The eidos!

W

webwizard09

Guest
Um, just a bit of an obscure thing, but as I was reading the wave series (I'm only on part 2), I came to thinking that what the C's were saying sounded a lot like the eidos, or Plato's theory of forms. Sorry if this isn't the right place to post.
 

Mike

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
webwizard09,

The specific quote you are referencing from the Wave and a summary of Plato's theory of forms would help to compare the two and help others see what you are talking about.
 
W

webwizard09

Guest
Mike,

Certainly. Plato splits up existence into two realms: the material realm and the transcendent realm of forms. We perceive a different world, with different objects, through our mind than we do through the senses. It is the material world, perceived through the senses, that is changing. It is the realm of forms, perceived through the mind, that is permanent and immutable. A form is an abstract property or quality. Take any property of an object; separate it from that object and consider it by itself, and you are contemplating a form. For example, if you separate the roundness of a basketball from its color, its weight, etc. and consider just roundness by itself, you are thinking of the from of roundness. Plato held that this property existed apart from the basketball, in a different mode of existence than the basketball. The form is not just the idea of roundness you have in your mind. It exists independently of the basketball and independently of whether someone thinks of it. All round objects, not just this basketball, participate or copy this same form of roundness.

In order to see exactly what a form is and how it differs from a material object, we need to look at the first two of the properties that characterize the forms. The forms are transcendent. This means that they do not exist in space and time. A material object, a basketball, exists at a particular place at a particular time. A form, roundness, does not exist at any place or time. The forms exist, or subsist, in a different way. This is especially important because it explains why the forms are unchanging. A form such as roundness will never change; it does not even exist in time. It is the same at all times or places in which it might be instantiated. A form does not exist in space in that it can be instantiated in many places at once and need not be instantiated anywhere in order for the form to exist. The form of roundness can be found in many particular spatial locations, and even if all round objects were destroyed, the property of roundness would still exist.

The forms are also pure. This means that they are pure properties separated from all other properties. A material object, such as a basketball, has many properties: roundness, ballness, orangeness, elasticity, etc. These are all put together to make up this individual basketball. A form is just one of these properties, existing by itself apart from space and time. Roundness is just pure roundness, without any other properties mixed in. The forms differ from material objects, then, in that they are transcendent and pure, while material objects are complex conglomerations of properties located in space and time.

To see how forms are related to material objects, we need to look at the other four properties that characterized the forms. The forms are the archetypes or perfect models for all of the properties that are present in material objects. The forms are the perfect examples of the properties they instantiate. The material world is really similar to the more real world of forms. The form of roundness, for example, is the perfect model of roundness. All round material objects are merely copies or imitations of this most real form. Thus it is the forms that are ultimately real. Material objects are images or copies of these more real objects. The cave metaphor illustrates these properties of the forms well. The shadows on the wall represent material objects, while the real objects passing before the fire are the forms.

In virtue of the fact that all objects in this world are copies of the forms, the forms are the causes of all that exists in this world. In general, whenever you want to explain why something is the way that it is, you point to some properties that the object has. That is, you explain what forms the object is a copy of. The forms are causes in two closely related ways: (1) The forms are the causes of all our knowledge of all objects. The forms contribute all order and intelligibility to objects. Since we can only know something insofar as it has some order or form, the forms are the source of the intelligibility of all material objects. (2) The forms are also the cause of the existence of all objects. Things are only said to exist insofar as they have order or structure or form. Hence, the forms are the causes of the existence of all objects as well as of their intelligibility. Plato uses the sun metaphor to explain how the forms in general, and the form of the Good in particular, are causes in these tow ways. Just as the sun gives light which allows us to see objects, the form of the Good provides order and intelligibility to allow us to know objects. Just as the sun provides the energy for the nourishment and growth of all living things, so the form of the Good provides the order and structure which is the source of the existence of all things.

The forms are also systematically interconnected. They are connected to each other and to material objects in an intricate system that reflects both the way they flow down from the form of the good and the process that we must go through in working our way up to knowledge of the forms. The forms fit together with each other and material objects in a hierarchical system, whose structure is reflected in the dialectic process one goes through to gain knowledge of the forms. Dialectic involves putting together two subjective points of view to form a more objective concept. So the forms flow down form of the Good going from most general, abstract, and objective (the Good) to most particular and subjective. All particular forms are subsumed under more general forms, and all forms are finally subsumed under the form of the Good. In dialectic, we work in the opposite direction and start from subjective concepts of the more particular things and work our way towards more objective concepts of the general, abstract forms. The divided line represents the systematic interconnectedness of the forms and how the advance of our knowledge reflects this system. The structure of the relationships between forms and material objects might be represented in a diagram such as this, which is merely an expanded version of the divided line set on its end:

Wave Quotes - at end of each quote will attempt to restore relevance. (will try to find more, only on part 4)

From part 2.

"Q: (Frank) Our thoughts or your thoughts?

A: Not correct concept.

Q: (L) What is the correct concept?

A: All is just lessons. Thoughts unify all reality in existence and are all shared.

Q: (Susy) You travel on a wave of energy created by all thought forms?

A: Thought forms are all that exists!"

The forms are the ultimately real entities, not material objects. All material objects are copies or images of some collection of forms; their reality comes only from the forms.

Excerpt from Transient Passengers article

"Now, in the excerpts below, even though I am still attempting to understand things and ask questions in a linear way, we begin to move into a new conceptual realm; we begin to experience a higher level of abstraction:

Q: (L) Okay, who created the Cassiopaeans?
A: Your super ancient spiritual ancestors.
Q: (L) Do these beings have a name? [as in a defined "group."]
A: No.
Q: (L) What are they called?
A: Transient passengers.

Q: (L) Now you mentioned the creators of your group as the super ancient ancestors called the transient passengers, what is the meaning of this term and who are these beings?
A: Transient passengers are not beings. Transient Passengers are unified thought form.
Q: (L) Why are they called transient passengers?
A: Because they transit all forms of reality. And they spring forth from the Unified form of existence."

The forms are the causes of all things. (1) They provide the explanation of why any thing is the way it is, and (2) they are the source or origin of the being of all things.
The forms are archetypes; that is, they are perfect examples of the property that they exemplify. The forms are the perfect models upon which all material objects are based.

I will try to find more; when (if) found, will add on to post.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
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Actually, that's pretty much the conclusion I came to myself and I address the subject directly in Secret History, quoting Plato.
 
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