THE WEIGHT OF CHAINS

A

andi

Guest
#1
The Centre for Research on Globalization

presents

the MONTREAL PREMIERE of

THE WEIGHT OF CHAINS

The true story behind NATO intervention in the Balkans


FRIDAY, APRIL 1
- 6 pm -

Cinema du Parc
3575 Avenue du Parc
(Metro Place-des-Arts)
Montreal, QC


About the Film

The Weight of Chains is a Canadian documentary film that takes a critical look at the role that the US, NATO and the EU played in the tragic breakup of a once peaceful and prosperous European state - Yugoslavia.

The film is a poignant first-hand look at why the West intervened in the Yugoslav conflict, with an impressive roster of interviews with academics, diplomats, media personalities and ordinary citizens of the former Yugoslav republics, including Professor of Economics Michel Chossudovsky, author and political scientist Michael Parenti, renowned writer Srdja Trifkovic, Former Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, and many others!

Malagurski offers a unique look into the current state in which the new Balkan countries are - powerless to choose their own government or write their own laws.

Find out more about the film: _http://www.weightofchains.com



This looks very interesting.
trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi50Mun4RA&feature=player_embedded
 

dannybananny

Jedi Council Member
#3
Watched only half of the documentary because it's long but can tell from seen that it's pretty objective by my standards if it means something, in the beginning when mentioning 1st world war and first Yugoslavia it was a bit subjective not mentioning Serbian dictatorship in 1st Yugoslavia and blaming Germany and Austro-Hungaria for 1st world war, but in fact French and British masons were in contact with Serbian organization that assassinated Franz Ferdinand and that escalated in war, and Serbian monarchs were also masons and in contact with them. But the main part about break up of 2nd Yugoslavia was objective and opens eyes, it was very touching to see that thee were people on Croat and Serbian side who divided people not by their nationality but by being good or bad, and tried to help other nationality but were in the end killed by their "own" because of that. It shows really good how in those specific situations of crisis pathological people and certain emerge and benefit, sad, sad story indeed.

Online movie can be found here:

http://coolmoviezone.com/the-weight-of-chains-2010/
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
#4
Today stumbled upon this documentary. Looks very interesting and relevant to current situation in Ukraine. Here it is on YT.


https://youtu.be/waEYQ46gH08
Boris Malagurski's award-winning Canadian film "The Weight of Chains", dealing with the breakup of Yugoslavia from a different angle - finally, exclusively, on YouTube!

Watch the film that has stirred controversy around the world, screened at cinemas across Australia, Canada and the US, as well as at film festivals in London (Raindance), Belgrade (Beldocs), Havana, Ann Arbor, Toronto, and many others.

If you thought you knew why Yugoslavia broke up, get ready for 2 hours of shocking facts that will shed a different light on Western intervention in the Balkans. Nicknamed the "Serbian Michael Moore" by the oldest daily newspaper in the Balkans, Malagurski will expose the root causes of the Yugoslav wars and explain that the goal was for the West to create economic and geopolitical colonies in that part of the world.

Who's in the film? Everyone from former "Economic Hitman" John Perkins, Retired Major General of the UN Army Lewis Mackenzie, Canadian economist Michel Chossudovsky, Canadian journalist Scott Taylor, former Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia James Bissett, humanitarian Vlade Divac and the list goes on!
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
#5
Keit said:
Today stumbled upon this documentary. Looks very interesting and relevant to current situation in Ukraine. Here it is on YT.
This one is a must watch! I saw it last year and it helped me understand why the whole mess to begin with. The historical part was fascinating, makes you feel in mourning for what could have been.
 

itellsya

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
#6
I wanted to get up to speed on the Serbia/Bosni 'war' and this documentary was recommended by my friends who grew up during that time. They advised it to be the best and most objective.

To say those who experienced the NATO terror bombing suffered trauma is an understatement. I know they still suffer in their relationships today; night terrors, inability to get close to loved ones. Myself, i got the feeling growing up that Serbia was closer to the middle east than to Europe, as is propaganda, and therefore 'just another middle east war' My father was in the army so... (though he didn't serve there)

I visited Serbia a few times, last in 2007, it was still struggling economically, the people in their 20's felt there wasn't much opportunity there and careers were difficult to come by. Clothes cost almost as much they did in the UK and their salaries were much low. In areas, the bombed buildings in Belgrade were left as they were.

