The many I's and posting on the forum.

eternusphoenix

Padawan Learner
I haven't made many posts on the forum because after reading ISOTM and getting a very basic understanding of the hundreds of different I's within my being at once, I became unsure of which I is speaking. I've made posts where I will say one thing that feels right at the time and then have gone back and said, "No, wait a second "I" didn't mean to say that, that was a false "I" speaking." I would then go back and make another post correcting the first post. I find this quite frustrating and I caved in to my predator and stopped communicating. I want to change this and I don't want to cave in to my predator anymore.

I want to be understood but how can I be understood if I can't even communicate how I really feel without having these "I's" who are king for the moment that proceed to interfere & interrupt what I'm truly trying to convey?

I see that the network is absolutely necessary in discovering the many "I's" in oneself and so maybe I just need to take it slow and do the best I can.

Any feedback is more than welcome and encouraged.
 
eternusphoenix said:
I haven't made many posts on the forum because after reading ISOTM and getting a very basic understanding of the hundreds of different I's within my being at once, I became unsure of which I is speaking. I've made posts where I will say one thing that feels right at the time and then have gone back and said, "No, wait a second "I" didn't mean to say that, that was a false "I" speaking." I would then go back and make another post correcting the first post. I find this quite frustrating and I caved in to my predator and stopped communicating. I want to change this and I don't want to cave in to my predator anymore.

Hi eternusphoenix,

Well you have made a start right here by making this post. One of the main benefits of posting is that you will get the feedback of the network, who are able to perceive our different "I's" in a way that we cannot see in ourselves. It is really just our own self importance that causes us to worry about how we are perceived, if we are "right", if we are being one particular "I" or another. At our stage of develpment, we can't really see our own programs and "I"s, nor can we determine what is or is not our false personality. That can only be seen over time through the efforts of the network.

I want to be understood but how can I be understood if I can't even communicate how I really feel without having these "I's" who are king for the moment that proceed to interfere & interrupt what I'm truly trying to convey?

All of us are posting with different "I"s all the time because we are not one unified true I. We can't be anything else right now, so we just have to communicate without knowing what our true "I" would actually want to convey.

I see that the network is absolutely necessary in discovering the many "I's" in oneself and so maybe I just need to take it slow and do the best I can.

Any feedback is more than welcome and encouraged.

I think that just working towards making posts about topics you are interested in, without worrying too much about how you are perceived would be a way to move forward. And you've made a good beginning by posting about your concerns, bringing the predator's thoughts into the light.
 
Hi eternusphoenix.

As manitoban said, you've made a start right here. You're being honest and being honest with yourself is imho the first step towards personal development and soul growth. As Shakespeare wrote in Hamlet: This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

There's a good quote from Dan Millman's book "Way of the Peaceful Warrior" that imo perfectly explains what I want to convey to you here: "You haven't yet opened your heart fully, to life, to each moment. The peaceful warrior's way is not about invulnerability, but absolute vulnerability- to the world, to life, and to the Presence you felt. All along I've shown you by example that a warrior's life is not about imagined perfection or victory; it is about love. Love is a warrior's sword; wherever it cuts, it gives life, not death."

Have fun in learning! ;)
 
Hi eternusphoenix,

I thought you need to be congratulated with this post of yours!

It seems, you discovered within yourself a burning question, which you could develop into a real experience of work related friction to help you grow. You apparently also noticed some considerable differences inside yourself between essential or core items and foreign installments of a more superficial and clearly programmed nature. This is real progress, I think.

A strategy that worked for me in that situation was [and still is], to keep trying to observe all those little i's that come to the fore or step up the plate and sort them out on what you yourself consider to be your more positive sides - but without really being judgemental about any of them. More in a detached manner so to speak, in order to reach a more objective view. Just try to observe their innate potential for growth in a desired direction related to your immediate aims.

Subsequently, once you have got them sorted out one way or the other and catalogued them you could try to strengthen the more promising little i's and gradually make them link together into strategic alliances as it were, to curtail and manage the foreign installments and programmes (the so called predator's mind) which seek to dominate you or your behaviour in their own limited ways. That's where the friction will occur.

