The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient times


The Force is Strong With This One

by János Kalmár

1480 - MARCIO GALOTTI, a humanist in the court of King Mátyás Corvinus stated with amazement: “The Hungarians may be aristocrats or peasants but they all use the same language.”

1609 - POLANUS AMANDUS, the humanist writer who lived in Basle, when Albert Molnár’s “Hungarian Grammar” was published, wrote: “There were some who doubted that the unbridled Hungarian language had any rules but you, in your outstanding work, have really disproved them.”

1790 - JOHANN GOTTFRIED HERDER acknowledged that the Hungarian language is a great treasure: „Is there anything more dear to the people than their own language? Their whole way of thinking lies in their language, their past and their history, their beliefs, and the basis of their whole life, their whole heart and soul.”

1817 - CARDINAL GIUSEPPE MEZZOFANTI, who understood 58 languages and spoke, among many of them, four dialects of Hungarian, greeted the Hungarian bailiff, József, in Bologna with a very spirited Hungarian speech. It was he who said to the Czech linguist, ÁGOSTON FRANKL: “Do you know which language is equal to Latin and Greek in its structure and rhythmic harmony? It is the Hungarian language. I am familiar with the new Hungarian poets, whose verses are completely mesmerizing. Let us watch the future, for the poetic genius will have a sudden upswing, which will prove my statement to be true. It seem as if the Hungarians themselves do not realize what a treasure is hidden in their language.” Cardinal Mezzofanti was made an honorary member of the Hungarian Academy of Science in 1832.

1820 - JAKOB GRIMM established the rules for sound progression and was the first to write a German Grammar. He stated that the Hungarian language is logical, has a perfect structure and surpasses every other language.

1830 - SIR JOHN BOWRING, English traveler and writer, visited Hungary and published an anthology in English of the work of Hungarian writers and poets. „The Hungarian language goes far back. It developed in a very peculiar manner and its structure reaches back to times when most of the now spoken European languages did not even exist. It is a language which developed steadily and firmly in itself, and in which there are logic and mathematics with the adaptability and malleability of strength and chords. The Englishman should be proud that his language indicates an epic of human history. One can show forth its origin; and all layers can be distinguished in it, which gathered together during contacts with different nations. Whereas the Hungarian language is like a rubble-stone, consisting of only one piece, on which the storms of time left not a scratch. It's not a calendar that adjusts to the changes of the ages. It needs no one, it doesn't borrow, does no huckstering, and doesn't give or take from anyone. This language is the oldest and most glorious monument of national sovereignty and mental independence. What scholars cannot solve, they ignore. In philology it's the same way as in archeology. The floors of the old Egyptian temples, which were made out of only one rock, can't be explained. No one knows where they came from, or from which mountain the wondrous mass was taken. How they were transported and lifted to the top of the temples. The genuineness of the Hungarian language is a phenomenon much more wondrous than this.”

1840 - WILHELM SCHOTT, an outstanding German scientist: “ In the Hungarian language there is a fresh, childish, natural view and it cannot but be suspected that there is the possibility of development hidden in it like a bud. It contains many beautiful soft consonants and its vowels are more clearly pronounced than in German. It can be used for short statements and also for powerful oratory, in short, every type of prose. It is built on matching vowel sounds, pleasing rhymes, and its richness and resounding tones are well suited for poetry. This is demonstrated in every branch of poetry.”

1840 - N. ERBESBERG, a world famous professor from Vienna: “The structure of the Hungarian language is such that it appears that linguists could have created it with the purpose of incorporating in it every rule, conciseness, melody and clarity and besides all this it avoided any commonness, difficulty in pronunciation and irregularities.”

1848 - N. SIMPSON: “Letters from the Banks of the Danube.” In this series of articles, he wrote about the Hungarian language in the exciting days of March, (during the 1848 Hungarian Freedom Fight against the Hapsburgs). “The Hungarian language is very poetic, rich and spirited, . . . it is full of enthusiasm and strength and is suited to all kinds of poetical work. It is strong and yet gentle and very pleasing in sound. It is melodic and its expression is clear.”

1857 - MÁTYÁS FLÓRIÁN, linguist and a member of the Hungarian Academy of Science, who was in correspondence with OPPERT, stated: “I gained from Oppert the treasure of the words (Sumerian) and called his attention to the fact that they resembled the words of the ancient Hungarian language.”

1860 - JULES OPPERT emphasized the relationship of the Sumerian and Hungarian languages.

1860 - The German linguists and professors at the Congress of Kiel announced that the only correct name for Mesopotamia’s Turanian ancient populace was “Sumerian”.

1870 - ARCHIBALD SAYCE, Professor of Oriental Studies in Oxford, deciphered the first Sumerian one language text and gave a linguistic analysis of the language. He used comparative linguistics to study different branches of the language. In the course of his research, he examined the relationship of the languages of the entire Turanian language family with the Sumerian language. He found the closest relationship to Sumerian in the Hungarian and Basque languages. He went to Hungary to learn the Hungarian language and also found Hungarian to be the most useful language to read the Sumerian language.

1870 - FRANÇOIS C. LENORMAND, the amazingly talented French linguist, stated: “The Sumerian language, not only in its vocabulary but also in its structure, is a Turanian language.” It is obvious that his work was very thorough because he studied the Hungarian historical phonetic linguistics and he studied the Halotti Beszéd, the Legend of St. Margaret and the Bible of the Hungarian Hussites.

1873 - LENORMAND formulated the first Sumerian Grammar and also made a thorough comparative study of the grammar and vocabulary of the Ural-Altaic languages. By so doing, he proved the relationship between the Ural-Altaic languages and Sumerian.

1873 - EDOUARD SAYOUS, a French historian proved the linguistic comparisons of Lenormand. In 1869 and 1896, he was in Hungary and he learned Hungarian. In acknowledgement of his work, he was made a member of the Hungarian Kisfaludy Literary Guild.

1875 - FRANÇOIS C. LENORMAND strongly advocated that the language that discovered writing was most closely related to Hungarian. Therefore he traveled again to Hungary to learn the language more thoroughly. In his book “The Ancient Language of the Chaldeans and the Turanian Languages” from phonetics to the noun suffixes, almost entirely relying on the logic and pronunciation of the Hungarian language, he continued his research into the comparison between the Sumerian and the Turanian languages. He found that the Sumerian phonetic rules were based on the Hungarian.

1875 - HEINRICH GELZER, a Swiss linguist, in an article entitled: Das Ausland, stated that the Sumerian noun and verb suffixes were identical to those of the Turanian languages.

1875 - OSCAR PESCHEL, a German ethnographer, professor at the University of Leipzig, wrote: “The most ancient cuneiform writing was developed in the city of Ur, the so-called Sumerian-Akkadian writing. This ancient people was called Turanian.”

1876 - DOPHUS RUGE, a German scholar, in his work: Die Turanien in Chaldäe, stated: “Now, among the Turanian peoples, a people of first-class culture has appeared – the Sumerians.”

1879 - ZSÓFIA TORMA, archeologist and researcher, on the encouragement of Floris Rómer, in 1875, began archeological excavations on the banks of the Maros River in Tordos and its vicinity and found 10,387 artifacts with Sumerian characters. Among the 4,500 year-old ceramic shards, she found four with Szekler runic script. She suggested the possibility that the writings on the Tordos finds were connected to the Assyrian and Babylonian writings. She came to the conclusion that the ancient people of Babylon belonged to the Sumerian-Akkadian people who were a Turanian people.

1881 - ERNEST DE SARZEC, a French researcher, discovered LAGAS, the first Sumerian city. In his excavations he discovered 40,000 clay tablets with cuneiform characters.

1883 - Dr. ÁGOSTON HALÁSZ, Bishop of Kassa, in his study: Legújabb ősnyelv (The Newest Ancient Language) clearly follows the spread of human civilization from Sumer to Assyria, to the Hittite Empire and then to Greece. His conclusion was that the first pioneers in city dwelling were the Sumerians, who were identical to the Hungarians.

1887 - Dr. SÁNDOR GIESSWEIN, a canon and linguist, to prove the Sumerian-Hungarian relationship, used anthropological examples and a thorough comparative study of the grammar of the two languages.

1. He demonstrated the similarity between the flexional endings of the Sumerian personal pronouns and the Hungarian objective conjugation.

2. Both languages are agglutinative.

3. The prepositional endings and affixes, in Sumerian and in the Ural-Altaic languages are eroded nouns.

4. The connection between the Sumerian and Ural-Altaic languages is that the simple suffix can express the noun-relationship.

5. A common characteristic of these languages is the use of the possessive suffix, to which additional connected suffixes can be added.

6. Obviously, the close relationship of more possessive suffixes in the Sumerian and Hungarian languages can be observed.

1896 - Dr. K. A. HERMANN, Estonian researcher in the Russian Oriental Archeology Congress, in Riga, stated: “On the basis of linguistic conformity to rules and identity, my opinion is that the Sumerian language is related to the Ural-Altaic languages.”

1900 - Dr. GYULA FERENCZY, University professor, in his work: A szumirok nemzetiségi és nyelvi hovatartozása (Where the Sumerian People and Language Belong), he stated the following: “From the facts that we already know, there is no doubt that the Sumerians are an ancient branch of the Turanian people.”

1913 - JÁNOS GALGÓCZY, linguist, pointed out that both Hungarian and Sumerian possess the special subjective and objective conjugation.

1916 - Dr. ZSIGMOND VARGA spoke fourteen languages. In 1920, on the basis of his book Ötezer év távlatából (From a Distance of Five Thousand Years), the Hungarian Academy of Science acknowledged the relationship between the Sumerian and the Ural-Altaic languages.

1926 - JÓZSEF ACZÉL, linguist, in his book Szittya-görög eredetünk (Our Scythian-Greek Origins), stated:


“The Hungarian Grammar and three thousand root words are identical to the Hellenic Greek.”

“The Szekler and Scythian and ancient Hellenic scripts are identical.”

“Some of the words, when they are written, are surprisingly similar (read from right to left).”

It is a unique linguistic phenomenon that, in the whole world, apart from the classical Latin and Ancient Greek languages, only in Hungarian can poems be written in classical hexameter.

“In some of the Hungarian folk songs, the melody is so old that the Scythians may even have sung them accompanied by their ‘musikos.’”

1927 - JULES ROMAINS, one of the greatest poets of modern France, when he visited Hungary, stated: “Because I did not understand the Hungarian language, I tried with all my strength to feel it. I felt that it was full of power; I know no other language that appears so masculine. It is a passionate masculine language.”

1932 - EDGAR CLEMENT, German linguist, was so impressed by the musicality of the language that he learned Hungarian. According to him, the Hungarian language had a magical strength, which reflected a deep spirituality and only the highest ranking languages, especially the old classical languages could match up to it.

1939 - GÉZA BÁRCZY, member of the Hungarian Academy of Science, discovered the 5000 year-old Sumerian suffixes and proved that they were identical to the Hungarian suffixes.

1940 - Sir LEONARD WOOLLEY, English archeologist and linguist, excavated the Sumerian city, Ur of the Chaldees. He found 400,000 clay tablets, which were covered with linguistic material. He made a glossary and deciphered a large number of texts for the Institutum Biblicum in Rome, among them a six volume Sumerisches Lexicon, in which he deciphered 4,000 words.

1943 - BÁLINT HÓMAN, historian: “According to our present knowledge, the Sumerian language belongs to the Caucasian Japhet language family. In the future, when we analyze the ancient Hungarian words of Caucasian and unknown origin, we should not disregard the Sumerian and Huttite-Hurrite language remains.

1948 - RENÉ LABAT, Director of Studies at the École des Hautes-Études in Paris, developed a dictionary of Cuneiform signs that were numbered, for the use of his students.

1953 - ANTON DEIMEL S. J., Principal of the Institutum Biblicum in Rome and editor of the Sumerisches Lexicon, in the letter which he wrote to Dr. Ida Bobula, stated: “I have not the slightest qualm about accepting the Hungarian-Sumerian relationship.”

1962 - ÁRPÁD ORBÁN, researcher who followed the theory of probability introduced by Jószef Aczél, and developed the rules for the dating of the word relationships.

1963 - VIKTOR PADÁNYI, historian, in his book entitled Dentumagyaria, examined the Sumerian-Hungarian vocabulary and, on the basis of phonetics and meaning, stated: “The spirit of the Sumerian and Hungarian languages, their structure and grammar are almost identical and, by this same measure, they differ from other languages.”

1966 - JÁNOS HARMATTA, historian and academician, stated that, in 1961, N. Vlassa, an archeologist from Kolozsvár, discovered in Tatarlaka one round and one rectangular clay tablet, on which the signs could be easily deciphered with the help of Sumerian pictograms which they resembled.

1968 - ANDRÁS ZAKAR, linguist and researcher in cultural history, demonstrated the language development on the basis of dating methods, and showed that in the Hungarian language, after 5000 years, out of one hundred words, 63 words were Sumerian and 12 Akkadian. This shows not only relationship but also direct descent. The newest scientific methods prove that the Sumerian-Hungarian linguistic analyses are based on certain historical and archeological evidence.

