No sense of self

[lilyalic]

Hello everyone :) Firstly I'd like to apologise for not being as involved with the forum as I'd like to have been for the past few weeks.

Since an important realisation the other month when I was directly informed I was using others energy for my own feeding purpose, I signed up for counselling at my University which won't begin for a few months due to high demands. I've been doing EE more frequently and having extreme vivid dreams - at the same time it seems I've been dissociating a lot.

I came to the realisation the other day that I have NO sense of self, I feel like a feeding machine as I mostly think about others, but in a totally narcissistly selfish way (even the voice in my head says "no it's not, it's because you care for others" ha!). It's as if I can't keep anything to myself, even if I written a diary I would write it in fear or hope that someone would read it. I feel like a bag of "I's" and that all my decisions (I'd like to think are thought through) are impulsive.

I think, or have come to a slight conclusion that due to my narcissistic mother having me so dependent on her from a young age, I couldn't create a sole personality of my own, when I turned 13 I started relationships with boys, and the longest I had been "single" or alone for was 4 months even up until now. I subconsciously found others with problems to distract me from my own, even when I was "single" I would have something "on the go" (also abusive relationships because of the whole deeming abuse as love)- I have an addiction to the closeness of others. At the moment, I'm involved with someone who has been doing the work for over a year, and it's hard because at the same time as being involved with this individual we're working on ourselves and "mirroring" - He had an easy upbringing with supportive parents, so in terms of the way we view things they are very differently.

We have decided not to have sexual encounters, although we weren't having sex in a predator way "Karezza", but to shove off the chemicals from that.

I was sat in front of the fire and could see the two main "I's" within myself, one that wants to be "good" and search for the work and the truth, and the other that basically says "bullshit, live in the false consciousness, it's just another form of entropy" ... I looked at myself in the mirror and something inside said "It's OK I've got you" - I think this is one of my dissociated ego states that looked after the 'others' - I'm going to read the Myth of Sanity again, and read "Strangers to Ourselves" again - carry on doing EE regularly and wait out the counselling services.

 

[Sol Logos]

A good question to ask yourself is what activities would you be doing if the judgement of others or your self judgement was not stopping you doing those things. If those things aren't hurting yourself or others, I reckon it would be a good idea to embark on one or more of them. Even if you're not sure if you'd like it or not, try it as a test for a while. If feelings of doubt about you being "good enough" make you want to stop, say following some creative pursuit, thinking about it as just an experiment to learn about yourself and your unique personality will help - in the sense of seeing it in another way, not as a reflection of you not being capable etc. But those feelings, as they are coming up would likely be pointing to some core woundings you mentioned like being inadequate on your own and so having a dependancy on a significant other. So I'd say its always valuable to allow and process some of those feelings in the process. I reckon among other things you're already doing it would really help with learning about yourself.

 

[Laura]

I don't know why you have called your thread here 'No sense of Self' when your Self is all you think or talk/write about.

 

[Oxajil]

at the same time it seems I've been dissociating a lot.

... I feel like a feeding machine as I mostly think about others, but in a totally narcissistly selfish way ... and that all my decisions ... are impulsive.

... when I turned 13 I started relationships with boys, and the longest I had been "single" or alone for was 4 months even up until now. ... I have an addiction to the closeness of others.

Hi lilyalic, I think that those are important realizations of yourself. However, I do not understand why the above isn't making you worry about or question your current motives for being in the relationship you're currently in. There also doesn't seem to be a realization of the hurt you've caused to others as a result of this behavior (going from one relationship to the next).

 

[Leonarda]

Hi lilyalic, can it be that you have developed addiction to drama as a consequence of your narcissistic mother? So you go from one big drama (my mother is a narcissist) to the next one (I have no sense of self)?

Do you recognize yourself in here? : http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2886.0

Narcissists are very reluctant to open up and trust, so it's possible that their NPD is not even recognized by therapists in short-term treatment

This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood.

