Organic Portals: The Other Race

Ryan

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Ruth said:
So, do these 4D-based Lizzie created beings have souls? I am presuming the answer is no (if they exist at all) and if this is the case, does that make them OPs albeit 'souped up ones'? The point I was trying to make was that a 'souped up' human OP may be a rarity if there are so many Greys getting about and the description by the Cs may refer directly to Greys, not humans. Presuming they exist at all that is.
Here's a quote which might clarify:
Session 950902 said:
Q: (L) Well, if the Grays are cybergenetic probes of the Lizard Beings, and, in effect soulless, does this mean that some of the Lizard beings are also STO?
A: Well, first, no being that is given intelligence to think on its own is, in fact, comepletely soul-less. It does have some soul imprint. Or what could be loosely referred to as soul imprint. This may be a collection of psychic energies that are available in the general vicinity. And this is stretching somewhat so that you can understand the basic ideas, even though in reality it is all far more complex than that. But, in any case, there is really no such thing as being completely soul-less, whether it be a natural intelligence or an artificially constructed intelligence. And, one of the very most interesting things about that from your perspective, is that your technology on 3rd density, which we might add, has been aided somewhat by interactions with those that you might refer to as "aliens," is now reaching a level whereby the artificially created intelligences can, in fact, begin to develop, or attract some soul imprint energy. If you follow what we are saying. For example: your computers, which are now on the verge of reaching the level whereby they can think by themselves, will begin to develop faint soul imprint.
In the case of the OP, these "soul imprint energies" are possibly the same as the animalistic 2D "soul pools" that are described in some of the above posts in this thread. In the case of "Greys", I'd speculate that they would have more of an individuated consciousness by virtue of being 4D.
Ruth said:
Apart from the fact that this distinction isn't very clear and we don't have a lot of data on it, or we wouldn't be talking about it?
Seems pretty clear to me. Some are OPs. Some are not. At least, that is the hypothesis. If you are even going to speculate that OPs exist based on what the C's say, it doesn't make sense to then ignore their comments about a generalised 50/50 split in the population (unless you have data that suggests otherwise).
Ruth said:
So, you see somebody making a choice not to be something as a failure? Well, somebody might reasonably think that. I guess its all about free will. Or perhaps it is about making a value judgement. What it is 'good' to be, and what it is 'good' not to be, etc. And then chosing to be or not be something based on a value judgement. You're not going to think that making the opposite choice makes any sense.
Perhaps I was unclear. The hypothesis based on the C's comments, is that you either are an OP, or you are not. You don't get to choose to be one or not be one (at least at this level of reality). It's all well and good to say that we've got free will and have a choice in everything, but it doesn't seem that way to me. For instance, I didn't choose to be born male, and it seems I don't have much of a say in the matter if I were to wish differently (despite certain expensive "procedures" that may claim otherwise!). I guess you can say that there are certain intrinsic qualities we are born with (genetics, physical location, parental situation etc) and things develop mechanically from there, except in the case of Adamic-type man who has the inner potential to manifest certain other intrinsic qualities that OPs don't have, by dint of their being OPs. To make a physical analogy, does a dog have the choice to be able to grow a beak?

Ruth said:
Do you have any speculation on how 4D STS would go about 'harvesting' Rumsfeld or Cheney? I would like to know what you think this would entail. What precisely are they 'harvesting' and how would they go about it?
I'm not sure. I think 4D STS graduation is likely connected to a sort of "dark esotericism" (what we might colloquially call "black magic"), but I don't know the specifics. The Ra material has more information on the "harvest".

Ruth said:
Ooh, and one more thing... as you can see I simply can't get the hang of what 'codes' to use for getting the quotations right. Is there a simple instruction on this and one that I don't need to be extra qualified to get?
When you reply to posts, you should see a hyperlink labelled "BBCode" (also "img tag" and "Smilies"). Clicking these will open up a pop up window with an explanation of how to do quotes and links etc.
 
D

Darren

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I wonder if perhaps psychopaths are refered to as "failures" because of their inability to reproduce the higher centers in effect, seeing as this ability was originally the positive function of an OP in an STO environment.
This inability to "reflect" would render the psychopath without a disguise, if you like, in the STS environment, leaving only basic predatorial instincts to operate with on the 3D level.
On a graph of Organic Portal soul development, this would put psychopathy at one end with OP's who have formed some sort of individualised soul imprint at the other.
So, by virtue of an STS environment the psychopath and 4D STS candiate, although at opposite ends of the spectrum in one sense, would be essentially similiar in their "qualities".
Assuming any of this is correct, the question might then be, what causes this "failure" and if and how does this effect the way in which 4D can work through them?
Just some thoughts.
 
G

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hkoehli said:
I thought the term "portal" was used to refer to both their being a "bridge" between 2D and 3D, AND being "open" to 4D control. They are the portal through which Adamic soul-energy is directed towards 4D; they're a vector of attack (4D to 3D), vector of drainage (3D to 4D).
So then I would gather the existential position of OP's at the 2D/3D boundary layer (if one can identify such a thing). This would characterize their essential nature. The fact that they are "open" to 4D control seems to be another matter altogether, probably involving a taking advantage of the lack of a coherent individualized soul. It would be like training dogs to be killers.

