Position of the Sage and Interior Constation

[Beorn]

Hi all,
if this has been brought up before please someone send me to the right thread as I couldn't find anything on the position of the sage in the search.

For the last few weeks after having read Gnosis I, I have been practicing the position of the sage with the goal of practicing the interior constation exercises.

For those of you who have not read Gnosis or for just a refresher I'll put the passage here:

Interior constation is to be practices daily in its passive form, preferably in the morning, and as far as possible at the same time. The exercise consists of the following: after having remained in the posture of the Sage for the time necessary to feel the muscles relax and the rhythm of the body become normal and regular, we must constate passively everything that unfolds itself in front of the mental eye. This exercise requires training. It is possible that, at the start, we shall see nothing, or very little. By perservering, little by little we will discover a whole world rich in life and colours. Later on, this world will become the object of a work whose aim is to bring order to it and, finally, to master it or, in esoteric language, to overcome it. But before that we have to make it emerge totally from the wings of waking consciousness. This is achieved by calm and impartial passive constation. Impartiality is required above all, as man is generally surprised to discover certain emotional and instinctive movements within him, certain ideas which, during the normal state of waking sleep, will appear totally foreign to him. The seeker will progressively learn to explore his own moral content. He will constate that only a small part of this content is usually visible on the scene of his waking consciousness, the principal part being shut out somewhere in the wings of his soul. It is with stupefaction, and sometimes with fright, that he will discover coexistences within him that will appear to him impossible and absurd - a poet and a cynic, a hero and a coward. He will perceive that he is essentially an egoist, ready to justify himself, if necessary by the most fallacious processes of rationalization, any state of soul that he would judge contemptible or criminal in others.
Gnosis I - Mouravieff

Practicals of the Posture of the Sage:
I have been able to find equilibrium with the posture of the Sage only in part and not my whole body. I find it best with my legs tucked just under the seat. This seems to balance my upper body. If I sit further back in the seat and lift my head slightly my upper back and head is balanced but my legs are tense. If I sit forward my legs can relax but my mid back wants to push out. I either tense up or become off balance.

I can find a spot that feels pretty good but I realize I am not 100% relaxed and interior constation just brings a blank. Seeing as there is no teacher available to observe me doing these exercises does anyone have some practical advice on finding the correct posture.

Practicals of Interior Constation:
Drawing a blank while interior constation in the Sage position I tried to do it while lying down and palming. After a few minutes of nothing, a little voice said (I said to myself?) 'just look inside yourself', so I focused on myself and the centres.

Quite suddenly three faces jumped into my mind. The first was youthful, ageless, without blemish and seemed completely pure. His eyes were shut as if in sleep. The sight of someone so pure brought me to tears.
Next a middle aged African American with a wide smile and lastly and aged, half crazed almost blind man.

Is this what Mouravieff means when he says "It is with stupefaction, and sometimes with fright, that he will discover coexistences within him that will appear to him impossible and absurd - a poet and a cynic, a hero and a coward."?

I guess what i'm asking is, is this interior constating? Do the pictures represent me or some part of me or am I missing the point and interior constating is something else?

Thanks for any input.

Jeff.

 

[mada85]

I have been able to find equilibrium with the posture of the Sage only in part and not my whole body. I find it best with my legs tucked just under the seat.

My understanding is that the most important aspect of the posture of the sage is keeping the spine straight and the head upright. I have found a meditation stool to be very helpful for this purpose, as you can sit in what amounts to a kneeling posture, but the stool takes all the weight off the feet and lower legs.

Have a look here: _http://www.bluebanyan.co.uk/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=130 to see the sort of thing I mean.

 

[Beorn]

Hi mada,
I am now just focusing on the back and neck and find the legs will just relax by themselves given time. I do have a small stool I use which is the right height according to Mouravieff and seems to do the job for the moment.

Thanks,
Jeff.

 

[Jeremy F Kreuz]

I am currently reading Gnosis 1 and early on in the book, Mouravieff stresses the importance of the Posture of the Sage and exercises - practice it every day.

The personality depends on the physical body much more than we generally admit. A localized and somewhat severe pain is sufficient to relegate all our generous ideas and all our refined feelings to the background of consciousness. On the other hand, when some person is capable of mastering his pain and continues to carry out his work in cold blood, such an attitude is considered heroic, for such behaviour reveals an exceptional character.

