Speaking in tongues

oneperson

The Force is Strong With This One
I'm wondering if there has been a discussion on this forum of the religious/spiritual experience of speaking in tongues? I searched the term, but (of course) everything with "in" in it came up on the search.

Does anyone know if the discussion has come up?

Thank you!
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
oneperson said:
I'm wondering if there has been a discussion on this forum of the religious/spiritual experience of speaking in tongues? I searched the term, but (of course) everything with "in" in it came up on the search.

Does anyone know if the discussion has come up?

Thank you!
Have you ever seen the documentary Marjoe? I highly recommend it. He goes into the speaking in tongues thing, with an insider's view. It's basically play acting - (or to put it in other words, an emotional/psychological reaction to stress with an expected response to release that stress).
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Does anyone know if the discussion has come up?
Hi oneperson,

After a search I found a few mentions of speaking in tongues.

You can access them here:
http://cassiopaea.org/?s=%22speaking+in+tongues%22

That's pretty much all there is about it, I'm afraid.
 

oneperson

The Force is Strong With This One
Thank you Palinurus!

Apparently you know how to search better than I. ;)

Did you add the "+" sign when you searched?
 

Beau

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
oneperson said:
Thank you Palinurus!

Apparently you know how to search better than I. ;)

Did you add the "+" sign when you searched?

Pretty sure he used quotations, which searches for the entire phrase instead of each word in the phrase, like "speaking in tongues".
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Well, I did distinctly remember there was some mention of speaking in tongues in Amazing Grace somewhere, so I went to the site cassiopaea.org first and skimmed the chapter titles to jog my memory.

When I didn't find what I was looking for quickly enough, I used the search function over there while adding quotemarks as Heimdallr already supposed. The results' URL came in with the pluses in between and that's what I copy/pasted in my reply to you.
 

oneperson

The Force is Strong With This One
Cool chocolate cheerios!

I learned something about searches I didn't know (or if I did, I forgot). I'll now know to use quotation marks when searching for a phrase.

*thumbsup*

Thank you!

:cool:
 

Beorn

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I suppose speaking in tongues (languages) at the drop of a hat would be quite a unique gift. Probably not so important now with Google translate at everyone's fingertips.

I'm not sure when the incomprehensible babble began, possibly with the arrival of the Pentecostal movement, and as a way to "prove" one has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's partly a self-soothing device to confirm you are connected to God and partly a status symbol of one's faith... IMO.
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
Here is an excerpt from a Marjoe Gortner interview. Marjoe Gortner was a preacher trained for his calling from early childhood. He made the documentary "Marjoe" referred to in anart's post above.

From _http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/marjoe.htm
For Marjoe, who has seen it a million times, the divine moment of religious ecstasy has no mystical quality at all. It is a simple matter of group frenzy that has its counterpart in every crowd.

"It's the same at a rock-and-roll concert," he asserted. "You have an opening number with a strong entrance; then you go through a lot of the old standards, building up to your hit song at the end."

The hit song, however, is spiritual rebirth, the product of a time-tested recipe for religion to which the preacher and every member of the audience contribute some small but active ingredient. Then, according to Marjoe, the only fitting encore to the overwhelming moment of becoming saved is a personal demonstration of the power of that newfound faith. This is the motivating factor that prompts speaking in tongues, also known as the "receiving of the glossolalia." As Marjoe explained it, this well-known Evangelical tradition requires even greater audience participation on the part of the tongues recipient and the entire audience.

"After you've been saved," Marjoe continued, "the next step is what they call 'the infilling of the Holy Spirit.' They say to the new convert, 'Well, now you're saved, but you've got to get the Holy Ghost.' So you come back to get the tongues experience. Some people will get it the same night; others will go for weeks or years before they can speak in tongues. You hear it, you hear everyone at night talking in it in the church, and they're all saying, 'We love you and we hope you're going to get it by tonight.' Then one night you go down there and they all try to get you to get it, and you go into very much of a trance -- not quite a frenzy, but it is an incredible experience.