Darren said:
Assuming any of this is correct, the question might then be, what causes this "failure" and if and how does this effect the way in which 4D can work through them?
The answer may be related to my comment above. That is to say, the essential nature of OP's is tampered by 4D manipulators, and that tampering can generate conflicts in the OP that cause psychotic breaks. As stated in Session 950902:

no being that is given intelligence to think on its own is, in fact, comepletely soul-less. It does have some soul imprint. Or what could be loosely referred to as soul imprint. This may be a collection of psychic energies that are available in the general vicinity.
It would seem that all 4D manipulation is an invasion of sorts, and that any being with either soul-pool access or a soul imprint would have that pitted against the invader. Even animals have soul-pools (although these are species-wide), and there are many animals that do not endure captivity and cannot be trained, while others endure more punishment in order for training to take effect, by harsh "masters".

From my experience with psychopaths, most of them are tormented individuals. They are not blind "terminators", but mad with some internal conflict.

Ryan said:
The hypothesis based on the C's comments, is that you either are an OP, or you are not. You don't get to choose to be one or not be one (at least at this level of reality). It's all well and good to say that we've got free will and have a choice in everything, but it doesn't seem that way to me.
Apparently then, according to the C's, the transition between OP's and "individually ensouled" is not continuous, meaning there is a distinct boundary line somewhere, represented by a discontinuity in the graph, such as in a thermodynamic phase transition. Yet free will does not seem an absolute to me. In some things we are free and in others we are not. Any choice is based on conditions surrounding that choice, and the nature of the one choosing. As I see it freedom is both a manner of degree and type.

Soul coherence also seems to be a manner of degree and type (individualized, collective and/or imprinted). To place an animal in the position and context of making choices available to humans would send it into reeling chaos, which is how the animal would probably view human freedom. Something similar would probably occur with OP's, who need their laws, religions and customs to have a sense of stability in the midst of sharing the planet with humans who view the concept of freedom in a totally different manner, i.e. as something determined from within.

Indeed the individual dog may not be able to choose to be born with a beak, but if the soul-pool or species mind determines that beaks are good for the species, then at some point dogs will have beaks. On the other hand I have heard OP's claim that empathy and compassion detracts from freedom, that it is enslaving because it limits one's choices. Psychopaths, especially, enjoy using that argument to prove the "weakness" of feeling for others.

Human OP's are omnivorous, communal entities. Naturally left alone, they would prefer to live a non-violent existence, where they can work, play, breed and die in peace. They also seem to be vulnerable and easily manipulated. Responsibility seems to fall on the Adamic population here to deal with the 4D manipulation issue, given also that OP's are manipulated not for themselves, but to attack the Adamics. In fact, they seem to be caught in the middle.

On the other hand, a sufficiently traumatized "Adamic" can turn psychopathic, and I suspect that 4D has conducted varied experiments in this area. If the soul can be repressed perhaps something darker can take its place in a human whose genetic support promotes individuation. Thus, an OP psychotic would be a puppet, but a former Adamic would be Anti-christic, so to speak as induced psychosis may be more difficult to initiate, but also of a much higher focus if promoted. I have indeed read in the C material that usually OP's are not victims of abductions or other forms of attack.

It seems that the basic thing for Adamics to do is ground their higher center potential into the lower magnetic center to engender a sort of fusion. It stands to reason that 4D predators would want to inhibit this dynamic first and foremost (hence the psychopaths targeting emotions).

It seems to me that the practical thing is to understand OP's and know where they are coming from, as it were, because they are part of our natural environment and technically part of our species. The only tangible difference, from what I read in the C's material, is the empathy factor, or if and how much one feels for others. That is something between anyone and themselves, obviously. So for a true "Adamic" understanding OP's is one thing, and having an attitude of superiority to them such as that of Christians with respect to terrestrial nature, is quite another, and seems to contradict the natural empathic nature of the true Adamic.

If there is an "us vs. them" dynamic here, it is between 4D STS and Adamics, with OP's manipulated by the former, and often being cannon fodder. It seems Adamics are the true stewards of this planet and need to focus on that, even if they have to work around OP society. It is interesting that one thing that Mouravieff cautions against is the possibility of an Adamic/OP war (although personally I do not see Adamics even close to being organized even for something so perverted for so-called empathic, ensouled individuals). In my view, the ball is in the Adamic court.
 

Laura

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Well, looks like we might be getting somewhere with brainstorming about the subject.

hkoeli said:
Perhaps characteropaths are failed OP's and essential psychopaths are 4D harvestable?
Based on Lobaczewski's breakdown, I think it would be the exact reverse: The Characteropath can be a souled individual who has suffered some sort of trauma, be it physiological or psychological. See the following:

esoquest said:
On the other hand, a sufficiently traumatized "Adamic" can turn psychopathic, and I suspect that 4D has conducted varied experiments in this area.
Sounds about right. To which we might add:

Darren said:
So, by virtue of an STS environment the psychopath and 4D STS candidate, although at opposite ends of the spectrum in one sense, would be essentially similiar in their "qualities".
And then there was this most interesting idea:

Darren said:
I wonder if perhaps psychopaths are refered to as "failures" because of their inability to reproduce the higher centers in effect, seeing as this ability was originally the positive function of an OP in an STO environment.

This inability to "reflect" would render the psychopath without a disguise, if you like, in the STS environment, leaving only basic predatorial instincts to operate with on the 3D level.
One thing that I think ought to be studied a bit more is this:

esoquest said:
From my experience with psychopaths, most of them are tormented individuals. They are not blind "terminators", but mad with some internal conflict.
I'm not sure at all that this is true. I am pretty positive that the essential psychopath is NEVER, EVER tormented. To be "tormented," you have to have some kind of feelings, emotions.

