The New History of Mankind: Who Are we? What are we? How did we get here?


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I've read Witzel's History of World Mythology as well as Steggast's work Plato the Prehistorian. And I've been finding this works to be very humbling. The former connects things as innocuous as Eeny, meeny, miny, moe to extremely ancient origins, with the mythic tropes visibly repeating in a genealogy stretching millennia back into our past. The latter speaks very plainly of ancient mystery cults and religions, and how philosophically their archaic ideas from as far back as the sixth millennium have yet made their way into the works of Plato and the syncretic mystery schools still popular around the time of Christianity's emergence.

I suppose my favorite chapter was about Zagreus in Plato: Prehistorian. While reading a bit for this I stumbled upon this video about the religious history of the God Dionysus, which has gone trough many iterations all the way from 6000 BC in the Iranian plateau to the Ptolemies of the late Hellenic age.

The earliest iteration of this "type" of god was Zagreus, a son of Zeus and Persephone, who was destined to be the future king of the Gods. However this was sabotaged when the Titans managed to lure Zagreus away with toys of various kinds, and hunted him down. He transformed into several animals in a Protean fashion to escape, finally being captured and dismembered as a bull. In one retelling Athena rescued his heart and Zeus planted it ether in a statue of Zagreus or in Semele (the mortal mother of the much later Dionysus). This Zagreus was often depicted as a bull and often (as with the later Dionysus) associated with the leopard, which was the garb of the priestly class when reenacting the hunting rituals depicted in some of the layers of Catal Huyuk.

To me the symbol of Zagreus symbolizes a loss of destiny, being deceived by a rival clan of Gods and dismembered as a bull (both of which are common Laurasian tropes). In a broader sense I also find connections between this and the serpent deceiving a woman into introducing death into the world, which is an ancient Gondwanan myth (also depicted in the Bible). According to the C's this was the first step by which the 4D STS corrupted the minds and wills of people for the first time, converting them into STS. In the myth of Zagreus I see this as the Titans deceiving the child Zagreus with toys (temptation), and transforming into animals to escape (converting or being reduced to an animal nature).

The one thing I have trouble figuring out is why Zagreus received the name he did, because it means Great Hunter. But he is in fact hunted and killed. 🤔

To an extent this is brought into the Dionysian theme, particularly with the mystery school's purported emphasis on wine, revelry, music, and inducing madness (watch the video for more on this).

I haven't yet read When Zarathustra Spoke, but Steggast does provide hints at what this movement accomplished in its time.

Steggast remarks on the confusion of names and various narratives surrounding some of the Gods:

There are several possible explanations for this lack of consensus, the most obvious being simply the great age of many myths . Another is probably the slanting, embroidering, and misunderstanding of which the poets are accused in the quotation above. A third would be the different traditions from which the myths originally sprang, Greek (Inda-European) or pre-Greek, about which more will be said later . Yet another source of mythic confusion may be the alleged tendency among the Greeks to attribute the deeds of an earlier hero or god to a later one of the same name. Forty-three heroes of the name Herakles are said to have been enumerated by Varro; 132 Cicero (Nat. Dear. III.16) and Diodorus Siculus (III.74) each counted several; but popular Greek tradition knew only one, the great Theban hero to whom it referred all deeds associated with the name of Herakles. Of the gods, three Dionysoi were said to have been hymned at Eleusis: first Zagreus, son of Persephone, then Bromios, son of Semele, and lastly Iacchos , the Eleusinian Dionysos (Nonnus XLVIII.958-68); but Greek mythology generally makes no distinction among them. The same is true of Apollo. Five different gods of that name were identified by Clement of Alexandria and Ampelius, drawing on a common source which is believed to have been Aristotle,132 but all were one Apollo to most Greeks .

Steggast has the idea of using Orpheus and his mystery school as an example of one of the means by which older rituals and Gods may be reformed and revivified.

There are, fortunately, a few ancient models from which one might work. One, the earliest attested example of religious reform in Greece, comes to us with the enigmatic figure of Orpheus, the legendary musician whose song could tame wild beasts, move stones and trees, and even abrogate the laws of Hades in his descent in quest of Eurydice. However mythicized Orpheus had become by the sixth century B. C., he is generally believed to have been a real person, a religious leader whose teachings were to influence Plato as well as Pythagoras.

Little is known of the life of Orpheus; some scholars believe he was born in Thrace; others see Crete as the home of Orphism, if not of its founder, perceiving in Crete that "strange blend of Egyptian and primitive Pelasgian which found its expression in Orphic rites." 172 It is unlikely that he lived before the late second millennium B.c.,* but it will nevertheless be worth our while to consider the Orphic reform, insofar as it is known, before examining signs of a similar phenomenon in the upper levels at • Diodorus Siculus (VII. 1) put Orpheus at around 1300 B.c.; others have dated him to as late as the sixth century B.c .

We obviously cannot hope to do justice in this space to an extraordinarily complex system of thought which many scholars place at the root of Greek philosophy. But as it is the religion of Zagreus-Dionysos with which Orpheus is commonly associated, and as he is said to have revealed the "true spiritual meaning of the old religion," A brief review of Orphic principles may enlarge our understanding not only of the general pattern of religious reform, but also of the doctrines that informed the Cretan, and possibly the Catal, brand of mysticism.

The Orphic Religion

What Orpheus found, in Crete or Thrace or both, was a form of Dionysian religion that evidently sought transcendence through maddening music, dance, wine, and, at the pitch of excitement generated by these devices, the rending of certain animals. What Orpheus did, it is said, was to replace the licentiousness of this cult with asceticism. Retaining the Dionysian idea that man might become god, Orphism held that abstinence and purification rather than physical intoxication were the means by which divinity was to be achieved . Not only was the drunkenness of the Thracian cult denounced, but also its excesses of animal sacrifice. The Orphic ideal, in short, was a Dionysos "tamed, and clothed, and in his right mind-in a word, Apollinised ."

Although he is most often associated with Dionysos, Orpheus is said to have been a priest of Apollo, whom he accounted the greatest of gods and identified with the sun. The reforming principle is itself considered to be Apollonian . To transform orgiastic rites through order and reason, to bring the solar principle to the lunar, to emphasize the unity (monotheism) rather than the diversity (polytheism) of god- these are all traditional ways of expressing the spirit of reform. The elevation of fire above the other elements is also Apollonian (and Orphic); according to Plutarch :

"God's transformation into fire is called Apollo by reason of its unity, or Phoebos by reason of its pure and unpolluted character ; but as to his turning into wind, water , earth, stars, births of plants and animals, and his ordering of the universe in general, they hint at his suffering and transformation by speaking of a certain rending-asunder and dismemberment; they call him Dionysos , Zagreus. . . ." (On the Ei. 388-89)

One interesting tidbit I found was in Plato: Prehistorian. The splayed geometric figure characterized as the Queen of the Underworld and the potential precursor to Persephone by Steggast was in Sweatman's Prehistory Decoded identified as a bear, and the constellation of Virgo with the spot at the center indicating the sun of the summer solstice (which does line up with Virgo in the time period the symbol is dated to: ~7000 B.C. I thought this was interesting considering the hibernation trait of bears is somewhat similar to Persephone's own scheduled time in the underworld.



FOTCM Member
Interesting, whitecoast.


The one thing I have trouble figuring out is why Zagreus received the name he did, because it means Great Hunter. But he is in fact hunted and killed. 🤔

You can have a look at this post by Vulcan59 on "the myth of Perseus, Medusa, and the Gorgons" and how David Warner Mathisen depicts the events in the heavens for possible answers (and his alternate videos may prove to help this). The Great Hunter, Orion, rises prior to Sirius (sometimes associated as his dog) and the son of Zeus connections between Zagreus and also Perseus.