"During that moment the person forgets all about his problems. He is surrounded by people whom he trusts and they're all saying, 'We love you. It's okay. You're accepted in Christ. We're with you, let it go, relax.' And sooner or later, he starts to speak it out and go dut-dut-dut. Then everyone goes, 'That's it! You've got it!' and the button is pushed and he will in fact start to speak in tongues and just take off: dehan-dayelo-mosatay-leesaso ... and on and on."

Marjoe paused. Flo was dumbfounded by his demonstration, although he hadn't gone into the jerking, trance-like ecstasy that is commonly associated with the tongues movement. I'd seen the classic version in his movie, yet even in this restrained demonstration, Marjoe appeared to be triggering some internal releasing or babbling mechanism. I asked him how he brought it about.

"You'll never get with that attitude," he joked. Then he went on to explain the true nature of the experience. His perspective showed it to be a process that requires a great deal of effort to master.

"Tongues is something you learn," he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church, and the Bible -- if you accept it literally -- that the Holy Ghost spake in another tongue; you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut, and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut, and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's ela-hando-satelay-eek-condele-mosandrey-aseya ... and it's a new language you've got down."

Except that, according to Marjoe, it's not a real language at all. Contrary to most religious understanding, speaking in tongues is by no means passive spiritual possession. It must be actively acquired and practiced. Although the "gift" of tongues is a product of human and not supernatural origin, Marjoe displayed tremendous respect for the experience as an expression of spirituality and fellowship.

"I really don't put it down," he said. "I never have. It's just that I analyze it and look at it from a very rational point of view. I don't see it as coming from God and say that at a certain point the Holy Spirit zaps you with a super whammy on the head and you've 'gone for tongues' and there is it. Tongues is a process that people build up to. Then, as you start to do something, just as when you practice the scales on the piano, you get better at it."

The technical term for speaking in tongues is glossolalia. John Kildahl, a Lutheran clergyman and psychologist, published a study on glossolalia. He concluded (like Marjoe Gortner) that glossolalia is a "learned behavior". In a 1974 New York Times article reporting on his research, it was said

John P. Kildahl, a clinical psychologist and professor at New York Theological Seminary, said here today that the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues constituted 'learned behavior.' Dr. Kildahl, an ordained Lutheran clergy man and former chief psychologist at the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn, recently published a study of glossolalia... In his address, he said that on the basis of his research and extensive correspondence with charismatic Christians it appeared that five elements were normally present when someone began speaking in tongues. These are a 'magnetic' relationship with a group leader, a sense of personal distress, and 'intense emotional atmosphere,' a supporting group, and the prior learning of a rationale of its religious significance. In the case of people who begin to speak in tongues when they are alone, he said 'these five conditions have been present in the days or weeks preceding the initial experience.'

While Kildahl considered hypnotic susceptibility to be a strong factor in glossolalia, subsequent tests conducted by others did not show this connection. The hypothesis that glossolalia is a trance or altered state phenomenon accompanied by dissociation, spontaneous movements etc has also been contradicted by studies where speaking in tongues did not necessarily involve such factors.
 

Mountain Crown

The Living Force
Years ago a friend told me that he accepted an invitation to attend a Pentecostal meeting and was freaked out when a person behind him speaking in tongues finished with ee-aye-ee-aye-oh!
 

oneperson

The Force is Strong With This One
Thank you for the responses and links.

I realize now that there is a Religion sub-forum that I didn't see initially when I was trying to decide where to post this topic. The Religion sub-forum may have been/may be more appropriate for this subject. Apologies about that!

I've spoken in tongues for 35 years now. I'm 53 and started at the age of 18. Hm...well, it's been a little over 35 years. The first time I spoke in tongues was in July, 1977.

The group (The Way International or TWI) that I eventually ended up with (for 28 years) is not Charismatic or Pentecostal; though my first experience with tongues was in a Charismatic Lutheran Church and I did attend a few Pentecostal meetings prior to joining up with The Way. (I exited The Way in October, 2005.)