The problem is that psychiatry has so completely messed up the taxon that there is no clarity. As Hare points out, there are certainly psychopaths that are anti-social, but not everyone with anti-social personality disorder is a psychopath.

Cleckley really dug deep on this issue, and Hare's work suggests much the same thing: the psychopath is the most untroubled, un-neurotic, "healthy-minded" individual on the planet. That is their chief attraction. Their ONLY problem is the fact that there are all those repellant people out there with emotions that keep getting in their way. And if they have learned early that some things are just not acceptable to the general population, they may chafe inside a bit that they cannot "come out of the closet" and declare themselves for the predators they are and glory in their own nature. But here I think they compensate quite easily because that very predatorial part of the nature also glories in putting one over on a victim. Stalking is what really entertains them and they know that there would be no more fun if they were out of the closet.

But that's just my observation.

For example, I don't think that people like Durand are the least bit tormented. I think that the deterioration of language is purely a mechanical thing that occurs when exposure is threatened. There is a certain pressure and heat in the brain just as there would be if a lion were sitting in wait to pounce on a gazelle, and suddenly a human hunter with a big gun starts stomping through the brush toward the lion. The lion is torn between his focus on dinner and this new threat, and different areas of the brain start firing at once and the chemicals might even act against each other, all kinds of neurons start firing, and there is no "driver" (frontal cortex) to take over in the case of conflicting "feeling states," which we remember have to do with feeding. The lion wants to feed, the hunter threatens his ability to do so. OSIT.

Also, since they can NEVER "look at themselves," there is no way they can be emotionally tormented by cognitive dissonance. Their only torment is related to hunger/feeding issues.

OSIT.
 

Ryan

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EsoQuest said:
Apparently then, according to the C's, the transition between OP's and "individually ensouled" is not continuous, meaning there is a distinct boundary line somewhere, represented by a discontinuity in the graph, such as in a thermodynamic phase transition.
Makes sense to me. The nonlinear/quantum jump/phase transition dynamic is observable in all kinds of scenarios IMO. Can't see why it couldn't apply here.

EsoQuest said:
Something similar would probably occur with OP's, who need their laws, religions and customs to have a sense of stability in the midst of sharing the planet with humans who view the concept of freedom in a totally different manner, i.e. as something determined from within.
Laura's writings in the "Mongols" series comes to mind here. If the tracing of the genetic groups via mDNA (the cultures of "circle people" and "pyramid people") is accurate, then perhaps OPs mostly correspond to the "pyramid" type, capable of only acknowledging that which is outside themselves. Their "connection to the divine" takes place through the Adamics, with the OPs "mirroring" the higher centers. Perhaps the "circle types" are the Adamics, who do not portray these characteristics due to their own inner connection, which we might describe as the sexual center/chakra.

This leads me to wonder about the origin of the individuated soul. Could the references to the "soul group fall from 7D" due to "desire based imbalance" refer to the attachment of the sexual center to a "ready prototype"? Perhaps, in the same way Adamic man is required to magnetize the higher centers via the magnetic center in order to prepare for 4D graduation, the process for OP graduation to full 3D is based on them magnetizing a sexual center? If these processes are cyclical, then perhaps a part of 7D makes the "desire based imbalance" to fall into 3D at the same point on the cycle that the soul pool(s) of the OPs have prepared them for "habitation" by the higher soul influences? This fusion of the higher and lower densities then enables the OP to gain a sexual center 7D connection and enter the incarnative cycle as an Adamic.

This is pure speculation though - I'm just brainstorming out loud here! :)

EsoQuest said:
Human OP's are omnivorous, communal entities. Naturally left alone, they would prefer to live a non-violent existence, where they can work, play, breed and die in peace. They also seem to be vulnerable and easily manipulated. Responsibility seems to fall on the Adamic population here to deal with the 4D manipulation issue, given also that OP's are manipulated not for themselves, but to attack the Adamics. In fact, they seem to be caught in the middle. [...]

It seems to me that the practical thing is to understand OP's and know where they are coming from, as it were, because they are part of our natural environment and technically part of our species. The only tangible difference, from what I read in the C's material, is the empathy factor, or if and how much one feels for others. That is something between anyone and themselves, obviously. So for a true "Adamic" understanding OP's is one thing, and having an attitude of superiority to them such as that of Christians with respect to terrestrial nature, is quite another, and seems to contradict the natural empathic nature of the true Adamic.

If there is an "us vs. them" dynamic here, it is between 4D STS and Adamics, with OP's manipulated by the former, and often being cannon fodder. It seems Adamics are the true stewards of this planet and need to focus on that, even if they have to work around OP society. It is interesting that one thing that Mouravieff cautions against is the possibility of an Adamic/OP war (although personally I do not see Adamics even close to being organized even for something so perverted for so-called empathic, ensouled individuals). In my view, the ball is in the Adamic court.
I agree with what you've written above. The responsibility is on Adamic man to act on behalf of the OP. Conscience and empathy likely have large roles to play here.

This is turning out to be a very interesting thread.
 
