitioners except, I guess I should have mentioned, that the bit about the storage of tablets is theoretical. She theorized that to be the case with other pieces of information.

Gandalf said:
The reason for having a professional system for a client is to share the system with all his/her closed family, daughters, sons, brothers, sisters... So a family can buy one system that could be share with many people.

I agree that a pro system just for one person is of no interest but since on of the goals of Dr Brown and his wife is to help people, why not share it with our family and friends.

By the way, I know that 11000$US is a lot of money but have you looked the price for other Neurofeedback systems?
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Well the business decisions are what bother me a little, and maybe I'm hitting a blind spot here in my ignorance. The home system is $7 000 USD($9 000 canadian) for 100 sessions (used to be 300), that means each session is worth $90 CAD. That's $5 dollars more than what it would cost if you go with a practitioner. That seems odd to me, why phase out practitioners when it's cheaper and a safer purchase for clients. Considering that NeruOptimal isn't that popular yet, practitioners are a perfect marketing solution so again why phase them out. And what market is Val trying to target? the US? Canada? Europe? I don't see many people being able to afford buying the system in our current economic bubble and chaotic times. As it stands very few people even go to therapy so I'm not sure how successful this will be.

One other thing I was thinking is that the price of an NO session should not be the same as a therapy session. The gain is greater for the client but what Val has created is software. This type of technology will revolutionize therapy and maybe even make it obsolete, and it should make it(NO's value) much cheaper unless you monopolize it. Also if he wanted this to be in every home(like he says is his goal) he could easily make a downloadable software for a price of about $2000 or something and help many people, but instead he's not even patenting anything from what I hear. So how honest is his philosophy? maybe it includes him making loads of cash... And if someone reverse engineers this and posts it to the net... then it would be even cheaper, hopefully not free though(no free lunch and all that jazz).

Anywho just some thoughts I have about it and I'm not that business savy so take it with a grain of salt.
 
Laura said:
I have a bit of an issue with the cost as well and I agree that the guy would probably make a LOT more money lowering the price and making MORE SALES, and thereby helping more people.
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Same here.

The thing is, the NO software is "written" in LabVIEW. That's the system used by people like physicists so that they can create applications that do stuff without having to actually be able to program very well. The media player is Kodi in NO3, which is an open source free media player app that's quite good.

From what I've seen (and I haven't reverse-engineered anything, so take with a grain of salt), I think that if they paid someone who knows what they're doing, the entire system could be WAAAAY faster and run on winkier hardware easily.

Even if the Top Secret Math its doing is complicated, there are ways to get around that. But again, you have to get somebody who knows what they're doing. And clearly, if they're using LabVIEW, they don't have anyone like that.

As for the Top Secrecy surrounding the "algorithm" it uses, that's another funny thing. I can understand why it would be kept Top Secret, especially if the mainstream would rip it apart should it be made public. We know how that kind of thing goes...

At the same time, it's rather unfortunate because those of us who like to know who things work will never find out. That doesn't bode well for the long-term success and widespread deployment of the techniques involved. It's a bit like:

Person: "So how does it work? Is it like this?"

Val: "No. You're thinking about it all wrong."

Person: "Okay, so is it like that?"

Val: "No, it's nothing like that."

Person: "Well, what the hell IS it, then?!"

:lol:
Well, as far as I can tell, it works - which is nice. But I'm also not surprised at the problems.
 
Scottie said:
The thing is, the NO software is "written" in LabVIEW. That's the system used by people like physicists so that they can create applications that do stuff without having to actually be able to program very well. The media player is Kodi in NO3, which is an open source free media player app that's quite good.

From what I've seen (and I haven't reverse-engineered anything, so take with a grain of salt), I think that if they paid someone who knows what they're doing, the entire system could be WAAAAY faster and run on winkier hardware easily.
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Exactly! I looked a bit into LabVIEW architecture and it's far from being able to deliver optimized software. LabVIEW programs are written as graphs (or diagrams) and converted into machine code using LLVM. Well, LLVM is a very good piece of software, but it simply cannot optimize complex algorithms on par with humans. NO receives only 2 data streams with pretty low frequency (somewhere between 128 and 1024 Hz, most probably not more than 256 Hz since their zAmp is pretty outdated) which means there are simply not enough data to put modern Core i5 on its knees. I wouldn't be surprised if NO would run on a modern smartphone if it was written using low-level language like C++ / Rust / you name it.
 
aimarok said:
...there are simply not enough data to put modern Core i5 on its knees. I wouldn't be surprised if NO would run on a modern smartphone if it was written using low-level language like C++ / Rust / you name it.
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Exactly. And our NO machine is a Core i7!
:shock:

Even if the math involves lots of Fourier Transforms or something, that's what modern GPUs (even in a smartphone) can do quite well.