Sometimes it just seems like they have a highly selective memory -- which, of course, they do, sort of; they pay attention only to what has their name in it in the first place

Narcissists are impulsive. They undo themselves by behavior that seems oddly stupid for people as intelligent as they are. Somehow, they don't consider the probable consequences of their actions

A practical approach to the problem could be reading carefully ISOTM again and trying to do the exercises Gurdjieff proposes as self-observation or self-remembering. So instead of looking at your image in the mirror and saying "OMG this is not me!" you would pay constant attention to everything you say and do (keeping a journal for example). But this is something that will take a lot of time, in the meantime you could also try to read the rest of the recommended books, specially the Wave and Secret History of the World because they expose the world as it is, so you may have something to focus/think about apart from yourself.

Other threads you may find helpful:

"Buffers, Programs and the Predator's mind"
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,6419.0.html

"Self-observation, inner talking and Work instrument"
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22.0.html


Finally, as Miyamoto Musashi says: When attacking a strong force it is difficult to attack it directly as it stands. In these cases, one attacks the corners. In large scale battles, after careful inspection of the enemy's forces, one can gain advantage by attacking the corners of exposed strategic points. When one has eliminated the strength of the corners, the strength of the whole will also be diminished

 

[lilyalic]

I don't know why you have called your thread here 'No sense of Self' when your Self is all you think or talk/write about.

The realisation that it's contradictory considering the amount of times "I" was used was discovered when I read over it.

Hi lilyalic, I think that those are important realizations of yourself. However, I do not understand why the above isn't making you worry about or question your current motives for being in the relationship you're currently in. There also doesn't seem to be a realization of the hurt you've caused to others as a result of this behavior (going from one relationship to the next).

Yes, I'm aware I need to form a conscience for the pain I inflict on others, the only explanation is that a numbness formed itself due to past relationships and being emotionally blackmailed. I'm working on this, it'll probably take a long time. I have noticed that observing "it" rather than "I" or wondering what am "I" thinking has helped.
The relationship I'm in now really does help with the mirroring and the bringing my "bad" to the surface and talking about it/ realising my emotions towards them etc.

 

[Oxajil]

Yes, I'm aware I need to form a conscience for the pain I inflict on others, the only explanation is that a numbness formed itself due to past relationships and being emotionally blackmailed. I'm working on this, it'll probably take a long time. I have noticed that observing "it" rather than "I" or wondering what am "I" thinking has helped.

I have noticed you use the terms I's, ''I'', ''it'' a lot in your posts. I'm wondering if you've read anything about Gurdjieff's teachings? Have you read In Search of the Miraculous? I'm getting the impression you're throwing terms around not really understanding what they mean, though I could be wrong. For example: ''I have noticed that observing "it" rather than "I" or wondering what am "I" thinking has helped.'' sounds very vague and I have no idea what you mean by that.

The relationship I'm in now really does help with the mirroring and the bringing my "bad" to the surface and talking about it/ realising my emotions towards them etc.

You didn't really address what I was saying though. I find it a bit worrisome that instead of addressing whether your past behavior bothers you at all, i.e. that you could potentially hurt your current partner very much, you talk about how the relationship has been good to you. In other words, it's all about you.

 

[Sol Logos]

The relationship I'm in now really does help with the mirroring and the bringing my "bad" to the surface and talking about it/ realising my emotions towards them etc.

Sounds like your in a new relationship? You mentioned earlier that you've moved from one relationship to another to avoid what you'd feel if you are on your own, so would seem that your relationships "work" only when there's a co-dependence? What I mean for example is a relationship where there's a man who feels insecure without a woman being needy of him and when there's a woman feeling alone / unloved without a man "fixing" her problems (emotional / financial / physical etc.). That's a co-dependant relationship basically formed to feed both partner's addictions.

As soon as one person in the relationship stops feeding the other's addictions, say the man stops trying to solve all the woman's personal problems, realising say that doing so is in real terms only increasing her dependancy, and so contributing to retarding her own personal growth, she would begin to feel unloved. When she feels unloved she would be on the look out for another relationship with a man who would "love" her or in other words feed her addictions. I'm not sure if that's the case here, but for me reading between the lines there does seem to be a co-dependence quality to your relationships that when not met, as in the example I gave, its easy to see how that leads to hurting others. I think its generally always valuable to distinguish between what is love and what is more often than not just having our addictions met from a partner the way we need and that we call "love" but is actually just the opposite.

