Stuck between two approaches..

MatiaS

Jedi
So throughout my journey I've bounced between many sets of beliefs in regards to what "spirituality" actually means to me and how it relates to my "physical" life. I tend to be quite an extremist so when I get into something I really get into it. So I've studied a few approaches to this reality and also practiced them. My issue, I think, comes from always wanting more, wanting to find the next rabbit-hole to go down or the next abstract concept I can try to understand the world through.

In the past year or so I've managed to tone it down a bit on the theoretical side and instead trying to focus more on the practical applications of the knowledge. Having kids and a semi self-sufficient lifestyle to maintain though I don't find much time to do meditation or energy work, so when I do have my hours in the evening I usually spend them researching anyway (especially with the plandemic being an inexhaustible source of information right now, tying together many aspects of the overall agenda).

Anyway, the point of this post is to maybe get some viewpoints on this question/pondering I have about the "correct" approach to a "spiritual practice". I always try to simplify and streamline abstract and energetic concepts so I can try to understand them in a 3D way. A fruitless effort I know, since our language I believe can not be used to accurately explain concepts outside space and time as we currently understand those concepts. I mean the use of language (spoken/written) by necessity needs to be expressed linearly. The silver-lining (correct use of this word?) here is though that we can use language to kind of orient our consciousness in the right direction, to understand 'where to look' energetically speaking and to move in that direction, and then once the threshold is passed, the understanding/innerstanding takes on a more energetic/direct knowing.

So finally I get to the core of what I want to convey: It seems to me that throughout all the teachings, philosophies, schools-of-thought, books and materials I've read and acquainted myself with (which of course is a tiny drop in the ocean of all that is available out there), there are two basic approaches that stuff seems to boil down to, which are:

The "passive" approach

The "active" approach

Passive:
So what I mean by this is that it seems that many schools of thought seem to heavily emphasize the need to allow things to unfold on their own, without superimposing your petty egoic fantasies on top of it. To just sit and wait and observe. To align your Personal Will with the Will of the Divine. To in many ways detach from the world with its worldly worries and trust that everything is taken care of. Sometimes there is the idea of an external savior, assuring you that in any case, however things may seem, everything will always be okay in the end. In this approach I feel the pursuit of knowledge is often adviced against, since we can't know things "as God knows them", and that all seeming acquisition of knowledge is somehow perverted or incomplete. Just stay in the now-moment and let things be as they are, for they are already perfect, it is our "meddling" with creation that makes it 'negative'/undesirable.

Active: This approach would include all practices of Magick and Witchcraft and "Manifestation/Intention-work" of all kinds. This approach states that to have all the things you want (be they spiritual or material) you must go make it happen yourself. Meditations seem to be more active in a way, still having you observe, but also not shying away from imposing your personal Will to make things happen within altered states of consciousness. Energy work in its different manifestations belong to this category, as well as rituals, ceremonies, astral projection/lucid dreaming etc. This approach is more geared towards the Power of the Individual instead of aligning with a 'Divine' Will.

Thoughts: First I want to say that in my personal Work, I do resonate with parts of both approaches, and ultimately I also do believe that the Narrow Path we are called to walk does incorporate both of these modalities. Even within specific materials or philosophies, the ideas oftentimes incorporates aspects of both of these approaches. I do however have personal alarm-bells going off whenever stuff seems to be too passive. To just sit in lotus position and wait for the storm to pass seems very much like "New age cointelpro" stuff to me.

I have, while scanning this forum, read that many people seem to recoil at mentions of Magickal practices of all sorts, I would like to know why this is? I currently do not practice what would be termed "magickal pracites", and barely dipped my little toe into it when I did look into it, but I do believe we are Magical beings who exert our Will on our surroundings every moment of every day, so why do people advice against practicing something which potentially could lead to a deeper understanding of these mechanics?

