online etymological dictionaries

shijing

The Living Force
Just wanted to make a quick note of a collection of online etymological dictionaries of various Indo-European languages I recently came across here:

http://www.indo-european.nl/index2.html

Some of them are still in progress, but I'm hoping they might be useful for those of you out there who enjoy tracking down word roots, making inter-language connections, etc.
 
Shijing said:
Some of them are still in progress, but I'm hoping they might be useful for those of you out there who enjoy tracking down word roots, making inter-language connections, etc.

Thanks Shijing. Great resource. :)
 
Shijing said:
I'm hoping they might be useful for those of you out there who enjoy tracking down word roots, making inter-language connections, etc.

Thanks, Shijing.

Just to add to the above, and for anyone who might be interested, I use this etymological website for Chinese words.

_http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%A9%AC&submitButton1=Etymology
 
Shijing said:
Just wanted to make a quick note of a collection of online etymological dictionaries of various Indo-European languages I recently came across here:

http://www.indo-european.nl/index2.html

Some of them are still in progress, but I'm hoping they might be useful for those of you out there who enjoy tracking down word roots, making inter-language connections, etc.

*squeel* :D

Thanks Shijing....Webster has had its limitations. This site should be fun to check out; I'm one of those who enjoy word root hunting.
 
Novelis said:
Just to add to the above, and for anyone who might be interested, I use this etymological website for Chinese words.

_http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%A9%AC&submitButton1=Etymology

This looks pretty neat -- thanks for posting it, Novelis. I'm going to have to play around with it!
 
For your (Or anybody's) interest, here is something I found quite fascinating:

The word for comet in Chinese is 彗星, it's weird that the word 彗 also means broom...

here is the link:

-http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%BD%97&submitButton1=Etymology

I thought about posting this a few times before, but this just clenched it for me:

From the article "Witches, Comets and Planetary Cataclysms" by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

"Perhaps the image of the witch flying on her broom across the face of the full moon was actually a corrupted ancient symbol of a comet with a tail personified as woman?"

I mean, if this is a coincidence, then it sure is an unbelievable one (OSIT)!

Also, if one adds the radical of "heart", meaning consciousness, to the bottom of the character for broom/comet, the new character means... Wisdom:

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E6%85%A7&submitButton1=Etymology

Cool, huh?
 
Thanks for that, Shijing.

There’s also this database of etymologies for a whole range of language families.

It’s been compiled by Russian scholars, and covers such groupings as: Nostratic, Afroasiatic, Sino-Caucasian, Austric and Macro-Khoisan. Each of these databases is then broken down to smaller databases. For example, under Afroasiatic you can select to check specific etymologies for Semitic, Berber, Egyptian, and so on. And then within Semitic you can conduct a “New query” and search for specific words in Akkadian, Eblaitic, Amorite, and so on.

It’s by no means complete, and looks like an ongoing project, but there’s a lot of interesting stuff. Although, having said that, there is a shortcoming with regard to special characters: e.g. mataqu, the Akkadian for “to be sweet”, would have to be entered into the search box with a macron over the second “a” in order for it to show up in the search results. Though if you then change the “Query method” from “Match substring” to “Like beginning”, it’ll show up fine. So it’s something to play around with in order to get familiarised with its idiosyncrasies.
 
Novelis said:
Cool, huh?

Very! I ran across this word this summer, but hadn't thought to connect it to Laura's article, so thanks for doing that here. It reconstructs (according to Schuessler) to Old Chinese *s-wis, and he notes "'Broom' > 'comet'".

Ottershrew said:
There’s also this database of etymologies for a whole range of language families.

Thanks Ottershrew -- actually, this is the site that I take my macrofamily maps from, like the ones here. It's super-awesome, and it's becoming better now that they've linked up with the Santa Fe Institute. You're right about the shortcomings -- the main code, called StarLing (developed originally by Sergei Starostin), is one that has been adopted for the majority of language databases at present, and they share all of the pros and cons.

To tie these together, if you search the Chinese part of the above database for "comet", it turns up , which Starostin reconstructs as *b(h)ǝǝt. I think that is similar to some of the onomatopoeic forms that McCafferty & Baillie list in The Celtic Gods, but can't quite remember, and I had to return the book so I can't look it up.
 
Thanks for the links!

