Strange loops

[paralleloscope]

Yesterday i stumbled on the concept of strange loops:

A strange loop is a phenomenon in which, whenever movement is made upwards or downwards through the levels of some hierarchical system, the system unexpectedly arrives back where it started.

What I mean by "strange loop" is — here goes a first stab, anyway — not a physical circuit but an abstract loop in which, in the series of stages that constitute the cycling-around, there is a shift from one level of abstraction (or structure) to another, which feels like an upwards movement in a hierarchy, and yet somehow the successive "upward" shifts turn out to give rise to a closed cycle. That is, despite one's sense of departing ever further from one's origin, one winds up, to one's shock, exactly where one had started out. In short, a strange loop is a paradoxical level-crossing feedback loop.

and a clip , illustrating the illusion of motion

The concept is related to non linearity and self-reference, scientifically and artisticly. The reason I wanted to share is, this morning I was pondering my social inadequacy, and what kind of programs where dictating it, which is a tangled hierarchy of prompts by predator/introject, but I pretended that I would be able to map it on a 'global' basis of my incarnations cardinal thougths (regarding socialisation) which repeats itself in the day to day replications of itself:

Why am I afraid of speaking and stepping up in a social setting? (a coarse list)

Initial distrust towards other selves (people) - general disconnect in feeling the meeting
the meeting is nonsense if I am disconnected in relating to the other on an emotional level
the incomprehension of an emotionally nonsensical meeting corrodes my confidence and narration
which prooves in my nerve to be there in passion and i switch to arsenal of stale impression in hardly shareable mental solitude
making me rely on the chameleon false personality with no purpose other than mindlessly repeating itself in a communication (breakdown) continuum:

every bit is self referential to the original 'sin' of turning my back on social creation, an attempt at illustrating:

This may seem a noodle-salad approach, but to me it made clear how ever pervading that initial promt is, untill it is corrected by conscious interaction. I realize illustration attempt still needs a lot of work towards clarity.

 

[truth seeker]

Yeah, the last two lines (for me) in the coarse list does border on word salad.

What I will say however, is that when I feel socially inadequate, it's usually a problem I'm having with feelings of self worth. How I feel others are perceiving me.

If I'm understanding what you wrote, it seems that your self confidence is derived from others. You're essentially putting the responsibility on others instead of finding out why you feel and react the way you do. You feel that you also have to put on a false personality to be around others because you don't feel safe enough being yourself. Is that it?

 

[andi]

Hi Freyr,
I tend to agree with Truth seeker on this one but just in case you didn't have a chance to check, here is a deff. form the cassiopaea glossary reagarding feedback loops, trough it may not be what you are referring to : http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=602

Positive vs. Negative Feedback

Sc.

These science terms are often used in a somewhat allegoric sense.

Literally, a negative feedback loop is a system that seeks to maintain a constant state. An example would be a thermostat that switches the air conditioning on when the room gets too hot.

A positive feedback loop is one where the system's output feeds its input, adding energy to the system and again increasing output, and so on, repeatedly. An example is a sound system where a microphone picks up the signal to the speakers, feeds it to the amplifier, which sends the same signal to the speakers, which is again picked up by the microphone. This usually makes a loud screeching sound. An explosive chain reaction or the cascading discharge of energy from electrons dropping orbits in a laser is another example of the general idea.

The point of the analogy is that humanity seems to be living inside a negative feedback loop which eventually destroys all its accomplishments. History is full of examples of advance being followed by war and chaos.

The other side of the analogy is that a process of creation building and expanding on itself - a positive feedback loop - would be the model for a service to others oriented mode of being. Also, Such a process may be internal to a person as well as societal or cosmic. Sudden realizations, jumps from chaos into order, seem to have this nature. A certain accumulation of energy, knowledge or understanding reaches a critical point then enters a qualitatively different state. Such a jump seems to consist of a cascade of positive feedback from the system on itself.

In a final sense both types of processes are needed for the universe's 'metabolism.' The consciousness of a being may however choose to tend towards one or the other type of process.

 

[paralleloscope]

word salad

Yeah i can see that now. An old speciality of mine. There is something for me to learn here, I have been through many phases in trying to respond to this, acting up- what the hell was i thinking, other than 'what great thinking I awoke with'. I have been getting much clearer in thougth lately, thanks to eiru eiolas, so i thougth i could pull this off. But still buffers are popping up, this one is called the wall of complexly salad.

You feel that you also have to put on a false personality to be around others because you don't feel safe enough being yourself. Is that it?