Continued self observation will give you the necessary clues to the way forward with this and will allow you to make tailor made efforts specifically yours to make. There are no 'one size fits all' solutions for this endeavour.

Also, follow the suggestions of manitoban and Denis (nice appropriate little quotes!) with which I fully concur.

Here are a few relevant pages of the cassiopedia glossary with additional information (just in case you wouldn't have read them already):

http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Aim
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Essence
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Fusion
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Heating_the_Crucible
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Little_I's
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Magnetic_Center
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Orchestra_Metaphor
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Personality
http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Real_I

Hope this helps you a bit along the way.
 
Hi eternusphoenix.

What specific differences have you noticed between what you said the first time and what you've corrected about it?
 
Wow, thank you manitoban, Denis, Palinurus for the wonderful feedback. I feel like I'm starting to get it. This helps a lot.

Hi Bud,

The best example that I can give off hand is on page 2 of the Tool - Parabola thread that I commented on:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22987.15.html

Looking at my comments on the thread now, I see that there were not very many differences between the two posts. I was still caught up in my emotional center when I posted the second time. When I posted the second time on the thread, I felt the need to correct myself because in the first post I made an over generalization that was completely mechanical and untrue. It was the "I" of self importance talking in the first post. In the second post, it was all about the "I" that encourages beating one's self down.

That's what I see. If you see something different, please let me know.
 
eternusphoenix said:
...in the first post I made an over generalization that was completely mechanical and untrue. It was the "I" of self importance talking in the first post. In the second post, it was all about the "I" that encourages beating one's self down.

That's what I see. If you see something different, please let me know.

I don't necessarily see anything different, I was just recalling Ouspensky and Nicoll's comparing of the "I's" to the swings of a pendulum in order to convey the idea that Self-remembering is done at the point between swings (between the different I's). I was just wondering if you were aware of that and if so, did you find it useful.
 
Hi, eternusphoenix. You've been given very good feedback already. Just wanted to add that we're all in the same boat, so to speak. Some of us may be in different locations or different levels of the boat, but we're all working on identifying our programs / mechanical behaviors. It's an ongoing process that gets easier with time and struggling with them on an ongoing basis.

By participating more, posting more to topics that interest you, as was suggested by manitoban, without caring so much how you'll be perceived, you'll have more opportunities to discover more programs. Some programs we discover ourselves and may be able to keep them in check, but many we ourselves won't be able to see. Once another program is identified and pointed out by the network, it's a big step toward not being as much under it's influence and with time and effort struggling against its mechanical affects, slowly, step by step, we are freed from more and more of them.

For a long time the mechanical small "I's" are pretty much always in control, but by continuing to Work on observing and struggling against them, we slowly strengthen and grow our essence at the expense of false personality instead of continuing the opposite. It's an ongoing process and the efforts and struggle must be continued to separate the true from the false, the higher from the lower. And since it can't be done alone, posting more helps you with more opportunities to see yourself and your programs from feedback, and helps others with similar struggles and issues at the same time.

The important thing is to not be judgmental and to keep Working on yourself with a degree of detachment / non-identification and the help of the wider perspective of the entire network. Since you took another step in that direction here, I acknowledge it and encourage you to continue. Hope this helps.
 
Bud said:
I don't necessarily see anything different, I was just recalling Ouspensky and Nicoll's comparing of the "I's" to the swings of a pendulum in order to convey the idea that Self-remembering is done at the point between swings (between the different I's). I was just wondering if you were aware of that and if so, did you find it useful.

I'm quite sure that I need to re-read ISOTM. When I first read it, I wasn't in the best of places on multiple levels. I'm still figuring out how to be an effective obyvatal so that I can effectively do the work. Do you remember the page number that this specific portion was on? I'll look for a thread on self remembering for further reference. I remember that self remembering is supposed to be done both under a constant state of observation and yet at the same time allowing the machine/programs to run its course so that they can be seen. At this point in time, my self-remembering has amounted to observing myself any time the emotional center gets out of hand. Out of the three types of mechanical existence outlined, I am currently the emotional man.