Even after a few documentaries and consideration, it will take a few more to neutralise all the false information i've consumed. Listening to the documentary as i write this, i realise how little i know.



Russia Today released a documentary in the last 6 months - presumably in response to the US/EU plans for same in Ukraine - 'revisiting' those who experienced the bombing campaign. I think it compliments the doc posted, and may be posed elsewhere on the forum. I think, as the title suggests, the 'surprise' and lack of any natural 'build up' or historical influence (hence: 'Why?') made the 'shock' even more irrational and therefore unbearable.

ЗАШТО? WHY? Stories of bombed Yugoslavia


https://youtu.be/HxDcvhH2Ypc Fifteen years after NATO's 78-day bombardment of Yugoslavia, memories of the bombing still haunt present-day Serbia. NATO killed over 2,000 people, hundreds were civilians, 88 were children. Serbs ask 'why?' above all. Why did NATO smash their cities, kill their children, bomb hospitals and schools?

When the NATO bomb campaign began (on March 24th 1999) Jelena Milincic was a student at the University of Belgrade, and just 18 years old.

When the first bombs shook Belgrade she cowered under a table with her mother, sister, and best friend. Remembering this 15 years later, they laugh nervously.

Jelena takes Anissa Naouai on a road trip, to remember the victims, and hear the survivors of NATO's strike terror.

RT presents 'Zashto?' (Why?) on the trauma of terror in Serbia.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
#7
itellsya said:
Russia Today released a documentary in the last 6 months - presumably in response to the US/EU plans for same in Ukraine - 'revisiting' those who experienced the bombing campaign. I think it compliments the doc posted, and may be posed elsewhere on the forum. I think, as the title suggests, the 'surprise' and lack of any natural 'build up' or historical influence (hence: 'Why?') made the 'shock' even more irrational and therefore unbearable.

ЗАШТО? WHY? Stories of bombed Yugoslavia
RT presents 'Zashto?' (Why?) on the trauma of terror in Serbia.
So that one too, and even though I might sound like a broken record... that one is a must watch too. The testimonials are priceless and the approach of the documentary is also very insightful. It is also available in the various languages RT offers, at least the subtitles.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
#8
I agree - as someone who grew up in that region I can say this documentary is pretty good in describing the complex issues at play there. My only objection was that author was slightly biased when talking about WWII atrocities and downplayed the role of Serbian side - i.e Četnik's. The rest is pretty good.

Also for those who wish to understand what is going on in Kosovo region here is another "must watch":

https://youtu.be/9nHWsWOgtiw

there is The Weight of Chains 2 but I am not sure if it is finished yet, the trailer is certainly interesting

https://youtu.be/62FwBdNJOW8
 

msasa

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
#9
The documentary is very, very good in depicting how the break-up of ex-Yugoslavia was an "outsider" job, i.e. "economical" colonisation of ex-Yu republics. It's a pity though that history facts aren't really "important" for the author or, maybe, he has some agenda with distorting them.

Apart from what dannybananny and Z wrote, there is also the premise that ex-Yugoslavia was basically paradise regarding the normal people's life in it and implicit suggestion that only in some future form of it Southern Slavs can obtain real independence which is very far away from the truth.

Yugoslavia and Yugoslav nation as such never really existed, it was an artificial creation with "two" distinct groups, confederalists (grouped around Croats) on one side and centralists (grouped around Serbs) on the other side. Behind that was Serbian wish for territorial expansion to West and Croatian & co. wish for independent states.

History, in short.
The Yugoslav idea came to be in it's real form during WWI when Croats (who had some kind of statehood under Hungarian sphere of influence) and co. in A-H realised they could be "divided" among other "bigger" countries after the war (in fact Antanta pact promised all South Slav territory to Italy in exchange for switching sides) and in fear of losing the statehood turned to idea of unification with kingdoms of Serbia and Monte Negro on basis of equality.
After the WWI, first short-lived State of Slovens, Croats and Serbs was created, and then unification happened though not on the basis of equality but under Serbian crown, and Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens was created. The Montenegrin were also tricked by Serbs (lost their kingdom), and they rose to arms, unsuccessfully, but continued to fight (only organised arms rising against great-Serbian oppression in those times) until most popular Croat representative in parliament was shot at, including two more wounded and two killed, by a Serbian MP.
That was used by Serbian king to impose dictatorship in 1929, and change the state name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia (first official appearance of Yugoslavia name) implementing the motto "One people, one king, one state".