G

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Laura said:
I'm not sure at all that this is true. I am pretty positive that the essential psychopath is NEVER, EVER tormented. To be "tormented," you have to have some kind of feelings, emotions.
Somehow, I do not feel we are really in disagreement here. It seems that "torment" for a healthy individual is different than "torment" for the psychopath. Certainly, a psychopath becomes seriously disturbed when "scratched", and I do not think the "tantrum" is an act. When I was in the military (for a short time thankfully), I came to experience the "how to make a psychopath" program up close and personal.

I could see in myself the push by that program to create an inner discontiuity and push my sense of self to the other side of an abyss (the best way I can describe it). The military seemed to be trying to seed within me a source of insane rage that even today I do not associate with myself. It was like an attempt to condition me not to be "human". Indeed, you cannot be a "soldier" if you empathize with the "enemy", and the programmers have to set it up so the "enemy" is whoever they say it is.

The last vestige of the sense of the sancitity of self-sovereignty left me during this period, where I had to conclude that we all have our limits. I did not cross those limits, and had to endure a lot of derision, but I got a clear view of them and what lay beyond. For example, I realize many soldiers forced to kill are in torment grasping to the last vestige of their souls on one end and trying to "follow orders" for whatever reason on the other.

This is not the same torment as that of the psychopath, OP or not. Example: Greece was poor up until about three decades ago. There were class differences and a lot of resentment. Then the EU came along and created artificial prosperity. The ones below became the ones above (while the ones at the top were secure in their perches). One would expect that those who were formerly poor would be happy in their new found middle and upper middle class state.

But no...it was all of the sudden about on-upmanship and who was better then everyone. A comfortable life in a Mediterranian country was not good enough. It was all about domination for too many people. The same people marching in the streets for egalite and fraternite, from one day to the next turned into ruthless conservatives, like children playing musical chairs and refusing to budge once grabbing a seat.

What is funny is that when these same people immigrate to the US, they work relentlessly hard to one day return to the old country and show everyone what they have become. And while in the US they kiss the ground they walk upon and complain not one bit! The motive is the assertion of "I am better than you". If they cannot fulfill this urge they are in turmoil.

I would thing an OP's primary motive is security and stability, with a few frills and thrills thrown in of course. The psychopaths motive seems to be ME uber alles, while a healthy person is interested in self betterment because it makes most sense to them.

Anyway, in this part of the world the OP portion of the population as a rule considers compassion equivalent to stupidity. "Officially" ideals about god and ancestors and sacred custom are waved around like so many flags at a parade. In any private conversation, however, the words compassionate and stupid are often interchangeable in the vernacular.

What I was trying to convey is that psychopaths are not cold fish, and the true face of the psychopath is often a rictus of rage. I do believe they are without feeling, in the sense of emotional consciousness. There was an interesting discovery in neurology in recent years, regarding a set of neurons in the prefrontal cortex of the brain called "mirror neurons". It is said that these allow a person to experience what it is like to be in another's position.

Here is an interesting link on the subject:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=mirror%20neurons

As for Durand, I went through his site, and it was obvious to me he saw your direction as moving on his turf, and reacted like an agitated territorial animal, since his forum is empty and yours is full.

The ones without turmoil, IMO are the psychopaths or latent psychopaths who are well-adapted to their condition. To me that just means they haven't encountered their "scratch" limit yet. It does seem that they are dissociated from their emotions, but I have seen many a psychopath act against their well-layed out plans when scratched the wrong way. I believe they also do feel congnitive dissonance, but again perhaps we need to expand the terminology here. OP cognitive dissonance apparently occurs when their reality supports are threatened. Psychopaths, on the other hand, need to dominate and crush emotions (or rather true feeling), or they loose that quality of poise that makes them so seductive to the unsuspecting.

In a psychic sense, the sensitive among us have certainly felt the malignant energy of the unleashed psychopath, and its chaotic/entropic nature.

OP's, on the other hand, may be intelligent, but they utilize intelligence to organize and justify their deeper motives, and perhaps form a social structure that can maintain those motives fulfilled even in the context of social alliances (community), social compromizes (rules and law), a universal support (religion, "philosophy" and "science"), with constant ritualistic affirmations of the three former structures. And in my experience they really believe this is healthy normality.

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no historically recorded example of a society based on individualized soul principles that could serve as an example for modern times (I do not think Cathar society would work out in that fashion). If there was, it was most likely short-lived. Adamics seem to be able to adapt to OP society, but I do not think the reverse is true (evident with what happened to early Christianity).

My core point in all of this is that I agree that there is obviously mature and immature empathy (mature being coherent with reality), and we should not confuse empathy with wishful thinking.
On the other hand, we should not forget that we are all born and raised in OP traditions, and have been conditioned to a large extent by the OP way, which seems to define "official normality" in society. As such we are still struggling to extricate ourselves from that bias without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think is important is that we recognize the turmoil of ensouled individuals, in that being raised in the OP way is traumatic to their very sense of identity. The crossing not only from psychopathy to health, but from OP to "ensouled" modes of existence is certainly a great challenge.
 

Laura

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Yes, a great part of the difficulty is formulating (rediscovering?) the proper concepts and then finding the right language for them. It's kind of easier for me to deal with the OP concepts because there is the "soul pool" idea, and I'm a critter lover anyway, so it's just another category of caring about others.

Speaking of critters, I was reading Meloy's "The Psychopathic Mind" recently, and he he pretty much determined to create a Freudian type theory of psychopathy (does not succeed, but it's interesting reading through his attempts), and he writes in several places about the "reptilian" brain and the similarity of psychopaths to something reptilian. Let me see if I can find it...

