sourdough "do nothng" bread making

SlavaOn

Jedi Master
Laura said:
... I still can't eat them.

Hi Laura.

This article describes an experiment where people with Celiac disease were eating different kinds of bread: http://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(10)00987-0/pdf The scientists came to this conclusion:

A 60-day diet of baked goods made from hydrolyzed wheat flour, manufactured with sourdough lactobacilli and fungal proteases, was not toxic to patients with CD. A combined analysis of serologic, morphometric, and immunohistochemical parameters is the most accurate method to assess new therapies for this disorder.

I came across your old post, but you did not elaborate why it failed in 2010. Have you tried a home made sourdough bread made properly with leaven from wild yeasts after all?

Laura said:
We tried the sourdough business but it was too much hassle and we are so happy with our blinis that we prefer them to anything else.

SlavaOn
 

osher

Jedi
If there is nothing else to eat but wheat, it would be god to know how to almost completely get rid of gluten like they did it in the study.

Hydrolysis of gluten to below 10 ppm was achieved through the activity of complementary peptidases located in the cytoplasm of lactobacilli routinely used in sourdough fermentation. The addition of fungal proteases, used in bakery to modify the elasticity and resistance of gluten, was required to reach the complete gluten degradation. (...) An extended fermentation with lactic acid bacteria and fungal enzymes naturally present or used in sourdough biotechnology could have well lowered the exposure to massive amount of gluten in our past. There is no doubt that the phenotypic disclosure of CD, which appears today as a global epidemic, might be related to a threshold of early exposure.

Do you know the sour rye / żurek / Жур soup? It is full of gluten. I am not willing to experiment unless there's nothing else to eat.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Well, I'm certainly game to experiment! You know me: the great experimenter.
 
Laura said:
We've made yeast bread with rice flour and potato starch. You do need to put some eggs in for binding; it's very good. I even think I might try a sourdough variation if I can get the starter working right.

So far the best starter I had is the one made from Sekowa baking ferment. The taste is superior to Kombucha or other starters I tried and it remains stable in the fridge for weeks. It is available in France from ebay and amazon. A gluten free version(with corn though) is offered at ebay as Sekowa Bio maïs backferment 250 g bio sans gluten.
 

SlavaOn

Jedi Master
I had a dream last night. In that dream, we went to a house on the side of the road, that we must have passed hundreds of times before, when going to and from my grandma's house in the countryside. I think there was a party going on in there, maybe a wedding and this is what made me to stop. Although, I did not know who lives there, something pulled me in. Some people came out and they did not speak any Russian. I guessed that their language was Lithuanian. These people let me know somehow that the head of the family wanted to see/speak to us. Then this dude appeared - he was indeed old, but very heavyset. His face was really dark in color - maybe a color of lead. He came so close that I was able to smell his breath - it smelled sour, like a leaven for sourdough.

I must have been thinking too much about that method recently. ;) The article, that I referred to, gives the numbers where the gluten content in "normal" not hydrolyzed flour is about 80,000 ppm, in extensively hydrolyzed flour is about 2480 ppm and in fully hydrolyzed flower - 8 ppm:

The residual gluten was below 10ppm when hydrolysis was carried out by combining sourdough S1 with fungal enzymes routinely used in bakery

The article referenced their sources and, lo and behold, fungal protease from Aspergillis oryzae was supplied by a company named BIO-CAT Inc in Virginia - almost my neighbor :) I emailed them yesterday and hopefully will be able to source some Fungal Protease (HU), that they produce, soon. Also, I got another wild starter for San Francisco sourdough in dry form. Combining it with the one I made will increase the activity of these yeasts - in the experiment 6 different strains of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis were mixed together. It will be easy to follow the temperature protocol and the length of fermentation period. The difference will be with the choice of flour - the experiment was in Italy and the flours that I use are a mix of Indian Atta flower (whole wheat) and Russian (bread flour). And my recipe does not call for added sugar...

When I have everything down and bake that sourdough bread a few times, I could ship either the bread or the ingredients (leaven and fungal protease) to a volunteer with sensitivity to gluten for testing... In the experiment 5 persons with proven Celiac disease ate 12 kg of bread each over 2 months with no detectable harm.

SlavaOn
 

maiko

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
We've made yeast bread with rice flour and potato starch. You do need to put some eggs in for binding; it's very good. I even think I might try a sourdough variation if I can get the starter working right.

Might it be possible to share the recipe? That sounds like something for a special occasion. We normally do a total keto breakfast nowadays but when we have guests it is sometimes nice to break the bread with them in the morning.

I really miss a piece of toasted bread sometimes. But I feel so much better staying wheat-free.
 

Meager1

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I found this GF Sourdough recipe on Pinterest, if anyone is interested.


"Then, I ran across an old post by Michael Ruhlman about sourdough starter.
In the post he discusses a method of harvesting wild yeast that was developed by a woman named Carri Thurman of Two Sisters Bakery in Homer, Alaska.
She uses a leaf of red cabbage mixed with her flour and water.
You know how red cabbage has a bit of a white film on the leaves?
That is wild yeast. And, so you can use red cabbage to kick-start the yeast harvesting process.
And you know what? It works well and is extremely easy."

http://www.artofglutenfreebaking.com/2010/10/sourdough-starter-gluten-free/


"making the bread;
The basics of this method are actually perfect for gluten-free bread, which does not require any kneading in the first place (because there’s no gluten to manipulate).

OK, let’s get started!!"

http://www.artofglutenfreebaking.com/2010/10/sourdough-bread-boule-gluten-free/
 

JGeropoulas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Chu said:
SlavaOn said:
I am not a wheat bread advocate. I still eat bread and so does my family. I am looking for alternatives to store bought breads. That is why I am trying to learn how to make a different bread for ourselves and share my experience with others. I guess, it could be misleading for some and could fool someone that there is a "good way" to make bread...

Yeah... AFAIK, fermentation is a process that involves sugar. It doesn't solve the problem with gluten (protein), which is suspected to affect at least 70% of the population because of the composition in modern grains. But some types of protein are more tolerable than others, depending on the person. You would have to try and see.
I read this article https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/23/sourdough-bread-gluten-intolerance-food-health-celiac-disease awhile back which included some relevant comments:

Peter Green, Director of the Celiac Disease Center at Columbia University: (re gluten sensitivity) "The long fermentation process to make sourdough bread the old fashioned way does reduce some of the toxic parts of gluten for those who are sensitive to it."

Joseph Murray, Professor of Medicine at the Mayo Clinic: (re gluten intolerance) "sourdough may provide options for celiacs in the future, but I'm not hopeful because of the safety margins needed. Just baking sourdough would not be enough. For the bread to be an option, there would have to be a way to work out the baking process so that the gluten is guaranteed to have uniformly degraded to the point where the bread could be tolerated in each batch."

Another article written by a scientist https://www.glutenfreegigi.com/is-fermented-sourdough-bread-safe-for-celiacs/ breaks down a key study which got misrepresented to the public. Yes, the celiac patients who ate the sourdough bread did NOT have reactions to it because fermentation had reduced regular wheat bread (with 80,127 ppm of gluten) down to a gluten content of only 8 ppm -- which is a very impressive reduction. However, the sourdough used in the study was prepared the old-fashioned way, which uses a lactobacilli based starter culture and NO yeast. This process is slower, thus not as profitable, which is why it would rare to find real, old-fashioned sourdough bread in a retail store.
 

JGeropoulas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
Well, I'm certainly game to experiment! You know me: the great experimenter.
Yes you are! And we all love you for the benefits that often come from that! :)
 
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