The practical stuff I have landed on for the moment is the material of a certain John Kreiter. He presents his work through the lens of Inner Alchemy and makes a big deal about trying to strip away all dogma attached to these fundamentally energetic concepts and realities we are dealing with. The theory he presents is compelling and does resonate with me in a deep way. I have moments of intuitive understandings of the energies at play in our day-to-day life and can see how we've attached layers upon layers of dogma and interpretation on top of these energetic truths, in the process muddying the waters, as we get so hooked on attaching labels and definitions to ideas and energies our language is not capable of expressing adequately.

I am also passionately fascinated by the paradoxes that seem to permeate our reality-construct, and because of this, I might be answering my own question here, that ultimately to walk the Path, you must use both legs.

Does someone else have this line of thinking when it comes to what "spiritual practice" actually entails for you personally? What are the arguments for and against the Passive and the Active respectively, as I have presented them here?

I have so many connected ideas I would like to tie into this but it's already a lot of text and I think the main point kind of got out there at least.

Thanks for reading :boat:
 
Generally speaking, I think you will find a lot of answers to your questions if you read Laura's Wave series:

That's okay. But it is recommended to get familiar with the material and especially Laura's Wave Series is the way to go to understand the underlying concepts of the forum here.


It seems that many of the "esoteric" ideas and concepts out there about "what to do" might be wrapped up in too much "woo-woo" and "out there" stuff, while the real things we seem to be in need of learning here are simple karmic lessons and understandings:

Q: (L) The non-balloon is when the balloon switches off - but it does it so fast you are not aware of it - like a pulsation...? I mean, I am desperate here!

A: You see, my dear, when you arrive at 4th density, then you will see.

Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I can't "get it?"

A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?

Q: (L) Well, that leads back to: what is the wave going to do to expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what "gets you there," what makes this so?

A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your lessons in "third grade," where do you go?

Q: (L) So, it is a question of...

A: Answer, please.

Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.

A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order to be allowed to go there? Answer.

Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...

A: Yes.
More apropos: you have to have learned all of the lessons.

Q: (L) What kind of lessons are we talking about here?

A: Karmic and simple understandings.


Q: (L) What are the key elements of these understandings, and are they fairly universal?

A: They are universal.

Q: (L) What are they?

A: We cannot tell you that.

Q: (L) Do they have to do with discovering the MEANINGS of the symbology of 3rd density existence, seeing behind the veil... and reacting to things according to choice? Giving each thing or person or event its due?

A: Okay. But you cannot force the issue. When you have learned, you have learned!

Q: (L) I just want to make sure that I am doing the most I can do. I don't want to have to come back to 3rd density. If I can accelerate things a little...

A: You cannot, so just enjoy the ride. Learning is fun!

Q: (Artemis) Didn't we want to ask about Deckard?

(L) Deckard wants to know why he got cancer.

A: FRV.

Q: (Pierre) Entropic FRV?

A: Not "entropic" so much as negative internalizations.

Q: (L) So, he really needs to work on his FRV. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Is it as we were saying earlier in our discussion that dealing with karmic and simple understandings is the key? I wrote a post about it on the romance novel thread today [New title: Romantic Fiction, Reality Shaping and The Work] Is this one of the ways that can really help with that? It can take you through multiple processes by engaging in this reading project, thinking about it, and sharing with others what you are experiencing and learning?

A: Yes. True for nearly everyone.
 
Interesting. The desire to go one way or the other is a desire to settle the issues and not think/learn/grow anymore: to just be done with it and sleep. We see this play out in so many areas. The unsatisfying answer in an STS world is “balance in all things”. Perspicacity. Knowing when to be active and when to be passive which requires development of personal faculties as well as philosophies to determine just what is objective and how to respond based on...what, exactly? For each to figure out on their own.

“Know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em” as the song goes.

The old Oracle of Delphi.

The desire for an absolute answer may be your enemy.
 
Your description of the active and the passive approach to life reminded me of the ancient (Roman) distinction between vita activa and vita contemplativa which dominated much of the spiritual life during the Middle Ages in Europe.

