Question about abortion

[name]

Today and tomorrow is a time when many people go to cemetery to visit their dead, or otherwise remember them.


Has anybody on this forum and in whose family there has been an abortion, ever lit a light or otherwise given a thought to that child who never was?
And, has anybody ever seen that child in a dream or otherwise?


I have, and I haven't.

 

[Laura]

I have read in a few esoteric sources that the soul doesn't actually "seat" fully until between 6 and 9 years old. I would think that if there is any "connection" between a soul and a forming fetal body, it is basically in the curious-hover stage, looking on and observing the development of a potential "vehicle" and an abortion is not "killing a human being" in the sense of extinguishing a soul.

Obviously, abortion is not an optimal solution, a better one is to not get pregnant if you are not ready to and the conditions are not best for the incoming (forget the narcissistic needs of potential parents), but that is not the way our backward society works. Giving birth to a baby is not a "miracle" in any spiritual sense, any mammal on the planet can do it and nobody raves about the "miracle" of a litter of pigs. There really isn't that much difference in terms of producing a human genetic body that is the result of recombinant DNA.

Finally, human beings take greater care in ensuring the good breeding/health of their livestock than they do in considering producing their own young which, in a very real sense, actually degrades the act of giving birth to less than the "miracle" of a litter of Berkshires, say. How many people actually consider the genetic history of their mates both in terms of possible physical problems and mental problems? A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.

 

[Gertrudes]

I have read in a few esoteric sources that the soul doesn't actually "seat" fully until between 6 and 9 years old.

That's interesting, I kept having some experiences until about that age, where I would suddenly "wake up" (for the lack of a better expression) and realize, much to my surprise, that I was in a child's body and that I was female. I remember looking at my tiny hands and skirt, recognizing that I had a new body and thinking, "Oh, I'm still this young...". Most of these memories are from when I was still a baby and a toddler, I remember being on a baby chair and suddenly "waking up" realizing that I was in a room full of other babies, and then becoming aware that I was also inhabiting a baby body. These experiences faded gradually lasting until I was about 8, and then stopped entirely.

A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.

So true. It is assumed as only natural for a couple to want to have a baby, the same way it is assumed as natural to lose yourself in a high of hormones. In a way it is, that's what keeping the species is about, but why would we have a thinking brain if we weren't to use it in coordination with our body's signals, and discern on which ones to act?
Wanting to have a baby is a very strong impulse for most people, adding to that our culture simply doesn't question that, you get together with someone and you simply reproduce, that's how life goes on....or is it? So not only are we strongly led by our urges and instinctive impulses, we have never learned to actually question them and whether following those particular wants will be in any way beneficial because that's not part of our cultural awareness. These two factors are strong enough to prevent a person from beginning to even consider whether, despite all material conditions being met, it is actually a good idea to have a baby, osit.

 

[lwu02eb]

We must look at the evidence of the destruction that mindless human breeding has caused. I have had an abortion because I fell pregnant despite precautions. My partner and I had already decided when we met that we would not bring a child into this world, because a) we have a lot of work to do on ourselves and b) we were exposed early on to the misery of modern "life". Even though I feel sad sometimes, I most certainly do not regret this decision. If anything, my choice has been bolstered by my life experiences since then.

It isn't even that having children mindlessly is encouraged, it is that making a conscious choice to refrain is strongly discouraged. I have been called all sorts of things and had all sorts of very rude assumptions thrown at me because of my choice. And yet, it should be very obvious to anyone what the consequences are of this type of mechanical behaviour.

 

[lwu02eb]

Having thought about this a little more it also seems to me that it would be much more useful to light a candle or spare a though for all the tens of millions, if not billions, of children worldwide who are either starving, mentally or physically diseased or disabled, traumatised or abused and degraded by their families and the world at large. I'm sure this process would include self-reflection for many on this forum. There are so many, and have been so many suffering children, that it defies comprehension and yet nothing changes. Humanity continues on with the same mechanic behaviour.