1970 - IDA BOBULA, philosopher and historian, a researcher who spoke seven languages fluently, in her books Sumir rokonság (Sumerian Relationship) and A magyar nemzet eredete (The origin of the Hungarian People), and also in A 2000 magyar név sumir eredete (The Sumerian Origin of 2000 Hungarian Names) demonstrated that a majority of Hungarian names can be understood with the help of the Sumerian dictionary. In her analyses, she states that the returning Magyars brought with them a Scythian language, developed in Sumer.

1976 - ADORJÁN MAGYAR: “The majority of the European peoples learned to read and write only after they were converted to Christianity, while the Magyars lost their own runic script after their conversion because the Church regarded it as pagan.”

1976 - ELEMÉR NOVOTNY, linguistic researcher, in his book Sumir nyelv = Magyar nyelv, (Sumerian Language = Hungarian Language) published in Switzerland in 1976, convincingly proved that that a large part of the Sumerian vocabulary was identical to Hungarian. He presented the cuneiform tables of RENÉ LABAT, in which 13 Sumerian cuneiform signs could be understood and were identical to the Szekler runic script.

1976 - DÉNES OSETZKY, researcher and engineer, came to the conclusion that: “Inasmuch as the Sumerian language elements in the Hungarian language are the result of the connections between the two peoples, the initial influence could be only such a group which anthropologically belonged to the ethnic type of the Homecoming Magyars.

1976 - FERENC BADINY-JÓS, university professor, stated that the total number of cuneiform signs was approximately 4,800, but this did not include the words created from the cuneiform signs. He proved the Sumerian-Hungarian language identity with help of the 6000 year-old cuneiform tablets. He explained that the name of the Hungarians, HUN-GAR, just as the Asian name HUN, has been known for 5000 years and the name of the MAH-GAR people is now known as Sumerian.

1977 - SÁNDOR CSŐKE, linguist, according to his final conclusions about the Hungarian language:

a) It is an original ancient language.

b) Its structure is entirely Hungarian.

c) Its vocabulary is 95% Hungarian.

1977 - KÁLMÁN GOSZTONYI, professor at the St. Michael’s College in Paris, with the financial support of the French government, published his book: Összehasonlító szumir nyelvtan, (Comparative Sumerian Grammar) and stated that from 53 Sumerian grammatical characteristics, 51 are identical to the Hungarian, for example:

a) The adjective is singular, the noun is plural e.g. jó emberek

b) The interrogative pronouns and numerals can have a possessive suffix. E.g. Mi-d van? Az én tíz-em.

c) Nouns may be in singular or plural. E.g. kéz, kezek. Juh, juhok.

d) The same word can indicate both genders. E.g. ember, gyermek, testvér

e) An independent verb can create a sentence by itself. E.g. Fáj.

Besides the grammar, he presented, from the collection of cuneiform signs of Labat, Árpád Orbán’s new methods of dating and, with this, he examined 93 Sumerian words.

1980 - BÉLA OLÁH, an independent researcher, in his book: Édes magyar nyelvünk szumir eredete,(The Sumerian Origin of our Sweet Hungarian Language) states the following identities:


The Hungarian vowels and consonants are completely identical to the Sumerian.

Vowel harmony is present in both languages.

Words may not begin with two consonants.

Both languages are agglutinative.

They do not distinguish gender.

The Hungarian verbal suffixes are more developed than the Sumerian.

1988 - SÁNDOR FORRAI, professor and expert in scripts, in the collection of ceramic shards in the Museum of Kolozsvár, in which Zsófia Torma recognized four Szekler runic characters, found eight more and stated that, in Tatarlaka, N. Vlassa in 1961, excavated a round clay amulet, on which there were four segments containing script. Among the 10 characters, six of them were clearly recognizable as Magyar runic script and two more show a close resemblance. He traces the origin of the Magyar runic script to the writings found in Mesopotamia, which are 3,500 years old. It is not accidental that the linear script, developed from the pictographs, remained in the Hungarian script as runic script and has survived to the present, in spite of the fact that, in the course of a thousand years, from the 34 runic letters, the Hungarians had to adapt to the 24 Latin letters, which made it very difficult to express the double consonants.

1989 - ISTVÁN ERDÉLYI, archeologist, in his book, Sumir rokonság (Sumerian Relationship), writes: “Among the Faculties of the Hungarian Universities, there should be a chair for Assyriology, which should also encompass Sumerology.”

1990 - JÁNOS MAKKAY, archeologist, in his study, A tartariai leletek (The Tartarian Finds) states that the attempts to understand and decipher the Sumerian words themselves verify the Jamdet Nasr connections.



Aczél József: Szittya-görög eredetünk, 1927

Badiny-Jós Ferenc: Mah-gar a magyar, 1976

Berzseny Dániel: A magyar nyelv eredetiségéről, 1825

Bobula Ida: A sumir-magyar rokonság kérdése, 1961

Bobula Ida: Kétezer magyar név sumir eredete, 1970

Csobánczi Elemér: Magyar nyelv és ősmagyar írás

Erdélyi István: Sumir rokonság? 1989

Érdy Miklós: A sumir-ural-altai-magyar rokonság kutatásának története, 1974

Forrai Sándor: Az írás bölcsője és a magyar rovásírás, 1988

Gosztonyi Kálmán: Összehasonlító szumir nyelvtan, 1977

Hajdú Péter: Finn-ugor népek és nyelvek, 1962

Komoróczy Géza: Sumir a magyar? 1979

Lotz János: Mit mondanak nyelvünkről a külföldiek? 1931

Labat, René: A Sumér és Akkad ékjelekról, 1976

Magyar Adorján: A magyar nyelv

Makkay János: A tartariai leletek, 1990

Molnár Erik: A magyar népőstörténete, 1953

Novotny Elemér: Szumir nyelv=magyar nyelv, 1976

Oláh Béla: Édes magyar nyelvünk szumir eredete,1980

Osetzky Dénes: A szumir-magyar származású elmélet esélyei, 1976

Padányi Viktor: Dentumagyaria, 1963

Radics Géza: Eredetünk és őshazánk, 1988

Szili István: A finn-ugor őstörténetírás hiányosságairól, 1977

Zakar András: A sumir nyelvről, 1975

N. Zsufa Sándor: A magyar nyelv nyelvrokonságai, 1942


The Force is Strong With This One
addendum: interesting fact about the Hungarian (native name: Magyar) Language

Of the 56 particularities of the Sumerian grammar, 53 figure in the Magyar Language. Researchers at Université Paris-Sorbonne have concluded that, of today's world languages, Magyar is the only language that has kept 68% of its ancient etymons, that is, the original elements of humanity's primeval language. For comparison, it should be mentioned that this retention is:
o 4% in the English Language;
o 5% in Latin;
o 12% in Tibetan;
o 26% in Ancient Turkish.

The Magyar Language can be called the primeval language. This is why Magyar words are found in every language of the world. But we did not borrow these words: Rather, since ours is Mankind's most ancient language, it is clear that every other language became an heir to this inheritance.


FOTCM Member
Interesting connection between Sumerian and Hungarian.

The Sumerians, as you must know, sort of "appeared" in Mesopotamia around 4000 BC and no one knows where they came from. They referred to themselves as "the black headed people" and claimed that they were created to be slaves of the gods. Their social structure was organized as city-states which supported a central temple and priesthood. There was a strong class structure: Priests, warriors (whose job it was to protect the priests and temple), craftsmen, peasants. The main activity of the entire social structure seems to have revolved around propitiating the gods so as to prevent calamity.

There are a number of theories of their origins, but no agreement. One expert thinks they came from Tibet, one from central Asia, but most think they came from the South. One "south" theory is that they came from the Indus valley, another from modern Bahrain. There are some similarities between Sumerian and the Tibetan language.

The Sumerian appeared as a fully developed society with a technology and organization that was different from the other societies of the time. Modern, technological, hierarchical civilization seems to have stemmed from this alien and mysterious people. It is said that Communism is not a new and progressive structure of society but rather basically the same sort of society that the Sumerians created with a priesthood controlling the society and its economy five thousand years ago.

The following excerpts from "Physical anthropology and the “Sumerian problem” by Arkadiusz Soltysiak illustrate some of the modern discourse on the problem:

Beno Landsberger introduced new linguistic arguments to the debate. In his
opinion many names of important Sumerian cities as well as many technical
terms in Sumerian were borrowed from another language or languages, the
languages of Mesopotamia’s original inhabitants, which had been forgotten
before the invention of writing. Landsberger tentatively defined two such
substratum languages, and called them Proto-Euphratean and Proto-Tigridian
(Landsberger 1944; 1945; cf. Gibson 1972:8; Potts 1997:46; Rubio 1999:2).

According to Gelb it is even uncertain that the
Sumerians invented the writing system, because the earliest pictographic tablets
from Uruk may be read also in other languages (1960:263–265).

Landsberger’s theory of pre-Sumerian substratum in Sumerian language
has been recently rejected by G. Rubio who examined the available data and
concluded that all terms interpreted as the evidence of a substratum language
were gradually adopted by the Sumerians together with some technical
innovations in a process of diffusion, and not inherited from any hypothetical
coherent language (Rubio 1999:11). Similar conclusion has been drawn by
G. Gragg on a more general base (1995:2177). This situation of the Sumerian
language may be compared with the present-day adoption of many English
terms concerning computer technologies by other languages: in that case
nobody would claim that such an in‚uence points at English as the substratum
of other languages.


Another way of reasoning has been presented by Samuel Kramer. This
author has also agreed with Speiser that the Sumerians were not the aboriginal
inhabitants of Mesopotamia and that they had come not long before the Late
Uruk period (1948:156–157). In his opinion the reminiscences of their early
history had been preserved in the tales of Sumerian legendary kings, Gilgamesh,
Enmerkar, and Lugalbanda. Kramer has struck upon the idea that the invasion
of barbarous tribes to more civilised country is often recorded in heroic age epics
– as known from the Greek, Germanic, and Aryan traditions (1948:159). If the
Sumerians produced such kind of literature, it meant for Kramer, that originally
they must have been the barbarians who invaded the Mesopotamia. In Kramer’s
reconstruction Mesopotamia was first settled by immigrants from Iran who
had painted their pottery. Somewhat later they mixed with the Semites who
came from the west. Both ethnic groups created a civilisation, which expanded
and eventually came into contact with early Sumerians, the nomadic tribes
from Transcaucasia or Transcaspia. These Sumerians were initially defeated by
the Mesopotamians, but later they learned the more advanced art of war and
finally conquered Mesopotamia. After the “heroic age”, the time of regress
and perturbations, the Sumerians restored the civilisation, established their
cities, invented the cuneiform script, and eventually were defeated by other
barbarians, the Aryan tribes (1948:160–163).


Much better grounded in actual archaeological evidence was the
reconstruction proposed by Joan Oates who has noticed the cultural continuity
from the beginning of Ubaid period until the times when the Sumerians
definitely dominated in the southern Mesopotamia (Oates 1960:33–34; cf. Potts
1997:47). There was not only the continuity in the pottery style, but also the
unbroken sequence of temples in Eridu and no traces of any invasion have
been found in any excavated sites from the Ubaid and Uruk periods. It is likely
that the Late Neolithic and Early Chalcolithic Mesopotamian population was
not homogenous – as in later times when many ethnic groups shared the same
way of life – but there is not a single piece of evidence that any migration had
occured in that period and also no proof that the Mesopotamian civilisation
had been created by a population of Iranian origins (Oates 1960:34–37). Joan
Oates’ scepticism gradually prevailed and the “Sumerian problem” started
to be recognised as insoluble (cf. Rubio 1999:1).

In the story of the “Sumerian problem” the linguistic arguments were
most intensively discussed and sometimes the filologists ignored in their
speculations the archaeological and historical background. However, also
physical anthropology contributed to the debate, especially to the idea of alleged
round-headed “Sumerian race”, and to the theory about the Sumerians’ Indian
origins. It is quite evident that this first motif originated in the misunderstanding
between some physical anthropologists who treated conventional iconography
as comparable with the osteological data, and philologists who
enthousiastically accepted the discrepancy between skulls and art representations
as “scientific” proof of the small contribution of the “Sumerian race” to the
Mesopotamian population. The hypothesis of Indian origins was relatively
better grounded, although no author tested it in proper way and it still remains
only a speculation.
Despite the fact that some scholars have tried to distinguish between Semites and Sumerians, it is possible that it is not so clear-cut an issue. Many things in the Hebrew Bible were taken over almost word for word, from the Sumerians so one might even conjecture that the Sumerians (or some of them?) "turned into" Hebrews at some point.


