New Objective:Health Episode: The Hidden Dangers of Oxalates in Your Food‌ - Interview With Sally K. Norton

[Keyhole]

In our most recent episode of Objective:Health, we interviewed oxalate expert Sally Norton, who shines light on the many hidden dangers of long-term elevated oxalate consumption.

Warning: After listening to this episode, you will likely reconsider what you consider to be "treats" in your diet. After learning more and more about this topic, I believe it has the potential to be a game-changer for many people's health.

MOST of the "health foods" we eat liberally in Paleo or Keto diets are extremely high in oxalates. This is absolutely essential listening!

 

[thorbiorn]

Here is a link to the web page of Sally K. Norton: Sally K. Norton - Vitality Coach, Speaker & Health Consultant This page is about oxalates: Little known facts about oxalates and their poisonous effects - Sally K. Norton

HIGH OXALATE

This High Oxalate Snack with peanut butter and raspberries on seeded bread has about 70 to 90mg of oxalate
Beans, grains, bran, seeds (sesame, poppy, and other seeds), peanuts, almonds and other nuts, Swiss chard, spinach, beets, potatoes, sweet potatoes, chocolate, rhubarb, figs, kiwi, blackberries, and seasonings including black pepper, cumin, and turmeric are all high in oxalates.

LOW OXALATE
Meats, dairy, eggs, other non-plant foods, and fats and oils of all types.


This low-oxalate arugula salad with shrimp and pumpkin seeds contains about 6mg oxalate
Many vegetables, including arugula, avocado, bok choy, cabbage, cauliflower, cilantro, cucumber, garlic, kohlrabi, lettuce, mustard greens, mushrooms, onions, red bell pepper, green peas, winter squash, turnips, and watercress, are low in oxalates.

It’s a myth that green vegetables are all high in oxalates!

Oxalate Can Come From You
Your body makes some oxalate as a metabolic waste product. Metabolic oxalate is usually made at a rate, pace, and quantity that your body is equipped to excrete. Many assaults and other factors, including genetics, may cause an over-production of metabolic oxalate in some people. This situation would lead to systemic problems, but has not been adequately studied. The biochemistry of oxalate is a neglected “Cinderella” topic in science.

Although crystals of oxalates are the focus of the show, there are also other crystals that can be formed in the body: Crystals in Urine: Causes, Home Treatments, and When To See a Doctor

 

[nicklebleu]

WOW!!! Halfway through the interview, and for me this is an eye opener. I think it may clear up quite a bit of confusion about why certain diets work for certain people, and others don’t.

I have just been on a 4-week carnivorous diet (beef and salt only). First two weeks I got sick (carb flu/ oxalates streaming back from storage sites?), but then I felt really well. I have started to slowly add foodstuffs back. The overall impression I got is that I am perfectly ok with animal foods (all meats, eggs, dairy etc.), but when I started reitroducing green vegetables, I lost a lot of that zing that I had acquired over the last 4 weeks. Nothing dramatic, just little niggles like a stiff back etc - but I was definitely much better on meat only. So I will try to stick to low-oxalate food for the near future to see if I can find the sweet spot.

Unfortunately my beloved Pu’erh is on the high-oxalate list ...

Here is a link with a comprehensive list of oxalate content in food.

Thanks for this fantastic interview!

 

[mrtn]

Here is a link with a comprehensive list of oxalate content in food.

Thanks, very nice. You can also sort by content.

Coconut water

100 g edible portion of fresh weight

318 mg

FAO Bangladesh 2014

Coconut water is higher in oxalate than I would have thought. Coconut products are usually listed as low oxalate.
Apples are quite low (including apple butter).

A friend of mine who ate a lot of potato (and also a lot of grain products like bread and buns) got some kidney stones removed. I heard once that occurrence of kidney stones is psychologically linked to shock experiences. some weeks or month prior to the kidney stones this friend had an accident where he broke is ankle, and I think it was a little shock experience to some degree. So I wonder if shock experiences can cause the body to dump oxalates, or/and if this could even be utilized, for example, taking cold showers or adrenalin raising activity might put small dose shocks/stress on the body that might help to gradually dump oxalate. Without the component of unexpectedness or fear it's maybe not a real shock, but who knows if the body actually would know the difference.
Just some thoughts I had yesterday.
Anyway Thanks for the new video and information.

Oh and it's interesting that oxalate gets deposited in injured tissue. I had acne on my back and sholders when I was younger and you can still see some scars. Now I'm on carnivore diet for the most part since some months and this acne comes back. Mostly when I eat butter, the more butter I eat the worse it gets, but maybe its also related to oxalate dumping. I also currently have some kind of sun allergy coming back a little on my hands that I had one summer when I was in school.
Something is happening . Good to know it could take years, as has been mentioned in the video, so I won't lose heart.