 

[Laura]

Having thought about this a little more it also seems to me that it would be much more useful to light a candle or spare a though for all the tens of millions, if not billions, of children worldwide who are either starving, mentally or physically diseased or disabled, traumatised or abused and degraded by their families and the world at large. I'm sure this process would include self-reflection for many on this forum. There are so many, and have been so many suffering children, that it defies comprehension and yet nothing changes. Humanity continues on with the same mechanic behaviour.

Amen!

 

[SeekinTruth]

Having thought about this a little more it also seems to me that it would be much more useful to light a candle or spare a though for all the tens of millions, if not billions, of children worldwide who are either starving, mentally or physically diseased or disabled, traumatised or abused and degraded by their families and the world at large. I'm sure this process would include self-reflection for many on this forum. There are so many, and have been so many suffering children, that it defies comprehension and yet nothing changes. Humanity continues on with the same mechanic behaviour.

Amen!

Yeah, couldn't have expressed it better.

 

[Hildegarda]

Has anybody on this forum and in whose family there has been an abortion, ever lit a light or otherwise given a thought to that child who never was?
And, has anybody ever seen that child in a dream or otherwise?

Yes, and yes, on both mine and my husband's part, regarding our parents.

I think it can be healing and respectful to allow yourself to grieve for the life hat never was, especially if you feel you have a strong connection to it. Some people may feel that way due to a heightened connection to their soul unit, or any traumatic personal life events; the reasons may not ever be clear. Yet, recapitulation and remembering may help understand not only one's own life and choices, but the larger condition of humanity, as have been suggested by others. I think I will do it today. Thank you for this topic.

 

[Maat]

I knew a young couple that had, let's say a spirit, in their house, some objects disappeared to be found in totally improbable places, those sorts of things and having saw a little figure from the corner of the eye, they concluded that it was a child like 6 years old. She was pregnant at this time and the fact is that she had an abortion 6 years back of which she felt very guilty. So she thought that it was her dead baby that was there because of her pregnancy. She talked to the spirit, explaining the story, her regrets, not to be jealous of the baby to come nor that she will harm it this time, all that sorts of things and asked the spirit to go where it belongs... and all the phenomena were gone.

The fact is that the phenomena occurred only when SHE was in the house, not if her husband was there alone so he wondered if it could have been an outside expression of her inner conflict. For her, it was certainly her dead baby.

Maybe it was also totally something else, who knows ?

 

[Gaby]

Having thought about this a little more it also seems to me that it would be much more useful to light a candle or spare a though for all the tens of millions, if not billions, of children worldwide who are either starving, mentally or physically diseased or disabled, traumatised or abused and degraded by their families and the world at large. I'm sure this process would include self-reflection for many on this forum. There are so many, and have been so many suffering children, that it defies comprehension and yet nothing changes. Humanity continues on with the same mechanic behaviour.

I lit up a candle. Your thoughts are very timing for this day, the 1st of November, and I hope every single person calling himself or herself part of humanity will come to realize this.

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints%27_Day

All Saints' Day...often shortened to All Saints, is a solemnity celebrated on 1 November...

All Saints' Day in Mexico, coincides with the first day of the Day of the Dead (Dia de los Muertos) celebration. Known as "Día de los Inocentes" (Day of the Innocents), it honours deceased children and infants.

 

[name]

Thanks everybody for your kindness and interest.


In my case with that ex-GF it was not planned as usual, and nobody ever thought much of anything in the way of consequences also as usual. After the initial shock I liked the idea of having a child despite our material situation - she was from outside and had come to study the language at Uni, I was working part-time besides Uni. It was her decision based on her assessment of our situation, so despite my opposition she had the saner arguments and I ended paying a months income to solve our problem despite my doubts. It has been following me on and off for many years. I've never spoken about it with anybody - as a man one is expected to "suck it up" (in Americanese) and be happy to have solved a problem (and everything else is sissy talk).