The Force is Strong With This One
I start my answer with the repeat of the first part of the mentioned quote:

"Beno Landsberger introduced new linguistic arguments to the debate. In his opinion many names of important Sumerian cities as well as many technical
terms in Sumerian were borrowed from another language or languages, the languages of Mesopotamia’s original inhabitants, which had been forgotten
before the invention of writing. Landsberger tentatively defined two such substratum languages, and called them Proto-Euphratean and Proto-Tigridian
(Landsberger 1944; 1945; cf. Gibson 1972:8; Potts 1997:46; Rubio 1999:2).
According to Gelb it is even uncertain that the Sumerians invented the writing system, because the earliest pictographic tablets
from Uruk may be read also in other languages (1960:263–265)."

And I follow - as a first half of my answer - with another quote (copied out from another freshly started thread in the History part of the Forum):

"The Székely-Magyar runic writing is nearly identical to the ancient sumerian writing of Mesopotamia. Despite all efforts to "Finn-ugor-ize" or "Turk-ize" us, the fact remains that the official position of the science of linguistics is that the origin of 60% of the Magyar language is unknown. Ours is the only language that describes its environment in subsistence, in experience. The English Language does not "anglicize," the French Language does not "francisize" [to explain]. Only the Magyar Language "Magyar-izes," that is, "Magyaráz" [explains](!). For example, the two meanings of the word "hegy" [hill, point] refer to the same shape. This descriptive language-imagery does not exist in other languages. Our complete vocabulary consists of more than two million words(!).
The abundance of archaeological finds proves that, of the linguistic evidence found so far, artifacts bearing Magyar inscriptions are the oldest. For example, the Tatárlakai troves, the 7,000 year old tablets written in runic writing–which are 1,500 years older than the oldest clay tablets found so far in Mesopotamia–can be deciphered with Magyar runic reading skills. Based on this fact, the French Académie des Sciences declares that the cradle of Mankind, and human aptness for writing and culture, originated not in Mesopotamia, but rather in Erdély, [Southeast Carpathian Basin], Europe. Later, the Paris International Oriental Congress adopted this stance, generating a true world sensation. Sadly, though typically the (in name only) Hungarian media, in a massive, united and truly spirited fashion, has shunned this world sensation with its hysterical, Earth-shattering silence.
During excavations conducted in the Tigris and Euphrates valleys, statuettes of animals literally came to light. These statuettes bear witness to the names of the sumerian people's animals–"racka" sheep, "puli" dogs, "kuvasz," "komondor" [canine breeds], "rideg" cattle [bovine breed]. All these words are hauntingly identical to the names of the Magyars' animals. Aside from us, Magyars, no one else in the world has such animals. Based on evidence from grave excavations, the Scythians have been proven to be the most ancient people on Earth, more ancient than the Egyptians. And our chronicles originate the Magyars from the Scythians.

* The pyramids discovered in today's Bosnia are 35,000 years old, and contain Székely runic inscriptions(!).
* Computerized comparative research supports the thesis that the basis of all of Eurasia's folk music can be found in Magyar folk music. "

My point is: the language we are speaking about - I mean the hungarian aka the magyar - is the remain of the original language what the sumerian slave-
race have learned after they had arrived into Mesopotamia. Again a repeat from your quoted article: "...terms in Sumerian were borrowed from another language
or languages, the languages of Mesopotamia’s original inhabitants, which had been forgotten before the invention of writing" In the time of Beno Landsberger the
above-mentioned tatárlaki finds and others hasnt been founded (e.g.: tatárlaki finds dated to the years of 1960s). So, we can add to Beno's claims our owns: the
invention of the writing before the sumerians traced back to the Carpathian Basin before the time of the sumerians. The writing what has adopted by the sumerians.
/And a note: the mentioned found within the bosnian pyramids isnt a fake: Nobody has been any idea about the nature of the founded runic scripts until some
hungarian linguistics has seen the scripts - by chance - and the suddently has been realised that the scripts are the same as the so-called szekely-kind-of runic
scripts what has been dated back as 7000+ years old in Transylvania. Linguistic experts has travelled to Bosnia to further studies, hungarian newspapers reported./

I myself has been surprised when I have read your book (The Secret History of the World) and I found the theory about the race before the sumerians (who
served stoically their gods) and about the theory (similar to Beno's or connected to it) that the sumerians only had learned the language of a previous human
population there. I surprised because many people in Hungary are writing about the ages when ancient hungarians/magyars from the Carpathian Basin has gone
to east-south east and there spent much time until another race pressed them out from there (the sumerians helped by their strange new gods) and after that
the magyars - very slowly - has came back to the Carpathian basin (the old birthplace). I even tought before that those ancient people - my ancestors - could be a kind of late cro-magnonians (they invented the original magyar/szekely runic script what later adopted and modified the race of people we know today as sumerians) and have been lived in Mesopotamia until the arrive to there the stoic sumer slave-race.
Ancient (predates the sumerian runes) magyar/szekely runic script hasnt a nice legend but reality.

Let me quote from the Book Presentation of Selected Studies in Hungarian History by László Botos (note: the book, edited by the Institute of Hungarian Studies, the result of the voluntary efforts of the editors, contributors and translators, appeared in August, 2008, in Budapest, published by the HUN-Idea Publishers, with the support of the World Federation of Hungarians) and I advice to you especially the last paragraph:

"We are not anyone’s inferior and, in fact, recognizing this, we can look anyone in the eyes with the knowledge that we are the descendants of the Scythian-Hun people, who at one time ruled all of Asia and we gave to the Indo-European peoples our many root-words, from which developed those languages which are much less sophisticated than the Hungarian language.
In 1849, the Finno-Ugric hypothesis was imposed upon us. This has never been proven, and, along with the rest of the world, we were encouraged to forget that we were Huns. In this way, we were taught to deny our origins and we were deprived of hope in the future. This was done in order to subjugate us once and for all. Unfortunately, if we consider what our people and country have to look forward to, we can see that this tactic almost succeeded. We also know that this country, whose history was written by its enemies, the Habsburgs and the other surrounding states, will disappear and the people and nation will become slaves.
History can be falsified in the interest of certain groups but we must not forget that this is the worst sin and there will be no mercy for those who have purposely altered the facts. The God of the Hungarians will not forget. Let us follow and trust in the tenets of our ancient faith. Let us live with love for one another, according to the ancient truths and then we will raise a Hungarian nation in which the people live and think as Hungarians and do not just speak the Hungarian language. Our ancestors dared to be Hungarians. What are we afraid of? Széchenyi said: „The Hungarian should love and search for his brother Hungarian.”
Let us forget the demeaning Finno-Ugric hypothesis, which states that we originate from a primitive people of the Tundra, and which has not yet been proven. In order to do this as a nation, we first have to be prepared individually to recognize and accept this huge change. It is not easy to give up what we learned in school and exchange it for new, unknown studies. This is why our task is so difficult. I have noticed many times that a well-educated lecturer, at the beginning of his lecture speaks of a change, a new awakening, but during his lecture he reverts to the old theories propagated by our enemies. The afore-mentioned primitive origins are not demeaning just because they are primitive (indeed, everything has a beginning) but because this theory of our primitive origins is advocated to the entire world, when it is definitively stated and propagated that the majority of our everyday words are borrowed from other peoples, and when no other theory is allowed to be researched.
There had to be some linguistic somersaults to make the idea accepted that these words were borrowed from the Slavic, Latin or German languages. Dr. Tibor Baráth writes: „In the Western World, in the last one-hundred years, there has been an enormous amount of slanderous propaganda. The first to propose and advertise this propaganda were the French and the Czechs, who were later joined by the Rumanians, Serbs and the English. All of them want to establish the conviction and strengthen it in the public opinion of the West, that the Hungarian people are late occupants of the Danube Basin, surrounded by the Carpathian Mountains, that they are a ’foreign body’ in the family of European nations, and for a thousand years, they have just caused trouble. Therefore they came up with the solution that it would be best to erase this nation, and if this is not possible, then to reduce its power to the lowest level . . . only then would there be peace in this part of the continent.” (Montreal, 1975)
The hypothesis of the Finno-Ugric origin, its history and linguistics, served this plan well, in the truncated state of Hungary and in the West. The actions of Hungarians in this area are excusable, for understandable reasons, but the actions of the Western Finno-Ugric scholars are incomprehensible: Who „forced” them to be the executioners of the Hungarian people?
Louis the Child, the King of the Franks, in 907, left instructions for his successors that „ The Hungarians must be annihilated:” We Hungarians should not be involved in our own annihilation.
Huge numbers of struggling Hungarians at home (in Hungary), influenced by the media and led astray by their studies in school, are still unaware of the results of the newest research in the true history of Hungary. Without this knowledge, they are not able to change the regime and thereby persuade the Hungarian Academy of Sciences to discard the Finno-Ugric hypothesis and teach in the interest of the Hungarians. Therefore it is our responsibility as Hungarians living outside the country to make the results of historical and genetic research known abroad and to influence the education of Hungarians at home.
This book, which we now present to you, with your help will complete this task. It is the result of the unselfish efforts of 29 Hungarian scholars, many of them researching abroad, and the generous support of the World Federation of Hungarians. The World Federation is itself struggling with financial difficulties because, on the suggestion of Sándor Csoóri, former Prime Minister Viktor Orban withdrew from this organization, the largest civil organization in the World, which binds together the Hungarian communities all over the world, the governmental financial support that it had enjoyed for many years.
This book leads the reader through many different eras, acquaints him with the connections between the Sumerian, Scythian, Hun, White Hun, Parthian, Avar and Magyar peoples and also presents the decipherment of the Egyptian hieroglyphs, with the aid of Hungarian. It also demonstrates the antiquity of the Magyar Runic Script, used by the first civilized people in the ages preceding the Greco-Roman civilization. It outlines the role of Hungarians as defenders of Europe against the Tartars and the Turks, proves the connections with the Huns and suggests that the Magyar-Huns were the original people of the Carpathian Basin who migrated out of that area thousands of years ago and returned to their ancient home as Magyars. "

And to close this current answer of mine I write here - mostlz from my memory, so sorry about the minor linguistic incompetencies - some additional words by famous internationally known people regarding the magyar/hungarian language:

- Grover S. Kranz american scientist: "The dating of the ancient hungarian/magyar language is very surprising. I personally think that this is the original language
from the stone age and it has predates even the start of the neolitis age languages... clearly, from all of the presently known languages the hungarian is the most ancient. "

- Ove Berglund swediss doctor and translator: "Today when I have knowledges about the structures of the language of humankind my opinion is this: the magyar
- the hungarian - language is the top-product of the logic/creativity of humanity"

- Ede Teller (the famous atomic scientist, born in Hungary) said the following in Paks near before his death (documented): " Let say, my new discovery is: There is only one true language and that is the hungarian".

- George Bernard Shaw (the writer of dramas) told in an interview (made with him by the CBC): "I can say with confidence - after I have studied the hungarian
language trough many years - that I could have created a far more precious and worthy literary work of my life If I had been the possibility to do it by hungarian.
I claim this simply because this strange, powerfull language is the most capable to write about the differences and details of the minor, secret human emotional nuances."


The Force is Strong With This One
more information about the incomparable merits of the hungarian language

Hello Mountain Crown,

Answer to you: yes, its a trope. There are the words of a man who has belief in God and who are very sad about the efforts of the various anti-magyars who constantly try to suppress, delete, annihilate the ancient hungarian ancestral traditions and to push into the oblivion the hungarian language’s merits. You can see the good intentions of the scoolar in his following words: “ …Let us follow and trust in the tenets of our ancient faith. Let us live with love for one another, according to the ancient truths and then we will raise a Hungarian nation in which the people live and think as Hungarians and do not just speak the Hungarian language. Our ancestors dared to be Hungarians. What are we afraid of? ”
(And yes, there are increasing anti-magyar forces here: zionists who want to claim Hungary as a kind of second – but with much more favorable environmental conditions – Palestina. I wont go into this issue here in this thread – you can find some more hint on this matter in an another thread by me).

Also, I would like to enrich here more the contents of this actual thread.
Laura, thanks again for your response! This is the second half of my answer to yours.