 

[Alana]

Great interview you all. You asked very good questions, and Sally not only knew the subject really well, but she was also talking with a passion from personal experience that makes it easy for anyone to understand her, even when she is talking chemistry. I did not feel as warmly towards her when she started talking about the foods to avoid (dark chocolate, black tea, almonds ) but by the end, after mentioning the "keep a bit of your favorites" in your diet, I warmed up to her again

The one thing that surprised me was her mention of vitamin C and oxalate production. I did a search and apparently, there are a few papers mentioning it too. One example:

Ascorbic Acid Intake and Oxalate Synthesis

Quote from article's conclusion:

Epidemiological evidence indicates that the amount of AA ingested is a risk factor for calcium oxalate stone disease and that this risk is associated with the amount of oxalate excreted in urine. Short term experiments with human subjects have confirmed that supplemental AA increases urinary oxalate excretion. The available evidence presented above indicates that the oxidized form of AA, DHA, can form an open chain isomer, DKA, which is unstable and breaks down to oxalate and 4-carbon sugars. What is not clear is how much AA and DHA is metabolized in cells and tissues, and how much is converted to DKA and ultimately oxalate. Each of these pathways may be influenced by the diet, physiological effectors or by genetic variation. How the amount converted to oxalate is modulated is important knowledge to accrue to decrease endogenous oxalate synthesis and to identify optimal intake levels for individuals with calcium oxalate stone disease. While our investigations on the sources of endogenous oxalate synthesis indicate that hydroxyproline metabolism may account for 30 – 40%, it remains possible that AA is also a major source. Finally, it is clear that compromised renal function coupled with excessive AA ingestion can result in oxalate nephropathy in susceptible individuals.

 

[genero81]

I did not feel as warmly towards her when she started talking about the foods to avoid (dark chocolate, black tea, almonds ) but by the end, after mentioning the "keep a bit of your favorites" in your diet, I warmed up to her again

I'm with you on that as I love all those foods you just mentioned! In fact, I'm having iced tea as I write this.

 

[Gaby]

The one thing that surprised me was her mention of vitamin C and oxalate production. I did a search and apparently, there are a few papers mentioning it too.

It seems that even though there might be oxalate production as a result of ascorbate metabolism, the ascorbate itself will prevent the union between oxalate and calcium, and it will also increase the urinary excretion of these oxalates without the risk of developing stones. That sounds good! In this sense, fears of oxalates from vitamin C seems unjustified, specially within the context of the clinical benefits of vitamin C infusions in various diseases such as cancer, which an oxalate free diet is no match. However, nowadays this oxalate thing is one of the reasons why vitamin C is contraindicated in kidney stone problems, even though practitioners in the past noted that these kidney stones were inhibited with vitamin C.

From the Vitamin C's historical record:

Vitamin C's Historical and Miraculous Record | The Health Matrix

If you are not familiarized with vitamin C’s miraculous record, now it is a good time to discover this treasure! First brought to my attention as a recommendation to a friend of mine who was critically ill, I was astounded to find out about the numerous testimonials around the world and its...

health-matrix.net

-Chief factors in the formation of renal calculi are perversions of metabolic processes, infection and stasis in the urinary tract. Stasis and a concentrated urine appear to be the chief physiological factors. The only way that oxalic acid can be produced from ascorbic acid is through splitting of the lactone ring. This happens above pH5. The reaction of urine when 10 grams of vitamin C is taken daily is usually pH6. Oxalic acid precipitates out of solution only from a neutral or alkaline solution-pH7 to pH10. Ingestion of 9 grams ascorbic acid daily resulted in oxalate spills as high as 68 mg for 24 hours and in the controls without extra vitamin C the high was 64 mg for a 24 hour period.

-The amount of oxalic acid found in the diabetic patient approximates that found in the urine of a normal person taking 10 grams vitamin C each day. Give this individual 10 grams ascorbic acid daily, by mouth, and the urinary oxalate excretion remains relatively unchanged. Diabetics are known for their diuresis. The individual who takes 10 or more grams of vitamin C each day will find that this organic compound is an excellent diuretic. No urinary stasis; no urine concentration. [...]

-Oxalic acid precipitates out of solution only from a neutral or alkaline solution—pH 7 to pH 10. Urine pH in those consuming ten grams of Vitamin C daily is about 6. Even in diabetics who take this large amount of C (10 grams), the urinary oxalate excretion remains relatively unchanged. “Vitamin C is an excellent diuretic. No urinary stasis; no urine concentration. The ascorbic acid/kidney stone story is a myth.”