Every follower in TWI "speaks in tongues." Yes, every follower.

TWI does not interpret the Bible as stating that tongues, or any of the so-called "gifts" listed in I Corinthians 12, is a "gift." But rather, that tongues is a "manifestation" of the "gift of holy spirit." And that every believer can "operate all nine manifestations of the spirit."

In a TWI meeting one will not witness the emotional frenzy that one might see in a Pentecostal or Charismatic meeting. In a TWI meeting, all is "operated" "decent and in order." The leader of the meeting "calls on" individuals to "speak in tongues and interpret" or to "bring forth a word of prophecy." If a person speaks aloud in a tongue, that same person will then follow the tongue with the interpretation.

In a TWI meeting, the group never speaks in tongues (SIT) together unless the meeting is a special meeting called "an excellor's session" which is for instructional purposes only to develop one's fluency in speaking in tongues, in speaking in tongues with interpretation, and in prophecy.

All that said....I am now questioning the legitimacy of my experience with tongues. It has been (for me) an intimate part of spirituality. Since leaving TWI, I have continued to SIT...mainly singing in tongues when I am walking or hiking. It's something I enjoy.

But, but, but...I am now questioning.

Someone recently shared with me regarding "free vocalization" which pretty well describes how TWI leads people into tongues.

There is also (as Gortner mentions) the whole group dynamic thing going on. The feeling is real. What produces that high is similar; ie: the group experience whether it be religious, music, or whatever that moves a person at an emotional level, connecting the experience with the emotion.

I posted on Cassiopaea (even though I remain a skeptic about some things I read here) because of the broad range of experiences I've read here and because posters appear to be well read (much more well read than I am). So I thought I'd throw the subject out to see what might be on the board about SIT and if the subject had been approached.

Following is one link re SIT and where I read about what the author terms as "free vocalization" with an excerpt regarding "free vocalization." The excerpt sounds like the same instructions used in TWI to lead someone into SIT (except TWI adds to breath in before "manifesting", which I always thought was just an aciton to get the people to expect something to happen). Simply change a few words in the description excerpted and slip in the Bible lingo...and ta-da...manifest!

When I googled "free vocalization" I came up with a video in regard to free vocalization when singing.
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGjNzZThpAo

That video led me to googling more and I came upon "scat singing" in jazz, which interestingly...according to references on Wikipedia, "scat singing" can have the same effect/affect as SIT. (I've linked that below along with another excerpt).

***************
RE free vocalization and SIT:
_http://www.frame-poythress.org/linguistic-and-sociological-analyses-of-modern-tongues-speaking-their-contributions-and-limitations/

Excerpt:
[...]
1. Can the average person be taught to produce free vocalization?

Yes. Learning to free vocalize is easier than learning to ride a bicycle. As with the bicycle, the practitioner may feel foolish and awkward at first. But practice makes perfect. Moreover, though at first a person may feel self-conscious, after he has learned he may sometimes forget that he is doing it. It is something that he can start or stop at will without difficulty.
One easy way for a person to learn is to pretend that he is speaking a foreign language. He starts speaking, slowly and deliberately producing syllables. Then be speeds up, consciously trying to make it sound like a language would sound. Once he is doing well, he just relaxes and does not worry any longer about what comes out.
[...]