The intimate dependence of the Personality on the physical body, in which it resides and functions, leads logically to the conclusion that one must act through the latter to discover it, study it, and finally act on it. That is why all mental6 exercises require physical training. The principle is general; its application nevertheless varies and depends on the method of the esoteric teaching. In the present essentially psychological method, physical training is reduced to the absolute minimum, but we cannot altogether do without it. We shall limit ourselves now to giving sufficient information — if followed — to enable us to resolve the first problem of physical training: to find the most suitable body posture for these mental exercises. Millennia of experience show that only a single posture meets this need. Leaving details aside, the posture must place the head, the neck and the spinal column in one single straight line—and this line must be
vertical. Except in certain special cases which will each require other precise instructions, this rule must be strictly observed whether we are standing or sitting. Before we begin the mental or psychological exercises, we must discover this posture and familiarize ourselves with it. For Westerners who exercise at home, the most practical way is to sit on a hard seat 25 to 35 centimetres high, legs crossed, preferably right over left, palms flat and facing downward on the knees. This is one of many variants of that posture traditionally called the posture of the sage. Here are some complementary indications: the muscles must be completely relaxed, the head high and the shoulders naturally pushed back, the waist curved in such a way that, viewed in profile, the spinal column would present a slight convexity directed forwards. The eyes can either be opened or closed; at the start it is preferable to leave them closed, because if they
are left open without special training, they tire very quickly and interfere with the exercise. We must strive to reach this posture daily and regularly. Regularity of training, and the choice of a fixed time to practise, are the necessary conditions. Tendencies accentuate themselves, says an esoteric law; and again: a rhythm increases results tenfold. Yet one must not proceed too quickly. That is why another traditional maxim says: 'make haste slowly'.

It has been discussed in the EE thread that the posture in which in EE is done is not of major importance - one can do it lying down or sitting as long as one is comfortable. My question around the posture of the Sage is that this exercises of the posture should be considered as something not related with the EE, and therefore can be done separately.Or does EE replaces the Posture of the Sage exercises. As later on in the exercises recommended by Mouravieff also breathing is added, I am a bit confused too which extent EE and Gnosis Work reinforce or interfere with each other.

 

[Jones]

I have been able to find equilibrium with the posture of the Sage only in part and not my whole body. I find it best with my legs tucked just under the seat. This seems to balance my upper body. If I sit further back in the seat and lift my head slightly my upper back and head is balanced but my legs are tense. If I sit forward my legs can relax but my mid back wants to push out. I either tense up or become off balance.

I can find a spot that feels pretty good but I realize I am not 100% relaxed and interior constation just brings a blank. Seeing as there is no teacher available to observe me doing these exercises does anyone have some practical advice on finding the correct posture.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff,

In regards to the bolded part above, I guess you will 'know it by it's fruit'.

Mouravieff says about the Posture of the Sage:

"The essential condition is that the head, neck and the vertebral column are kept in a straight vertical line." And "When, after repeated trials the correct posture is finally found and can be easily re-assumed, we will recognise this by the following sign: a sensation of relaxation and of rest which even sleep itself does not give"

 

[Beorn]

I am currently reading Gnosis 1 and early on in the book, Mouravieff stresses the importance of the Posture of the Sage and exercises - practice it every day.

It has been discussed in the EE thread that the posture in which in EE is done is not of major importance - one can do it lying down or sitting as long as one is comfortable. My question around the posture of the Sage is that this exercises of the posture should be considered as something not related with the EE, and therefore can be done separately.Or does EE replaces the Posture of the Sage exercises. As later on in the exercises recommended by Mouravieff also breathing is added, I am a bit confused too which extent EE and Gnosis Work reinforce or interfere with each other.

Actually I haven't tried the position of the Sage for a long time and now this threads come up again I might give it another go and see what happens. I think for many here EE has had a much more dramatic effect on their well being and is certainly much easier to do than trying for months to find the right posture. The EE breathing and meditation is recommended for most people here, to whatever degree they are able and ready to do it.

And that's not to say that it's a replacement for the Mouravieff exercises either. I think they're good for developing focus, discipline and observing yourself while your body tries valiantly to stop you doing the exercises. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they interfere with the EE, neither are they essential for the work. Maddame De Salzmann also has some exercises in "The Reality of Being" which I found easier to do than Mouravieff's exercises, particularly the meditation about asking yourself who/what you are. This seemed to take me to another place. I also started to feel the energy moving through my body a lot more with her exercises.

 

[Beorn]

I have been able to find equilibrium with the posture of the Sage only in part and not my whole body. I find it best with my legs tucked just under the seat. This seems to balance my upper body. If I sit further back in the seat and lift my head slightly my upper back and head is balanced but my legs are tense. If I sit forward my legs can relax but my mid back wants to push out. I either tense up or become off balance.

I can find a spot that feels pretty good but I realize I am not 100% relaxed and interior constation just brings a blank. Seeing as there is no teacher available to observe me doing these exercises does anyone have some practical advice on finding the correct posture.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff,

In regards to the bolded part above, I guess you will 'know it by it's fruit'.

Mouravieff says about the Posture of the Sage:

"The essential condition is that the head, neck and the vertebral column are kept in a straight vertical line." And "When, after repeated trials the correct posture is finally found and can be easily re-assumed, we will recognise this by the following sign: a sensation of relaxation and of rest which even sleep itself does not give"

Actually I've come to think that the Posture of the Sage is best done in a group where others can keep you motivated and give input. The temptation to cut corners is great when you are by yourself. I've started practicing Ashtanga Yoga which I've found really beneficial. One hour of Yoga is about equivalent to two hours of sleep and provides enough energy to get through the day even with a 5am start. Again, practicing at home by myself is just not the same as going to the Yoga Center where I can get input and the motivation to hold all the postures without cutting corners.