Let me copy into here a part of a quote (I found this before in one of your article on Cassiopaea, titled as The Beast and His Empire). The quote is from the book of a certain Bruce Schecter: it starts to focus on the jewish population in Hungary since the XIX. century and the end is about well-known hungarian people – including jews whose family mixed with hungarians - who has became verz famous on their respected fields of knowledge:
„ (…) Among the better known were Leo Szilard, who was the first person to understand how chain reactions can unleash the power of the atom; John von Neumann, inventor of the electronic computer and game theory; and Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb. Less well known outside the world of science but equally influential were Theodor von Karman, the father of supersonic flight; George de Hevesy who received a Nobel Prize for his invention of the technique of using radioactive tracers that has had a revolutionary impact on virtually every field of science; and Eugene Wigner, whose exploration of the foundations of quantum mechanics earned him a Nobel Prize.
The list of the great Hungarian scientists could be extended almost indefinitely, but even outside the sciences the prominence of Hungarians is extraordinary. In music it would include the conductors Georg Solti, George Szell, Fritz Reiner, Antal Dorati, and Eugene Ormandy, and the composers Bela Bartok and Zoltan Kodaly. Hungarian visual arts in this century were dominated by Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, who founded the Chicago Institute of Design. Hollywood was even more influenced by the Magyar emigration. Movie moguls William Fox and Adolph Zukor were Budapest-born, as were Alexander Korda and his brothers, Vincent and Theodor, the director George Cukor, and the producer of Casablanca, Michael Curtisz. And of course, Zsa Zsa Gabor and her sisters were Hungarian, as were Paul Lukas and Erich Weiss, better known as Harry Houdini.
Trying to account for what the physicist Otto Frisch called the "galaxy of brilliant Hungarian expatriates," is a favorite activity in scientific circles. The leading theory, attributed to the theoretical physicist Fritz Houtermans, is that "these people are really from Mars." Andrew Vazxonyi offers a particularly charming version of the extraterrestrial theory. "Well, at the beginning of the century," he says quite seriously, but with a twinkle in his eye, "some people from outer space landed on earth. They thought that the Hungarian women were the best-looking of all, and they took on the form of humans, and after a few years, they decided the Earth was not worth colonizing, so they left. Soon afterward this bunch of geniuses was born. That's the true story."
The actual explanation for Hungary's outpouring of genius is hard to find. Chance certainly played a role. But the strong intellectual values of the Jewish bourgeoisie, combined with the excellent Hungarian educational system, were the fertile field in which the random seeds of genetic chance could flourish. „ [My Brain is Open, Bruce Schecter, 1998, Touchstone, New York]

I suppose, Bruce Schecter hadnt has got the necessary informations to help him solve this pretty mystery. And that necessary information for him would be the knowledge about the qualities of the hungarian/magyar language. Yes, the hungarian educational system had been its own merits also… but those merits hasnt been ever so pairless as it has fantasied by Schecter. How would we have created so exceptional educational system… based on what kind of ‘secret history of magyar education’?
The real secret is in the effect caused by the hungarian/magyar language on the thinking method of the brains of talented/good brained individuals. Before I explain this for you, here is quotes from some people which are strangely reflect the above-mentioned – half-humorous – picture on hungarians:

Isaac Asimov: “A persistent rumor has circulates in the USA: There are two intelligent races living on the surface of planet Earth: the standard people and the hungarians.”
Enrico Fermi, italian atomic scientist answered seriously to reporters when asked about his belief in any kind of space people (aka in E.T.): “They have been here now… they are called hungarians”
Various famous mathematicians (Hungarians and non-hungarians) have been mentioned many times on the course of the XX. century “Its easy to be a great mathematician those with Hungarian mother-language…” (Note: its edpecially interesting that B. Schecter is mathematician himself… so, his lack of knowledge about the importances of the Hungarian language seems as a sad double-miss to him).
The critic Nicholas Lezard about the Utas és Holdvilág (Traveller and Moonlight) written by Szerb Antal (2004, Guardian): “ In reality the hungarians arent simple earthly beings…but they are a super-intelligent extraterrestial race which somehow has been melted into humankind… and we can detect them only by the method of investigating their genial works/products and to discover the incomprehensibility of their language”

Yes, the hungarians have been there in the XX. century from the olimpics to the films of Hollywood to the discovery of the atomic bomb. The Americans had wondered at the ‘hungarian martians‘ in Los Alamos. There even had been a known joke in that time about them which says: …when the atomic scientists’ group has been tired after a long meeting (discussion about the bomb) and Oppenheimer decided to go to smoke a cigarette, someone has said to the others: - Now we can converse in hungarian.

The previouslz mentioned Ede Teller (one of those ‘hungarian martian’) often claimed: if he hasn’t ben able to learn hungarian language before then he probably had been remained only a slightly above-average teacher of physics.

In the title of this thread I have wrote: ”The Hungarian Language: one of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient times”. I have given this title first and foremost because of the structure and effects of the language and not just because there are similarities between it and between the sumerians’. So, if you’re focus on these similarities only you miss the more important facts about it: its living merits.
Many of the quoted people has pointed on these actual merits, such as Cardinal Mazzofanti, Sir John Bowring, N. Erbesberg, W. Schott, N. Simpson or Jakob Grimm himself (yes, he was the older one from the renowned tale-collector german Grimm Brothers): “…He stated that the Hungarian language is logical, has a perfect structure and surpasses every other language”

After this introduction you are asking from yourself: so, what kind of language is the hungarian in reality? My answer is: the hungarian language is dramatic and lyric, it can wave oppositions into concordances, its able to explain and to reveal, it produces the flow of grandiose pictures, but in the meantime it is always clever and gives lights on the most complex human ideas and thoughts.
In other way: the various languages are using words as different rates and relations. But the core roots of the hungarian words are as pictures: they show us kind of various pictures and after we add to them the tags they are realised as miniature movie films into the brain. The full words with the tags have constantly generates associations into the heads of the speakers and of the listeners.
Relative simple words (hehehe, simple to a hungarian) show complex pictures because of manifold connected associatives… in the meantime there arent any idea or concept what couldnt be explain in hungarian with many-many different way. The hungarian vocabulary is immensely rich: for example, to explain statements/notifications there are more than 500 hungarian words, and to describe motions we have got more than 1150 type of words!
The core of the hungarian thinking method is to infiltrate into the explanation possibilities… the effectiveness of this method doesnt depend on the ancestry of the speaker(s) but it depends on the grasp on the hungarian language ability by the practicer of it.

There is further explanation but we would go into the linguistic’s stale field with it and I don’t want boring you – instead of it I try to give the chief concept of the language for you:
The thinking processes are flows in the two hemisphere of the human brain. At average the speaking centered in the left half-brain, in the meantime the right one is mute but its seeing pictures (including 3D sense). Let say, the left half works on digital method ant the right half is analogous. Or, the left half is algebraical and the right half is geometrical (as the seeing centre). The power of conception, the creativity, the musical abilities are right-half centered (… but the composing of music is doing by the left half because of the timing neceesity of the musical works). Sense of humor: right half. So, the two half works in pair… mostly. We has gone into these issues only to give light on the interesting fact: the hungarian communication method is using all the two brain-halfs! The using of concepts/ideas starts from left, the logic of explaining the observed word (communicating what I see) works from right… maybe this has only seeing as separation for an outsider but it has making linkages in reality!
Know it: the hungarian language doesn’t a kind of clever-chating or fashionable chating style: it’s a marvelous talent and who wants to profit from it, he/she needs to master it fully (I mean: who aren’t study it in full blossoming flowers – poetics, songs, literature – he/she probably remain mediocre on his/her respective fields of profession and the standard methods wont be enhanced by the language).

Now, I hope, you have realized why the hungarian language has given exceptional talents to the so called ‘hungarian martians’ such as Ede Teller, or Gyula Krúdy, others… because those who practices hungarian are thinking parallel in pictures and in concepts: we need to use two brain-halfs in continual conjunction. You will experience this when you’ve learned it :) as some previously quoted notoriety.
I think, it hasn’t a coincidence that our cro-magnonian (pre-magyar) ancestors have given birth to it.

Zsuzsanna Ardó: “Make no mistake, Hungarian romance, as most other things Hungarian, conforms
to and, as usual, self-consciously outdoes other European traditions.”

A last note on the quote from Bruce Schecter: he – for some reason – has focused on the virtues of the jews in Hungary. Its a very strange because hungarian jews has been only a fraction of the really talented and famous people from Hungary (whose achievements have been propelled by the use of the hungarian language). I give you an overview about things what kind of inventions came from the brains of the hungarians (one can compare the modest number of hungarians worldwide to the population of the really great nations – such as UK, USA or China – when make paralells between the number of inventions by hungarians and between inventions by members of those populated nations):
…parachute, treadmill, wind-turbine, excavator, elevator, chain-bridge, wind-turbine, steam-turbine, dynamo (yes, its also hungarian invention by a certain Anyos Jedlik), carburetor, electro-motor, benzin motor, automobile power-driven by benzin motor, torsional pendulum, (electrical) ignition switch, train-system working based on electricity, automatic gear-change (or gear-shift), planet wheel (or pinion-gear), bakelite gramophone record, dark-room (where the photograph made from the negatives), porcelain crockery, telephone exchange (center), the computer(!), ball point pen, the match (,,, and match-stick), the helicopter, the jet, torpedo (cruise missile), luminous diode, the moon-radar, the discovery of the cosmic radiation and the bio-magnetism, absolute geometry (…which is the base corner-stone of the relativity), the sound-film (talking picture), picture-telegraph (-transmitter), hologram, the concept of the ‘stress’, Rubik’s Cube… etcetera, etcetera. Also in present days (when practically Hungary is a robbed-out nation where there hasnt have money to research and to design) there are time to time great news about inventions such as news about blood-type neutral blood-plasm or possible health cures to cancer (… which kind of inventions mostly imagined to top-moneyed massive corporate labors of greater nations). Some further interesting words on a public page to those who makes inquires about:
…and yes, I havent mentioned yet the poets, musicians, composere (also, I hadnt mentioned yet: some of the contemporary pioneers of traditional metaphysics are hungarians… you havent much chance to hear this outside the boundarities of Hungary but they are working – helped by our ancient language).
One of our greatest grief is the fact that great present day geniuses goes to live abroad because they hasnt receive honors in here: but they want to live on a certain standards and tempting by foreigners…

János Bolyai (famous hungarian mathematician): „Out of nothing I have created a strange new universe.”

Oh, and a nice apropos. You read above (in the B. Schecter quote) about the best-looking hungarian women. It has been not a surprise to me to read about it: even today this is the general opinion (shared by various nationality people from around the globe). This opinion is agreed on by exceptional number of non-hungarian men when they have the chance to give out opinions into the various medias. Note: nobody say that every hungarian woman shares this boon (it would bee a miracle… even in Hungary more and more races have mixed as the ages pass over). You can travel to here to check my claim. :)

I leave you now with the last statement of Sir John Bowring regarding the hungarian language:
„ This language is the oldest and most glorious monument of national sovereignty and mental independence. What scholars cannot solve, they ignore. In philology it's the same way as in archeology. The floors of the old Egyptian temples, which were made out of only one rock, can't be explained. No one knows where they came from, or from which mountain the wondrous mass was taken. How they were transported and lifted to the top of the temples. The genuineness of the Hungarian language is a phenomenon much more wondrous than this.”


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Hi Athanasius -- In regard to the following quote:

Athanasius said:
Of the 56 particularities of the Sumerian grammar, 53 figure in the Magyar Language. Researchers at Université Paris-Sorbonne have concluded that, of today's world languages, Magyar is the only language that has kept 68% of its ancient etymons, that is, the original elements of humanity's primeval language. For comparison, it should be mentioned that this retention is:
o 4% in the English Language;
o 5% in Latin;
o 12% in Tibetan;
o 26% in Ancient Turkish.

The Magyar Language can be called the primeval language. This is why Magyar words are found in every language of the world. But we did not borrow these words: Rather, since ours is Mankind's most ancient language, it is clear that every other language became an heir to this inheritance.
I am not aware of any way in which it could be established that Magyar in particular was 'Mankind's most ancient language'. I am not an expert in Finno-Ugrian languages (a family you reject in your post in the History section, but seem to accept in this thread above when you mention 'Ural-Altaic', which has traditionally included Hungarian). The question of whether or not there is a 'mother tongue' from which all languages are descended is a hotly debated topic, but there are no professional linguists in the literature of which I am aware who would agree that any modern language could be the original language from which all others are descended (an assertion that has been made before about other languages, most notably Hebrew). Any, or all, languages could be daughters of this putative proto-language, and some may be more conservative than others, but they would technically all be seen on an equal footing since their lines of descent from the original proto-language would be equally long in time.

I assume that you are Hungarian, but that is technically beside the point -- no matter what, you seem to have a vested interest in proving the archaic nature of the Hungarian language and culture, and the evidence for many of your assertions (such as the percentages of retention given for various languages above) seems to be unsubstantiated. I am curious to know what your main point is, and how this is relevant to the other things being discussed here?


The Living Force
Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

shijing said:
... you seem to have a vested interest in proving the archaic nature of the Hungarian language and culture, and the evidence for many of your assertions (such as the percentages of retention given for various languages above) seems to be unsubstantiated. I am curious to know what your main point is, and how this is relevant to the other things being discussed here?
I think this is an interesting question, actually. Considering the fact that out of 25 total posts by Athanasius, 18 have been vehemently 'pro-Hungary, Hungarian', focusing on that theme exclusively, it is a relevant question, I think. The identification with all things Hungarian is palpable, yet it would be interesting to discover the point. osit


FOTCM Member
Another question for you: what is the predominant blood type of the Magyars/Hungarians?


FOTCM Member
Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Found this on the web:

Who Are the Magyars?

A Chinese proverb states:. "Even a journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step." It is very possible that the proto-Magyars wandered not a thousand miles but ten times that distance during the span of many centuries before arriving in their present homeland. Although some historians depict the Magyars as a people of European origin, the greater part of the evidence points to Asia. One thing is certain: they came from the East. The matter of dispute is from how far east?