__________

RE scat singing:
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scat_singing#Critical_assessment

Excerpt:

Scatting may be desirable because it does not "taint the music with the impurity of denotation".[26] [...] Through this wordlessness, commentators have written, scat singing can describe matters beyond words.[26][28] Music critic Will Friedwald has written that Louis Armstrong's scatting, for example, "has tapped into his own core of emotion", releasing emotions "so deep, so real" that they are unspeakable; his words "bypass our ears and our brains and go directly for our hearts and souls".[28]

Various psychological and metaphysical theorists have instead proposed that vocal improvisation allows for revelations from the soul’s depths.[29] Musician and lecturer Roberto Laneri has proposed a theory of improvisation based on "different states of consciousness" that draws on the Jungian model of the collective unconscious.[29] The music stemming from Laneri’s improvisatory "consciousness expansion" tends to be vocal, as the voice is regarded as the "primal instrument".[29]

Scat singing has never been universally accepted, even by jazz enthusiasts. Writer and critic Leonard Feather offers an extreme view: he once said that "scat singing—with only a couple exceptions—should be banned".[18] Many of the finest jazz singers, including Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday, Jimmy Rushing, and Dinah Washington, have avoided scat entirely.[30]
 

oneperson

The Force is Strong With This One
(Sorry for any typos in my previous post...and anything that may read funny. I didn't proofread well enough. :rolleyes: If anything needs clarifying, just ask...which I've learned on this board happens regularly. Which is a good thing, imo. :) )

Below is an excerpt, regarding SIT, from an interview with Dan Barker. Some here may be familiar with Barker. I think I've read Gortner via Barker's writings...maybe.

Anyhoo...along the same lines as Gortner...

_http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/02/dan-barkers-godless-is-marvelous.html

Excerpt from the interview with Barker:
[...]
On the reality of spiritual experiences

"But my personal religious experience of knowing and loving God is so special," believers will often say, "that I feel sorry for you atheists who have nothing like that." Oh, really? I play jazz piano.

...Suppose I were to say, "Oh, you poor non-jazz musicians; you don't know what you are missing. I can't describe it to you, and even if you listen to us you are not going to understand what is happening in our minds. It's very real and you'll just have to take our word for it."

You would understand that I am talking about something that is happening to me, not to you, and the fact that you lack my inner experience is no threat to your own self-worth or worldview. What if I were to say that the only way you can have true meaning in your life is if you practice piano for four hours a day for 20 years and learn to play jazz, like I did? You would think I was joking, or seriously deluded.

I do not deny that spiritual experiences are real. They happen all over the world, in most religions. I deny that they point to anything outside of the mind. I had many religious experiences, and I can still have them if I want. As an atheist I can still speak in tongues and "feel the presence of God."

...I know some atheists who pooh-pooh religious experiences, thinking they are all made up, purely psychological tricks of an unsophisticated mind. But they are wrong. Religious experiences are very real. I had them as a believer, and I can duplicate them as a nonbeliever.
[...]
 
I'd never had any experience with people speaking in tongues until last November - i got dragged along to some from of Pentecostal style church to see my niece & nephew take part in something on stage.

At some point during the service, as the worship grew in intensity, a member of the congregation broke out in the 'speaking in tongues' phenomena ..... it was the single most scary experience I have ever witnessed. It took all my reserve not to run out of the place in terror lol.

What shook me to the core about the whole experience was just seeing the depths that human beings will go to, to actively give away their energy, maybe even their soul (if they could), to higher entities. The entire place was a feeding frenzy for 4D STS and it still saddens me to think about it.

I suppose i'll never understand the human predilection for giving their free will away. Anyway, sorry if i wandered off topic!
 

Al Today

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
As I understand "speaking in tongues" is for example is when the speaker up in front of a group of people, where each of the goup all speak sundry different home languages. But, the speaker up front is understood by all the audience as they "hear" the speaker speaking in each of their own home languages. Just me here, but methinks speaking in tongues is not speaking "blah blah bloop gobble dee gook" that need to be interpreted by someone speshul....
fwiw, this is what I understand what that is, then again, what do I know anyway?
 
So glad I have stumbled upon this thread for I too have been curious about speaking in tongues. When I left religion, I was thinking of all the "gifts" I operate in. Speaking in tongues is one and in multiple languages, i.e., I can copy other people's language which also is weird for me but do not know how to interpret them, only when I was lead to a certain scripture in the Bible. I wonder if I can still do it or what does it really do. 🤔🤔🤔
 
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