We are "there" the same way a dog is in 3 D. How much does a dog know about the life of a man? How many concepts of human suffering (emotional, mental) can a dog grasp?
GroupConduit said:Presumably, once one has learned everything there is to know, and has completely dispensed with "lessons". The question is, why would you assume that lessons and learning would no longer be necessary at the 4th-density STO level?
I didnt asume there wouldnt be any need for lessons or learning, I simply said the concept suffering would not be viewed the same as it is in 3rd density as the knowledge and awareness acquired in 4th density would change the perspective we currently hold "reminds me of the story of joan of Ark how she experienced her suffering as pleasure as burned at the stake".
Sure, the concept of suffering might not be the same. A dog has a basic understanding of physical suffering WHILE he is suffering. He will even have a memory of it if it is bad as Pavlov's experiments show. Dog's even have a certain level of emotional suffering related to need. My dogs need affection and they suffer if they don't get attention. All this suggests is that some 2 D creatures are moving in the direction of experiencing emotional suffering which is something that humans begin to experience in a wide variety of ways as humans. Humans still experience the kinds of suffering that dogs experience, but more is added to it. But, humans also begin to perceive suffering in different ways, to combine learning from the frontal cortex to the reactions of the more primitive parts of the brain. In this way, they can experience "ecstasy" while suffering. In a sense, it is like being two people in the same body: the one that is suffering and another self. And that is available to even ordinary people in many cases. If, at moments of great shock/stress, a person simply connects with this higher part of the self (even having not "worked" on the self), they, too, can have this experience.
The individual who has become fully conscious experiences still an added type of suffering: conscious and intentional suffering. At the same time, they also are capable of experiencing other higher emotions of joy and ecstasy that are not related to suffering. This would be an individual who is getting close to the "border" between 3D and 4D the same way a dog that is very close to its owner is getting ready to graduate to 3D.
But that dog getting ready to graduate still has no concepts of being human, only vague inklings. And the primitive human type has no concepts of the emotional pain and suffering of a higher type of man though certainly, he can translate physical suffering to an ecstatic experience. Gurdjieff actually gives an example of this type of suffering:
from ISOTM said:"But it is necessary to understand that man's being, both in life and after death, if it does exist after death, may be very different in quality. The 'man-machine' with whom everything depends upon external influences, with whom everything happens, who is now one, the next moment another, and the next moment a third, has no future of any kind; he is buried and that is all. Dust returns to dust. This applies to him.
"In order to be able to speak of any kind of future life there must be a certain crystallization, a certain fusion of man's inner qualities, a certain independence of external influences. If there is anything in a man able to resist external influences, then this very thing itself may also be able to resist the death of the physical body.
"But think for yourselves what there is to withstand physical death in a man who faints or forgets everything when he cuts his finger? If there is anything in a man, it may survive; if there is nothing, then there is nothing to survive. But even if something survives, its future can be very varied. In certain cases of fuller crystallization what people call 'reincarnation' may be possible after death, and, in other cases, what people call 'existence on the other side.' In both cases it is the continuation of life in the 'astral body,' or with the help of the 'astral body.' You know what the expression 'astral body' means. But the systems with which you are acquainted and which use this expression state that all men have an 'astral body.' This is quite wrong.
"What may be called the 'astral body' is obtained by means of fusion, that is, by means of terribly hard inner work and struggle. Man is not born with it. And only very few men acquire an 'astral body.' If it is formed it may continue to live after the death of the physical body, and it may be born again in another physical body. This is 'reincarnation.' If it is not re-born, then, in the course of time, it also dies; it is not immortal but it can live long after the death of the physical body.
"Fusion, inner unity, is obtained by means of 'friction,' by the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in man. If a man lives without inner struggle, if everything happens in him without opposition, if he goes wherever he is drawn or wherever the wind blows, he will remain such as he is.
"But if a struggle begins in him, and particularly if there is a definite line in this struggle, then, gradually, permanent traits begin to form themselves, he begins to 'crystallize.'
"But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand, a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved.
"In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength; they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there is now in them something solid, something permanent. Such people can become immortal. But what is the good of it? A man of this kind becomes an 'immortal thing,' although a certain amount of consciousness is sometimes preserved in him. But even this, it must be remembered, occurs very rarely.
Finally, let me ask you a question or two, Groupconduit: How old are you? What is your education and station in life? (Are you married, do you have children?) What esoteric studies have you undertaken?