Yes, In backtracking to my thinking earlier, I omitted a point from my sketch list, which was to hold the second last line in the coarse list ;

The special effects - the egoic safeguard which holds the false personality in place, the programs working hard give an impression of compensation to cover up the hole. This is what I am terrified of being found out for, identified with the predators fear of exposure by nonchelantly smearing fancy word salad. I admire simple wording, but some program in me fears me being simple. I think this was what mr. radar was reffering to when he said 'drop the vocabulary' which he is not the first to have said, I always thougth the more expensive a word the more elucidating, forgetting one has to be able to explain it. Oh my, now i see that the program is one I installed out of under achiever shame. and to think: the times where I allow myself to be simple, when i am alone is when I am in contact with faith and limitless possibilities this is really huge if this buffer will stay down.

Basically I thougth I could show narcisisstic wounding through a prism, as a basic premise or choice of gravity in a host of identifications in repression of Self. Deriving my life's repressed emotions to a single point, evident in every situation with a program involved.

so far it's is working, at least for me, thanks to you thruthseeker and andi.

If I'm understanding what you wrote, it seems that your self confidence is derived from others. You're essentially putting the responsibility on others instead of finding out why you feel and react the way you do.

I secretly blamed my parents for a long time for my reactions and feelings, and then my friends for not listening. On a deeper level I knew it is my responsibility, and on an adjacent level there is the program which lets the programming decide what i feel. Allthough my special effects factory described above is designed for confidence from others, my real Self confidence derives from faith and (higher emotional) knowing what my relation to others is, what am i here for, who am i? basically what is the local situation really in a wholistic sense. But since this connection ( lower emotional center ruled by introject) was choked I did not feel Real, which made room for an anti confidential- false personality, to survive or accomodate the negatively loopingfake world. I am working on full response ability.

form the cassiopaea glossary reagarding feedback loops, trough it may not be what you are referring to

yes that appears to be somewhat the same, thanks.

 

[Mike_3091]

Initial distrust towards other selves (people) - general disconnect in feeling the meeting
the meeting is nonsense if I am disconnected in relating to the other on an emotional level
the incomprehension of an emotionally nonsensical meeting corrodes my confidence and narration
which prooves in my nerve to be there in passion and i switch to arsenal of stale impression in hardly shareable mental solitude
making me rely on the chameleon false personality with no purpose other than mindlessly repeating itself in a communication (breakdown) continuum:

Why do you distrust people? Do you not trust them to accept you for who you are? Have you attempted to show your true self to many different people? If not, how do you expect to progress? Acknowledging your problems is only the first step. You need to actively try and be who you are. If you don't know who you are than you need to find that out first. I once didn't know who I was and I would wear fake smiles and conversation also seemed pointless to me, in fact life seemed pointless to me. I suffered from tremendous lack of self worth stemming from much childhood neglect - and lack of love.

What I have come to realize is that every situation presents an opportunity for learning. I don't actively think what did I learn from someone - that isn't the point. Everyone deserves there due to be acknowledged. Often times I will show humanity to people with a smile or a interest in them...and then something remarkable happens. They open up and many times it's quite a bit. I hear traumatic stories from people all day. All they want to do is be recognized for who they are. That is what you are trying to do.

You say that you are at peace while being alone. Perhaps you should spend more time alone than with others being a chameleon. This should help you ease into discovering you self respect. By doing things you want to do. Not being influenced by others. The next important step would be to seek people who would accept you for who you are. In my case this was family and a couple good friends. If you are a chameleon all the time - I don't think it would be wise to drop it all at once. It needs to unfold naturally(let it flow don't have it in your head what is right to say or not). After this I would imagine you should have some confidence in who you are and then you can unleash yourself on the world ;D. This is all a suggestion - I suppose I was trying to make a strong affirmation that you need to be active about this. That is what I think but more importantly what do you think?

As for your language...it was hard for me to understand what you were trying to say many times. You claim to do this because you don't want to be an "under-achiever." Using that same faulted societal logic do you not think that being an "over-achiever" is any better? Language is used to communicate ideas. By speaking as if you had just taken a vocab test you effectively reduce the amount of people that can properly communicate with you. This to me says, "I am going to indirectly choose what type of person I can communicate with because the rest are not worth my time" or, "I am afraid what others will think of what I say, so I will speak in such a way that they cannot understand what I am trying to convey." If it is the latter, it is an entire betrayal of language itself. If it is the first, it is incredible arrogant.

Perhaps these bluntly stated thoughts will help you realize something. As when you, yourself did the same for me in my post...although that was written quite simply and I look forward to the simple understandable and direct posts I know you can make. :)

 

[Buddy]

{...}
I once didn't know who I was...
{...}

Hi Mike_3091. I'm just curious here. In the context of your post, which "I" are you making reference to? The Real I; that is, the Authentic Self...or the false personality as a whole?

The reason I ask is because considering the purpose of this forum, the advice about doing what you want to do in order to discover self-respect and to 'unleash oneself on the world', seems more suited to Gurdjieff's "mechanics" rather than the genuine psychology that is relevant to man as he might become from the viewpoint of the Fourth Way Work.

That's just my impression, which could be wrong.

 

[truth seeker]

Just to avoid confusion, I've split off Eongar's topic as to not distract from the thread and because he brought up an interesting subject.