Meloy said:
The other clinical observation that supports the hypothesis of a reptilian state among certain primitive psychopathic characters is the absence of perceived emotion in their eyes. Although this information is only intuitive and anecdotal, it is my experience in forensic treatment and custody settings to hear descriptions of certain patients' or inmates' eyes as cold, staring, harsh, empty, vacant, and absent of feeling. Reactions from staff to this perception of the psychopath's eyes have included, "I was frightened... he's very eerie; I felt as if he was staring right through me; when he looked at me the hair stood up on my neck."

This last comment is particularly telling since it captures the primitive, autonomic, and fearful response to a predator.

I have rarely heard such comments as these from the same experienced inpatient staff during highly arousing, threatening, and violent outbursts by other angry, combative patients. It is as if they sense the absence of a
capacity for emotional relatedness and empathy in the psychopathic individual, despite his lack of actual physical violence at the moment. ...
Darren suggests that the "failure of the OP" that might be at the root of psychopathy could be "their inability to reproduce the higher centers in effect, seeing as this ability was originally the positive function of an OP in an STO environment. This inability to "reflect" would render the psychopath without a disguise, if you like, in the STS environment, leaving only basic predatorial instincts to operate with on the 3D level."

So maybe this has something to do with genetic recombination that enhances or emphasizes ancient reptilian genetics; going back to before the split between reptiles and mammals?
 

Laura

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A bit more from Meloy on Psychopaths:

Meloy said:
The psychopath is an imposter. Shorn of any deep and abiding identifications with others, much of his subsequent behavior as an adult involves the conscious imitation and simulation of other people's thoughts, affects, and activities.

Unlike the person with narcissistic personality disorder who consciously feels, at times, a sense of being a fake, the psychopathic character has no awareness of this "false self" or the "as if" quality of his phenomenal experience. He does not merely play the role, observing the limits of his character, but lives the part.

... I am using the term imitation to describe the intentional, conscious, mimicking of another person's attitudes or behavior. ...

The psychopathic process may also be expressed by individuals whose simulations are so adept, whether they be cognitive, affective, or behavioral, that there is absolutely no suspicion whatsoever that pseudoidentifications may be occurring. This is especially difficult to assess in the socially engaging and intelligent psychopath. ... Any successful assessment of the nature and genuineness of identifications in these individuals must be largely dependent upon corroborative information from relatives, family, acquaintances, and other clinicians.
This last bit is a real kicker because our society has programmed us NOT to share information about others. It's called "gossiping" or "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all," or "that's PRIVATE communication," and so on.

But what do you do if you begin to suspect that you are being had? Or, better yet, how can people avoid being taken in by such smooth imitation?

Once I have the idea that I have been manipulated by a psychopath, all the rules change. All that secrecy stuff is discarded at once and I will put everything out in the open. If they control people by inducing them to keep their secrets, they aren't going to do it to me.

I think that gossip, spreading false information or talking about things that don't concern you, is very negative. But exchanging data and examinng our relationships and interactions with others is a crucial form of networking and protection.

Meloy said:
Case study:

T.D., a probationer, was a 16-year-old Caucasian male of superior intelligence. He was currently held in juvenile custody, but was allowed certain day trips with his probation officer to faciltate planning and placement upon his release.

On one such day trip the probation officer was amazed and pleased to find out that T.D. shared with her an interest in metaphysics. In fact, he displayed a remarkable intellectual command of the writings of Alfred North Whitehead, one of her most favorite philosopher- theologians. They conversed for several hours while riding in her autmobile, and subsequently the probation officer found herself much more closely identified with and sympathetic toward the plight of T.D. His intellect also became a personal strength that she noted with high regard in her written recommendation to the court.

Several weeks following these events, the probation officer learned from a colleague that T.D. had specifically inquired of others to find out her personal interests; and when he learned of her metaphysical avocation, he acquired numerous books which he read in preparation for his encounters with her. She later found out that he was asking questions about his new resident manager with ostensibly the same purpose in mind.

The probation officer consciously felt hurt and angry toward T.D., but also acknowledged to me her continuing admiration for his prowess and intellect!

T.D. imitated the probation officer's intellectual interests to pursue his own ends. There was no coincidental, reciprocal sense of emotional resonance and intelletual exchange between them. [He set the whole thing up to look coincidental.]

The well-honed, imitative, and mirroring aspects of T.D.'s behavior, in this case in the intellectual sphere, enhanced the probation officer's self-esteem. Her narcissistic admiration of her own metaphysical knowledge increased as she identified with, and consciously admired, the metaphysical understanding of T.D. (Projection/Reflection the C's kept repeating in the session above??? )

This case illustrates what I call malignant pseudoidentification. It is the process by which the psychopath consciously imitates or simulates a certain behavior to foster the victim's identification with him/her, thus increasing the victim's vulnerability to exploitation. ... The psychopath simulates the more subtle narcissistic characteristics (self-concepts) of the victim at an earlier, and unconscious, developmental level.

Mental health and legal professionals are most vulnerable to malignant pseudoidentification during work with a psychopath when the interaction includes matters relating to their competency, autonomy, or knowledge.

The goal of the psychopathic character is to increase the professional's general empathy for the psychopath's plight through pseudo-identification with the professional's narcissism. [self-concept]

The most common example of this is the psychopath who will complement the professional for his competency or knowledge. On a more subtle level, the psychopath will simulate affects and mannerisms of the victim, (mirroring and twinship). It is not unheard of for defense attorneys, enamored by the perceived helpfulness and competence of intelligent psychopathic clients, to find themselves considering ethical violations and perhaps, even illegal behavior, in the service of their defendants.