"Zagreus (Greek: Ζαγρεύς) was sometimes identified with a god worshipped by the followers of Orphism, the “first Dionysus”, a son of Zeus and Persephone, who was dismembered by the Titans and reborn.

Note the Titans, and Set, Seth, Horus; sounds a little like Perseus and the Medusa, and also Osiris (married to ISIS) dismembered by son Horus/Seth (and told above by Mathisen).

I've not followed this through as it can be confusing, yet of Mathisen he writes about these matters and here it says:

And of course, Orion is absolutely critically important, especially as he pertains to the myth of Osiris and Set (also taken up in much greater detail in the Mathisen Corollary book).

Remember that Set (son of Osiris) and Seth (son of Adam/Eve in Biblical discourse - worshiped by the Jewish religion) - or Horus, was also the god of chaos which may be who became the hunter and killed the Great Hunter, Zagreus, possible a version of Seth's father?

Here is a map:



FOTCM Member
It might be helpful to find and lay out the myths the seem to go with Zoroastrianism. Especially about the cow and its possible relation to what itellsya mentioned regarding Çatalhöyük with its cow horns etc. Also, that may expose the primal myth of the death of the bull and how it then gave "birth" to the natural world which is represented in the Mithra Tauroctony iconography. Apparently, this was behind the paleolithic cave paintings, then, after the "wars", a warrior society emerged and things got wild for a bit - some of the Dionysian effects - and then, Zoroaster came along to reform the religion that had gone so far astray by trying to bring it back to its origins somewhat, though certainly introducing and justifying new features.

Here's a compilation of quotes from the recommended books as an introductory review on this topic.

From "When Zarathustra Spoke":

While the Vedic poets sang of cattle raids as admirable operations, profitably carried out by brave and adventurous men,28 Zarathustra held a different view. In the Gathas he speaks out against renegades who destroy the pasu~vira, the community of cattle and men. Gathering in bands, they devour what belongs to others and do harm to the life of the cow (Y. 32.12; 31:15). In another passage, the Soul of the Cow implores Ahura Mazda:

“Wrath and violence, harm, daring, and brutality have bound me!
I have no other pastor than you;
appear to me with good husbandry!” (Y. 29.1)

Most Zoroastrian scholars believe that this Gathic hymn is both metaphysical—an allegory for the suffering of the righteous man’s soul in its quest for “the good vision’’—and descriptive of the reality of a cattle raid from the point of view of its victims, portraying “the brutal carrying off of hapless cattle.’’28 As pictured by one authority: “Zarathustra, the Soul of the Cow, and the Ahuras represent a peace-loving, sedentary form of agriculture in which animal husbandry played an important role. Pitted against them are the wild, lawless nomads and persistent followers of the old ways, all worshippers of the Daevas.”

Çatal Höyük, c. 7300 - c. 6300 BC: an Indo-European Stronghold?

...Heads of bulls, molded from plaster but with actual horn cores, were often mounted on the surfaces of walls, and a “bull pillar,” a single mud-brick topped with a bull’s horns, became a popular icon in peak levels VII and VI. The extremes to which the fascination with cattle was carried at (Çatal Höyük is perhaps best exemplified in the chamber depicted in figure 35, where a row of seven horn cores of Bos primigenius were set into a “bull bench” that was surely used for other than domestic purposes. The excavators have not ventured an interpretation of this construction, but if some part of the Çatal tradition was not only Indo-European but more specifically Indo-Iranian, the bull bench may actually have served as an initiation couch.

According to Bruce Lincoln, an intense initiation was required for those who sought to join the ranks of the Indo-Iranian warrior bands, for the status of the warrior was “charged with magico-religious power and must be entered accordingly.”126 The close association of the Indo- Iranian warrior god with the bull suggests that the bull bench at (Çatal Höyük may have provided this kind of experience to the novice. As Lincoln further observes: “In a certain sense initiation was also a ritual death and rebirth and served to introduce the novice to his celestial counterparts, the warriors of the dead.”126 As in other PPNB sites, human skulls were frequently displayed in Çatal chambers (e.g., fig. 36).

From "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism"

From "The Origins of the World's Mythologies" by Witzel:

§ 3.1.5. Bull
This motif is further developed in the closely related version of a late Stone Age animal sacrifice (§ 3.6, § 7.2), mostly that of a bull. It appears as the second Indo-European version,130 which does not feature a giant or a hunted animal but a primordial bovine. Cases in point are the primordial Icelandic cow Audumla in the Edda and, more importantly, the Iranian primordial bull.131 The same idea is also found in a Vedic passage and, 132 importantly, in the Old Irish Tain Bo Cuailnge (4854–4919), telling of the great battle between two bulls. The victorious one, Denn Cuailnge, spread the remains of the other one, Finnbennach, all over Ireland. And, not to forget, Zeus in the form of a bull pursues Eurōpē, whose name means “the broad,” just like Vedic pṛthivī (earth). Its Greek linguistic counterpart, Plataiai, is a famous place-name in northern Greece, which area is also called Eurōpē and has given its name to the continent Europe.

The idea of bull sacrifice (cattle or buffalo) seems
prominent in the Mediterranean, Indian,133 and Austric world; its appearance in early Indo-Iranian texts may be due to such southern influences. If, however, this mytheme was already Indo-European,134 it could represent a later version of the myth of the primordial giant: it would be the preferred one of a largely pastoral people, such as the early Indo-Europeans. It is, then, not surprising that in Icelandic myth, a primordial cow (Audumla) licks the primordial giant (Ymir) out of the eternal ice, and her milk nourishes him (cf. Vǫluspá 3; Vafϑrūnismāl 21). The Indo-European myth has been reconstructed by Lincoln:135

There were a bull and two men, the twins Manu, first priest, and Yemos, first King. Manu sacrificed and dismembered Yemos, with whose body parts he formed the world; likewise, from the bull he created edible plants and domestic animals. Yemos became King of the realm of all Dead.136

This Indo-European “myth of creation” changed, as per Lincoln and Rafetta, with the various Indo-European peoples, until it became almost completely “disguised” by folklore and religion. Rafetta improbably maintains that this proto-myth underlies “all” Indo-European cosmologies, creation myths, and sacrifices, which she regards as an act of reunification of the divided cosmos.

In other parts of the globe, primarily in Southeast Asia and parts of eastern and Central India, it is the buffalo that plays this role.137 However, one may add that buffalo sacrifice and putting up the offered animals’ horns on temples are also found with the Tibeto-Burmese Newars of the Kathmandu Valley, and the customs are more widely spread in the Himalayas. Finally, the old Mediterranean tradition of bull chasing, sport, and sacrifice has to be taken into account (Neolithic Çatal Höyük, ancient Crete, and modern Spain). It is found in a wide belt, via the Nilgiris and Yunnan, up to Okinawa in Japan.