Novelis said:
From the article "Witches, Comets and Planetary Cataclysms" by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

"Perhaps the image of the witch flying on her broom across the face of the full moon was actually a corrupted ancient symbol of a comet with a tail personified as woman?"

I mean, if this is a coincidence, then it sure is an unbelievable one (OSIT)!

Very interesting! Can you also decompose this word?



As you know, it is the Chinese (not simplified) for "dragon", and comets have been associated with "dragons in the sky". I wonder if you can tell from the different parts of the character. The only one I recognize is "Yue" 月 (bottom right) = 'moon', 'month' and sometimes 'meat/flesh'.

Other interesting ones could be:
激變 (cataclysm)
and
瘟疫 (pestilence)
 
Shijing said:
Just wanted to make a quick note of a collection of online etymological dictionaries of various Indo-European languages I recently came across here:

http://www.indo-european.nl/index2.html

Some of them are still in progress, but I'm hoping they might be useful for those of you out there who enjoy tracking down word roots, making inter-language connections, etc.

Thanks. Etymology is one of my favorite reading topics.
 
Ailén said:
Can you also decompose this word?


Ailén said:
As you know, it is the Chinese (not simplified) for "dragon", and comets have been associated with "dragons in the sky". I wonder if you can tell from the different parts of the character. The only one I recognize is "Yue" 月 (bottom right) = 'moon', 'month' and sometimes 'meat/flesh'.

Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as one might think.

Firstly, the radical for "meat" and "moon" are distinctly different, the outer shape is the same, but the difference is in the two lines within that shape.

The radical for moon simply have two vertical lines, while the radical for meat have two diagonal lines, the bottom one slanting downwards, and the bottom line slanting upwards. Even some Chinese people think they are the same character because of their similarities!

However, they have quite different etymological roots:

Moon:

_http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E6%9C%88&submitButton1=Etymology

Meat:

_http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E8%82%89&submitButton1=Etymology

Now, here is the page for the Dragon character:

_http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%BE%8D&submitButton1=Etymology

If you look at the link, you would agree with me, perhaps, that the radical for "moon" isn't even present in the modern character as part of a composite ideogram that can be broken down.

If you look at the bronze characters, for instance, it's quite clear that it's a picture of a dragon. The head of the creature seems to resemble the character for moon, so, I think, over time, as the character changed, the radical for moon was used.

In other words, it looks to me like the radical for moon in the present character is supposed to be the head of the dragon, and not anything to do with the moon character itself.

Not all Chinese characters can be broken down in the way you prescribed, in fact, there are lots of different ways that characters have been created:

_http://www.living-chinese-symbols.com/how-chinese-characters-are-formed.html

Perhaps you thought that the character for dragon is a composite ideogram, like the word "wisdom" that I mentioned earlier, but it's more of an ideogram that evolved over time to look like the way it does.

Secondly, the Chinese dragon, as far as I can discern, isn't referring to something that was seen as such, but rather pointing towards a concept that has an alchemical significance more than anything else.

The oriental dragon's features are made up of five different animals. The talons of an eagle, the body of a snake, horns of a ram, scales of a fish and... Something else, different sources say different things, some say a horse is in there somewhere...

Anyway, as far as I can tell, since I've only read sources dating back to the Han dynasty, it's supposed to be a symbol for adapting to the ever changing dynamics of nature. The different animals represent how beings in nature adapt to the ever changing dynamics of the world, and if one can behold the sight of a dragon, then it's supposed to be a sign of being able to hold steadfast to the ever changing way of nature.

The dragon can swim in the deepest oceans (Unconsciousness) and fly in the highest of the heavens (consciousness) , which, OSIT, is a symbol for the goals of meditation (?)

Coupled with that, the dragon is most often depicted as chasing after a flaming pearl, which, I think is plain, refers to the philosopher's stone, the seed, or the golden child.

To summarise, I do not know if the original ideogram refers to "dragons in the sky" as it would appear from cometary bombardments, but, seeing as the Chinese dragon seems to only have positive connotations, and the dragon isn't even a reptilian creature in the strictest sense, I would say that the Western dragon and the Eastern dragon have completely different concepts behind them.

Further more, I might add that the Chinese unicorn, or the Qilin (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin), is more similar to the chimerical symbolism of the Chinese dragon, and, according to the book I'm reading by Carl Jung, "Psychology and Alchemy", both seem to have alchemical, or internal significances.
 