Fast forward to Yugoslavia 2.
Great burden in socialist Yugoslavia which made reconciliation for all things that happened in the past difficult were crimes committed that were taboo to speak about (for example, apart from what Z mentioned, there were also partisans' crimes of so called Bleiburg Way of the Cross and ethnic cleansing of Italian and German communities after WWII) and imposing collective guilt on Croats and co. for being part of NDH nazi puppet state, which could have been washed away only by joining the communist party (even that was questionable in some cases).
In addition, there was also so called "verbal delict" meaning that if anything anti-Party (and/or anti-Tito) was reported to authorities the accountable persons were "sanctioned".
For me, it is a clear sign of totalitarian state, i.e. the freedom of speech (questioning of authority, real true history research) was basically non-existent.
Plus, there was a huge discrimination in favour of Party members and in favour of Serbs, especially against Christians of Western denominations (mostly Catholics because of alleged relation of Catholic Church to NDH).

In that atmosphere, first the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts (SANU) published a Memorandum in 1986 (Tito died in 1980) in which it stated that Serbs are "not very content" with actual Yu constitution from 1974 allowing possibility for self-determination (to potential succession) of particular Yu republic, and promoted the notion that "all Serbs must live in one state". At the same time Milošević became the president of Communist party of Serbia and year later, due to conflict created around his speech about Kosovo and igniting Serbian nationalism, he overthrown his mentor and took the presidency of Serbia for himself. During 1988 and 1989, using "people risings" he took down the "unreliable" leaderships of Monte Negro and Vojvodina & Kosovo, and changing Serbian constitution abolished autonomy of later two. His pressure to change the Yu constitution (and growing Serbian nationalism) led to break-up of Communist party of Yugoslavia in January 1990 and consequently elections (first multi-party in Yu) in all six republics.

There are some other inconsistent and deviated claims in the documentary, but won't go nitpicking there. :)
All in all, a distorted view on Yugoslavias and reality behind Yugoslav idea was presented, IMO.
No past and/or future one can bring real independence for South Slav peoples except knowledge about ponerology and psychopathy of society and authorities that lead us, no matter who they are.
 

Avala

Dagobah Resident
#10
Saša said:
The documentary is very, very good in depicting how the break-up of ex-Yugoslavia was an "outsider" job, i.e. "economical" colonisation of ex-Yu republics. It's a pity though that history facts aren't really "important" for the author or, maybe, he has some agenda with distorting them.

Apart from what dannybananny and Z wrote, there is also the premise that ex-Yugoslavia was basically paradise regarding the normal people's life in it and implicit suggestion that only in some future form of it Southern Slavs can obtain real independence which is very far away from the truth.

Yugoslavia and Yugoslav nation as such never really existed, it was an artificial creation with "two" distinct groups, confederalists (grouped around Croats) on one side and centralists (grouped around Serbs) on the other side. Behind that was Serbian wish for territorial expansion to West and Croatian & co. wish for independent states.

History, in short.
The Yugoslav idea came to be in it's real form during WWI when Croats (who had some kind of statehood under Hungarian sphere of influence) and co. in A-H realised they could be "divided" among other "bigger" countries after the war (in fact Antanta pact promised all South Slav territory to Italy in exchange for switching sides) and in fear of losing the statehood turned to idea of unification with kingdoms of Serbia and Monte Negro on basis of equality.
After the WWI, first short-lived State of Slovens, Croats and Serbs was created, and then unification happened though not on the basis of equality but under Serbian crown, and Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens was created. The Montenegrin were also tricked by Serbs (lost their kingdom), and they rose to arms, unsuccessfully, but continued to fight (only organised arms rising against great-Serbian oppression in those times) until most popular Croat representative in parliament was shot at, including two more wounded and two killed, by a Serbian MP.
That was used by Serbian king to impose dictatorship in 1929, and change the state name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia (first official appearance of Yugoslavia name) implementing the motto "One people, one king, one state".