As will be discussed in more detail below (§ 7.1.2), emerging food production, especially agriculture, by necessity brought about certain shifts in the mythological system. The hunted animal of late Paleolithic Laurasian times was substituted by the slaughter of a domesticated animal, the bull. Therefore, it is not surprising that a Ṛgvedic hymn (3.38) can refer to the Great Bull in a cosmogonic context. This hymn was later assigned to the demiurge and war god Indra, who is often metaphorically described as a bull. In this hymn, the androgynous “older bull” (vṛṣabha) Asura, also called the “great hoary” bull, gives birth to or creates the world. He is in part identified with Heaven and Earth (Rodasī). The (younger) bull, Heaven/Sun, is called Asura Viśvarūpa.138

But a detailed painting at Lascaux, of c. 14,000 BCE, does not allow for such an easy diversion. The picture is that of a prostrate ithyphallic man, arms outstretched, with birdlike hands, and beak-like face. He lies below a wounded bison. Below him, a bird is perched on a vertical pole. A spear-thrower lies at the feet of the man. The huge bison bull looks back at a spear that has pierced him from anus to penis. This has opened the bull’s belly, and his intestines have spilled out and hang down to the ground.

We do not yet have actual proof of animal sacrifice during the Stone Age period209—perhaps with the exception of the Lascaux and nearby scenes of the bison bull and the “shaman”—but the same attitude toward the offering and sacrifice of bears is seen in the Stone Age plastic art of France. In the cave of Montespan,210 the body of a bear had roughly been fashioned out of clay. It was found draped with a bear’s pelt, with a bear’s head still attached, while another bear’s skull was found in front of this image.211 Some sort of bear cult is also seen in the Paleolithic enshrinements of bear skulls at Drachenloch in Switzerland,212 where the long bones of a bear were inserted into his mouth; and we can see its continuation in the (pre)modern circumpolar bear cult.

Circumpolar bear cult
The cult of the bear was (and still is)213 found in a wide range of lands,214 from the northern Scandinavian Saami (Lapp) to the Northeast Asian Ainu,215 the Inuit, and some North American Indians. In all of the modern circumpolar region, we can find a great similarity of ideas related to the bear, for
example, that the bear sucks his paws during hibernation.216 The bear walks upright, like humans, and is therefore compared with them; various peoples have concepts of shape-shifting. The bear therefore has many nicknames or is referred to by euphemisms due to taboo, such as the Indo-European “the brown one” (Engl. bear, Dutch bruin, German Meister Braun) or “the honey-licker” (Sanskrit madhulih, cf. Russian medved’).

Secretive language is used in its hunt, a practice common for much of Eurasia.217 When offered, he is killed with archaic instruments, a feature often found in rituals of any kind. Eurasian bear sacrificers are very apologetic about such killing, saying that it was not them but others or that it was the bear’s own fault (as in the Finnish epic Kalevala).218 Then, the offered bear is praised (as in North America), including the statement, “You were the first to die,”219 which is clearly reminiscent of the ancient Pangu/Puruṣa myth (§ 3.1.4), later on reflected by the epithets of the first mortal god, Yama, in Vedic India. As mentioned, the Ainu send him back (iyomante) to his divine ancestors. After the sacrifice, a sacrificial meal is held that is first restricted to men and then shared by all in an “eat all” orgy, a sort of sacred communion similar to the Christian one, with the consumption of the divine messenger’s blood and flesh.220

As further examples, we may compare the modern Gilyak
and,221 especially, the well-attested bear sacrifice of the Ainu, the iyomante festival,222 as well as bear hunting (kebokai by the matagi hunters). This is performed by the Japanese-speaking but Ainu-related population of northern Honshu in Tsugaru Prefecture.223 The rituals have many reminiscences with other old Eurasian types of rituals that will be indicated here in passing.224

The deities are visitors in animal form.225 Ultimately, the animal is the same as or a substitution for sacrificed humans (cf. the Vedic puruṣa) as well as for the deity itself (cf. the Germanic Odin, who, according to Odin’s Rune Song in the poetic Edda, hung on a tree for nine nights, offered by “himself to himself,” just as the Ṛgveda says [1.164.50]).226

The ritual lasts overnight,227 and the bear is slaughtered on the next day. He is strangled with logs, the same method that was used in the horse sacrifice in the Turkic Altai as late as a century ago. Suffocation is a typical (Vedic or Trobriand Islanders’) “innovation,” as it avoids the spilling of blood in killing the animal. The divine “visitor” is then dismissed, which is a feature typical for all Indo-European and Indian rituals, from the Vedic period down to modern pūjā. He is released from his body by sacrifice, in which he is offered to himself, actually on his own pelt. As mentioned this can again be compared with the self-sacrifice of Odin and the Vedic expression: “by the sacrifice the gods sacrificed the sacrifice,”
yajñena yajñam ayajanta devāḥ (RV 1.164.50, 10.90.16).

Finally, the bear’s head is set on a pole for his “sending away,” with which we may perhaps compare the Neanderthal bear cult. The custom has been kept in many traditions, for example, by Herodot’s Scythians putting up offered horses on poles, which is echoed by the Japanese haniwa clay figures of ancient burials that show the holes for such poles on their sides. Further there is the Finnish custom of depositing bear skulls on trees, and in the Himalayan Mountains buffalo horns are mounted on the walls of temples. There also were and still are some animal offerings at Japanese Shintō shrines.228

In sum, the recent Ainu and Tsugaru rituals point back to a time when the bear cult covered much of northern Eurasia. Many remnants of this tradition can be found in ancient and medieval European texts and customs, including perhaps the name of the Greek goddess Artemis or the Celtic Dea Artio of Bern in Switzerland (where a bear’s den is still kept in the center of town).229 Bearbaiting continued in England until 1835, and “dancing” bears are still seen in Turkey and India.230

The naming of some of our constellations should not be neglected either. In some Indo-European languages,231 we still find the early Stone Age designation “Great Bear” (Ursa Maior) or “bearess” (arktos, with cubs, in Greece). In Vedic India Ursa Maior was at first called “the Bears” (Ṛkṣāḥ; RV
.24.10), too, but it was soon substituted (under Mesopotamian influence?) by the “Seven Sages” (Sapta rṣayaḥ).232 In Finland, the Great Bear appears in a Kalevala legend.233 The ancient designation of these stars as “bear” has been substituted by the wheeled wagon, obviously only after its invention in Bronze Age times (Sumeria, before c. 3000 BCE) and its use as the asterism “the Great Wagon” (later, the Great Wain).

451. These concepts are perhaps best seen in Ṛgveda 3.38 (a hymn later assigned to Indra): the androgynous “older bull” Asura (cf. Iranian myth), the “great hoary” bull, gives birth to/creates the world; he is in part identified with Heaven and Earth (Rodasī), who were later separated; the (*younger) bull, Heaven/Sun, is also called Asura Viśvarūpa (a demon); Mitra and Varuṇa(?), the grandsons of Heaven, reign, served by the wind-haired Gandharvas.