Search for a definitive answer to this question can be a frustrating experience.

The best known theory of the Magyars' origin is the Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) concept. The advocates of this theory believe in the linguistic and ethnic kinship of the Hungarians with the Finns, Esthonians, Ostyaks and Voguls. This concept places the ancient homeland of the Finno-Ugrians on both sides of the southern Urals, a relatively low mountain range (average altitude 3000 feet) which separates Europe from Asia.

Since the linguistic likeness of the Magyar language to the Finno-Ugrian family of languages has been firmly established, the advocates of this theory insist that the cradle of the Magyars could only have been situated in the Ural region. It was from there - so the theory goes - that around 2000 B.C. the Finnish branch broke away to finally settle in the Baltic area.

Meanwhile, the proto-Magyars remained on the vast West Siberian steppes with other Ugrian peoples until around 500 B.C. (There is no satisfactory explanation, however, for how the Proto-Magyars, who had been forest dwelling hunters and gatherers along with the other Finno-Ugrians, became horse-breeders, livestock herding horsemen and warriors).

Then the Magyars, now alone, crossed the Urals westward to settle in the area of present-day Soviet Bashkiria, situated north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus. Remaining there for centuries, they became neighbors of various Ural-Altaic peoples such as the Huns, Turkic-Bulgars, Alans and Onogurs. Inevitably, these proto-Magyars adopted many of their neighbors' cultural traits and customs. Some ethnic mingling also occurred before the various Hungarian tribes, pressured by waves of migrating nomads, started their own migration westward toward the Carpathians.

This Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) theory was quasi sanctioned by the state from the middle of the 19th century to recent times. After World War II, however, this concept was challenged by a new coalition of scholars and orientalists. The Finno-Ugrian theory, they argue, is based on linguistics alone, without support in anthropology, archeology or written records.

The orientalists point, instead, to apparent evidence that the cradle of the Magyars and their language lay not in the Ural region, but in an area of Central-Asia, earlier known as the Turanian Plain. Now known as Soviet Turkestan, this area stretches from the Caspian Sea eastward to Lake Balchas. Ancient chronicles called this huge area Scythia. A living tradition fed by centuries of folklore holds that the proto-Magyars were related to the Scythians, builders of a great empire in the fifth century B.C. Greek and Latin authors freely referred to a great variety of peoples living within this empire as "Scythians," just as the varieties of peoples encompassed by the Soviet Union today are often called "Soviets."

After the Scythian Empire disintegrated, the Turanian Plain witnessed the rise and fall of empires built between the first and ninth centuries A.D. by the Huns, Avars, Khazars and various Turkic peoples, including the Uygurs. The proto-Magyars absorbed new strains from these peoples, and formed tribal alliances from which later the Hungarian nation - an amalgam of Onogur, Sabir, Turkic and Ugrian peoples - was to be born.

Today, students of Far-Eastern history believe that the Magyars were strongly exposed to Sumerian culture as well since proto-Sumerians too, had inhabited the Turanian Plain until about 3000 B.C. This people then migrated to Mesopotamia, where they built a brilliant civilization, whose most important achievement was the invention of writing.

By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their cuneiform writings endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century, including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and François Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages - particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings. Cuneiform writing was used by the Hungarians long before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.

The similarity of the two languages strongly inspired Hungarian orientalists to seek a deeper Sumerian-Hungarian connection. To the present day, however, no indisputable and decisive proof has yet emerged.

However; a by-product of orientalist speculations - a "Finno-Ugrian concept in reverse. " - is worthy of note. This concept holds that, if the proto-Magyars were neighbors of proto-Sumerians in the Turanian Plain, then the development of the Hungarian language must have been the result of Sumerian rather than Finno-Ugrian(-Turkic) influences. In turn, this would mean that, rather than being the recipients of a Finno-Ugrian linguistic heritage, it was the Magyars themselves who must have conveyed their own proto-language, enriched by Sumerian, to the Finns and Estonians, without being ethnically related to them!

Adding strength to this theory is the fact that the Magyars have always been numerically stronger than all their distant Finno-Ugrian neighbors combined. It is possible that Finns and Ugors received strong linguistic strains from a Magyar branch which had broken away from the main body on the Turanian Plain, and migrated to West Siberia.

The Magyar-Uygur "Connection"

Highly interesting in the quest for the ancient Hungarian homeland have been recent efforts to study the Magyar-Uygur connection. The Uygurs are a people with a Caucasian appearance in the Xinjiang province of China. This region still reflects its ancient role as a meeting place of Chinese civilization and Central Asia's nomadic peoples. Here, members of a dozen ethnic groups outnumber the nationally predominant Han Chinese. The largest among them are the Uygurs, 7 million strong, who still hold fast to their Turkic language.

The Uygurs inhabit the Tarim Basin and a chain of oases between the forbidding Taklamakan and Gobi deserts. Traversing the region is a 4,000 mile trade route used by caravans traveling from China to the shores of the Mediterranean. Taklamakan "in the folklore of the Uygurs means once you get in, you can never get out." Over the centuries the Uygurs have built intricate canal systems for waters originating in the snow-covered mountain ranges to the north. They also dug wells to supply water for growing grains, fruit, vegetables and cotton. At the Uygurs' northern border stretches the Dzungarian Basin, a steppe-like region where dry grain - farming is practiced.

The very name Dzungaria has a striking similarity to Hungaria, the Latin word for Hungary, a word still used in poetic terms in Hungary today. Northeast of Dzungaria lies the Altai Mountain Range, a name used by linguists in defining the Ural-Altaic language group to which Magyar also belongs. Further to the north stretches the Lake Baykal region. It is from here that first the Scythians, then the Huns emerged to conquer the Turanian Plain. The Magyars, Uygurs and the Turks may also have started their migrations from the northeastern part of the Baykal area.

Given all these circumstances, it is no wonder that the most famous Hungarian explorer, Sándor Körösi-Csoma, pointed toward the land of the Uygurs in his quest, which started in 1819, for the ancient Magyar homeland. Unfortunately, neither he nor Ármin Vámbéry, another Hungarian explorer of international fame, was able to reach the land of the Uygurs, due to forbidding deserts and mountain ranges, and marauding bandits. Sir Aurél Stein. a third internationally famous Hungarian explorer did succeed in reaching Xinjiang with his expedition in 1913, but exploring the Uygur area regarding the origin of the Magyars was beyond his mission of collecting artifacts for the British Museum.

It was not until the 1980s that Hungarian orientalists could finally overcome natural and political barriers to finally take a good look at the Uygurs. They returned impressed by what they had seen, and one after the other gave glowing accounts, documented by audio-visual presentations, of the similarities in facial features, music and folk arts. In addition, reports mention that the Uygurs have an unwritten tradition about their kinship with the Magyars whom they call "vingirs," and who had left many centuries earlier finally emerging as "conquerors" in Europe. Until further anthropological, archeological and linguistic research is conducted, however, drawing definite conclusions would be premature.

This might take long years, because in April, 1990 China declared Xinjiang an "off limit" area again to foreigners. Anti-Chinese agitation among the Uygurs is attributed to the ban.

However, one fact stands out in the labyrinth of various theories and that is the undeniable Asiatic influence which is expressed in various forms among Hungarians even today.

Legends and folk tales reach back much further in time than the pens of historians. Magyar folk tales are strikingly similar to those of Asian peoples. The structure of Magyar folk music, which uses the pentatonic scale, also points to Asian origins. "We actually have two mother tongues," said Zoltán Kodály, the Hungarian musical genius of this century. "One is the spoken language of Finno-Ugric origin, and the other is the language of our music, which is the westernmost branch of a great Asian musical culture extending from China through Middle Asia to our area."

The famous gate ornaments of the Székelys in Transylvania bear a strong resemblance to those in the pagodas of China. Their tombstones (made of wood) are similar to those seen in Chinese cemeteries. Interestingly, the color of mourning in some parts of Hungary, notably in Somogy County, is the same as in parts of Asia - white. Hungarian cuisine - using strong spices and seasonings such as paprika, pepper, saffron, and ginger - also bears the imprint of Asian influence. as do the patterns used in national folk costumes.

Former premier Count Pál Teleki, perhaps the highest authority on Hungarian history and geography, once said: "I profess with pride, both here and abroad, that we are a people of Asian origin!"

The Hun and Avar Connection

The best known Magyar folk tale is the Legend of the White Stag. It describes how two sons of Nimrod, Hunor and Magor, were lured into a new land by a fleeing white stag. There they married the king's daughters. The descendants of Hunor and his men became known as the Huns, and the descendants of Magor and his men became known as Magyars.

This legend contains a grain of truth in that it points to the common origin of the Huns and Magyars, which Hungarians have known since time immemorial. Surprisingly, Hungarians are proud of their origin despite the bad reputation given to the Huns and their leader, Attila, by Western history books. Most writings describe Attila the Hun as cruel and ruthless, with one notable exception - the famous German Nibelungen-Lied mentions him thus: "There was a mighty king in the land of the Huns whose goodness and wisdom had no equal."

Wherever the truth may lie, cruelty and man's inhumanity to man have always been characteristics of human behavior. Actually, the Vandals were much worse than the Huns, so much so that their terrible "character" has been immortalized by the word "vandal" itself. In comparison, Attila was also less cruel than Cortez, Pizarro, and Ivan the Terrible. Would these conquerors have shown Rome mercy, as Attila did, when the Pope pleaded with him outside the gates of the Eternal City? Genserich, Belizar the Saracens, the Norsemen, and 1000 years later (in 1527) the German and Spanish mercenary troops all pillaged Rome without heed.

In the midst of Oriental and barbaric splendor, Attila's simplicity stamped him a true soldier. Delegates from Byzantium related with wonder that the mighty Hun chief used only a wooden goblet and wooden plate during the sumptuous banquets they had attended. At that time. Attila's empire extended from the Rhine River to the Caspian Sea, and from the Baltic Sea to the Lower Danube. But. as with many quickly created empires. Attila's realm fell to pieces soon after his early death on his nuptial night in 453 A.D. Rivalry broke out among his sons, and the Huns who had threatened Gaul and Rome withdrew to the East between the Don and Kuhan rivers. There they disintegrated into various nomadic tribes.

After the tide of the Huns had peaked and ebbed, further waves of peoples moved in to take their place, but all were crushed by the Avars, a quickly emerging branch of the Ural-Altaic group. They succeeded in founding an empire whose heart was in the area once held by the Huns: the territory between the Danube and Tisza rivers in the Carpathian Basin. The Avars' peculiar weapon was the gladius hunnicus, the Huns' curved sabre. They raised circular bulwarks and dug entrenchments, the traces of which can still be seen in scattered locations.

The Avars' downfall was hastened by the development of Charlemagne's Frankish Empire. Their armies clashed in a fierce war of attrition that lasted seven years, from 796 to 803 A.D. After their defeat by Frankish troops, most Avar tribes returned to the slopes of the Caucasian Mountains. Some others, however, stayed and mingled with the Slavs of the area and later with the Magyars.

When the Magyars tinder Árpád arrived in their new homeland, they found that they were welcomed as brethren by the sparse population in some areas. According to the Teri-i-Üngürüsz chronicle: "When they arrived in the land, they saw its many rivers teeming with fish, the land rich in fruits and vegetables, and members of other tribes, some of whom understood their language."

But this seemingly simple progression into the Carpathian Basin is only part of the story, as we shall see.

Black Magyars and White Magyars

Ancient Chinese geographical directions, not skin color, form the basis for the distinction between the "black" branch and the "white" branch of the Magyars.

Contrary to the Western compass, the Chinese held that there were, five cardinal directions, the fifth being "the center of the universe", China itself. Each of the five directions was symbolized by a color.

The central point, China, was indicated by yellow, for the gold that befit His Imperial Highness. The North, so often shrouded by the dark of Arctic nights, was black. The West was given white, a color that reflected the blinding white sands of the vast deserts on the western horizon. Red denoted the sunny South, and the East was symbolized by blue, the color of the ocean eternally washing China's eastern shores.

Based on these color symbols, the White Magyars ("white ugurs") represented the Western branch of their race. According to ancient Russian chronicles, the White Magyars appeared in the Carpathian Basin as early as 670-680 A.D., first with the Bulgars, and later with the Avars.

The second branch of Magyar tribes - called Black Magyars in ancient Russian chronicles - took a different route. The directions that route took are still debated by Finno-Ugrian and orientalist theorists, but the final outcome is that the Black Magyars became connected with peoples belonging to the Ural-Altaic groups. These included a range of peoples from Manchuria to Turkey.

Among these groups the Finno-Ugrian/Magyars drew closest to the Turks, who were fierce warriors with a talent for statecraft. This association with the Turks created a new blend of Magyar: Finno-Ugrian in language but Ural-Altaic in culture. This was the breed of Magyars that in 896 A.D. would ride into the Carpathian Basin under Árpád - following the footsteps of the 'White Magyars who appeared in the Carpathian Basin in the 670s A.D. But for now, Árpád's Magyars were still many hundreds of miles away from that area, engaged in a struggle for survival among warlike nomads.