The victims "felt quality of perfection" [self-concept] is enhanced, and a strong empathic bond is developed with the psychopath through his/her imitation and simulation of the victim's own narcissistic investments. [ideas about the self]

The victim will be deluded into thinking that the psychopath shares this feeling of identification and bonding. In a legal setting the adversarial roles that attorneys play will foster ongoing processes of intrapsychic splitting so that "twinship alliances" between attorney and psychopathic defendant may render whole sectors of reality testing unavailable to the attorney-victim.

Individuals who deny their own narcissistic investments [do not have a good idea of their own self-concepts and that they ARE concepts] and consciously perceive themselves to be "helpers" endowed with a special amount of altruism are exceedingly vulnerable to the affective (emotional) simulation of the psychopath.

Empathy is fostered in the victim through the expression of quite visible affects... The presenation of tearfulness, sadness, longing, fear, remorse, and guilt, may induce in the "helper" a strong sense of compassion, while unconsciously enhancing the "helper's" narcissistic investment in self as the embodiment of goodness.

The psychopathic expresssion of such simulated affects may be quite compelling to the observer and difficult to distinguish from deeply cathected emotion.

It can usually be identified by two events, however:

First, the clinical observer who has analyzed his/her own narcissistic roots and is aware of his/her own potential for being "emotionally hooked," will be able to remain cool and unaffected by such emotional outpourings by the psychopath. As a result of this unaffected, cool, attitude, the Second event will occur: The psychopath will recompensate much too quickly following such an affective expression leaving the clinical observer with the impression that "the play has ended, the curtain has fallen," and the imposture, for the moment, has finished.

The psychopath, in brief, has no capacity for empathy, but has an exquisite capacity for simulation and imitation of others self-concepts (narcissistic investments).
Now, regarding Meloy's description of the two events above, being cool and unaffected because you have a good idea that you are being "played," leading to the rapid recompensation, I experienced this in a rather dramatic way a few years ago with a woman I believe to be an OP, but not a psychopath. The woman in question was crying bitterly, self-blaming, stuttering out things like "I'm such a failure... I can't be happy and I don't know why... and I make everybody around me unhappy... and I guess I should never have been born... I'm so miserable..." blah blah. You get the picture.

Because of a long, drawn out history to this immediate situation that involved about half a dozen other people who had been made miserable by her in unbelievably selfish and self-centered ways, and had then been played this way by her and had shared this information with me, I was quite aware that I was being played at this point. Long story, not needed. What happened because I decided I wasn't going to be manipulated by the tears and dramatics is what is interesting and what made me think that this woman very likely was an OP.

As the drama went on, I was unmoved and, at a couple of points, I simply responded: "That's BS." and a few other remarks that made it plain that crying wasn't cutting it with me, that the only thing I was interested in was finding a solution.

When the woman really grokked that I wasn't going to fall into this trap, she TURNED ON A DIME. Tears, sad face, misery, vanished in an INSTANT. I actually felt dizzy and disoriented by it, it was so fast! I also have to mention that, because I had been observing the individual for a period, as she played these games repeatedly with others, that while she was trying this maneuver on me, I felt only mild pity and revulsion.

Now, certainly, anyone observing this interaction from the outside would have thought that I was being cold and cruel, but I bet that if they had been paying close attention, they would have been exactly as disoriented by the "turning off" of the tears and the ending of the drama as I was. After all, I was only operating with theoretical knowledege. At the moment, I didn't see any other options because all the attempts to cure the individual by sympathy and empathy had been tried by numerous other people, some of them putting YEARS of work into the project. So far, nobody had tried just calling her on it to her face. So, I did it.

Damnedest thing I ever saw.
 
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This last comment is particularly telling since it captures the primitive, autonomic, and fearful response to a predator.
Obviously, not someone in turmoil. I guess I am associating turmoil with "inner discomfort" that is inevitable when things do not go the way the psychotic wants. It seems the psychotic always knows what they want, and certainly does not experience doubt about wanting it. "Turmoil" as I mention it is the discomfort the psychotic experiences when what they want falls out of reach.

In case you missed it I'll put the link on "mirror neurons" here as well.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?nod … %20neurons

Laura said:
So maybe this has something to do with genetic recombination that enhances or emphasizes ancient reptilian genetics; going back to before the split between reptiles and mammals?
In the brainstem or reptilian brain, there is a neuronal net called the reticular activating system (RAS). The RAS is the reality filter, and also regulates consciousness and tells us what is important in terms of survival or any desire, and what is not. All of the primitive reptilian areas are next to this. Ideally, anything from the higher brain descending into the body and anything from the body to the higher brain, including the mammal brain and emotive nexus, must pass through the filter.

If, for some reason, this is genetically reinforced at the expense of the rest of the central nerveous system, and dominates it, it also dominates what reality the lower body and the higher brain experience, as it controls all sensory pathways, as well as neural feedback between brain and body.

It stands to reason that when acute survival issues are constantly an issue this area dominates. When the lower brain dominates it also controls the emotional centers, as well as the very understanding of what we call reality.

Whether a being is a "reptile" or reptile brain dominant, it would seem to amount to the same thing as far as personal identity and behaviour is concerned.
 