From "Plato The Prehistorian" by Settegast:

A rather sweeping proposition, to be sure, but there are one
or two themes among the very rare examples of narrative art
in the Magdalenian collection that seem particularly reminiscent
of Iranian myth and rite. The first is shown at its best in the
famous Shaft painting at Lascaux, described by one investigator
as "the most striking scene in the entire cave." 229 The Shaft itself
is sixteen feet deep and evidently was negotiated by means of
a rope. At the bottom a small chamber is dominated by a painted
panel some six feet long (fig. 63). Artistically the painting offers
no challenge to the magnificent works in Lascaux's Axial Gallery;
many of the elements here are no more than sketched,
without color or substance. At the center lies a bird-headed or
bird-masked man drawn in stiff black lines. Below him a bird,
also schematically drawn and with a head precisely like that of
the man, is perched on a pole. On the right a bison rendered
in an unusual style appears to be badly wounded. He too is
perhaps recumbent; large black loops believed to be entrails
issue from his lower body, and his head is turned back in that
direction. A line with a barbed hook, which may or may not
represent the Bird-Headed Man's spear, lies across the body of
the bison. To the left a rhinoceros is shown moving away from
the scene. His belly, chest, and foreleg were never sketched in,
and the six black dots under his upraised tail are of uncertain
significance. Leroi-Gourhan believes that this animal may be
irrelevant to the main drama,2 38 but in the opinion of the Abbe
Breuil, it was the rhinoceros, and not the fallen man, that was
responsible for the goring of the bison. 262
Countless numbers of human beings had apparently descended
into the Shaft over the years, wearing and blackening
the stone at the lip of the chasm. A great many bone points, all
broken, and a number of small dishlike stone lamps lay below
the painted panel. Presumed to have been ritual offerings, these
objects add to the impression, generally shared by prehistorians,
that this celebrated chamber played a central role in the religious
life of those who visited Lascaux. The most intensive analysis
of the cave to date has led its authors to conclude with respect
to the Shaft:
Though it is as yet too early to understand the real meaning of
it, such consistency between the place, the wall decoration, and
the whole assemblage invites us to see in this unity the heart of
what was quite obviously a sanctuary. 240
Too early or not, few prehistorians have failed to offer an
explanation of the meaning of the Shaft painting (e.g., hunter
slain by bison, shamanic trance; the man's rigid phallus could
indicate either condition). None has been found convincing
enough for a consensus, however, or for that matter, worthy
of enshrinement at the heart of Lascaux. Hunting magic, at one
time the answer to all problems in interpreting rock art, also
seems to be an inadequate explanation; as Laming-Emperaire
pointed out, it is difficult to see how the Bird-Headed Man, if
indeed dead or wounded, could further the success of the hunt. 229
She found it more likely that figures such as these represent
"mythical beings who were perhaps connected in some way
with the history of the ancestors of the group." If LamingEmperaire
was on the right track, the scene portrayed here
may find its closest surviving counterparts in Inda-European
cosmogony . The composition in the Lascaux Shaft bears a provocative
resemblance to the world-creating death of Gayomart (the
Iranian First Man) and the Primordial Bull.
As told in the Persian Bundahisn, Gayomart and the bull lived
in a state of divine bliss until the evil principle broke into the
world, causing the death of the pair . When the bull died, its
marrow flowed forth to create all the nourishing and healing
plants; its semen was borne to the moon for purification and
thence to the creation of all species of animals. From Gayomart' s
body came the metals ( originally perhaps the mineral kingdom
as a whole); from his own seed, purified in the sun, sprang the
ten species of men.
We shall later find that the creation of the world out of the
body of a primeval anthropomorph, or of a slain bull, was not
limited to Inda-European traditions. But as Gayomart and the
bull have close counterparts in Scandinavian as well as Vedic
mythology, 72 many scholars believe that this theme, like that of
Yima's reign, was known to the Inda-European unity. (In the
Norse myth Ymir, who was also associated with a primordial
bovid, is slain and the earth made from his flesh, the water
from his blood, the mountains from his bones, etc. [Gylfaginning
6-8]; the sacrifice of the Vedic Purusa, a name which combines
the Sanskrit words for "man" and "bull," 244 was similarly generative
[Rig Veda].) It has further been suggested
that because of the greater conservatism of the Inda-Iranian
branch of the Inda-Europeans, the eastern versions may more
closely approximate the original myth. 243 And it is in fact the
Iranian account which seems most faithful to the scene in the
Lascaux Shaft.
...he may well have slain both man and bison. The pronounced
ithyphallic condition of the fallen man could signify not only
his moribund state but also the release of his seed, while the
effluent from the lower belly of the bison may denote his own
freed seminal substance, as well as or instead of his entrails.
(The barbed line across the body of the bison is in any event
oddly placed to be the man's spear and may depict a symbolic
line of force.) The Persian association of the xvarenah with bird
forms (as in Yima's loss of the Glory, above) suggests that the
bird's head or mask on the fallen man and the bird perched
below him may represent the immortal Glory which Gayomart
himself possessed. Finally, and not of least importance, the
slaying of the First Man and the Primordial Bull- the cosmogonic
act itself-would have been an eminently appropriate
subject for portrayal in the depths of the sanctuary at Lascaux.
The story describing the event depicted in the Shaft may
have played a major part in the oral tradition during the Early
and Middle Magdalenian periods; artistic variations on the
man-bison theme have been found at three other European sites,
dating from perhaps 17,000 to 12,000 B. C. 238 (Lascaux's paintings
were executed in the first half of the fifteenth millennium.) In
Persian mythology the death of the First Man did not prevent
the celebration of a Golden Age; the resplendent Yima was said
to be a descendant of Gayomart, five generations removed (Bundahisn
XXXV). However telescoped mythic time may be, if the
scene in the Shaft does represent the Inda-European cosmogony,
the reign of Yima and the Magdalenian Golden Age may in fact
have been one.
Accepting for the moment this hypothetical identity, we would
expect the decay of art and culture in Late Paleolithic southwest
Europe to have marked the fall of Yima (or of his line). It is in
this light, perhaps, that one should view the next, and almost
the only other, certain examples of narrative art in the Magdalenian
collection, apparently rendered later in the Paleolithic
period. 237 Of these two carved bone plaques, the one from Les
Eyzies (fig. 64a) shows nine small silhouettes of human figures
walking in file toward a bison. They either carry sticks or have
been "struck through" by signs of unknown meaning .265 The
other, from Raymonden (fig. 64b), depicts the head of a bison,
still attached to the spine, with the severed legs of the animal
in front. On either side human figures have again been schematically
drawn, one of which also appears to have lines extending
from his chest. According to one prehistorian: "To regard
this scene as depicting some magic rite connected with trapping,
or the ritual interment of an animal, is altogether far-fetched.
The men facing each other from either side of the animal's spine
are obviously 'faithful' present at the ceremony." 260
What sort of ceremony is not specified; we presume a sacrifice
is meant. Nor is the reason why only now, possibly quite late
in the Magdalenian day, does it seem to have been pictorially
represented. If this is not merely an accident of recovery, these
plaques may depict rites that had been newly instituted (or
perhaps made public) toward the end of the Magdalenian era.
We noted earlier that one of Yima' s alleged sins was giving the
flesh of cattle to the people to eat, which has been interpreted see page 107
as the establishing of ritualized slaughter of the bull. If the body
of the dismembered bison at figure 64b had been ceremonially
consumed by the men surrounding its remains , this was not a
dissimilar ritual. Precise dates are lacking , but it is possible that
these plaques were carved during the decline of prehistoric
Europe's Golden Age. Did the ceremony they depict anticipate
the end of Yima's reign?