In a protracted scramble for living space, the Magyars were pushed closer to the West by their powerful enemies, the Petchenegs (bessenyök), until they settled in what was called Lebedia, named after their leader, Lebed. But the relentless onslaught of their enemies continued and finally, breaking under the strain, a small group of Magyars split from the main body and moved back to their former homeland in the Volga region, Baskiria (later dubbed Magna Hungaria).

The main group moved farther west and attempted to settle an area known as Etelköz, between several rivers, not far from the foothills of the Carpathians. Even here, in Etelköz, Bulgarian and Petcheneg harassment continued.

About this time, in the eighth and ninth centuries, Christian missionaries frequently traveled over the Carpathian Mountains, bringing with them news of Pannonia, the western part of the Carpathian Basin beyond the Danube. Their tales rekindled memories of the Hun-Avar-Magyar kinship and must surely have played a major role in pushing the leaders of the Magyar tribes to a fateful decision: they must find a new homeland,. defensible against present and future enemies. What followed was the Hungarian equivalent of "Westward, ho'."

A Covenant of Blood-with a "Flaw"

By the time their chieftains had decided to go west and cross over into the Carpathian Basin, the Magyars were a well organized tribal alliance. Their society was clearly divided into social strata, administered by councils on the clan and tribal levels. However, their leaders were empowered to take arbitrary measures in cases of emergency. They formed a democratic society which was constantly on military alert.

Knowing that difficult and dangerous times lay ahead, the tribal chieftains decided to unite under a single Supreme Chief. (There were 108 clans represented by the seven Magyar tribes and the three Kabar tribes that had recently joined with the Magyars.

The chiefs assembled under a large tent, with their people as witnesses around its square perimeter. Each chief in turn slit his forearm, and let his blood flow into a cup. Last to contribute his blood was Árpád, their newly chosen leader The táltos (shaman) who presided at this rite mixed wine with the blood that had thus been collected. He then poured a small amount of the mixture onto the ground, sprinkled a few drops north, south, east, and west, and then passed the cup to the chiefs, who drank from it one by one.

From this day forward, "the táltos declared," the Magyars, the Huns, and the Kabars shall be one nation indivisible, just as your blood has become one in this cup.

Árpád, the chosen Supreme Chief was last to drink from the cup. Thereupon, according to custom: he was raised on a shield and duly installed in his new role as Supreme Chief...

In this manner the Covenant of Blood forged one nation, thereafter known as the Hungarian nation.

The terms of the Covenant of Blood were simple enough. Any land obtained by common effort would be shared fairly by all members of the nation. The land was to be held by individuals as their rightful property (not in fief from their lord, as in the medieval principle of feudalism). The elected sovereign (Árpád, in this case) was to rule by the will of the nation rather than by absolute Divine Right, and Árpád's descendants would be hereditary rulers.

The covenant did not lay down exact rules of succession since it was assumed that, according to tradition, the oldest able-bodied male of the family would inherit the leadership. But this principle of succession, known as senioratus, was regarded as outdated in contemporary Europe, where the Christian rulers preferred the system of primogeniture, according to which the first-born son would inherit the throne. This conflict of principles would later result in bloody rivalries among Árpád's successors after the introduction of Christianity into Hungary.

With the election of their new leader, it was only a matter of time before the Hungarians would set forth to conquer the coveted land. When the Petchenges renewed their attacks in 895 A.D., Árpád alerted his people to prepare for the crossing of the Carpathians.



FOTCM Member
We should also notice that the Huns practiced cranial deformation. See:

Apparently, a lot of "deformed" skulls have been found in Hungary also, even as recent as the middle ages and later.

After recently reading a book about cranial deformation, I wonder how any normal human being, subjected to those processes as infants, ever grew up sane at all. If they weren't psychopathic to begin with, they would become that way after being tied down with their heads compressed for the first two years of life.

Another thing that occurred to me while reading this material was that this was done in imitation of some kind of beings that had these weird heads and that many of the cases cited in the book were NOT artificial deformation, but natural, and maybe this bizarre, dolichocephalic head with the extreme upward/backward extension was the "Mark of Cain." It also strikes me that, since there is often an association between cranial deformation and circumcision, circumcision was also done in "imitation" of the "new elite." And if so, what was the genital structure of this "elite"? Is this a track of something important, like "Nephilim"? Were their genitals similar to the genitals of reptiles and circumcision was an attempt to make the human male organ look like an everted reptilian organ which, as we know, has no foreskin because it is constantly erect and folded inside a compartment in the body? And if so, is this connected to those many ancient statues of the elite with constantly erect penises? Was this depicted in emulation?

In any event, some group was the "elite" back then and people were pressing their children's heads and whacking their penises to make them look like the rulers or to "please the god."


FOTCM Member
Answering my own question after a little poking around on the web:

Hungarians Type O 36% Type A 43% Type B 16% Type AB 5%

Also, the peoples of Hungary break down as follows: Hungarian 89.9%, Gypsy 4%, German 2.6%, Serb 2%, Slovak 0.8%, Romanian 0.7%

Back in the early days of man, there were only blood type O people. This means the surface of the red blood cells had neither A nor B antigens on it. This has carried down until today, when the vast majority of people are still type O.

Around 20,000BC, a mutation occurred, and some people began to be Blood Type A. These people developed an A membrane or antigen on the surface of their blood cells. This blood type became common in central Europe as well as Scandanavia. Many feel this change occurred when farming became common in those areas.

The next change was around 10,000BC. This is when some people developed a Type B membrane on their blood cells. This change took place in Asia and Japan, and biologists are not sure what encouraged this change to take place.

It was not until around the 1500s that the A groups and B groups began to mix as travel became more and more common. This formed the AB blood type, which is most common now in northern India, even though it is still the rarest of the four main blood types. Only 5% of US residents are blood type AB.


Dagobah Resident
Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Laura said:
Another question for you: what is the predominant blood type of the Magyars/Hungarians?
The Magyars/Hungarians have a blood type distribution very close to the Finnish blood type distribution. This would support the linguistic evidence of a common origin for these two peoples, or is it one people with two locations.

Bloodbook notes that information on human genetic and blood variations is a taboo subject. This has been true since WWII. The subject of human genetics and trait heritability brings up many questions. Would “soul potential” be inheritable? Are genes for psychopathy concentrated by ethnicity or blood type? These questions of human identity are verbotum in our politically correct age.

Bloodbook said:

Sorted by Population Groups

There are racial and ethnic differences in Blood type and composition. The ABO Blood group system was discovered in 1901 and since it is of major importance in medicine, samples have been diligently collected from the most remote of people groups for a century. Of no other human characteristic is so much data available. Most populations have migrated and mixed. Unfortunately the reliability of the Blood data for assessing relationships between population groups is very limited. This is mostly due to the lack of availability and interchange of this important data. As the chart below reveals, the frequency and purity of the four main ABO Blood groups varies in populations throughout the world. Great variation occurs in different groups within a given country; even a small country, as one ethnic group mixes, or not, with another. Blood type purity depends on migration, disease, interrelational-reproductive opportunity, traditions and customs, geography and the initial Blood type assigned.

Publishing the ethnic differences in Blood type and the racial differences in Blood type is not, in the present-day world, considered to be politically correct. We compile and maintain this database through often times confidential sources. Every Blood gathering entity in the world must gather this information to stay in business, but almost every one of them is afraid to publish the racial and ethnic differences in Blood type, given the emotionally charged political climate.


There is precise and up-to-date data available. These racial and ethnic Blood typing and population migration statistics are important in modern medicine for many reasons. The overriding problem in obtaining and publishing this information in the United States, and to a slightly lesser extent in Western Europe, is political correctness. It is not nice to talk about the ways that I may be different from you!
A Word about Blood-related DNA Genealogy and Anthropological Sampling - The relatively new science of DNA research applied to full-blooded, indigenous populations from around the world has led to the discovery and documentation of genetic markers that are unique to populations, ethnicity and/or deep ancestral migration patterns. The markers having very specific modes of inheritance, which are relatively unique to specific populations, are used, among other things, to assess ancestral and kinship probabilities. The following chart considers only these full-blooded, indigenous groups.


Aborigines 61 39 0 0
Abyssinians 43 27 25 5
Ainu (Japan) 17 32 32 18
Albanians 38 43 13 6
Grand Andamanese 9 60 23 9
Arabs 34 31 29 6
Armenians 31 50 13 6
Asian (in USA - General) 40 28 27 5
Austrians 36 44 13 6
Bantus 46 30 19 5
Basques 51 44 4 1
Belgians 47 42 8 3
Blackfoot (N. Am. Indian) 17 82 0 1
Bororo (Brazil) 100 0 0 0
Brazilians 47 41 9 3
Bulgarians 32 44 15 8
Burmese 36 24 33 7
Buryats (Siberia) 33 21 38 8
Bushmen 56 34 9 2
Chinese-Canton 46 23 25 6
Chinese-Peking 29 27 32 13
Chuvash 30 29 33 7
Czechs 30 44 18 9
Danes 41 44 11 4
Dutch 45 43 9 3
Egyptians 33 36 24 8
English 47 42 9 3
Eskimos (Alaska) 38 44 13 5
Eskimos (Greenland) 54 36 23 8
Estonians 34 36 23 8
Fijians 44 34 17 6
Finns 34 41 18 7
French 43 47 7 3
Georgians 46 37 12 4
Germans 41 43 11 5
Greeks 40 42 14 5
Gypsies (Hungary) 29 27 35 10
Hawaiians 37 61 2 1
Hindus (Bombay) 32 29 28 11
Hungarians 36 43 16 5
Icelanders 56 32 10 3
Indians (India - General) 37 22 33 7
Indians (USA - General) 79 16 4 1
Irish 52 35 10 3
Italians (Milan) 46 41 11 3
Japanese 30 38 22 10
Jews (Germany) 42 41 12 5
Jews (Poland) 33 41 18 8
Kalmuks 26 23 41 11
Kikuyu (Kenya) 60 19 20 1
Koreans 28 32 31 10
Lapps 29 63 4 4
Latvians 32 37 24 7
Lithuanians 40 34 20 6
Malasians 62 18 20 0
Maoris 46 54 1 0
Mayas 98 1 1 1
Moros 64 16 20 0
Navajo (N. Am. Indian) 73 27 0 0
Nicobarese (Nicobars) 74 9 15 1
Norwegians 39 50 8 4
Papuas (New Guinea) 41 27 23 9
Persians 38 33 22 7
Peru (Indians) 100 0 0 0
Philippinos 45 22 27 6
Poles 33 39 20 9
Portuguese 35 53 8 4
Rumanians 34 41 19 6
Russians 33 36 23 8
Sardinians 50 26 19 5
Scotts 51 34 12 3
Serbians 38 42 16 5
Shompen (Nicobars) 100 0 0 0
Slovaks 42 37 16 5
South Africans 45 40 11 4
Spanish 38 47 10 5
Sudanese 62 16 21 0
Swedes 38 47 10 5
Swiss 40 50 7 3
Tartars 28 30 29 13
Thais 37 22 33 8
Turks 43 34 18 6
Ukrainians 37 40 18 6
United Kingdom (GB) 47 42 8 3
USA (US blacks) 49 27 20 4
USA (US whites) 45 40 11 4
USA Blood Types ( US all) 44 42 10 4

A Contribution to the Physical Anthropology and Population Genetics
L. Beckman - *as revised by 12/07/2000; 07/22/2001; 04/10/2002; 05/22/2004; 07/13/2008.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

In regard to this paragraph in the article quoted by Laura above:

By 1950 B.C. the Sumerian empire was gone, but their cuneiform writings endured on the tablets they had used. Famous linguists of the 19th century, including Henry C. Rawlinson, Jules Oppert, Eduard Sayous and François Lenormant soon found that knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages - particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings. Cuneiform writing was used by the Hungarians long before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.
I can't find anything specifically showing that 'knowledge of the Ural-Altaic languages - particularly Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings' -- the scholars mentioned above do not actually seem to be particularly famous, but even so there have been significant advances in Hungarian classification since the 19th century, and the affiliation of Hungarian with Finnic languages (the Finno-Ugric family, part of the Uralic phylum) is pretty well established (see, although the references here are incomplete). Old Hungarian script only resembles Sumerian Cuneiform aesthetically, but does not derive from it in any direct way; rather, it seems to derive originally from Old Turkic script, due to the fact that Magyar tribes lived in close proximity to Turkic tribes at the time that they developed their own script ( I therefore don't think that an argument can be made specifically linking Sumerian and Hungarian based on either comparison of the languages themselves or their writing systems. Where the Hungarians originated, and how they ended up where they are in modern history, are of course very interesting questions regardless.

On a completely different note:

In any event, some group was the "elite" back then and people were pressing their children's heads and whacking their penises to make them look like the rulers or to "please the god."
I think this is a very interesting hypothesis! I had never thought about the connection between circumcision and reptilian penises before this -- I wonder if other traditional mutilations such as tooth evulsion might be explained the same way.