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Best look at the post before last (the 66th) for the link on mirror neurons, since it does not seem to paste well.
 
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Meloy said:
The well-honed, imitative, and mirroring aspects of T.D.'s behavior, in this case in the intellectual sphere, enhanced the probation officer's self-esteem. Her narcissistic admiration of her own metaphysical knowledge increased as she identified with, and consciously admired, the metaphysical understanding of T.D. (Projection/Reflection the C's kept repeating in the session above??? )

This case illustrates what I call malignant pseudoidentification. It is the process by which the psychopath consciously imitates or simulates a certain behavior to foster the victim's identification with him/her, thus increasing the victim's vulnerability to exploitation. ... The psychopath simulates the more subtle narcissistic characteristics (self-concepts) of the victim at an earlier, and unconscious, developmental level.
I have seen this too many times to count, and whenever I see it now, alarms always go off. It almost seems like a dissociation of the mirror neurons of the prefrontal cortex from the emotion centers.

At the same time, this is the dynamic that reveals Narcissistic weakness in the psychopath's victim. All of us have a need to share beliefs, but usually if we are alert, and our feeling centers are alert, this kind of thing is obvious unless we are completely inexperienced or an inner desire to be validated blinds us.

Empathy in this case can be a weapon against the psychopath instead of a weakness. Empathy senses emotions in others, and can also sense the lack of emotions in others (unpleasant as the feeling is to empaths).
 

Johnno

The Living Force
I've often associated the OP type with those who get their energy from people and the "souled" from those who gain their energy from their own energy reserves received from "great mother".

Note the introverted/extroverted split is about 25/75.

And there is also this

Q: (L) I would say that the chief thing they are saying is that the really good ones - you could never tell except by long observation. The one key we discovered from studying psychopaths was that their actions do not match their words. But what if that is a symptom of just being weak and having no will? (A) How can I know if I have a soul?

A: Do you ever hurt for another?

Q: (V) I think they are talking about empathy. These soulless humans simply don't care what happens to another person. If another person is in pain or misery, they don't know how to care.

A: The only pain they experience is "withdrawal" of "food" or comfort, or what they want. They are also masters of twisting perception of others so as to seem to be empathetic. But, in general, such actions are simply to retain control.
IMHO, plonk an OP in front of "Funniest Home Videos" and they'll be laughing their heads off as kiddies get their faces banged by rakes, the souled person will cringe and turn the TV off.

Perhaps it's a simple as asking, "Do you think the Three Stooges are funny or not?"

Johnno


http://entertainment.news.com.au/story/0,10221,17577120-22810,00.html

It'd sure be boring if everyone was the same. Still, it can be hard for introverts to get their message across in a world that's hyped up on extroversion, writes Kylie Carberry.

In the playground, children learn pretty quickly that extroverts have been dealt a darn good hand. They are the kids that are forever "out there" and in the thick of things, tagged friendly and fun loving. In the popularity stakes, they rate up there with ABBA.

On the other hand, introverts, who generally love quiet places and watching the world do its thing, can be typecast as withdrawn, socially awkward or snobbish.

There is research out there that supports these pole positions. In his book The Pursuit Of Happiness (Avon Books), social psychologist David G. Myers writes that happiness equates to possessing three traits: self-esteem, optimism, and extroversion.

And, in a 2002 study, Welsh University researchers concluded that extroverts were less likely to succumb to depression due to their concern for practical realities rather than inner thoughts and feelings.

Dr Marti Olsen Laney, psychoanalyst and author of The Introvert Advantage, How To Thrive In An Extrovert World (Workman Publishing), says extroverts do indeed get a lot of good press. "We place a high value on silver-tongued folks who appear confident and decisive. Introverts often exhibit the exact opposite of these 'in-charge' types we esteem so highly."

But Laney, herself an introvert, says society is geared this way, largely because extroverts are more populous. They outnumber introverts three to one.

Laney believes that the playing field of life needs to be evened out. "It's all right for introverts to stop trying to fit in. They need to appreciate their own shape."

love the skin you're in
Introverts need to be more aware of their talents, says Laney. "Introverts tend to have great powers of concentration, develop deep friendships and have strong people skills in small group or one-on-one situations."

They're also likely to be resilient, determined, good listeners, creative thinkers, and self-knowledgeable.

To understand the difference between introversion and extroversion think of the two at opposite ends of a continuum. Most people's personality type will lie somewhere on this continuum. Where we fall on that continuum predicts how we derive our life energy. People on the more introverted end focus inward to gain energy, and people on the more extroverted end focus outward.

Accordingly, the introvert's world is fuelled by ideas, impressions and emotions. They can be easily overstimulated by the outside world. The extrovert needs people, places and things to stay energised. If marooned on a deserted island, they'd be destined for bluesville.

However Laney says introverts are not self-absorbed loners. They do self-reflect often, but that allows them a deeper understanding of other human beings, too. Equating introversion to shyness is another mistake. Shyness is about avoiding and feeling discomfort in social situations due to anxiety and self-consciousness. It is not an energy issue like introversion.

Everyone possesses the ability to act as either introverted or extroverted but we are hard-wired for one temperament to dominate. "It's like using your left hand if you are right-handed, you can do it, but it is awkward and takes more energy and concentration," says Laney.