Mithra and the Bull
The ceremonial consumption of a bull would later be typical
of many of the initiatory cults of antiquity, among them the
mysteries of the Iranian god Mithra, who in the eyes of some
Iraniologists was closely connected to the Yima cycle of myth. 442
If, through the institution of animal sacrifice, Yima did intend
to confer immortality upon his people (as claimed in the annotation
cited above), it would agree with the purposes of the
mysteries, which aimed at the divinizing, or the immortalizing,
of the individual.
The bull sacrifice in the Mithraic mysteries was apparently a
re-enactment of Mithra's mythic slaying of the bull that he had
captured in the wild. As reconstructed from Roman monuments,
Mithra had seized a wild bull by the horns and ridden
it until the animal was exhausted. He then carried the bull back
to his cave, and, in a scene that was familiar throughout the
Roman empire, Mithra slew the bull, grasping its nostrils with
one hand and plunging a dagger into its side with the other
(fig. 65). From the body of the dying animal emerged, according
to one interpretation, all of the useful plants and herbs which
cover the earth. 91 The similarity of this sequence to the murder
of the Primordial Bull has not gone unnoticed, but it has also
been observed that Mithra's deed recalls the eschatology as well
as the cosmogony of the Iranians, who believed that the virtuous
would be immortalized at the end of time through the sacrifice
of a sacred bull by a saosyant (savior). 186 In this case, as one
authority points out, "it could be said that initiation into the
Mysteries anticipated the final Renovation, in other words, the
salvation of the mystes [the participant]." 120


FOTCM Member
I'm not sure if this is going in the right direction but the sacrifice of the bull and the regeneration of the planet by it's blood/entrails, mentioned in Dawn and Twilight, reminded me of the slaying of the dragon mythology and how that too led to fertility on earth, mentioned in Wurtzel's Myth:

Dawn and Twilight

The death of the cosmic bull, then, so far from being a tragedy for
the creation of Ohrmazd, was, in the result, a blessing, for it gave rise
to all animal and vegetable life
on which the life of man depends.
Ahriman's triumph had proved illusory, and the battle, so far from
being won, had only just begun. Now the result of the slaying of the
cosmic bull by the Destructive Spirit is precisely the same as that of
the slaying of the bull by Mithras in the Roman mysteries ; it ensures
the fertility of the earth and the reproduction of animal life. So, too,
on the Mithraic monuments depicting Mithras' sacrifice of the bull,
the point of the sacrific e is made abundantly clear by the appear�
ance of ears of corn on the tip of the slaughtered animal's tail.

We may be reasonably sure that from the blood of the slaughtered
beast the vine arose
, for after Mithras has performed the life-giving
sacrifice, he is represented as feasting sacramentally with the sun 14 after
he had been translated to heaven. This feast is in all probability the
Western counterpart of the sacrament of meat and Haoma which, as
we have seen, constituted the climax of the Yasna in its original form.

myth dragon blood.jpg
§3.5.2. Th e slaying of the dragon
Even aft er the initial creation of the universe, of the earth, and of light and sun-
shine, 378 the new earth is not ready for living beings. It has to receive moisture,
whether (sweet) water or the blood of a primordial creature.
In many traditions,

it is the latt er. It is only aft er the earth has been fertilized by a giant reptile’s blood
that it can support life.

Frequently, (Father) Heaven and (Mother) Earth are the primordial gods. Th eir
children are the Greek Titans, Indian Asuras, or Japanese Kami (Mun-
dane gods). 379 Their younger, victorious cousins are the Olympian gods, the Indian
Devas, or the Japanese Kami (Heavenly gods), who depict their older
cousins as enemies or monsters who have to be slain or at least be subdued.
Most prominent among these fi ghts is the slaying of these early monsters,
including the primordial dragon by the Great Hero, a descendant of Father Heaven .
In India, it is the great Indra who kills the three-headed reptile, just like his Iranian
counterpart Θraētaona kills a three-headed dragon and as their distant match in
Japan, Wo, kills the “eight-forked” dragon ( Orochi). 380
Th e same is echoed at the other end of Eurasia. It is Beowulf in England, Sigurd
in the Icelandic Edda, and Siegfried of Wagner’s opera and of the medieval Nibe-
lungen Epic who perform the heroic feat of slaying the “worm.” 381 We may also
compare Herakles’s killing of the Hydra of Lerna. Herakles is the mortal son of
the king of the Olympian gods, Zeus. Herakles not only kills various monsters but
also fi nds the cows, or dawn—in other words, he acts just like Indra.
Closely related with the latt er topic is the Slavic myth of the hero’s fi ght with
Veles (whose name is closely connected with the Avestan Vara and Ved. Vala,
both terms for an underground fortress or cave that contains the “cows” [dawn]
and the sun and moon as well as goods desired by humans [and in Nuristani
myths, “the house near heaven”]).
Th e dichotomy is between Slav. Veles
(Lithuanian Vẽlinas, Vélnias; Latvian Véls) and Perun’ (Lith. Perk ū ́ nas, 382 still
seen in place-names, even in such relatively late Slavicized areas as Dalmatia). 383
Th e Indo-European myths have recently been studied by C. Watkins. 384
Further afi eld, in ancient Egyptian myth, the victorious Sun (Re) slays the
dragon of the deep (Apophis, “With a knife on his head”) each night when he passes
underground on a boat back toward the east so as to rise again. Even Apophis’s
bones are destroyed; there is total destruction—no shadow and so on is left . 385 In
ritual, Apophis is burned daily in effi gie at dawn and dusk, an action that reminds of
the Vedic agnihotra ritual, which also keeps the fi re and the sun alive overnight.

In Mesopotamia, Marduk’s killing of Apsu is a related theme (see below). Th e
earliest Chinese mythology has the “black dragon” killed; 386 the dragon was not
yet regarded then as a benefi cial being, as it was later on.
Th ere are even echoes
as distant as in Hawai’i (Mo’o).

To begin with Japan for a more detailed discussion: the dragon
orochi lives on the River Hi in Izumo, 387 the land of Wo, originally the
lord of the Ocean. In Nihon Shoki 1.51, “he had an eight-forked head and eight-
forked tail; his eyes were red like the winter cherry; and on his back fi rs and
cypresses were growing.” 388 As it crawled it extended over a space of “eight hills
and eight valleys.” 389 Wo gets the dragon drunk with sake and cuts off
one head aft er another, 390 and tearing him apart, he fi nds a sword ( kusa-nagi.no150

tsurugi ) in the dragon’s tail
, which is to become important later on in the Kiki.
Th e dragon’s blood makes earth fertile. It must be investigated in detail why this
myth is so close to Indo-Iranian and Indo-European traditions.
Th e case of the
creation of light (§3.5.1) points to a common, regional (western) Central Asian
391 Th is also seems to be the case with this version of the dragon motif,
which had spread to the ancestors of the continental Proto-Japanese mythology
before entering Japan. 392

In Iran and India, the dragon-slaying motif is of Indo-European origin, but it has
undergone some signifi cant local infl uence. Th e dragon is the primordial guardian
of productive forces or of riches, and the divine hero Indra (very common in the
Ṛgveda) or the Iranian hero Θraētaona or Kərəs ā spa is his slayer.
It is one of Indra’s main deeds to overcome V ṛ tra, originally “Resistance,” 394
who was imagined in Indo-Iranian tradition as a dragon or as a giant snake, lying
on the primordial mountain or in the ocean.
However, there is also archaeolog-
ical evidence from southern Central Asia, an area where the speakers of Vedic
and Avestan must have passed through.

In the representations of the dragon in the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological
Complex [BMAC], an early south Central Asian Bronze Age culture (2400–
1600 bce ), the dragon mainly appears as an ugly, scaled, human-headed, standing
man carrying a water vessel. 395 In most Indo-Iranian descriptions, however, the
dragon is seen not in human form but as a giant reptile, killed by Indra, Θraētaona,
or Kərəs ā spa, who was resting and cooking on it. However, the reptile also
appears, with local Indian and Hindu Kush adaptations, as a giant cobra
( vya ṃ sa ).