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n10.shtml

Although there have been allegations about vitamin C supposedly causing kidney stones, there is no evidence for this, and its acidity and diuretic tendency actually tends to reduce kidney stones in most people who are prone to them [1,7]. Ascorbic acid dissolves calcium phosphate stones and dissolves struvite stones. Additionally, while vitamin C does increase oxalate excretion, vitamin C simultaneously inhibits the union of calcium and oxalate. [1,2].

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml

People with recurrent stone formation may have an unusual biochemistry, leading to increased production of oxalate from vitamin C. (6) Oxalate and urate can accumulate in kidney stones. In practice, there is an increased excretion of both oxalate and urate with gram level doses of vitamin C (ascorbate). Various authors over the years have used this increase to predict that vitamin C will cause kidney stones; however, these predictions have never been confirmed.

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v06n24.shtml

Does vitamin C cause kidney stones?
No. The myth of the vitamin C-caused kidney stone is rivaled in popularity only by the Loch Ness Monster. A factoid-crazy medical media often overlooks the fact that William J. McCormick, M.D., demonstrated that vitamin C actually prevents the formation of kidney stones. He did so in 1946, when he published a paper on the subject. (8) His work was confirmed by University of Alabama professor of medicine Emanuel Cheraskin, M.D.. Dr. Cheraskin showed that vitamin C inhibits the formation of oxalate stones. (9)

Other research reports that: "Even though a certain part of oxalate in the urine derives from metabolized ascorbic acid, the intake of high doses of vitamin C does not increase the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones. . . (I)n the large- scale Harvard Prospective Health Professional Follow-Up Study, those groups in the highest quintile of vitamin C intake (greater than 1,500 mg/day) had a lower risk of kidney stones than the groups in the lowest quintiles." (10)

Dr. Robert F. Cathcart said, "I started using vitamin C in massive doses in patients in 1969. By the time I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive doses to patients. Up to 2006, I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive doses and added magnesium and B-6 to their program and no more kidney stones. I think they developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C."

 

[3DStudent]

Here is a link with a comprehensive list of oxalate content in food.

Thanks for that. In another podcast, I heard about Susan Owens. I found her FB page, but could not find the database with the list of oxalates in foods. Does anyone have the link to that?

 

[nicklebleu]

The problem with oxalate content in food is that different sources report massively different oxalate contents. Sally alluded to this problem in passing, that different soil or farming practices might account for some of these differences. I think oxalate toxicity is real but I also think that - as she said at the end of her talk - that we should not totally obsess about it. I am going to tweak my diet to reduce high oxalate food sources, but won’t try to totally eliminate it, given that I have no major symptoms. It might be different for someone with her range and intensity of symptoms.

Good to hear from Gaby that vitamin C is probably not really an issue! Thanks for the work-up.

 

[Alana]

It seems that even though there might be oxalate production as a result of ascorbate metabolism, the ascorbate itself will prevent the union between oxalate and calcium, and it will also increase the urinary excretion of these oxalates without the risk of developing stones. That sounds good! In this sense, fears of oxalates from vitamin C seems unjustified, specially within the context of the clinical benefits of vitamin C infusions in various diseases such as cancer, which an oxalate free diet is no match. However, nowadays this oxalate thing is one of the reasons why vitamin C is contraindicated in kidney stone problems, even though practitioners in the past noted that these kidney stones were inhibited with vitamin C.

Thanks for digging up all these info, Gaby. I did wonder about that, because I have taken vitamin C in doses way higher than the official recommendations for days on end, even in the absence of any sickness, and I never experienced any negative symptoms. On the contrary, it gives me energy, boosts my immune system, even helps with stress and anxiety among other things. Now I wonder if the vitamin C/oxalate connection is just another case of misguided and/or intentional bad press for vitamin C, because it can really make a difference for so many conditions way easier and cheaper than mainstream medicine.

 

[Keyhole]

Now I wonder if the vitamin C/oxalate connection is just another case of misguided and/or intentional bad press for vitamin C, because it can really make a difference for so many conditions way easier and cheaper than mainstream medicine.

Well, megadosing appears to operate on another level and like Gaby said above, mitigates the oxalate formation via pH balance or whatever - so thanks for that Gaby! If I got cancer I would totally go the route of IV vitamin C.

However, small doses of vitamin C above 500mg orally do increase urinary oxalate excretion in the research - that much is clear. Question is, does this differ between people and immune status? Like, if someone is healthy and takes a bunch of vitamin C, is less "used" and so more converts to oxalate, whereas if they are sick it may not be converted to oxalate? Also, in someone without an oxalate issue, perhaps the level of oxalate that may be produced is not problematic in any way for that individual?