Hannah Arendt - widely considered one of the most important political thinkers of the 20th century - wrote a book entitled The Human Condition published in 1958 in which she revisited this ancient dichotomy to analyze its possible implications for modern life, notably the political life in its broader scope i.e. the social realm as a mixture of public and private spheres.

A review of some aspects of her analysis (to get acquainted with her terminology) can be found here and of course by googling for it.

Hope this helps you a bit farther on your way. :-)
 
Interesting. The desire to go one way or the other is a desire to settle the issues and not think/learn/grow anymore: to just be done with it and sleep.
Do you mean by this that we should "desire to be desireless"? To remain centered and neutral and objective? Is any desire STS? To be in STO is to just accept that everything happens how it's supposed to? Free will is choosing not to choose?


The desire for an absolute answer may be your enemy.
I agree and this is something I was battling with for a long time. I always thought that somewhere I would find THE ANSWER that would explain everything.

I don't know what the general consensus on this forum is about entheogens and their use, but what helped me tremendously in settling this anxiousness within me was a potent changa (DMT) experience. Long trip story short; at some point I had the idea to ask the experience a question. In the nanosecond that I had the intention to ask, an infinitely complex spiraling fractal pattern appeared from one direction - representing the infinite way in which I could have asked the question - and simultaneously a "mirror image" of this pattern appeared from the other direction - representing the infinite way in which the question could be answered - and merged together into a tapestry of interweaving knowledge. Of course I couldn't understand any "specifics" of what I was being shown, but ever since that journey (about 2 years ago now) I do feel more at peace also with not knowing (something I could never have felt at peace with before), and I'm still integrating this experience to this day.

Your description of the active and the passive approach to life reminded me of the ancient (Roman) distinction between vita activa and vita contemplativa which dominated much of the spiritual life during the Middle Ages in Europe.

Hannah Arendt - widely considered one of the most important political thinkers of the 20th century - wrote a book entitled The Human Condition published in 1958 in which she revisited this ancient dichotomy to analyze its possible implications for modern life, notably the political life in its broader scope i.e. the social realm as a mixture of public and private spheres.

A review of some aspects of her analysis (to get acquainted with her terminology) can be found here and of course by googling for it.

Hope this helps you a bit farther on your way. :-)

Thanks for the recommendation! I will look into this. :)
 
I don't know what the general consensus on this forum is about entheogens and their use, but what helped me tremendously in settling this anxiousness within me was a potent changa (DMT) experience. Long trip story short; at some point I had the idea to ask the experience a question.

As Laura put it, the short answer is probably: "there is no free lunch, and if you think there is, you are the lunch". Using drugs in the hopes to achieve more "spirituality" or whatever is IMO mostly about believing that one can take a shortcut or "easy way out". Generally speaking, I think stuff like this is only helpful in very specific cases and just as a short term tool:

(L) So, first of all, is it okay to ask about this? This was published on the internet, so I guess it's not like a private situation. Is it okay for us to even ask about it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Is this person still alive in the body?

A: No

Q: (Pierre) How did she die?

A: Driven by voices to expose herself to danger.

Q: (Andromeda) Whose voices?

A: In her head.

Q: (L) And what was the source of these voices?

A: Entities hanging around

Q: (L) Were these entities hanging around because of her encounter with psychedelic drugs?

A: Partly but she was also mentally and psychically vulnerable due to genetic factors.

Q: (L) Let me just make a statement here. People who have particular genetic vulnerabilities should not participate in hallucinogenic drug activities? Is that a reasonable assumption to make?

A: Yes

Q: (L) But then people don't always know whether they're genetically vulnerable, do they?

A: No

Q: (L) Anything else to say about it?

(Galatea) Is there a way to determine if someone is genetically vulnerable?

A: No

Q: (Perceval) Just don't be messing with psychedelic drugs, no matter who you are. That sounds reasonable.

(Chu) What kind of danger did she expose herself to?

A: Places people.

Q: (Perceval) Was she murdered?