Scientific evidence of the physiological differences was shown by Dr Debra Johnson, a psychologist at the University of Iowa, in a 1999 study reported in the American Journal of Psychiatry. PET scans on people who had undertaken personality testing showed that introverts had an increased blood flow in the frontal lobes and other structures associated with recalling events, making plans and problem solving. Johnson said an increased blood flow indicates more internal stimulation and because extroverts don't have as much inner stimulation they seek it from outside sources.

social survival
When it comes to invitations, Laney advises introverts to be selective. "Choose which events you want to attend - it's okay to decline invitations," she says.

Professor Charmine Hartel, director of the Centre for Business Research at Deakin University, says taking time out for quiet reflection can help introverts re-energise in a social atmosphere.

So would it be possible for an introvert to cope with an extroverted partner? Well, this combo might even prove to be a counterbalance. Psychoanalyst Carl Jung developed theories about introversion and extroversion and thought that we are attracted to our opposite to help strengthen and complete what is missing. Laney says this is true of her marriage to an extroverted husband who pulls her out into the world to do things she has never done and she helps him to learn more about his internal self.

The introvert-introvert pairing can be peachy too, but they have to be careful not to spend every Saturday night curled up together with popcorn and their favourite dvd. Laney says it's worth the effort to stay connected to the world.

tongue-tied
In her study, Johnson also concluded that introverts and extroverts have very different thought pathways in their brains. The introvert's pathway was long and complex and the extrovert's short and less complicated. Laney says this can mean that when snappy repartee or thinking is necessary the introverts mind can become "vapour-locked". Because they use long-term memory, it takes longer to retrieve the words they're looking for.

"Make the most of the written word, as these use different pathways in the brain, which seems to flow fluently for many introverts," says Laney.

In relationships, she suggests leaving notes for loved ones to tell them how we're feeling. At work writing memos with our comments is an ideal mode when offering ideas.

"Making use of technology such as email can be effective, however people do need to be careful not to use this as a substitute for personal communication," says Hartel.

Introverts should always remember how many important attributes they bring to the party, including the potential to slow the world down a notch, says Laney. "Of course they'd probably just like to drop those qualities off at the party and then skedaddle home!"

are you an introvert or extrovert?

introverts
• enjoy time alone
• consider only deep relationships as friends
• feel drained after outside activities, even if they were fun
• are good listeners
• appear calm and self-contained
• think then speak or act

extroverts
• like to be in the thick of things
• relish variety
• know lots of people and consider lots of people friends
• enjoy chit-chatting, even to strangers
• feel renewed after activity
• speak or act then think or, think while speaking
 

Approaching Infinity

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Laura said:
hkoeli said:
Perhaps characteropaths are failed OP's and essential psychopaths are 4D harvestable?
Based on Lobaczewski's breakdown, I think it would be the exact reverse: The Characteropath can be a souled individual who has suffered some sort of trauma, be it physiological or psychological.
Yeah, that makes sense. However, it just adds more to the list of words we need:

essential psychopath = failed OP
characteropath ? = failed non-OP (if STO in nature)
characteropath ? = successful non-OP (if STS in nature)
characteropath ? = OP that falls under the ponerogenic process

Where would these last ones fit? Are they just "party-liners"? In other words, are they immune to the disease? I'll have to re-read PP to see if any of Lobaczewski's distinctions can fit these distinctions.
 
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Meloy said:
As a result of this unaffected, cool, attitude, the Second event will occur: The psychopath will recompensate much too quickly following such an affective expression leaving the clinical observer with the impression that "the play has ended, the curtain has fallen," and the imposture, for the moment, has finished.
Another quote from experience, on a growing list. I noticed also that there is a period when the psychopath tries to intuitively size up the victim, and if he/she lacks details or resources to get information, there is something like an inner library where the psychopath tries to match the victim's profile.

In fact, the way many psychopaths size people up, in my experience, strongly resembles the clinical manner in which criminal profilers think. There may be an intuition here, but it is based on accumulated observations the psychopage has already made.

I'm almost able to predict the image the psychopath associates with whatever they get from my behaviour, and have experimented with trying to lead the psychopath into predetermined impressions, so they end up trying to manipulate what amounts to a false image. It is not quite deception per se (I'm not a good actor unless its fun), just an allowance for the psychopath to form certain impressions (which I admit can sometimes be fun when you realize what you are dealing with). One might call this a form of "stalking" perhaps.

Many psychopaths, however, like playing these games. Many psychopaths do tend to view reality as a game in many ways, distinguishing winners and losers, "cheating" when they can, and crying foul when it suits them. The most exiting games are probably the ones stimulating the most primitive centers in the brain, the ones in the reptile portion, including "games" involving survival (shades of the Roman Arena).
 

anart

The Living Force
"Damnedest thing I ever saw"

Sounds like it - and, you're right, had she been a psychopath, she would have almost seemlessly moved into another manipulation once she realized that the tears weren't working. I think the discussion of whether or not a psychopath is ever tormented is an interesting one. It is my contention that they are never tormented, although they will swear on their last breath that they are. I have wondered if some part of them really believes that they are tormented, since they don't know what real torment is like. They have nothing to go on except their own dampened impulses and reactions, which they assume feel as strong or motivating as the feelings that other people have. They know that they can make others do what they want them to do by manipulating these 'emotions' they feel, and they probably feel quite superior for having more control over their own 'emotions' - all the while never realizing that what they experience are not emotions at all. I really don't believe that they ever experience real torment, sadness or love - but they really have no idea about that, they just know that they want something, so they do whatever is necessary to get it.
 
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