As Sally said, the research is lacking on practically every area. However, there are clear increases is urinary oxalate after ascorbate supplementation - characteristic of auto-oxidation of ascorbate into oxalate - but whether that is a universal problem is unknown.

 

[istina]

Thanks for that. In another podcast, I heard about Susan Owens. I found her FB page, but could not find the database with the list of oxalates in foods. Does anyone have the link to that?

For that you will have to join the FB group Trying Low Oxalates (TLO), and then you will have to send your email address to admin to get TLO-spreadsheet with the list of foods.

 

[dugdeep]

Well, megadosing appears to operate on another level and like Gaby said above, mitigates the oxalate formation via pH balance or whatever - so thanks for that Gaby! If I got cancer I would totally go the route of IV vitamin C.

However, small doses of vitamin C above 500mg orally do increase urinary oxalate excretion in the research - that much is clear. Question is, does this differ between people and immune status? Like, if someone is healthy and takes a bunch of vitamin C, is less "used" and so more converts to oxalate, whereas if they are sick it may not be converted to oxalate? Also, in someone without an oxalate issue, perhaps the level of oxalate that may be produced is not problematic in any way for that individual?

As Sally said, the research is lacking on practically every area. However, there are clear increases is urinary oxalate after ascorbate supplementation - characteristic of auto-oxidation of ascorbate into oxalate - but whether that is a universal problem is unknown.

That's how I'm reading it too. If you're taking enough vitamin C to change urine pH, the oxalate is prevented from binding to calcium and forming crystals, but doses under this amount are not prevented from doing so. It may be that 'the dose equals the poison', but somewhat counter-intuitively, the higher doses are the safer option.

The study posted by Alana mentions that reduced glutathione will convert breakdown product of vitamin C, dehydroascorbate (DHA, confusingly), back to ascorbic acid (AA), regenerating it, so to speak. By regenerating ascorbic acid, it prevents the further breakdown of DHA along a biochemical chain ending in oxalate.

Circulating AA can be taken up and concentrated in cells and tissues where it can act as an antioxidant resulting in the formation of the ascorbyl radical18. The loss of a further electron results in the formation of DHA. Two ascorbyl radicals can readily dismute to AA and DHA. DHA can also be converted back to AA through an interaction with reduced glutathione. Glutaredoxin and possibly other enzymes have been reported to play a role in this reduction19, 42. The formation and removal of DHA is potentially important for oxalate formation from AA as a fraction of the DHA irreversibly forms the open chain diketogulonic acid (DKG), an unstable molecule that can break down to oxalate43. The conditions that promote or limit the breakdown of both DHA and DKG have not been well characterized. This is a major limitation in determining the contribution of AA metabolism to oxalate synthesis.

All this to say, maybe having a good glutathione status is one of the determining factors in smaller doses of vitamin C converting to oxalate. This may account for why the connection between ascorbate supplementation and oxalate stone formation is so tenuous and seems to only affect some people. But that's just a guess since, as the article states, the research on this is lacking.

 

[Gaby]

All this to say, maybe having a good glutathione status is one of the determining factors in smaller doses of vitamin C converting to oxalate. This may account for why the connection between ascorbate supplementation and oxalate stone formation is so tenuous and seems to only affect some people. But that's just a guess since, as the article states, the research on this is lacking.

It's interesting that protocols include glutathione in the vitamin C IV infusion.

 

[trendsetter37]

Well, megadosing appears to operate on another level and like Gaby said above, mitigates the oxalate formation via pH balance or whatever - so thanks for that Gaby! If I got cancer I would totally go the route of IV vitamin C.

However, small doses of vitamin C above 500mg orally do increase urinary oxalate excretion in the research - that much is clear. Question is, does this differ between people and immune status? Like, if someone is healthy and takes a bunch of vitamin C, is less "used" and so more converts to oxalate, whereas if they are sick it may not be converted to oxalate? Also, in someone without an oxalate issue, perhaps the level of oxalate that may be produced is not problematic in any way for that individual?

As Sally said, the research is lacking on practically every area. However, there are clear increases is urinary oxalate after ascorbate supplementation - characteristic of auto-oxidation of ascorbate into oxalate - but whether that is a universal problem is unknown.

When I read things like increases excretion of oxalate I'm thinking that simply means the body is able to remove more through sweat and urine. This could ultimately be a good thing. However, I'm guessing the assumption is that more excretion raises the probability of kidney stones for those that are susceptible.

Is this a correct assumption? Sorry haven't read the papers above yet.