 

[lilyalic]

I have noticed you use the terms I's, ''I'', ''it'' a lot in your posts. I'm wondering if you've read anything about Gurdjieff's teachings? Have you read In Search of the Miraculous? I'm getting the impression you're throwing terms around not really understanding what they mean, though I could be wrong. For example: ''I have noticed that observing "it" rather than "I" or wondering what am "I" thinking has helped.'' sounds very vague and I have no idea what you mean by that.

Yes I've read about Gurdjijeff's teachings, I have not read In Search of the Miraculous.. I may purchase that book next. It terms of observing "it" I meant specifically trying to observe my programmes etc, but from the thread "Self-observation, inner talking and Work instrument"
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22.0.html
it talks about thinking of thoughts as "it's" (for example trying to NOT think "my" or "I") I'm trying to observe from an outsider perspective, like I wouldn't know myself. This is proving very hard as my programmes and mechanics are well and truly wanting to stay put!

You didn't really address what I was saying though. I find it a bit worrisome that instead of addressing whether your past behavior bothers you at all, i.e. that you could potentially hurt your current partner very much, you talk about how the relationship has been good to you. In other words, it's all about you.

Yes my past behaviour puts pre-conceptions in my head of hurting others, and I very much regret what I did to others... I can only use that now to recognise early signs or symptoms in 'ruining' another relationship. That's true, I'm very much attempting to not 'feed' from my partner, although it seems I already am, there's a part of me that completely appreciates him for the way he is, and doesn't want to change or 'use/feed' from him for my emotional needs - so I'm working on making that the sole 'part of me'. Still, that seems completely all about me ha! I've been trying to keep emotions to myself, and work things out myself, without feeling the need to tell him..

Sounds like your in a new relationship? You mentioned earlier that you've moved from one relationship to another to avoid what you'd feel if you are on your own, so would seem that your relationships "work" only when there's a co-dependence? What I mean for example is a relationship where there's a man who feels insecure without a woman being needy of him and when there's a woman feeling alone / unloved without a man "fixing" her problems (emotional / financial / physical etc.). That's a co-dependant relationship basically formed to feed both partner's addictions.

See, the co-dependence I would have agreed with a few years ago with my 'needy' boyfriends. But now, as naive as this seems, there's a balance of emotional needs met, but of course there's some form of co-dependency. To fix this, wouldn't it be just to continue working on myself?

 

[shijing]

That's true, I'm very much attempting to not 'feed' from my partner, although it seems I already am, there's a part of me that completely appreciates him for the way he is, and doesn't want to change or 'use/feed' from him for my emotional needs - so I'm working on making that the sole 'part of me'. Still, that seems completely all about me ha! I've been trying to keep emotions to myself, and work things out myself, without feeling the need to tell him..

See, the co-dependence I would have agreed with a few years ago with my 'needy' boyfriends. But now, as naive as this seems, there's a balance of emotional needs met, but of course there's some form of co-dependency. To fix this, wouldn't it be just to continue working on myself?

When you're just beginning to work on yourself -- if you're really sincere about it -- sometimes the best thing to do is to create a space where you can focus on reading, learning, and applying that knowledge. You can try to do that in a relationship, and they provide their own opportunities for that work. But perhaps you should give some thought to whether it might be good to eventually just take an indefinite break from relationships in general to give yourself that space. This may be true particularly if you find the feeding cycle difficult to break, since feeding is essentially one kind of addiction, and to treat an addiction we sometimes need to remove that to which we're addicted in order to have any hope of seeing our situation more objectively. In fact, you may find that once you've begun to really Work on yourself, it will be a long time before you feel you're ready to begin another one. But that's not a big deal, really -- you're young, and there's plenty of time for that later.

In the meantime, it would be a really good idea to start on In Search of the Miraculous, since so many fundamental Work concepts are discussed there.