 

[paralleloscope]

Hi Mike thanks for your reply

My post was an attempt to explore those very primal of patterns, programs dictating me from behind the curtains so to speak. In a manner of '4th way' speaking, one can not be ones true Self, if programs still are running, that would imply that one is still asleep in robotland.

Why do you distrust people?

a very basic reaction pattern of narcisisstic wounding and living in a world not willing to know itself

Do you not trust them to accept you for who you are?

This is actually a difficult question to answer, entirely dependant on who and how I would be interacting with their level of acceptance, and on which level we are talking 'who I am'. We are living in a world of pathological strain which has a limited level of Knowledge, Understanding and Being. My old understanding has been to match the given context for what I thougth was needed, the problem here is the empathic connection, as I had areas of repressed emotions which excluded my participation and interacting on those levels but on other levels I was being fed to much information which skewed the situation in favor of mental exercises of fear and desperatly trying to understand the situation. This distortion was what I thougth was me and by that I did not feel accepted. The meeting on the level of emotions bound by hidden commands is what I am trying to unearth here. I am in a phase of having magnified the most basic of programs, such as childhood internalisations and the effect of having repressed emotional areas, these hinder a meetings emotional reality and a feedback loop of acceptance.

Acknowledging your problems is only the first step. You need to actively try and be who you are. If you don't know who you are than you need to find that out first. I once didn't know who I was and I would wear fake smiles and conversation also seemed pointless to me, in fact life seemed pointless to me. I suffered from tremendous lack of self worth stemming from much childhood neglect - and lack of love.

Acknowledging comes first yes, then seeking information about it, which is what I came here for, I tried to untangle and self remember before I came here but the systems which I explored were not internally consistent, Here I came to an understanding of relations between the spiritual and psychological mechanisation, when this overview is somewhat attained then I can start observing my 'build'. Here I can look openly at the bits in tandem with real life interactions, leading me through a positive disintegration of automatic imprint.

Perhaps you should spend more time alone than with others being a chameleon.

I am spending most of my time alone, for a couple of years I have isolated myself, trying to 'bring down the walls' and disconnecting from the people I hung around with as their acquaintance was holding me within a fence. Now I wish to seek socialisation again but in a context of helping not as before where I thougth I was invited to help, trying to persuade thruth into unwarranted situations, really not listening to their wishes to remain asleep. The chameleon nature has it's positive sides in trying to externally consider the situation and it's negative ones in regard to a false personality which unallows much emotional nature and moment(um) of the situation, internally considering and trying to match an acceptable profile.

As for your language...it was hard for me to understand what you were trying to say many times. You claim to do this because you don't want to be an "under-achiever." Using that same faulted societal logic do you not think that being an "over-achiever" is any better?

My fault was trying to formalize to an extent of a general algorithm of STS nature in programs, in doing this complex mind flex, I was cheating myself and others of clarity, as I was exploring a strange loop which I had not understood yet and presented in a garbled manner. What I discovered in the line of loops, is a subroutine of compensation for having been identified with an 'under-achiever', which means not living up to my potential. Over-achieving in this context would be trying to cover neglected territory and maybe reach balance of understanding.

By speaking as if you had just taken a vocab test you effectively reduce the amount of people that can properly communicate with you.

I know, this was not a conscious choice. Having lived with simple people, and always had a heart for the underdog, seeking them out trying to relate within the gamut of 'basic folk on down to the bottomfeeder' this formed a certain personality, but inside I had a deep thirst for knowledge not represented in those circles, which I did not seek in books or school, at least not in early life. Somehow in my bilingual nature my danish spoken side remained in very simplistic revolutions and my english side which I did not exercise openly, opened up to an influx of complex impressions, nonsense in the begining but something inside me was trying to get me connected with knowledge, and the way it came out was in expensive vocabulary mixed with the simple and incoherent syntax of my confused under achiever personality, straining an already strained dialogue. This split, I am trying to fuse as I having learnt the overall nature of why this is.

Mike I appreciated your questions, they were actually extra difficult to answer as it seems you are not talking from or understanding through the normal '4th way' context of the forum, so my answer try to bridge this seeming divide, hope they were clear. May I recommend the reading list

___________________________________________________________________________________

I have realized that the sort of thinking which the topic was formed under, is similar in some regards to the unscientific ventures of fractal explorers like Stan Tenen and Dan Winther, whose 'systems' give leeways for 'filling in the blanks' and imaginary / illusionary management, in trying to boil the laws of nature into complexely simplistic understandings, gobledygook as a method for self observation. This was an exercise in abstraction which showed me, how loops of self similarity, on the overall and in non linearity, acting from environment towards personality development can be seen recursively, this is no sound method of exploring such. Not that I think to have relayed my reasoning and internal findings here properly, but better understanding and clearer communication of my own strange loops is happening, through sharing the semi nonsense which travels my mind.