The Force is Strong With This One
I cant able to give any meaningfull informations to the (surprisingly turned) disscussion about blood-types. Anyway, the main issue of this article is on the hungarian language and not on the hungarian blood types (excluding for those of you who have taken overly seriously my humorous-initiated words regarding the B. Schecter article mentioned beauties). BUT if we are speaking about blood types we need to take into consideration the followings.

When we are examining the mentioned theory (also, a version of it has highlighted in blue in the longest quote above, thanks for Laura) we need to understand: according to this theory one – or more - branch of the pre-magyars (pre-hungarians, pre-szekelys) had left the Carpathian Basin some thousand years ago to different directions: most of them to the east (to lands of ancient Mesopotania, present-day Mongolia, etc…) and some of them has journeyed back to the fabled ancient homeland in the Carpathian Basin… where they have found the remains of the original tribes, the szekelys (you can found some information about the even int he english language wikipedia, search for Székely ) who even retained some from the ancient rune script (… to remember: this has been the help for linguistics to deciphering the sumerian writing, quoted by Laura) and also (quoted by me, I think as a surprise to many) it helped to decipher even egyptian hieroglyphs in the past! Because the wandering hungarian – over thousands of years – have mixed with others, its natural, that the blood-types need to show as mixed. The really important issue is the common heritage and the language (… when the hungarian tribes arrived back from the east about 1120 years ago into Pannonia and they found the magyar szekelys they has communicated without problem – and we are communicating with them even today as our brothers/sisters)! Note: after Trianon (in 1920) the old hungarian Transylvanian areas connected to Romania: the szekelys are living there until now (as minority, decreasing in numbers and suppressed continously by romanian government – tries to forbid even the right to study in school in their own language – because they are the living antithesis to the romanian governmental favored opinion-making thet the romanians has the original ancestral roots in Transylvania). So, back to the blood type question: based on these mentioned facts, maybe it would be the most learnful experience – from the viewpoint of blood type comparison – to check the most old-rooted magyar-szekely transylvanian families’ blood the sharing of the 0 / A / B / AB types! Because of the mentioned examples (by Laura and by go2) are shows the modern/mixed hungarian blood-types share and havent including the szekelys… I think it would be difficult to check it because the romanian government will fight against this kind of comparison if they realise the purpose (note: in Wikipedia you find some DNA-infos regarding the szekelys but the 0/A/B/AB comparison naturally misses). But again: the main issue of this article isnt blood type comparison but to point highly interesting anomalies about the hungarian language (its past, its present).

Probably you have realised: when I quoted from various people their opinion about the origin and merits of the hungarian language I have choosen mostly those non-hungarian people who have the possibility in their life to study intensively the hungarian language and compare it to many different languages. I would like to add here another very interesting article to you, to follow the course of this direction.
As shown above, different pre-magyar branches has left the Basin to another directions: you will find more explanation about this in a fully quoted article below. Note: the main purpose of this article is to give correction to the conclusion in the book by Mario Alinei but it will worth your time to read it fully over because it disscuss many interesting and relevant issues of importance to give clearing on some question about the main theory in this thread. A certain Mario Alinei – prominent professor in linguistic in Italy – has written a book 6 years ago about his important discoveries between the etruscan and the hungarian language. Before I follow here is the wikipedia article about him:
Mario Alinei (born 1926, Turin) is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht where he taught from 1959 to 1987, currently living in Impruneta. He is founder and editor of Quaderni di semantica, a journal of theoretical and applied semantics. Until recently, he was president of Atlas Linguarum Europae at UNESCO.
Alinei has authored hundreds of publications and is a well known scholar in the field of dialectology. He is also the main proponent of the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, which contends that the Indo-European languages originated in Europe and have existed there since the Paleolithic.
Some of his main linguistical contributions, which were instrumental in creating the Paleolitcic Continuity Theory, regarded tendencies towards the conservation of languages, as opposed to the theories of "biological laws" of linguistic change and the method of lexical self-dating.
Alinei was a pioneer in the use of computers in linguistics. According to Pavle Ivic "Alinei is one of the not so numerous European Linguist who already in the early sixties were willing and able to apply the results of technological innovations to the study of language".

Mr. Alinei has written about the evidences of the connection but his final opinion has been that the etruscan language had been the archaic form of hungarian. Because Alinei hasn’t much information outside his main field of experience – linguistics – László Botos (prominent leader of the Institute of Hungarian Studies) has written an open answer to him in which he gives relevant datas to clear: so, the hungarian has been the archaic form of the etruscan! Quote from László Botos:

Opinion about the Surprising Results of Dr. Mario Alinei’s Research

by László Botos

This surprising work, which heralds a new era, is worthy of praise because it states that the language of the Etruscans, the founders of Rome, on which the whole civilization of Europe was built, was the language of a Magyar-speaking people. In spite of the outstanding nature of Dr. Mario Alinei’s book: Etrusco: una forma arcaica de Ungherese (Ősi Kapocs) (Ancient Bond), as a pioneer work, it requires some corrections. We believe that Dr. Alinei, an open-minded scholar who truly researches the truth, when he was writing his book did not know the information we are about to offer him. We hope that, after it has been brought to his attention, he will write an addendum to correct the omissions from the original work.

In his book, we read that, after the Baden age, between 3000 and 2000 BC, the tribes coming from the south with the knowledge of mining, smelting, and metal-working, went toward the west as a well-armed equestrian people, and as Etruscans, occupied a part of the present land of Italy. All this is very questionable.

The UNESCO publication in 1963, Prehistory and the Beginnings of Civilization by Sir Leonard Woolley and Jacquetta Hawkes, points out two centers of civilization, which supposedly predated the Körös Culture of the Carpathian Basin. According to the view of Dr. Etelka Toronyi, the Natufian Culture could not have predated the Körös Culture, as the aforementioned book states, because it cannot be regarded as an independent cultural center. In the Natufian Culture there cannot be found any trace of the remains of the most primitive settlements, only the tools of a simple agricultural people. The writers of the UNESCO publication date this culture to 8000 BC, which is in the Neolithic Age. The culture of the Carpathian Basin dates back to the Paleolithic Age, 25-30,000 years ago. They demonstrate with tables that the Jermo or Jericho culture also predates the Körös culture. Etelka Toronyi writes that this is mistaken[1] because the art of ceramics, which separates the Neolithic from the Paleolithic era, is not present in the lowest level of Jermo, which is supposedly older than the Körös Culture. Ceramics are the measure of a cultural standard. The ceramics excavated in the city found on the second cultural level of Jermo or Jericho may be the same age as those of the Körös or Erösd cultures but they are more primitive than those of Körös or Erösd; the walls of the clay pots found in Jermo II. are thick, formed by hand and the glazing is of poor quality. The ceramics found in Kökénydomb in the territory of Körös and those found near the Iron Gate were turned on a wheel and had decorations in relief.

The pre-Szeszklo or ancient Szekler building technique, the potter’s wheel and ceramics glazed at high temperatures were all brought to the Balkans, across the islands of the Aegean Sea, to Asia Minor and from there to the shores of the Mediterranean Sea. According to the observations of Etelka Toronyi, the artisans, who practiced the art of glazed ceramics, discovered how to smelt metals. Only those people who were able to make glazed ceramics, which required a temperature of 1700 degrees Celsius, could have discovered the smelting of metals. Moreover in their territory pure copper and other metals could be found. Therefore the first mines in Europe were found in the Carpathian Basin and in the largest numbers in Europe. Just for this reason, there was no necessity for tribes to bring mining and smelting knowledge from the south.

The ancient Szeklers lived in a territory, Transylvania, where not only copper but also tin could be found in veins and in ores. Therefore, we can make the conclusion that the Szekler people were the first people to discover bronze. This statement is supported by the large number of bronze artifacts found in the Carpathian Basin. The fact that almost every tool made of copper, found in the Carpathian Basin, was a replica of polished Stone Age tools, allows us to conclude that the Proto-Szeklers used copper at a very early period in history. The copper objects found in Transylvania were of a very high level of workmanship seen nowhere else in the world. Bracelets, arm-ornaments, brooches and buckles were found in large quantifies. Dechelette, the famed French Bronze-Age researcher made a list of the locations and ages of the articles found. This list shows that the most primitive Bronze Age objects in Western Europe date to 2000 B.C. but in the Carpathian Basin, the bronze objects made by the Szeklers date back to 4000 B.C. and a bronze adze found in the county of Torontal, which is inscribed with the Szekler Runic Script, dates back to 5000 B.C.

Jan Briand compared the bronze findings of Asia and Europe and stated that the adzes, spiral brooches, bracelets and buckles from Transylvania are the most remarkable remains of the Bronze Age.[2] The rich appearance of the bronze articles and their many different forms lead us to conclude that the Proto-Szeklers were the first to make bronze from copper and tin. Not only on the basis of archeology can we state that the creators of the pre-historic culture were the Proto-Szeklers, but we can prove from the metrical analysis of anthropology that the direct descendants of the Proto-Szeklers are the present-day Szeklers and Magyars. A bronze adze found in Tordos witnesses to the fact that the first forms of writing existed in the Carpathian Basin, 7000 years ago. We can be sure that the inscription on the bronze adze is really a form of writing because the objects excavated at Tordos by Zsófia Torma, ceramics and round seals, are inscribed with markings identical to those on the bronze adze. These ceramics and round seals are dated to be from the same period as the adze. This important collection of articles inscribed with the Runic Script was studied by Dr. Matthias Fehér whose conclusions were published posthumously by his wife, in two volumes.[3] The Szekler Runic Script of today shows a strong resemblance to the script on the bronze adze of Tordos and the ceramics and seals excavated by Zsófia Torma.

John Dayton's research supports the conclusions of Etelka Toronyi: "The European Bronze Age preceded that of the Near East. The same pattern is apparent in the development of glazing and its allied craft, metallurgy."[4] Writing of the production of bronze artifacts in the Near East, he says: "Tin does not exist in the Near East and came from China or from Europe (Bohemia)"[5] He points out that native copper did not exist in Egypt and that in Central Europe and the Carpathians, large quantities of native copper, gold and silver are to be found.[6]

Kálmán Miske, a Hungarian archeologist, already in the early 1900’s, informed us of the results of the excavations at Velem St. Vid in Hungary. He offered indisputable proofs that Bronze Age mining contributed to the spread of bronze artifacts in Western Europe.[7] Antimony was mined in the Rohonc Mountain in Burgenland (Western Hungary) near Velem St. Vid. This Hungarian territory was given to Austria in 1920 at the Treaty of Trianon. The antimony mines are still in use today. The Hungarian name for the mining area was Szalonak. Its present name is Schlaining. The majority of the artifacts found in the three excavations at Velem St. Vid are presently on display in the museum at Szombathely. There must have been a large population at Velem St. Vid in the Bronze Age for John Dayton, quoting Kalman Miske, says: "This site has also yielded tuyeres, crucibles, and some fifty stone moulds, mostly for socketed axes, and must have been a very important production centre."[8] He later says: "Evidence is in fact accumulating for trade over a large area of Western Europe during the Third Millennium."[9] Most of the Bronze Age artifacts, hand-wrought or cast in a mold, which can be found in the museums of Western Europe, originated from Velem St. Vid. Miske mentions that, already in the Bronze Age, bronze was made from an alloy of copper and tin but the Velem St. Vid process was an exception because it used antimony instead of tin. It is an indisputable fact that antimony bronze was developed at Velem St. Vid. John Dayton supports this conclusion and again reinforces the fact that antimony is not mined in the Near East.[10]

Elemer Csobánczi writes that an artifact of antimony and gold was found in the grave of the Egyptian Pharoah Kheneri of the Second Dynasty. He quotes A.R. Burne who says that the two metals, gold and antimony, can only be alloyed by the use of a catalyst, a third metal called Tellurium. Geologists have found only three places where the three metals can be found together, in natural form - in Australia, North America and in Zalatna, Transylvania. We can conclude that the Egyptians received these metals from Transylvania.[11]

Gordon Childe states that, in the Bronze Age, the alloy electrum was made of two parts gold and one part silver. This process was known in only four places, the Carpathian Basin, Troy, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia.[12]

The ancient name for Szombathely indicates the nature of the ancient people who inhabited this region. The original name was Szabaria which means a settlement of Szabir/ Szubar people (Subareans). The Subareans were a Mesopotamian people and the accepted theory of diffusion states that they migrated from Mesopotamia to the Carpathian Basin. Dayton, however, proves that "From a geological point of view and in view of the archeological evidence, the Hungarian/Bohemian Basin offers all the elements for the discovery of metallurgy."[13] He also states "It is also quite clear that the metallurgical wealth of Mesopotamia was developed from Central Europe."[14] Dayton contends that the movement of peoples was the reverse of that accepted by historians. His theory is that, because of an intense drought at the end of the Fourth Millennium in Europe, "there was a movement of peoples into the Mediterranean and Near East, if not into Egypt."[15] The ancient people, already in the Bronze Age, using sailboats, reached the island of Crete, Asia Minor, Egypt and Africa.