Imagine everyone using a zAmp connected to their smartphone and a convenient easy-to-use helmet to do NO... instead of playing Pokemon Go and walking off a cliff.
:whistle:
 
So, its has been about 5 sessions, and had been reading the The Health & Wellness Show: Interview With Dr. Valdeane Brown - Nonlinear Dynamic Thinking With NeurOptimal Neurofeedback, it had helped to get familiarized about the purpose of the "interruptions", I had been thinking that, experiencied them is quite bothersome to me, and had been comparing them with the "interruptions" I do have pretty much ... daily overcorwded sidewalks, bus, subway; the interruptions when I am concetrated in something and the telephone rings (not cellphone), interruptions while being engange with a client and another one pops in, interruptions while sweeping the street, interruptions of other kind like intertet stalling, and the like ... a couple of years ago I noticed that I become a little angrier by such interruptions, and began to practice -so to speak- to be in an activity and be interrupted on purpose by whatever and to not be bothersome or angry by such interruptions, so its curious that now in the NO I experienced them as bothersome ... there has been a couple of times that I had been counting them, but .... I had realized that counting them is like counting sheep and I feel dizzy and end up giving nods ... last time wanted to identfy somehow the interruptions, they are not the same ... I had read that, if one just zoned out (fall asleep) is ok, but just did not -seem to no want to do it- and ended up doing this nods that after reaching home realized that it was tiredsome, it did not transformed in a headache but I felt the head bloated.

This 2018 had been quite stressful to me, full with challenges and pressures, within this 5 session cannot say that I am less anxious, but I had noticed some non verbal issues that they pop there in the mind that ain't going elsewhere until I take in the mater to work again with them, and, I think it had helped me to see other issues with another perspecive? ... I do remember that there was a job issued revolving in mi mind after a session I had, the being worried about that specif job issue dissappear ... sometimes it cames back and it would be coming back until it happends, but for the time beings it helps to not overthinking about it ...
 
L'Univers m'a entendue...
Le 16 08 18 de 9h30 à 11h30, je reçois Aurélie Egretteau qui se trouve en Suisse, elle vient m'appporter le matériel NO3 à mon domicile sur la Côte d'Azur, elle me formera et me donnera une première séance de 33 minutes, me montrera comment fixer les capteurs.. Il est prévu 10 séances à raison d'une séance par semaine pour commencer pour voir comment je me sens...
Voici ces coordonnées pour d'autres Français ou Suisses qui pourraient être intéressés :

Mail : neurosources@gmail.com
Site : www.neurosources.com
Lien presse : Neurofeedback Dynamique | Genève | Neurosources | MEDIA PRESSE
N'hésitez pas à la contacter c'est une personne très humaine
A bientôt de vous ratonter cette première expérience...


The universe heard me...
On 16 08 18 from 9h30 to 11h30, I receive Aurélie Egretteau who is in Switzerland, she comes to bring me the NO3 material at my home on the French Riviera, she will train me and will give me a first session of 33 minutes, will show me how to fix the sensors. There are 10 sessions scheduled once a week to start to see how I feel...

Here are these coordinates for other French or Swiss who might be interested:
Mail : neurosources@gmail.com
Site : www.neurosources.com
Press link: Neurofeedback Dynamique | Genève | Neurosources | MEDIA PRESSE

Don't hesitate to contact her, she's a very human person.
See you soon to miss this first experience...
 
@SlavaOn There are many different types of neurofeedback. One of them may be effective than others for different persons. Some types of neurofeedback can even be dangerous if not done by a professional. And they all of course can be based on a placebo effect to some extent or another depending on the person who receives the treatment which probably applies to many other medical treatments/trainings.
You might be interested in the listening of this interview: The Health & Wellness Show: Interview With Dr. Valdeane Brown - Nonlinear Dynamic Thinking With NeurOptimal Neurofeedback
 
I had noticed this week that my OCD's (Obsessive-compulsive disorders) had lessen a little bit , in fact , I had been thinking when these started, they had changed over time and, I belive they originated after ... I could say some sort of post traumatic episode ... that it was not that traumatic, now that I think of it, but it was a kind of origin of other issues I had been having since then, it was at 1999 ... the OCD's I had been having around this years are, checking the stove keys many times before leaving for work or going to sleep, checking the purse to see that effectively I have the credit/debit cards and ID's minutes later I opened it, and, after reaching home and before going to sleep, checking If I close the door with its correspondented locks before going out or going to sleep, ... and lately, checking at work, all stuff being unplunged except the alarm before closing ... I had noticed that I had checked less and that most important, I do not have urgency to check them again and again ... in other times it had helped me to do it conscioulsy ... if I do it in an automatic mode, I do not trust myself and need to check them ...again
 
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