A: Yes

Q: (Perceval) So she fell in with the very wrong crowd.

(L) You can't get us any closer than that?

A: No, since there is no direct linkup.

Q: (L) In other words, since we're not directly connected to her or know anything about her, we can't tune in any closer than that. Well...

A: All should be aware of the potentials for entity interference when utilizing psychedelics. They can be beneficial in some cases but with care.

Q: (L) I would say you have to also have people who are fully aware of the possibilities, doing mental blocking, taking care of the energy around...

A: Yes
 
So throughout my journey I've bounced between many sets of beliefs in regards to what "spirituality" actually means to me and how it relates to my "physical" life. I tend to be quite an extremist so when I get into something I really get into it. So I've studied a few approaches to this reality and also practiced them. My issue, I think, comes from always wanting more, wanting to find the next rabbit-hole to go down or the next abstract concept I can try to understand the world through.

In the past year or so I've managed to tone it down a bit on the theoretical side and instead trying to focus more on the practical applications of the knowledge. Having kids and a semi self-sufficient lifestyle to maintain though I don't find much time to do meditation or energy work, so when I do have my hours in the evening I usually spend them researching anyway (especially with the plandemic being an inexhaustible source of information right now, tying together many aspects of the overall agenda).

Anyway, the point of this post is to maybe get some viewpoints on this question/pondering I have about the "correct" approach to a "spiritual practice". I always try to simplify and streamline abstract and energetic concepts so I can try to understand them in a 3D way. A fruitless effort I know, since our language I believe can not be used to accurately explain concepts outside space and time as we currently understand those concepts. I mean the use of language (spoken/written) by necessity needs to be expressed linearly. The silver-lining (correct use of this word?) here is though that we can use language to kind of orient our consciousness in the right direction, to understand 'where to look' energetically speaking and to move in that direction, and then once the threshold is passed, the understanding/innerstanding takes on a more energetic/direct knowing.

So finally I get to the core of what I want to convey: It seems to me that throughout all the teachings, philosophies, schools-of-thought, books and materials I've read and acquainted myself with (which of course is a tiny drop in the ocean of all that is available out there), there are two basic approaches that stuff seems to boil down to, which are:

The "passive" approach

The "active" approach

Passive:
So what I mean by this is that it seems that many schools of thought seem to heavily emphasize the need to allow things to unfold on their own, without superimposing your petty egoic fantasies on top of it. To just sit and wait and observe. To align your Personal Will with the Will of the Divine. To in many ways detach from the world with its worldly worries and trust that everything is taken care of. Sometimes there is the idea of an external savior, assuring you that in any case, however things may seem, everything will always be okay in the end. In this approach I feel the pursuit of knowledge is often adviced against, since we can't know things "as God knows them", and that all seeming acquisition of knowledge is somehow perverted or incomplete. Just stay in the now-moment and let things be as they are, for they are already perfect, it is our "meddling" with creation that makes it 'negative'/undesirable.

Active: This approach would include all practices of Magick and Witchcraft and "Manifestation/Intention-work" of all kinds. This approach states that to have all the things you want (be they spiritual or material) you must go make it happen yourself. Meditations seem to be more active in a way, still having you observe, but also not shying away from imposing your personal Will to make things happen within altered states of consciousness. Energy work in its different manifestations belong to this category, as well as rituals, ceremonies, astral projection/lucid dreaming etc. This approach is more geared towards the Power of the Individual instead of aligning with a 'Divine' Will.

Thoughts: First I want to say that in my personal Work, I do resonate with parts of both approaches, and ultimately I also do believe that the Narrow Path we are called to walk does incorporate both of these modalities. Even within specific materials or philosophies, the ideas oftentimes incorporates aspects of both of these approaches. I do however have personal alarm-bells going off whenever stuff seems to be too passive. To just sit in lotus position and wait for the storm to pass seems very much like "New age cointelpro" stuff to me.