My computer is currently about to walk off into the sunset. I'm in the process of of getting another one and when I do, I will be on here posting much more.

SeekinTruth, Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. I feel honored to be apart of this extended family sincerely seeking the truth no matter what flavor it comes in. It is a blessing to have found this forum.

One step at a time is one thing I am still learning. Thank you!
 
eternusphoenix said:
Bud said:
I don't necessarily see anything different, I was just recalling Ouspensky and Nicoll's comparing of the "I's" to the swings of a pendulum in order to convey the idea that Self-remembering is done at the point between swings (between the different I's). I was just wondering if you were aware of that and if so, did you find it useful.

I'm quite sure that I need to re-read ISOTM. When I first read it, I wasn't in the best of places on multiple levels. I'm still figuring out how to be an effective obyvatal so that I can effectively do the work. Do you remember the page number that this specific portion was on? I'll look for a thread on self remembering for further reference. I remember that self remembering is supposed to be done both under a constant state of observation and yet at the same time allowing the machine/programs to run its course so that they can be seen. At this point in time, my self-remembering has amounted to observing myself any time the emotional center gets out of hand. Out of the three types of mechanical existence outlined, I am currently the emotional man.

I am not sure that ISOTM contains the description of self-remembering that Bud is referring to - but I could be wrong and let Bud clarify that.

Your description of self-remembering is basically on the right track as far as I understand it. Self remembering is basically about paying attention and witnessing everything that is going on internally and externally. Here is a somewhat long thread devoted to the topic of self-remembering. You would see that there are quite a few misconceptions related to this subject which have been discussed in the thread.
 
eternusphoenix said:
I see that the network is absolutely necessary in discovering the many "I's" in oneself and so maybe I just need to take it slow and do the best I can.

Yes, what you said above there is the way to go I think.

What you're noticing is one of the very useful effects of sharing on the forum, the fact that we do get to look back at what we just wrote, or wrote yesterday, or last week or whenever and see those words in a whole new light. So many times I' would hover over the "post" button in a 'should I shouldn't I' mode, always trying to second guess what the reaction would be! Is it okay, would it be seen as wrong, silly or whatever. In the end, it's only by posting that we get the chance to know for sure and so learn in the process.

If one is sincere, the experience of posting can create right conditions for work on oneself. In doing so we can learn more about our many little 'I's through the process of discussion, including those that would rather we stay as we are.
 
eternusphoenix said:
Do you remember the page number that this specific portion was on? I'll look for a thread on self remembering for further reference.

Obyvatel is correct about the idea originating from another source.

I'm posting an excerpt for you to read if interested, but first a warning:

Take the info in the quote with a grain of salt until other forum members have a chance to comment on it. The last time or two I posted from this source I was cautioned to watch out for deviations from Gurdjieff's "line of force". I still don't understand "line of force" as used on here yet, (or if I do I must understand it a different way) so I've not been back to 'crack the book' until now. Maybe something will still be useful, though.

From: Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, Volume 5, 'round about pg. 1562:

The method of the Work is to withdraw the feeling of I from the 'I' which for the moment is using your telephone and shouting irritably at the whole world. Let us suppose you have just returned from lunch at the delightful house of Mrs X. Before you were there you were having a domestic row and your telephone was uttering the most appalling statements. Having arrived you got into your social 'I's. You were exceedingly entertaining. You then returned home and you continued to have your row. If you are going to tell me that this is one and the same 'I' at work in you, I cannot believe you.

As you know, through the action of buffers in us, the 'I's are shut off from each other so that we do not see the inner contradictions going on. Somebody who knows Mrs X. comes in and you begin to speak about Mrs X. 'I's that love scandal have got much to say here; so then you are in different 'I's. Now all this takes place quite smoothly and you see no contradictions, and yet quite different 'I's have used your telephone—that is, your mouthpiece. Just seeing these contradictions begins to weaken buffers. Some people have such strong contradictions in them, which they are unaware of, that they can never hope to get near any unity of Being, and, not observing these contradictions, they remain without any power of Self-Observation. That is to say, they cannot alter themselves because they take everything as I.