 

[obyvatel]

It has been discussed in the EE thread that the posture in which in EE is done is not of major importance - one can do it lying down or sitting as long as one is comfortable. My question around the posture of the Sage is that this exercises of the posture should be considered as something not related with the EE, and therefore can be done separately.Or does EE replaces the Posture of the Sage exercises. As later on in the exercises recommended by Mouravieff also breathing is added, I am a bit confused too which extent EE and Gnosis Work reinforce or interfere with each other.

I do not think that the posture of the sage, if practiced correctly, would interfere with EE. To hold ourselves upright takes energy. If we align our physical structure in a configuration that requires minimum energy to maintain, we would be truly relaxed as in using minimum muscular tensions and contractions. This frees up energy to be used for other purposes - including meditation. While sitting, the posture of the sage is such a position of minimum energy and maximum relaxation. But to get there, one would need to work against habitual postural defects which have become "comfortable". Now it may become counterproductive to struggle too much to achieve the perfect posture while meditating with EE - after all the primary goal is to access emotions through breathing patterns. So the general guideline to be comfortable and relaxed is sound.

I have been taking some Alexander classes for posture recently, and one thing that these classes has shown me is that I have no objective idea as what being relaxed or comfortable means. The posture in which I "feel" comfortable when shown to me in the form of a photograph makes me wince. FM Alexander would have called it "bad use of oneself". Just like it is said here that "you cannot think about the way you think with the way you think" - in the matter of posture, alignment and relaxation we cannot always rely on what feels comfortable to us as an objective gauge of how the physical body is aligned in 3D space. From the energetic standpoint, it makes sense to strive for proper alignment - but it should be done preferably with feedback from a teacher.

My 2cents

 

[Jeremy F Kreuz]

JP and Obyvatel,

thanks for the replies on my question. Helped me to put things in proper perspective

From the energetic standpoint, it makes sense to strive for proper alignment - but it should be done preferably with feedback from a teacher.

I´ll start looking for a class in my area where I can work on it.

 

[furryfrog]

Hi,

Well, six weeks ago I started meditating in the posture of the sage, at least once a day. For about 4 weeks before that I was just sitting there with my eyes closed. I mostly do 1.5 hours in the morning and 1.5 hours in the evening before going to bed. About 50% of the time I listen to music.

About 95% of the time I can get into the relaxation state, If I am holding onto something stressful, reaching the relaxation state is more difficult, and If I do get there I do not go as deep into it.

I would consider my normal posture fairly poor. I used to carry stress in my shoulders, and neck muscles. Certain buffers and programs keeping my head down, and a hobby in electronics hunched over a table finally did me in, and 2 years ago, off to the chiropractor I went. After about 8 chiropractor visits and practicing self observation, I am back on track.

I practice the posture of the sage in 3 different positions. I have bad knees so need to sit above them. Mostly I sit on a pillow while seated on the sofa, with a bit of pressure on the backrest. I also Put an 8 inch high toolbox against a wall to sit on, then put my tail bone, and head against the wall, and try to get my shoulders down and back to touch the wall as well. The 3rd position is the one described in Knosis, no wall and no sofa, I just use the small toolbox, a pillow on the floor for my legs, and try to keep good posture. It is of course the most difficult for me but I am improving.

I have observed that good posture plays an important role in getting to the relaxation state quicker and deeper. Pipe breathing is very effective as well. My goal is eventually to just sit on the small toolbox with my legs crossed on the floor, when I gain more strength and endurance.

Sometimes, When in the relaxation state, on the inhale breath, My head seems to want to pull itself into position straight up, and when exhaling it wants to flop down. Not sure why that is. I am feeling much more relaxed, calm, and content throughout the day now. I do feel somewhat "high" after, especially in the first 2 weeks of starting this. For a couple weeks I was only sleeping 5 to 6 hours a night and feeling better than ever. For the last 2 weeks I have now been sleeping 8 hours , but do feel "off track". I have had some stress that I think has thrown me off from reaching a deeper relaxation state. I am not yet sure how my sleeping pattern fits into this yet. It also feels like I can "breath into my head" when focused on it and "breath into my upper chest area" not sure how else to explain it.

Has anyone had any success with their mental eye? How did you direct your focus, or lack thereof?

It is possible that, at the start, we shall see nothing, or very little. By persevering, little by little we will discover a whole world rich in life and colours.

Gnosis I - Mouravieff[/i]

I have seen some flashes and a faint tie-dye pattern a couple times, but that's it so far. I am still wearing a blindfold over my eyes. Would that make a difference?

Ben.