Session 20 August 2011

Data said:
A.K. said:
We start to see stuff that normally unseen to the naked eye.

Are you saying that you or we can see such things as ghosts etc.?

Of course and indeed..Read the `Fire From Within`as an exellent fourth way explantion of `seeing` in our own world and others. :)

This is quite surprising for me !

Within 2 posts you set the check list of all is negative or bad in France.

And your final point is : "I love France" (you decided to come back...) !

Are you 'masochist'?
Or it is because this is a typical French attitude ...

irrational (you love) in rational (you are aware of dark side)

I would like to say your point of view on Art
Belibaste said:
Art is very present in France, because from my observation it's an external sign of wealth / intelligence
I don't think so : I will replace 'intelligence' by 'creativity'

...why dont' think people find Art is important because simply they like beautiful things?

Personally, what I do not like in Fance are the sanitary practices which are today very poor (hygien), this is a detail you could say, but it shows one do not respect other...

Take it easy!
François said:
Personally, what I do not like in Fance are the sanitary practices which are today very poor (hygien), this is a detail you could say, but it shows one do not respect other...

You can say that again! It's shocking to me that the French can be so attached to their bidets (which are a superior method of personal hygiene imo) and tolerate the most primitive toilet arrangements I've ever encountered. Well, I've heard about public toilets in China and they are undoubtedly barbaric, but geeze, this is France! Supposed to be modern Western country!

Anyway, here's a view of the U.S. by a Brit. Yeah, her complaints are pretty weak and don't make much sense, but she did notice some serious bureaucratic xenophobia/intolerance.
François said:
I do not know what geeze means here (argot , geeze = Jesus?)

A little search on the web and you would have found :
Yes I did, but I googlize geese, and not geeze (without checking), this is why..., so I capture the idea (I lke capture ideas, a lot), you see, ...minus the right letter :-[
Biomiast said:
Shamanism and schizophrenia part is interesting, because same correlation is available in literature, if you take a look at google scholar for the studies linking schizophrenia and shamanism. Basically the researchers think that schizophrenia is a byproduct of shamanic evolution, which is important for group selection. Evidence of this is implied in schizotypy studies and there is a very good lecture from Prof. Robert Sapolsky in here about this condition and what he calls metamagical thinking, a feature of shamans. It is a low quality video, but very informative about the current mainstream approach towards the subject.

Thanks for posting this, Biomiast. Some of the things he says match up pretty well with what John Schumaker says in The Corruption of Reality. Brought to mind the following. First from Aronson's introduction to Dabrowski's Positive Disintegration:

Thomas French and Jacob Kasonin an article published in 1941 present the hypothesis that a schizophrenic episode “may be a transitional episode in the process of emancipation from an old method of adjustment and ‘learning’ a new one,” and that the patient may achieve on recovery “a better social adjustment than had been possible before the illness.”

More recently, Gregory Bateson in a brief introduction to a patient’s story of his psychosis suggests that schizophrenia is a “vast and painful initiation rite conducted by the self,” and that it has a definite course to run leading to the birth of a new identity. Both of these papers are congruent with Dąbrowski’s emphasis on the positive function of acute psychoses.

From Personality Shaping:

As for schizophrenia ... It is, in the last analysis, a specific psychic constitution, consisting of excessive sensitivity (susceptibility to psyche injury) leading, in connection with it, to injuries and conflicts, frustrations, serious traumata, which, being often repeated, change the functioning of neurons, just as toxic factors or mechanical excitations do. According to Sechahaye, schizophrenics, when going through painful, profound experiences, guard themselves against contact with people in various ways, principally by way of external unconcern and negativity, and by way of impulsiveness and violence, evoked by the internal struggle between the need for contact and the dread of it; they guard themselves by passivity and the catatonic attitude, by running away from the environment, and especially from the doctor, and by absurd and grotesque behavior, if they have no other ways of covering themselves up. They avoid contact with the environment because of dread of emotivity, for fear of disturbing the psychotic equilibrium, of rousing one’s own aggressiveness, of humiliation at the hands of other people, and in the internal injunction connected with the feelings of guilt and regret due to departure from the autistic attitude. This avoiding of contact may be overcome, according to this author, by convincing the patient that we wish to satisfy his essential needs. There are two ways of finding the patient’s basic needs: an affectional approach to him during his “bright spells” and better periods of feeling, and the analysis of expressions. Here the external world should adapt itself to the patient, and since the world of symbols and magic is the only world that the patient may tolerate, one should organize this world for him in the least injurious way and permit its gradual reshaping into worlds more closely resembling reality. Schizophrenics are deeply traumatic people and therefore need more feeling and protection than other people.

In our opinion this “special constitution” in schizophrenia seems to possess two fundamental characteristics: (1) markedly increased psychic excitability and (2) a psychic immaturity, in the attitude taken toward the normal, and even more so in the improper reaction to the environment. These are, in essence, positive characteristics (high sensitivity, subtlety, and, not rarely, a considerable fund of capabilities), requiring, however, longer periods of development. In contradistinction to neuroses, we observe in schizophrenia a considerably lower resistance to external stimuli, higher fragility, greater infantilism, and a weaker instinctive structure.

From Mental Growth:

Abély (1, 2) has already described with considerable insight, the borderline forms between psychoneuroses and psychoses. With respect to schizophrenia, he has described a group of intermediate syndromes which he termed schizoneuroses. These are characterized by dissociation of self consciousness, by disintegration of self control, by weakening of the instinct of self preservation and of the reality function, as well as by an insurgence and development of a delusional system. Such disintegration brings about a gradual dissolution of the reality function with respect to oneself and to others.

As compared to psychoneuroses, schizophrenia is characterized by negative disintegration and, more specifically, by dissolution and involution. What are the essential differences between psychoneurotic processes and schizophrenic processes?