Fast forward to Yugoslavia 2.
Great burden in socialist Yugoslavia which made reconciliation for all things that happened in the past difficult were crimes committed that were taboo to speak about (for example, apart from what Z mentioned, there were also partisans' crimes of so called Bleiburg Way of the Cross and ethnic cleansing of Italian and German communities after WWII) and imposing collective guilt on Croats and co. for being part of NDH nazi puppet state, which could have been washed away only by joining the communist party (even that was questionable in some cases).
In addition, there was also so called "verbal delict" meaning that if anything anti-Party (and/or anti-Tito) was reported to authorities the accountable persons were "sanctioned".
For me, it is a clear sign of totalitarian state, i.e. the freedom of speech (questioning of authority, real true history research) was basically non-existent.
Plus, there was a huge discrimination in favour of Party members and in favour of Serbs, especially against Christians of Western denominations (mostly Catholics because of alleged relation of Catholic Church to NDH).

In that atmosphere, first the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts (SANU) published a Memorandum in 1986 (Tito died in 1980) in which it stated that Serbs are "not very content" with actual Yu constitution from 1974 allowing possibility for self-determination (to potential succession) of particular Yu republic, and promoted the notion that "all Serbs must live in one state". At the same time Milošević became the president of Communist party of Serbia and year later, due to conflict created around his speech about Kosovo and igniting Serbian nationalism, he overthrown his mentor and took the presidency of Serbia for himself. During 1988 and 1989, using "people risings" he took down the "unreliable" leaderships of Monte Negro and Vojvodina & Kosovo, and changing Serbian constitution abolished autonomy of later two. His pressure to change the Yu constitution (and growing Serbian nationalism) led to break-up of Communist party of Yugoslavia in January 1990 and consequently elections (first multi-party in Yu) in all six republics.

There are some other inconsistent and deviated claims in the documentary, but won't go nitpicking there. :)
All in all, a distorted view on Yugoslavias and reality behind Yugoslav idea was presented, IMO.
No past and/or future one can bring real independence for South Slav peoples except knowledge about ponerology and psychopathy of society and authorities that lead us, no matter who they are.


Those horrible Serbs! I’ve always wondered why they killed JFK! I mean its obvious why they wasted Dr Martin Luther King, Chang Kai Check and Gandhi. Cause they’re racists! (those bloody inbreeders, pig farmers, alcoholics, five days unshaved beards southerners . . . ) ;)


:cool2:
 

msasa

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
#11
Avala said:
Those horrible Serbs! I’ve always wondered why they killed JFK! I mean its obvious why they wasted Dr Martin Luther King, Chang Kai Check and Gandhi. Cause they’re racists! (those bloody inbreeders, pig farmers, alcoholics, five days unshaved beards southerners . . . ) ;)

:cool2:
I don't see anybody said that any nation is racist as such, it goes along the same path like claiming that Croats, who were not partisans, are nazis. Nobody benefits from claims/statements like that, except psychos at power who are intra-national and trans-national, and present themselves to the masses as their national "saviours" and protectors.

At the end of the documentary (around 1:56:00), this guy Bosnitch said very nice that we need to defend our history. I would say to reclaim it and find out what really happened, not just now 20 years ago, but 100 years ago also, since our nations have been lead to wars against each other not only once, and we need to "see" how we have been primed to accepting it and even "happily" joining that madness.

For example, for illustration purposes, according to some sources (Croatian politics in XX century - in Croatian) at the end of WWII the Croatian partisan army and NDH army were equal in size suggesting that so called "Bleiburg" and other after WWII crimes were not done by Serbs only to "poor" Croats or whoever, but also Croats themselves.

Why I don't just accept the now popular notion "they/we are all guilty, it was a bloodbath, lets just carry on" or similarly "it was a pure outside job, we are all innocent, lets blame it all on some external enemy and just carry on"? Because, IMO, if we finally don't learn something, if we don't see the pattern (if there is one) how we fall under this "pure evil spell", we are doomed to repeat the whole mess again and again and again (almost like we did in last 100 years).

The thing is that, to me, it looks like things are again repeating themselves right now.
Letting economy aside, which of course is a huge force behind the curtain, lets just look at the "propaganda" patterns here.