In the BMAC area, the Eurasian motifs have thus evolved into a typical, local
variety. Many of the similarities between the Indo-European and BMAC motifs,
however, are due to the general, underlying paradigms of Eurasian myth, found
from Ireland to Japan and beyond; they may diff er in details as they represent
local variations. Interaction between the BMAC and steppe peoples is now clearly
visible. By a comparison of Indo-European and BMAC mythological systems, it
appears that the old Indo-European myth of dragon slaying has been adjusted in
the Avesta under the infl uence of the BMAC or its successor cultures. Several
Avestan texts were composed precisely in the BMAC area. We fi nd not only the
killing of the dragon but also Tištriia’s fi ght with the demon of drought, Apaoša,
and the generation of clouds and rain
, refl ecting what Francfort has reconstructed,
based on archaeological evidence, for the BMAC belief system.
It appears, then, that the old Indo-European myth of slaying the dragon
refl ects the infl uence of the BMAC. Some of these infl uences, however, are still
visible in the Ṛgveda, much farther southeast, in the Panjab. Indra is not just the
dragon slayer but also closely connected with releasing the waters. Th e Ṛgvedic
giant cobra, vya ṃ sa , surrounds the (Pamir and Himalayan) waters and must be
killed—at least temporarily—to let them fl ow.
396 Th e Indo-Iranian myth, how-
ever, lacks the Old Japanese episode of freeing a young woman from the clutches

of the dragon, a motif that is found in later Iranian texts and that has spread from
there to Armenia (myth of Mher), 397 the Caucasus, and Europe, mostly as the
medieval Christian legend of St. George. 398 Th e relationships between the dragon
and the heroes are summarized for the Indo-Iranian, Germanic, and Japanese
areas in Table 3.3 .
In another part of Eurasia, in ancient Greece, the motif is fi rst found in the
“Homeric” hymn 3.179 ff ., where the sun deity, Phoibos Apollo, kills a female
snakelike dragon (Python) in a way that in many respects echoes the slaying of
the female Tiamat by Marduk and that of the male V ṛ tra by Indra (Ṛgveda
1.32): 399
Apollo . . . with his strong bow, the son of Zeus killed the bloated, great-she-
dragon, . . . cruel Typhaon, . . . a plague among men . . . until the lord Apollo, who deals
death from afar, shot a strong arrow at her. Th en she, rent with bitt er pangs, lay
drawing great gasps of breath and rolling about that place . . . and so she left her life,
breathing forth in blood. Th e Phoebus Apollo boasted over her: “Now rot here upon
the soil that feeds men!”
. . . and darkness covered her eyes. 400
In this version of the myth, however, nothing is said about fertilizing the earth or
providing water for it. We can also compare the myth of Kadmos and the
dragon. 401
Still older is the Hitt ite myth of Illuyankaš (Eel-snake), which tells of the fi ght
of the Storm God with this giant snake, who steals the god’s heart and eyes but is
fi nally killed: 402 similar to Japanese myth, Inara prepares a great festival with drinks
and lures the dragon to it. He eats and drinks until he is no longer able to descend
to his lair. Th e human hero Hupasisas binds him with a rope, and the Storm God
kills him. Th e Hitt ite myth is similar to a Hurrian one, but it is preceded in age by
the account of the Mesopotamian text Enuma Elish (tablet IV), which was recited
at New Year. Th e gods elect Marduk as their leader and tell him:
“Go, and cut of the life of Tiamat!”
He fashioned a bow, designated it as his weapon,
Feathered the arrow, set in the string.
He lift ed up a mace and carried it in his right hand,152

Slung the bow and quiver at his side. . . .
Th e lord spread his net and encircled her. . . .
He shot an arrow which pierced her belly,
split her down the middle and slit her heart,
vanquished her and extinguished her life.
He threw down the corpse and stood on top of her. . . .
Th e Lord trampled the lower part of Tiamat.
With his unsparing mace smashed her skull,
Severed the arteries of her blood,
And made the North wind carry it off as good news. 403

Th e story continues, in the fashion of the Ymir–Puru ṣ a–Pangu myth (§3.1.4), to
explain how the world was fashioned out of her bones. [similar to: "In the
Norse myth Ymir, who was also associated with a primordial bovid, is slain and the earth made from his flesh"]
In China, a dragon myth belongs to the oldest strata of local mythology, for
example, in Li-ki (Liji), chap. 9 , Li-yün, the dragon ( lung ) is one of the four fab-
ulous beings. 404 Nügua, 405 the second of the primordial “emperors,” accomplishes
the work of dragon slaying. As in the beginning, the earth was still in chaos, and
some heroes must put it in order.
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FOTCM Member
A couple ideas come to mind from the following extract:

As told in the Persian Bundahisn, Gayomart and the bull lived
in a state of divine bliss until the evil principle broke into the
world, causing the death of the pair . When the bull died, its
marrow flowed forth to create all the nourishing and healing
plants; its semen was borne to the moon for purification and
thence to the creation of all species of animals. From Gayomart' s
body came the metals ( originally perhaps the mineral kingdom
as a whole); from his own seed, purified in the sun, sprang the
ten species of men.

1) Evil "broke into the world" = STS takeover 309 KYA.

2) Semen of bull borne to the moon for purification and creation of all species of animals = use of genetic information in different combinations by 4D engineers to create different species as we have speculated in the "Darwin's Black Box" thread.

3) Semen of primal man purified in the sun used to create 10 species of men = genetic material of primate types used by 4D engineers to create different races of men as Cs said happened, more or less, i.e. that different human "types" were engineered in Orion labs.

4) The use of the Moon as the place where the "purification" takes place is reminiscent of Gurdjieff's idea of "food for the moon."

So it seems to me that these very ancient myths may preserve some ideas of what "really happened" and, of course, the death of primal man and the primal bull could represent an early cataclysm where most of life on earth was destroyed. For those who have gone through the book about Prehistoric Earth that I've mentioned elsewhere, you will notice that each "era" is more or less ended by a "Great Dying", following which all the types and species of plant and animal life is dramatically changed and expanded. So this might be the idea that is preserved in these myths: that extinction events are used by 4D engineers to "make all things new" as in a whole new experimental phase.

In short, there really could be some ancient scientific knowledge buried in there including an awareness of hyperdimensional realities, 4D engineers, genetic manipulation by same, and the resulting designing of new life forms.


FOTCM Member
From the thread Are Hindu Gods same as 4D STS Lizzies or Orions?

For example the "Last return of comet cluster - returns around 3600 yrs" (1644 BC to 1628 BC) must then be considered to have happened only 3,200 years ago. With the C's having determined the "Nordic Covenant" at 3131 BC, have they already corrected the "time"? 🕰

I wonder which timeline the comet cluster is considering actually, since it was said to be due every 3,600 years.

Maybe developments on the BBM are heating up so much that it won't be able to wait another 400 years and quite frankly neither will I. ⏳

Well, if you add 1644 BC to 2019, you get 3663.
Like, overdue?

Just a quick note on the above: I thought it was interesting that in Zoroastrianism it's said that over a period of 9,000/12,000 years - with 12,800 years being the theorized time of the Younger Dryas Impact Event - there will be cycles/periods of 3,000 years where Ahura Mazda and Ahriman (basically) battle for the planet - and the comet cluster is speculated to have cycles of around 3,600 years.

Ok, there's a big chunk of years missing there but it still caught my eye. There's also the mention of constellations, although i'm not quite sure how that relates, yet, other than to Mithraism.