It should be no surprise that the Carpathian Basin was a densely populated area during the Bronze Age, when we consider that man had lived in this area for millennia. Archeologists have found human remains of 94 people dating back 2.5 million years. The skull found at Vertesszőllős dates back 450,000 years.[16] In the Neolithic Age, one of the most important materials used by ancient man to make weapons and tools was obsidian. Three obsidian mines were found in the Carpathian Basin, at Tarcsal, Tokay and Csitar, where large numbers of tools were manufactured. By natural progression the population increased and this area was densely populated in the Bronze Age. Elek Fényes writes that the trade routes for obsidian and salt began in the Carpathian Basin and that amber, shell and silk routes crossed the Carpathian Basin. It is a known fact that trade routes always passed through populated areas.[17]

The main requirement of the economical production of an article is that the raw material should be worked close to the place it was mined, thereby reducing the expense of transportation. This was all the more important in an era when the finished product was transported by carriage on bad roads. The amulets found at Tartaria in Rumania, (formerly Tatarlaka, Hungary), are proof that civilization originated in Transylvania. An ancient form of writing on these amulets, which date back to 5000 B.C., places the discovery of writing in Transylvania rather than in Sumer. Similarly the invention of the wheel can be credited to the ancient people of the Carpathian Basin. "The earliest certain evidence for a wheeled vehicle comes from the pottery model of a wagon found at Budakalász in Hungary, in a Baden Culture burial of about 2900-2400 B.C."[18]

Zsófia Torma tells us that this wagon was a "burial wagon" in which the people of the Carpathian Basin used to send their loved ones to the afterlife, just as the Vikings sent their dead on their journey in ships.[19] She points out that, according to the research of Nandor Fettich and Stuart Piggott, many wagons have been found in the Carpathian Basin and in Mesopotamia. This would indicate that the people who migrated from the Carpathian Basin not only travelled by wagon but also brought with them their burial customs to Mesopotamia.

John Dayton says: "It is also curious that the horse and the first wheeled vehicles (probably pulled by oxen) also appeared in Europe during the early part of the Third Millennium, perhaps about 2800 B.C. The horse is of the Asiatic type, the Tarpan or the Przewalski horse, and so it appears that the farmers and pastoralists who spread into Europe during the Fourth Millennium with horses, originated in the steppes of southern Russia or central Asia, and not necessarily in the Near East."[20] He mentions that in 1950, Piggott pointed out that a domesticated horse appears with the Copper Age in Hungary, with the Tiszapolgar/Baden culture.

Calvin Gebhart, in The Races of Mankind, states that the Szeklers are the oldest and purest branch of the Magyars. Elemer Csobánczi says that the ancient populace of the Carpathian Basin has survived to the present day in such groups as the Kalotaszeg Magyars, the Szeklers of Erösd, the Barkok and the Torockok.[21]

In the Bronze Age, because of over-population and drought, some of the Proto-Szeklers and Proto-Magyars migrated from the Carpathian Basin in carriages and they populated territories which at that time were not populated or just sparsely populated. They carried with them their ancient culture and technical knowledge, their religious views, customs, legends and folktales and, in different eras, when they were in distress, they returned to their ancient land under different names and found refuge in the Carpathian Basin. They even came back as conquerors or returned to give help to their brothers who were in trouble in their ancient land, for example, the Avars returned to help the Huns and the Magyars returned to aid the Avars.

Modern unbiased linguists appear to prove the Sumerian-Magyar connections. Sir Leonard Woolley, in the lowest cultural level of the city of Ur, discovered well-developed bronze objects which had no primitive characteristics. This indicates that a new ethnic group appeared in this territory and brought with them the knowledge of bronze metallurgy. In the upper and topmost levels, the bronze artifacts completely disappeared, according to Woolley. Etelka Toronyi explains that, at that time, a new conquest or war cut off the route to the territory from which the Sumerians were obtaining the tin, necessary for the manufacture of bronze. John Dayton says: "Glazing dies out in Mesopotamia after the conquest of Babylon and Persia by Alexander, to reappear with the Parthians in the first century B.C."[22] The ethnic group of people who carried with them the knowledge of the process of making bronze were the ancestors of the Szeklers, the Proto-Szeklers. This is proven by the fact that the bronze objects found in Sumer were completely identical in composition to those of the Carpathian Basin. The spiral motif, which is so characteristic of the Carpathian Basin bronze objects, can also be found on the bronze artifacts of the Sumerians. Every stage in the development of bronze can be found in the Carpathian Basin. This is why we can state that the Szekler emigrants took with them the knowledge of the production of bronze to Mesopotamia.

Constantine Porphyrogenitus writes: "Those Magyars who left Etelköz and travelled east are called Sabirs"[23]

In the second millennium B.C., the war between Babylon and Assyria took place on the territory of the Sabirs in Mesopotamia. In the time of Hammurabi, the horse was introduced as a means of waging war with chariots and horsemen. At that time, a well-equipped group of equestrian nomads, whose origin was unknown, appeared in Mesopotamia from Central Asia. They were the Scythians and Turanians whose main strength was the cavalry. Hammurabi adopted the custom of using the horse and chariot from the Kassites. The implementation of this new way of making war must have had great importance because Hammurabi, in his writings, boasted of the numbers of horses and chariots he possessed. When Hammurabi lost power, the equestrian Kassites took over and remained for almost 500 years on this territory, which we now call the Babylonian empire. The Kassites called their empire KUR-TEN-IZ, the country of TENIZ. Their strength was their superior cavalry. The Kassites divided their empire into territories inhabited by equestrian tribes. Their center was the city of Assur on the bank of the River Zab. In the Sumerian language, Assur was ASSZA-UR and means "horse-lord".

This is just a fragment of the enormous amount of written, not hypothetical material, which we have at our disposal. The evidence found in the Carpathian Basin and in the South allows us to conclude that one group of the ancient Magyar-speaking people, who migrated out of the Carpathian Basin towards the south, settled in the present territory of Italy, as Etruscans, establishing Etruria. We can demonstrate numerous examples of such settlements, during the migration of peoples who spoke agglutinative languages, in prehistory as well as in recorded history. If we speak of a migration from the south towards the north, that can only mean a resettlement or homecoming. The data does not show any Finno-Ugric origins. The connections with the existing Finno-Ugric languages do not indicate that the Magyars originated from the Manszi people, but rather indicate that they lived together with the two ancient peoples, or were their neighbors, or that the language similarity was a result of the spread of the Körös Culture. In a similar manner, the knowledge of bronze-working spread to Western Europe, which is why so many Magyar root-words are to be found in the European languages. The Magyar language was the giver and not the receiver. This is conceivable, given that their culture was superior to that of the surrounding peoples.

Unfortunately, we have to state that Dr. Alinei ignored the influence of the much older Körös Culture (not Slav or Illyrian) on the Villanova Culture, which is a later development. The Carpathian Basin should be examined as a geographical and ethnic entity. It is to be hoped that Dr. Alinei will take these points into consideration.

[1] Toronyi Etelka: A Kárpáti-medence a kulturák bölcsője és a magyarok őshazája. (The Carpathian Basin, the Cradle of Cultures and the Homeland of the Magyars) Buenos Aires,1974

[2] Briand, Jan: L'Age du Bronze, Paris, 1959; Toronyi, Etelka: Op.Cit.

[3] Fehérné, Walter Anna: Ékírástól a Rovásírásig, Buenos Aires, 1975.

[4] Dayton, John: Minerals, Metals, Glazing and Man, London 1978, p. 50

[5] Ibid. p.50

[6] Ibid, p. 75, 80

[7] Miske, Kalman: Die Bedeutung Velem St. Veist als Praehistorischen Guss-Statte mit Berücksichtigung der Antimon-Bronzfrage. Archiv für Anthropologie, Neue Folge, Braunschweig, Vol.2, part 2, 1904, pp.124-128.; Dayton: Op.Cit.

[8] Dayton, John: Op.Cit. p.66

[9] Ibid: p.72

[10] Ibid: p.142

[11] Csobánczi, Elemér: Ősturanok, Garfield, N.J.p.55-56; Burne, A. R.: Minoans, Philistines and Greeks, London, 1930, p. 78.

[12] Childe, Gordon: The Bronze Age, p.29; Csobánczi, Elemer: Op. Cit. p. 53

[13] Dayton, John: Op. Cit. p. 122

[14] lbid: p. 161

[15] Ibid: p. 163

[16] Howells, William W.: "Homo Erectus", 1966; Human Ancestors, Scientific American, 1979, p.85

[17] Fényes, Elek: Magyar geológia szótár

[18] Dayton, John: Op.Cit. p.179

[19] Torma, Zsófia: Sumer Nyomok Erdélyben, Buenos Aires, 1972, p.202

[20] Dayton: Op. Cit. p. 178

[21] Csobánczi, Elemér: Op. Cit. p. 51

[22] Dayton, Op. Cit. p.46

[23] Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De Administrando Imperii. 38.; Zakar: Op. Cit. p.48


I has started this article because I myself has been very surprised when I has found these datas about the paleolictic roots of my mother language (yes, I am a hungarian). Simply, I wanted to share the informations with those of you who are mayhapes interests in it and I tried to select mostly non-hungarian opinions for you about the interesting merits of the language (which merits seems to be able to modify the thinking methods of the brain and to increase highly the consciousness on many level from logic/creativity to communicate between hungarian speakers the human emotions much more clearly). It has been an added surprise to me when I have realised: maybe – maybe – the language has these merits because its roots had been created by the original European (cro-magnonian) civilisers.
Laura has given a link above:
…a sub-link in it has some mixed words about the hungarian language. I copy here some words from it (sorry, it will repeat Grimm and Ebersberg who I quoted before from another source but it also other quoted such as Bain:
“Hungarian has no gender, nor any word to express the idea "to have" as an auxiliary verb. Pronounced, it is perfectly phonetic'. The language possesses one peculiarity unknown in most other languages: the power of expressing a complete sentence (subject, verb. object) with a single verbal conjugation. For example: szeretlek (I love you); látom (I see him, her or it); verem (I strike him, her or it). One verb can also express a sentence with an indefinite object: szeretek, látok, verek which mean simply "I love," "I see," "I strike." This defining of verbal action gives the language great exactness of meaning coupled with extraordinary conciseness, making an objective pronoun with the verb unnecessary. In the illustration of this quality note below,. how concise the poem in its original Hungarian is, as compared to its English language translation. “
“ R. Nisbet Bain, a savant with the British Museum who was extraordinarily proficient in languages, once described a Magyar sentence as "a miracle of agglutinative ingenuity."
Ebersberg, a famous Austrian linguist, stated that "the construction of the Hungarian language is as if it had been created by a task force of linguists striving for conciseness, regularity, harmony and clarity."
Last, but not least, one of the world's greatest philologists, Jakob Ludwig Karl Grimm, recommended Hungarian as the ideal universal language.
To those who happen to know Hungarian. congratulations!”

And here lies my main message to you.
Shijing has questioned before: „I am curious to know what your main point is, and how this is relevant to the other things being discussed here?”
My answer is two-folded. At first, even the book of Laura (The Secret History of the World) has theorising about the real european originators of the civilisation (they are the ’cro-magnonians’) and as I now somewhere it is mentioned even in this Forum. Maybe these new informations are interesting addendums to that theory… (especially because) At second: I hadnt find disscussion about the hungarian language here before and it has given me the tip that most of you hasnt even notes about its interesting ancient roots and – most importantly, according to my opinion! – about its manifold qualities to the thinking/consciousness processes of the human brain. Myself, I hasnt easy way to prove these to you because my birth-language is hungarian: yes, I have heard many times from foreigners that our language one of the (or the!) most difficult to learn for them but I havent heard many years about the manifolds exceptional merits of it until I havent read some foreigner birth-languaged experts’ (incl. linguistics’) opinions regarding its plain-hidden wonders.
I think: If any of yours – I mean , if even one of yours – has seems to find the possibility of serious self-improvement in learn hungarian… and – most importantly – after when he/she has mastered the language and will find that it has really and significantly improved his/her thinking processes (as many quoted person has declared this from scientists to any others from the previous eras) then I have pleased because I has been a ‘helping signpost’ for those fellow spiritual traveller(s). Even, it wont be important that I pleased or not: the paramount importance will be the favorable result of the use of this pre-language on you – your improved consciousness.

To Shijing:
Until 1993 there has been the public opinion inside the borders of Hungary (based on some mis-massed, confusing theory) that the hungarian/szekely rune script has derived from the Old Turkish script. In 1993 Géza Varga has published his work (english-titled as: The Origin of the Hunnish Runic Writing). The book has changed the official viewpoint: now, the officially approved origin on the szekely runic script is that „unidentified, undeclared”. But sadly, tha mainstream schoolbooks - and it seems, for some reason, wikipedia also - has using the outdated datas about it, yet… (If you roll the page, below you will find the english languages preface to the (english versioned) book).
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