I have, while scanning this forum, read that many people seem to recoil at mentions of Magickal practices of all sorts, I would like to know why this is? I currently do not practice what would be termed "magickal pracites", and barely dipped my little toe into it when I did look into it, but I do believe we are Magical beings who exert our Will on our surroundings every moment of every day, so why do people advice against practicing something which potentially could lead to a deeper understanding of these mechanics?

The practical stuff I have landed on for the moment is the material of a certain John Kreiter. He presents his work through the lens of Inner Alchemy and makes a big deal about trying to strip away all dogma attached to these fundamentally energetic concepts and realities we are dealing with. The theory he presents is compelling and does resonate with me in a deep way. I have moments of intuitive understandings of the energies at play in our day-to-day life and can see how we've attached layers upon layers of dogma and interpretation on top of these energetic truths, in the process muddying the waters, as we get so hooked on attaching labels and definitions to ideas and energies our language is not capable of expressing adequately.

I am also passionately fascinated by the paradoxes that seem to permeate our reality-construct, and because of this, I might be answering my own question here, that ultimately to walk the Path, you must use both legs.

Does someone else have this line of thinking when it comes to what "spiritual practice" actually entails for you personally? What are the arguments for and against the Passive and the Active respectively, as I have presented them here?

I have so many connected ideas I would like to tie into this but it's already a lot of text and I think the main point kind of got out there at least.

Thanks for reading :boat:
The reason we approach the slow way of passive path is that magic/psychic ability is not our main objective it will come on its own time when you are ready to receive such ability according to your own vibrations. If you focus too much on magical ability but neglecting your purification and development of your lower self/ ego it can actually backfire and harm you (energy level and vibrations mismatch). Kinda like GMO if your genetic and soul vibrations don't match your skill is temporary anyway and dangerous to others to have such ability used for personal gain.
 
I tend to be passive with respect to spiritual matters but try to be active in relation to normal life responsibilities which you can say is also “spiritual “. With spiritual matters I’ve noticed that just learning and reading about the various schools of thought is enough for me. Just knowing about it helps and I usually find myself contemplating and processing the information and putting it together for use. I don’t try to actively apply the spiritual stuff I read though I’ve wondered whether I should. But usually I noticed that over time I start behaving in ways that reflect the things I read and think about. It takes a long time sometimes but I’ve noticed that when I force the concept into my reality something goes wrong. Like the concept of being an obyvatel as described by gurdjieff.. my life history and personality does not exemplify what you would call an obyvatel to put it lightly. So when I read about the concept the natural inclination was to start acting like that as soon as possible but when I did I probably didn’t have a correct concept of what that means and the experiment went wrong. It’s only after contemplating the idea and what it means to me and how I should go about being an obyvatel that sits right with me that I’m now noticing thought and behavior patterns that reflect the idea but yeah I’m still nowhere close and having an inherently selfish and self absorbed personality it’s going to take a bit more time. Reading your post OP ive wondered if I could be more active in being an obyvatel and it’s somethigg by to think about but there is definitely the feeling of forcing something versus just letting it happen gradually. I’m definitely passive in my ways and need to learn to be more active but I’m applying the active principle to simple things like getting my diet and health in check and simple organization and self discipline and holding a simple job etc etc… boring stuff but it’s related to the “spiritual” stuff and if you’re familiar with this forum and the c’s you know how important things like that are.

I used to be into magic and occult and energy work and trippy stuff like that.. but I never practiced any of it. I just read about it. With investigating things of that nature Ive noticed that just reading about it and contemplating it out of pure curiosity shifts your perceptions over time anyways. As opposed to doing an actual ritual or whatever at this point to me at least it feels like forcibly extracting something out of your reality matrix which seems like it would be a fun or cool thing to be able to do but the problem is we don’t really know what else is going on behind the curtains and what sort of energetic backlash might be occurring in the background that you don’t know about.. even if you get real results. Doing these kinds of things on an expert level eventually leads to applying mostly STS principles. STO seems to be more about a calculated response based on knowledge wisdom and understanding that would result is the most beneficial outcome, whereas with magical practice you don’t really know what you’re doing.. at least most who do it I don’t think they really understand exactly what’s going on.. you’ve just been told if you do this then that will happen. When ai got into magic I was more fascinated by how and why it works and the metaphysical principles involved but realized that if I just contemplated the principles while I’m taking a walk or driving over a long period of time those principles just come alive through simple understandings and there was no need for elaborate ritual or anything like that.. like.. just applying the metaphysical aspects of hermetic principles into something mundane like diet research is way more fascinating to me than going down a rabbit hole of subjectivity.