Having thought about this a little more it also seems to me that it would be much more useful to light a candle or spare a though for all the tens of millions, if not billions, of children worldwide who are either starving, mentally or physically diseased or disabled, traumatised or abused and degraded by their families and the world at large. I'm sure this process would include self-reflection for many on this forum. There are so many, and have been so many suffering children, that it defies comprehension and yet nothing changes. Humanity continues on with the same mechanic behaviour.

It strikes me as oddish that anybody would think about the usefulness of remembering ones dead or mourning them. For the record, back in 2003 when the shrub first attacked Iraq I placed a light before the Iraqi embassy because I suspected what would befall those people. It was never an issue of usefulness to me and in fact it was useless because it didn't help to save even one wounded, dead or displaced from what befell them. In case there might arise doubt I am in no way disqualifying your decision.

Session October 28, 1994
...
Q: (L) Bill Baldwin says abortions lead to serious spiritual attachment situations. Is this true?
A: Semi-accurate.
...

Does what Gertrudes said have anything to do with ones first lucid memory? If so, I know somebody who stated that he remembered the marriage ceremony of his parents from inside his mothers womb what embarrassed them endlessly. In my case, I was about 3 years and it was Christmas - I have some blurry memories form before on that same day and there was a point where it was like turning on the TV and everything became crisp and bathed in the beautiful evening light. Next, supposing that I understand this even remotely, how are spiritual attachments supposed to arise out of abortion if the soul "seats" itself a while after conception/birth? How would I find out if I have such an attachment?


[quote author=Laura]Obviously, abortion is not an optimal solution, a better one is to not get pregnant if you are not ready to and the conditions are not best for the incoming ...[/quote]
Certainly. Over the years I've heard of some cases around me, and from those few cases it looks like this happens lots in cases of first conception. When I went to that clinic with my then-GF most of the women waiting were actually teens, some of them really young. I've heard that first children are more vital than the ones following so this would mean that abortions are affecting the fitness of the species in the negative.


And now I'll speculate a bit. I've long time wondered about the native Americans producing almost no psychopathic offspring. Some time ago I read a piece (sorry, don't remember where) about an old shaman lamenting that when his people were few they (the shamans) knew them all and could take care about them, but when the people became more they eventually lost the view over some and then the people started becoming "corrupt" or something to that effect. Many animal species apparently know to identify and either kill or abandon their weaklings (or they fall prey to predators or the elements) so it is a wonder why humans don't know that (apparently). A relevant and important concept which comes from the general culture of American natives is the "Kunlangeta" (look it up) what hints to those Eskimos being aware enough of the phenomenon to give it a name, what is not really the case in general culture in western society. If we combine all these factoids it should be possible to suspect that the natives - either their shamans or councils of elder women - knew to identify the deviants and rigorously culled them before they became a problem, and that would explain why there are to this day few psychopaths coming from those people. This would have affected the fitness of the species (or group) in the positive. This kind of knowledge probably has been lost from other cultures, perhaps it survives among the few remaining natives.

 

[Beau]

Since the discussion had diverged greatly from the original thread title, the posts referencing giving candy to children were split and put into their own thread here.

 

[name]

Thank you Heimdallr. that was urgently needed :)
But my second posting should be here and not there :(

 

[Beau]

Sorry about that, it's here now.

 

[lwu02eb]

I have pasted my response to Name below as it was moved to the Halloween thread but does not relate:

The work, in my understanding, is precisely about usefulness or productiveness of thought, and more importantly the usefulness of the action that should follow.

I will share the results of my own deep self-reflection as someone who has had an abortion.

Firstly, it occurred to me that it is absurd to mourn something that never was when there are quadrillions of real, living problems that urgently require my attention.

Secondly, I realised I had been indulging myself under the pretext of mourning what wasn't. I was self-absorbed in emotions that related to the decision and the context in which it was made i.e. I felt wronged, like a victim and regretted the decision. This was neither useful nor externally considerate. Of course, I don't know if any of this applies to you but they are some things you might want to consider.

Had all the children that have been aborted been born, that would also have affected the fitness of the species in the negative, as well as every other species on a planet burgeoning under the weight of 7 billion humans, more than half of which live in constant strife and misery.