Anyway, the years correlation may be a stretch but the description of this battle between good and evil, and even the initial state where 'flowers never suffered drought' (words to that effect), do sound possible when compared to our past and to our time now:

All that takes place in the
twelve thousand years which is the life-span allotted to this material
creation, is, then, controlled by the sphere, and by the twelve con
and the seven planets that inhabit it. Human destiny, then,
must be in the hands of these astral powers. This was the second

205TWI L I G H T

Zurvanite heresy-astrological fatalism-and it, too, ran directly
counter to the Prophet's clear affirmation of the absolute freedom of the
human will. Like all things, however, in this state of mixture of good and
evil, the luminaries are divided between the good god and his enemy :
the constellations or Signs of the Zodiac are on the side of Ohrmazd,
whereas the planets are literally the spawn of Satan. 39 Whatever good
Ohrmazd transmits to his creatures through the constellations risks
being intercepted by the malevolence of the planets and being re
distributed unjustly.

'The twelve Signs of the Zodiac . . . are the twelve commanders on the side
of Ohrmazd
, and the seven planets are said to be the seven commanders
on the side of Ahrirnan. And the seven planets oppress all creation and deliver
it over to death and all manner of evil : for the twelve Si gn s of the Zodiac
and the seven planets rule the fate of the world and direct it. ' 40

And Zurvan said to him :
'O false and wicked one, the kingdom shall be granted thee for nine thousand
years, but Ohrmazd have I made a king above thee, and after nine thousand
years he will reign and will do everything according to his good pleasure.'

And Ohrmazd created the heavens and the earth and all things that are
beautiful and good ; but Ahriman created the demons and all that is evil
and perverse. Ohrmazd created riches, Ahriman poverty.

What is rather strange, however, is that though we know of the
struggle waged by Karter against the Zandiks and of A.turpat's
vindication of his own orthodoxy as against the fatalists, we have no

direct reference in the Pahlavi books or elsewhere to any official
condemnation of mythological Zurvanism as such. This would lead us
to suppose that the question was never entirely resolved ; and in the
Menok i Khrat and in Zatspram we do still find references to Zurvan
which seem to presuppose at least his co-eternity with Ohrmazd and
Ahriman. Thus in the former we read that Ohrmazd fashioned his
creation from his own light 'with the blessing of the Infinite Zurvan,
for the Infinite Zurvan is unageing and deathless ; he knows neither
pain nor decay nor corruption ; he has no rival, nor can he ever be put
aside or deprived of his sovereignty in his proper sphere'. 46 And again
it is by the agency of Infinite Time that Ohrmazd and Ahriman enter
into a solemn pact by which they limit the time in which they will do
battle together for nine thousand years, 47 this nine thousand years of
warfare corresponding to the nine thousand years of earthly
sovereignty allotted to Ahriman
by Zurvan in the fully Zurvanite
version of the myth.

l he had learnt from the disciples of Ahriman.' 11
In asserting that the twin Spirits were good and evil by choice the
Zurvanites were nearer Zoroaster's own views than were the latter-day
orthodox, but in attributing less than omnipotence and omniscience
to Ohrmazd they stray very far indeed from the path that he had
traced. Moreover, in the Zurvanite mythology Ahriman is granted far
more power to do harm in this world than the orthodox would concede.
Zurvan had promised to make the first of the twins which came before
him king, and, because his essential nature is rectitude, 1 2 he cannot
go back on his word. Ahriman, then, becomes Prince of this World
for nine thousand years, whereas Ohrmazd reigns only in heaven above
him. The orthodox are more optimistic, for during the nine thousand
years in which good and evil are mingled together and strive with each
other in this world 'three thousand years will pass entirely according
to the will of Ohrmazd, three thousand years in mixture will pass
according to the will of both Ohrmazd and Ahriman, and in the last
battle the Destructive Spirit will be made powerless and [Ohrmazd]
himself will save creation from aggression.
' 1 3

. Finite time i s destined to last twelve thousand years, at the
end of which it merges again into its source which is the Infinite
, and
action merges into rest from which it sprang. But the universe created
by Ohrmazd in all its infinite variety does not revert to its own source
which is the undifferentiated One or primal matter. All creation is
dependent on Infinite Time, and as such it must partake of eternity.
So it can be confidently stated that 'those things which Ohrmazd
created at the original creation do not change'. 4 2 For Ohrmazd, in
creating finite beings to do battle with Ahriman, who can only exist
and operate on the finite level, gives them an infinite dimension ; and
just as Time, Space, Wisdom, and Ohrmazd himself are eternal and
immutable, so is all that he creates out of them. All the good creation,
then, has an eternal substrate which will be realized at the end of time
as eternal well-being and bliss. 4 3 This constitutes the 'Final Body'
the body of a universe renewed and perfected because finally purged
of the malice and corruption of the Aggressor. This 'body' continues
to exist in all its variety, and within it exist in harmony
the resurrected
bodies, now once again united to their souls, of all men reconstituted
and transfigured. It is true that every material thing was elicited from
the potentiality of matter and every spiritual thing from the potentiality
of spirit, but in the end 'possessed of image and body ( adhvenakomand
ut karpomand) they will be reunited to their souls, all undefiled, and
together with their souls they will be made immortal, reconstituted as
eternal beings in perfect bliss'. 44 The end of the cosmic drama, then,
is not just a return to the status quo ante, a reversion to a state of pure
undifferentiated being, it means rather that every separate creature has
grown and developed to its highest capacity, it has become its final
cause, the sum-total of all its good thoughts, words, and deeds, what the
Iranians call its khwarenah, or khwarr as it is now called in Pahlavi.
glorious state it achieves on its own account certainly, but also in full
union and harmony with the whole human race which itself is trans
figured in the beatific vision of God. Life in Infinite Time is thus a life
of union and communion both with God and with the whole of his
creation now finally released from all the torments inflicted on it by
the Fiend. He and his entire creation will be utterly destroyed. This
constitutes the purpose of life for the Zoroastrian, whether he be, in
his mythology and philosophy, an orthodox dualist or a Zurvanite.
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The Living Force
FOTCM Member
2) Semen of bull borne to the moon for purification and creation of all species of animals = use of genetic information in different combinations by 4D engineers to create different species as we have speculated in the "Darwin's Black Box" thread.

This might be just BS but I have always wondered about the "Papal bull". According to Wikipedia (not the best source I'm sure) the "bull" is a lead seal attached to decrees (to give weight?) .

Papal bull
Papal bulls have been in use at least since the 6th century, but the phrase was not used until around the end of the 13th century, and then only internally for unofficial administrative purposes. However, it had become official by the 15th century, when one of the offices of the Apostolic Chancery was named the "register of bulls" ("registrum bullarum").[1]

By the accession of Pope Leo IX in 1048, a clear distinction developed between two classes of bulls of greater and less solemnity. The majority of the "great bulls" now in existence are in the nature of confirmations of property or charters of protection accorded to monasteries and religious institutions. In an epoch when there was much fabrication of such documents, those who procured bulls from Rome wished to ensure that the authenticity of their bull was above suspicion. A papal confirmation, under certain conditions, could be pleaded as itself constituting sufficient evidence of title in cases where the original deed had been lost or destroyed.[1]

Since the 12th century, papal bulls have carried a leaden seal with the heads of the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul on one side and the pope’s name on the other. Papal bulls were originally issued by the pope for many kinds of communication of a public nature, but by the 13th century, papal bulls were only used for the most formal or solemn of occasions.[2] Papyrus seems to have been used almost uniformly as the material for these documents until the early years of the eleventh century, after which it was rapidly superseded by a rough kind of parchment.[1]

Modern scholars have retroactively used the word "bull" to describe any elaborate papal document issued in the form of a decree or privilege, solemn or simple, and to some less elaborate ones issued in the form of a letter. Popularly, the name is used for any papal document that contains a metal seal.