Anyways that’s all I gotta say about this stuff. Thanks for reading.
 
Although I will say that I see some value in applying magical principles in subjective workings as long as it’s something you’re trying to change in yourself as opposed to changing something outside. I just would go about doing something like that in a totally different way than what the occult world prescribes. So that is something you can apply the active principle towards and I’ve thought about that but honestly at the end of the day it’s ultimately subjective and seems like a placebo effect of sorts so it’s not exactly my cup of tea right now. I’ve thought about getting back into music and learning to write poetry to heal some personal traumas and things like that but doing an elaborate ritual and psychodrama as prescribed in ritual magic texts seems like it wouldn’t work for me personally. The whole idea is to make an impact on the subconscious so it significantly shifts your perceptions.. in theory. It’s something I’ve thought about doing but am definitely skeptical about if it would have beneficial results
 
@Andrey thanks for your answer and I have to say the way you write and how I interpreted the vibe of your message, I feel we have some similarities in our makeup.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with most of what you wrote, especially the part about reading/studying something a lot and then just keeping it in your mind and the insights and integrations of the knowledge follow naturally.

I'm not familiar with the obyvatel concept but just yesterday I made a big book order from the Recommended Books post here on the forum so I have a some Gurdjieff and Ouspensky coming my way.

I also don't feel any kind of need to engage in specific rituals to imprint energetically my wishes into the Universe. I do feel though we are quite lacking in our knowledge about how rituals and the like works. Think about how many "rituals" we perform on a daily basis and the underlying energy we are interacting with. I don't know much about 'egregores' and thought-forms but if you imagine that a lot of the ritualistic behaviors we engage in would have a certain "thought-form" attached to it, how powerful this thought-form would be (because of the amount of people feeding it). This kind of ties into some kind of archetypal energies I suppose. Some examples would be "the morning coffee", "brushing your teeth", "driving to work" etc. We engage in so many mini-rituals during the day, I think it would benefit us greatly to stay more present in these moments, because I believe these are the moments where we are mostly 100% mechanical beings. I don't know if my point came across from this, or if there was even supposed to be a point :D

Also the hermetic principles is something I enjoy trying to apply to the mundane!

Why do you think doing energetic work/magic on an expert level leads to STS tendencies? Maybe "magic" has gotten a bit of a reputation, but what I'm more interested in (as I think you also) is the more underlying metaphysical principles at work. I think we have the 'option' to approach this kind of work from a so to speak neutral angle; as in free from any of the dogma or rituals attached on top of many of the esoteric teachings. Ultimately everything is a movement of ENERGY, and if we can learn to be aware of it and consciously direct it to help ourselves and others I see that as something worth pursuing.

@Curious Beagle I agree with that the "magical" aspects do follow naturally. In fact I believe we are being magical every moment of every day, just not aware of it. So like you say, when we work on the lower, we purify it and break and see through the limits that have been set in place (for many reasons) and become aware of what has always been there.

@Pashalis Thanks for the heads up. I haven't done psychedelics since a few years now. I do smoke weed occasionally and always with the utmost respect, since the weed-high for me is on par with psychedelics most of the times I partake. Right now I feel that I want to stay sober for a while since after joining the forum here and the new information I've been presented with I do feel a very subtle and hard to pinpoint change within me, almost like some faint memory of I don't even know what has been activated and I want to explore this mystery in the clearest way possible (aka sober).
 
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