They do not draw the feeling of I little by little out of these things that the Work urgently stresses they should do, as, for example, from negative emotions. They ignore far too much what the Work teaches them to observe, and are afraid to look into themselves, possibly through early religious fears which hold their understanding captive and thus impede their development. They know nothing of inner separation.

In full Self-Remembering the feeling of I is taken out of the machinery of 'I's. When you are in that state you can see the working of the machinery of 'I's going on like printing presses beneath you. You wonder how you ever took it for yourself. Then you identify— and become it all again.

The final thing that I will briefly remind you of is that if your name is John Smith you have got to observe John Smith and be less and less John Smith. At present John Smith is your greatest enemy even though he is covered with medals and surrounded by the applause of the world.

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The external side of a man—turned towards life—the outer man composed of little 'I's, teeming and talking, in the small parts of centres—cannot possibly draw force from both ends of the pendulum swing. These 'I's swing with it. They have no anchor that holds. It is only Observing I that does not swing with the pendulum; and that has to be strengthened. I explained elsewhere that this means that one's relationship to the Observing I must be strengthened for it is not anchored to the waves.

In short, one must practise, and daily at least, the exercise of observing oneself impartially without the soapy foam of self-justifying. As we are talking of the emotional pendulum, and taking it as one pendulum for the sake of simplification, it must now be pointed out that the observation of one's emotional state must not be limited to the emotional state of the moment.

[...]

...in self-study by means of self-observation we find it very difficult to observe that any particular emotional state is connected with its opposite, or what its opposite is.

A particular emotional state appears to be a thing in itself that has nothing to do with any other state.

Now the inability to realize that it has, is one factor in rendering us so peculiarly helpless in face of our emotional life and so much under its sway. We are unconscious just where the pendulum, in its return journey, gains momentum, and, passing the mid-point, swings into the sphere of influence of the opposite emotional state—apparently, indeed, into another country. We fail to see any connection. There is, in fact, no logical connection. The two countries seem totally dissimilar.
That is exactly why the Work tells us that we have to observe the whole swing from one extreme to the other in order to discover our particular opposites. This means an increase in consciousness of which we have often spoken before. An increase in consciousness in regard to our emotional life through the making of the opposites conscious by following the swing in Time, and so seeing how they are connected, shifts consciousness gradually towards the middle zone of the pendulum, to a third place lying between the opposites which becomes receptive of new emotions not on the pendulum. We acquire a middle. Let me add one thing.

If you can observe the pendulum through a full swing you will be sometimes astonished at what the opposite of any particular state turns out to be and so realize why you could not get released.
 
good trhead... just felt like asking about some observations i made while reading ISOTM.

self observing and the hole thing about our many bodies (i haven't finished the book yet so i might be very off and the answers are at the end) it would kinda seem to me like the body should be more or less be taken as a tool? sure you need to take good care of your tools and allways check where you put them otherwise someone else is off with them but the tools don't do the work the wielder does. Like a car, it doesn't drive itself, the driver does. right?

and another way i've started seeing it is like looking after a child. almost like the body is the child, always on the move and not really thinking about the consequences - but the trouble with that is when youre looking after a child you will sometimes take up a paper and not really pay attention to what his doing and get in all kinds of trouble when you're not paying attention.

just an impression i've gotten so far. I'm trying to make it simpler and more accessible through iterpretation when trying to explain to my gf what im constantly reading:) and thats like the most simple way of puting it. please correct me if i'm tottally lost here:)
 
timmyman said:
self observing and the hole thing about our many bodies (i haven't finished the book yet so i might be very off and the answers are at the end) it would kinda seem to me like the body should be more or less be taken as a tool?

The Tibetans sometimes describe the body as a vehicle, which is in line with Gurdjieff's metaphor of the carriage.
 
Thank you all for the feedback and information. I'm still taking in/integrating what it means to self-remember and do the work. I'm working to correct the fact that my knowledge got way ahead of my being. I'm thinking that I need to take a step back and dig into the psychology books on the recommended reading list so that I have a proper foundation for future readings of the esoteric works. I know my place now and I feel comfortable here in a way that I had not before.

I'm excited to learn and grow with all of you.

:cool2:
 

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