Today, the bull is the only written communication in which the pope will refer to himself as "Episcopus Servus Servorum Dei" ("Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God").[3] For example, when Pope Benedict XVI issued a decree in bull form, he began the document with "Benedictus, Episcopus, Servus Servorum Dei".

While papal bulls always used to bear a metal seal, they now do so only on the most solemn occasions. A papal bull is today the most formal type of public decree or letters patent issued by the VaticanChancery in the name of the pope.

Just makes me wonder if there was a Mithraic connection somewhere. :huh:


FOTCM Member
This might be just BS but I have always wondered about the "Papal bull". According to Wikipedia (not the best source I'm sure) the "bull" is a lead seal attached to decrees (to give weight?) .

Papal bull

Just makes me wonder if there was a Mithraic connection somewhere. :huh:

Comes from the Latin "Bulla". Latin: bubble, also stud, boss, knob (whence Medieval Latin bulla official seal)

For all we know it may have signified testicles. But it came to just mean a certain shape, so Papal Bulls are not secret messages.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
A couple ideas come to mind from the following extract:

1) Evil "broke into the world" = STS takeover 309 KYA.

2) Semen of bull borne to the moon for purification and creation of all species of animals = use of genetic information in different combinations by 4D engineers to create different species as we have speculated in the "Darwin's Black Box" thread.

3) Semen of primal man purified in the sun used to create 10 species of men = genetic material of primate types used by 4D engineers to create different races of men as Cs said happened, more or less, i.e. that different human "types" were engineered in Orion labs.

4) The use of the Moon as the place where the "purification" takes place is reminiscent of Gurdjieff's idea of "food for the moon."

So it seems to me that these very ancient myths may preserve some ideas of what "really happened" and, of course, the death of primal man and the primal bull could represent an early cataclysm where most of life on earth was destroyed. For those who have gone through the book about Prehistoric Earth that I've mentioned elsewhere, you will notice that each "era" is more or less ended by a "Great Dying", following which all the types and species of plant and animal life is dramatically changed and expanded. So this might be the idea that is preserved in these myths: that extinction events are used by 4D engineers to "make all things new" as in a whole new experimental phase.

In short, there really could be some ancient scientific knowledge buried in there including an awareness of hyperdimensional realities, 4D engineers, genetic manipulation by same, and the resulting designing of new life forms.
I've also wandered if this may apply to the more recent 'intervention' of 27K years ago.

I recall watching a documentary where magnetic resonance found a bull shaped buried artefact in the Nabta Playa which is said to date back about that far.

Nabta Playa was once a large internally drained basin in the Nubian Desert, located approximately 800 kilometers south of modern-day Cairo or about 100 kilometers west of Abu Simbel in southern Egypt, 22.51° north, 30.73° east. Today the region is characterized by numerous archaeological sites.

It, along with the 'Discourses of an Alien Sky' film from Thunderbolts Project, lead me to think a dramatic change occurred in our solar system and gave ancient man a different perspective of the constellations where some were even no longer visible or others entered into the scene. Just a thought.

Tuatha de Danaan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Since reading PLATO THE PREHISTORIAN and WHEN ZARATHUSTRA SPOKE. I've become somewhat obsessed with Mitras, and where he may have evolved.
Reading some old books I've sort of formulated the hypotheses of the initial Creator God.

Creator, Preserver, destroyer
Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva.
Oramadas, Mithra, Arhimanus.

Would this constitute the Three in one, and would these aspects be both male and female. As with all religions
which degenerate with time, through trauma, priests or kings, all these aspects could have been divided up and given the hundreds of names we now know as the Gods and Goddesses. This split the divine aspect of the one into many.

I'm thinking that the original idea of God, forgotten very quickly ,to be replaced by the most important presence in the sky .i.e. The Sun. The Sun in Taurus, for example, leading to worship of the Bull and all it's connected temples with horns etc, and cattle raids, and if I'm not mistaken, to our May-pole celebrations today and the creation of Mitras. This is just one example.

A prophet appearing, e.g Zarathusta, to try to bring back the original idea, Paul would be another. Their knowledge, unlike that of the riff-raff, would have been preserved through the ages to redirect man from base idolatry to knowledge of a greater hope for man.

Hope this is not noise but I do have a bee in my bonnet on this one.
Also the fact of the obsession with sky watching. Was there a knowledge when certain stars or planets were in a certain place in the sky, humanity was in for a bumpy ride.?

Tuatha de Danaan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Reading the below made me think of the 12,000 years since the last destruction ,and how we are nearing the end again. The author is speaking of the Genesis of the Persians (Iranians) but also the Tuscans. Where do the Tuscans come in.? Don't know yet if he is referring to the Tuscany we know or somewhere else.

I've just started reading but the two lots of six thousand years caught my attention as I've not seen that mentioned before with the beliefs within Mithraism.

I found this in Origin, Object and Organisation of The Christian Religion. Translated from the French
Francois Dupuis

According to the principles of the cosmogony or Genesis

of the Magi (with which that of the Jews has most afiinity,

since both placed man in a garden of delights, where a

serpent introduces evil), from time without bounds was

born a limited period, divided into twelve parts, six of

which belonged to light, six to darkness, six to the creative

and six to the destructive action, six to the good, and six

to the evil of Nature. That period includes the annual

revolution of the sky or of the world, which the Magi

represented by their mystic egg^ divided into twelve parts,

six of which belonged to the chief of good and of light,

and six to the chief of evil and of darkness. This idea is

figuratively expressed by a tree bearing twelve fruits which

give the knowledge of good and evil, for thus it is painted

in the gospel of Eve ; also by the phrase twelve thousand

years, six of which are called thousands of God, and six

thousands of the Devil. These expressions are emblematic

of the year, during which man passes successively

under the conflicting empires of light and darkness,
In the past few weeks, I've read three books that are amazing supports for the C's worldview/cosmology and stand alongside our reading in Intelligent Design as another major thread of the mysteries of life, existence, etc. Interestingly, they could be read in a certain order as the "New History of Mankind" with strong hints about cosmological mysteries. The three books are:

The Origins of the Worlds Myths by Witzel
Plato, Prehistorian by Mary Settegast
From Yahweh to Zion by Laurent Guyenot

The first two books were mentioned by Sweatman in his book "Prehistory Decoded" which is another good one and should be on the list of books about cataclysms, etc.

Now, keep in mind that the above three books do not engage with the topic of Earth Changes in any significant way, but they all three provide enormous collections of research/researched materials that are otherwise very difficult to access and pull together. There's a lot of archaeology, paleontology, sociology, religious studies, and so forth combined in them. There are also some things that have to be set aside as you read, such as Witzel's efforts to appease the Darwinists when the truth is right in front of his eyes. Sweatman does this to a certain extent also. And certainly, without the explanatory power of cosmic cataclysm and 4 D realities, the authors are handicapped a bit, but overall, they give us a great gift in these books because they have done their homework and we can do ours by reading and weeding!

One of the best parts of "Plato, Prehistorian", is the fact that Settegast gives us many dates that can be used to construct a timeline. Witzel is good about giving dates, too, but he gets a little tangled with his trying to fit everything to "Out of Africa".

"Plato, Prehistorian" pretty much picks up where Witzel leaves off and Guyenot picks up where Settegast leaves off and brings things down to our modern day.

Of course, every single thing is not covered, but as a framework for understanding who we are, what we are, and how we got here, by our own addition of certain details that we have been studying for years now, I think these three books will do the job!

I think we are clones of some other beings ...Wich they call elhoims..
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