We can discern in schizophrenia, already in the hereditary and innate potentials, emotional hyperexcitability that is not channeled in any particular direction. In the very early expression of these potentials we fail to find any strong capacity for inner psychic transformation and no nuclei of mixed psychological type. In the very early social contacts of those who are potential schizophrenics, we find a much greater psychic vulnerability than in those who will develop psychoneurosis. We also find greater and less positive psychic infantilism and, as mentioned above, a weaker capacity for inner psychic transformation. In such cases, expressions of instinctive functions are weaker. An ability to transform them, is especially low, adjustment to reality of a low level is difficult, if not impossible, there is no distinct ability for organization of higher levels of reality. On the contrary, in psychoneurotics one frequently observes a distinct ability to organize higher levels of reality.

A potentially schizophrenic individual cannot withstand the effects of collisions and conflicts with his environment, especially during more difficult periods of his childhood. This leads to breakdown, dissociation of personality, and thus to negative disintegration.

The lack of contact with reality is compensated by delusional symptoms, by flight from reality, by dissociation of personality, by pathological symbolization, by hallucinations, etc., due to the impossibility of enduring the pressures of the negative factors.

It is understandable that the developmental potential existing in susceptible individuals, overwhelmed by negative potentials and experiences, expresses itself with great difficulty but we believe that under very favorable conditions it could find positive expression. Under optimal conditions, the individual could even attempt to overcome his pathological elements. Creative abilities, great syntony, emotional shocks which could break the existing schizophrenic systems can serve as positive forces of development. Such was the case of Clifford Beers, who felt very high empathy towards his fellow inmates, who had a talent for painting, and who thanks to his logical thinking was able in a crucial moment to identify his brother and thus dispelled his delusions about meeting his brother’s double. This led him to psychic regeneration at a higher level (48).

From Diary:

Not all kinds of schizophrenia should be treated, because some of them -- and especially those which are on the borderline of schizophrenia and psychoneurosis -- present creative forces which are, at the same time, almost falling into a precipice and into “heaven,” in the sense of great creativity, self perfection and the grasping of some forms of transcendence.

If we could differentiate the positive and negative nuclei in schizophrenia, we would know which of them should be treated and which should not.

From Psychoneurosis is Not an Illness:

In many cases of schizophrenia where we encounter symptoms of involution and dissolution we can postulate organic malfunction especially that the malfunction is observed first in the sphere of complex higher activities without initially attacking lower functions. Supporting evidence for this view comes from prefrontal lobotomies which separate higher cortical levels of activity (by elimination) from lower subcortical ones which go on efficiently, perhaps even better because of disinhibition.

. In many cases of schizophrenia and related conditions there is a history of severe infectious diseases, high fevers with signs of subsequent neuronal disorders, and also rapidly advancing states of apathy, loss of reality function, dissociation
Another interesting connection to the diet and schizophrenia is omega 3. According to this study, people with schizophrenia have lower levels of omega-3 or polyunsaturated fatty acids. And taking daily doses of fish oil can successfully stave off the onset of schizophrenia in people with a high risk of developing the disorder.

On the other hand, wheat acts as a catalyst or a trigger.

There is also this:

In a controlled study of fatty acids in patients with schizophrenia, doctors at the University Department of Psychiatry, Northern General Hospital, Sheffield, noticed that arachidonic acid and docosahexaenoic acid, were particularly low. These fatty acids are plentiful in meat and fish fats respectively, but not found in vegetable oils. The authors say that 'A strong correlation exists between schizophrenia and deficiencies in fats, . . . The possibility that diets generally low in fat might worsen schizophrenia or even bring on the condition among those already predisposed to it is hard to ignore.'[vi] They go on to suggest that this 'opens up novel and exciting therapeutic possibilities' for dietary treatment of schizophrenia — with a low-carb, high-fat diet.

So it is indeed a matter of balance and what kind of "fuel" is given to the system. If one's diet contains wheat and other carbohydrates, then the level of disbalance and noise are so high, it's impossible to see anything or be able to deal with it successfully. The instruments are so out of tune, it isn't music but cacophony.

Q: (Burma) I think that they're saying that schizophrenia could essentially be a way to be open to seeing other aspects of reality but diet can make it so it basically just makes you crazy without actually seeing anything.
Keit said:
So it is indeed a matter of balance and what kind of "fuel" is given to the system. If one's diet contains wheat and other carbohydrates, then the level of disbalance and noise are so high, it's impossible to see anything or be able to deal with it successfully. The instruments are so out of tune, it isn't music but cacophony.

So true. I just watched yesterday Nora Gedgaudas' presentation, and she talks about all these: the role of grains in mood/psychotic disorders, the importance of fats for the mind, etc. I've started reading her book, Primal Body Primal Mind shortly after. It was so inspiring. Another hit for the C's, eh? ;D
Thanks for that session.

I've never seen eating that way:

A: No not exactly. When humankind "fell" into gross matter, a way was needed to return. This way simply is a manifestation of the natural laws. Consciousness must "eat" also. This is a natural function of the life giving nature of the environment in balance. The Earth is the Great Mother who gives her body, literally, in the form of creatures with a certain level of consciousness for the sustenance of her children of the cosmos. This is the original meaning of those sayings.

Q: (L) So, eating flesh also means eating consciousness which accumulates, I'm assuming is what is being implied here, or what feeds our consciousness so that it grows in step with our bodies? Is that close?

A: Close enough.

Q: (Ailen) And when you eat veggies you're basically eating a much lower level of consciousness. (L) Not only that, but in a sense you're rejecting the gift and you're not feeding consciousness. And that means that all eating of meat should be a sacrament.

A: Yes

Wow, I'll look at my plate differently now.
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