There's one other thing about "dragon" (龍) that's kind of interesting -- it's been hypothesized that it is cognate with both "(sound of) thunder" (隆) and "rainbow" (虹), and that the latter may be related to "red" (紅). The Old Chinese reconstructions are given below:

龍 *roŋ
隆 *ruŋ
虹 *goŋ < *gloŋ
紅 *goŋ < *gloŋ

Schuessler says that the etymology of "dragon" itself is unclear, but the connection to both "(sound of) thunder" and "rainbow", although not conclusive, could possibly point toward something cometary.

In Novelis's database, the following information is given for "dragon" and "rainbow":

龍 "A snake with a king (probably indicating a crown) on its head"
虹 "The ancient character is a bowed snake 虫 with two heads"

Looking this up on Wikipedia, one finds the following:

Hong or jiang (Chinese: 虹; literally "rainbow") is a two-headed dragon in Chinese mythology, comparable with rainbow serpent legends in diverse cultures and mythologies [...] [T]he oldest characters for "rainbow" in Shang dynasty oracle bone script were pictographs of an arched dragon or serpent with open-mouthed heads at both ends:

200px-%E8%99%B9-oracle.svg.png


The Shijing has the oldest known textual usages of hong 虹 and didong 蝃蝀, and both are bad omens [...] "Although many ancient cultures believed rainbows were good omens," Carr (1990:101) explains, "the Chinese saw them as meteorological disasters. Unlike the auspicious long 龍 dragon symbolizing forthcoming rain, the two-headed hong 虹 was inauspicious because it appeared after a rain shower." The Huainanzi (3, Schindler 1923:322) says both rainbows and comets were warnings from tian 天 "heaven; god". Several classic texts (e.g., Liu Xiang's Shuoyuan and Xinxu) use the phrase baihong guan ri 白虹貫日 "bright rainbow threads the sun". For example, it is a portent of assassination in the Zhanguoce (297, tr. Crump 1979:454) "a white halo pierced the sun."

The Chuci has more rainbow occurrences (8 虹,10 霓, and 5 蜺) than any other early text [...] Many rainbows occur in Chuci descriptions of shamanic "flights" through the skies, frequently in contexts with other dragons [...] [A] Chinese rainbow myth involves the creator Nüwa 女媧 repairing a crack in the sky caused by the water deity Gong Gong 共工 (cf. 虹). She supposedly created the first rainbow by melting stones of 5 or 7 different colors to patch the sky. Nüwa and her brother-consort Fuxi are represented as having the upper body of a human and the tail of a dragon or serpent.

So that starts to look more and more suspicious. See the Wikipedia article linked above for more details...
 
Thank you so much Shijing, quite interesting indeed.

You provided a few book titles that I would certainly like to read in Chinese, but with the English Pin Yin system it is hard for me to be sure which books you are referring to.

So, are the following correct?

Shijing (Shi1 Jing1) 詩經

(I've seen that quite a few times in bookshops, but I thought that it was just a collection of poems and had no idea of its antiquity, I'll be looking into that!)

ShouYuan (Shou1 Yuan4) 說苑

Xinxu (Xin1 Xu4) 新序

(I don't have any idea about the above two titles, but I'll be on the lookout from now on!)

Huainanzi (Huai2 Nan2 zi5) 淮南子

(I've got the Huainanzi (淮南子) already, fascinating stuff, but it's quite a big book...)

It's funny, I've seen your name so many times before, but it's only when I saw the Chinese characters did I realise what you were referring to. :-[
 
Thanks, Novelis and Shijing! That's very interesting.

"the Chinese saw them as meteorological disasters. Unlike the auspicious long 龍 dragon symbolizing forthcoming rain, the two-headed hong 虹 was inauspicious because it appeared after a rain shower."

Hmmm... Hard to know, but it is definitely an interesting possibility. I wouldn't be surprised it a lot of ancient characters contained in their meanings some mention to cataclysms. After all, even characters who seem to be mere pictograms, descriptions of an object, say, can be tricky IMO, because they are interpreted according to the reality we see now. It is extremely hard to know what reality they were depicting in ancient times.

I know nothing about this, though. I was asking out of pure curiosity. :)
 
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