In 2011, allegedly, SANU created Memorandum II. Allegedly, because, unlike Memorandum I which was published in most renowned papers Večernje novosti, I couldn't find either one Serbian link to this information, but just Croatian and Bosnian. Here's the video (in Bosnian):


https://youtu.be/eDTxY8FuLyE

Croatian general Gotovina (kind of national symbol/hero) was first found guilty by ICJ, in April 2011, and sentenced to 24 years. Later after the appeal, he was released as not guilty in November 2012. All this again ignited strongly the fires of nationalism where Gotovina's statement "The war is part of the past, lets turn to the future" came as a huge surprise for some circles in Croatia.

In January 2012, referendum for joining EU was held in Croatia and pro-EU side won with 66% out of 1.96 mil people that cast their ballots. The overall number of voters on the list was 4.5 mil, meaning that only cca 44% of them turned out to vote. The list this year, for presidential elections, comprised cca 3.83 mil people (the malversation with the number of people on the list is an issue for some time in Croatia) suggesting that cca 50% of people turned out in 2012, leading to conclusion that only cca 30% of election body decided that Croatia should join the EU. Problem was/is that people are lethargic thinking that they can't change anything.

At the same time Serbian radicals won the presidential and parliament elections in Serbia in 2012 and found the coalition for government. In 2014, radical became the Prime-minister also. Now, both, the actual president and prime-minister were close allies of extreme ultra-radical Šešelj from whom they parted in 2008.

In September 2013 "troubles" with bilingual panels in Vukovar started (keep in mind that this geographic part was peacefully reintegrated into Croatia 3 years after the war ended, in 1998). Apparently, Croats there couldn't stand that panels with cyrillic letters would be hanging on authority buildings so they broke them, several times after being replaced, even when police was trying to guard them. This play, of breaking the panels and placing new ones, continues all the way till today.

In November 2014, Šešelj was released from Hague due to his medical condition, less than a week prior to anniversary of Vukovar tragedy and 1.5 months prior to first round of Croatian presidential elections. He started giving his usual speeches and rallying people with nationalist sentiments, and politics & media, at least in Croatia, were in that time preoccupied with him. What particularly caught my attention was how in one clip of Šešelj's rally, shown in primetime news Dnevnik on Croatian national TV, the camera "stood a bit longer" on a poster showing Putin with chetnik features. So, not only the priming against Serbs (helped with Šešelj) was being done, but at the same time against Putin also, by shaping public mind by association.

The presidential elections showed deep split among people in Croatia. What's troubling is that similar rhetoric was repeated, dividing people into commies and yugo-nostalgic (which are basically represented by liberal capitalist Social-Democratic Party - what an irony) against patriots (represented by Croatian Democratic Community with hidden and not-so-hidden neonazi sentiments), like in 1990s. Even more worrisome is that new president plays very similar music like Tudjman did about national unity, prosperity and "beautiful" Croatian future. And just "incidentally" she slipped in the line "All Croatians citizens are Croats", almost exact quote from Tudjman, who she considers as her mentor (political father; in similar fashion like he is "The Father of Homeland/Croatia").

So, what we have now is very, very similar to early 1990s (or late 1910s, or early 1940s, just pick your choice) considering this part of Balkans (and larger). In addition, in the documentary, there was not even one mention about London's and Paris' role in all this mess, the focus on external enemy was almost exclusively put on Germany and USA (London and Paris are traditionally considered as close allies of Belgrade).
And we know that where USA goes its London bobby follows. Interestingly, he just arrived to advice Serbian prime-minister:
http://www.sott.net/article/292875-Despite-having-led-NATO-bombing-of-Serbia-Tony-Blair-will-advise-its-prime-minister-paid-for-by-United-Arab-Emirates
 

Yozilla

The Living Force
#12
I would like to make a distinction btw people and Serbian elite - so it is not about all Serbs... First casualty in war 91' to 95' was a Serb on Croatian side and since it was not politically convenient - this fact was suppressed. Also there are some information that first unit to try to calm rebellion in Krajina was composed from volunteers of Serbian nationality who were serving as police officers (former "Milicija") and this was also suppressed. Also someone here noticed that basically those "200 000 Serbs from Krajina that left Croatia during operation "Oluja" (Storm) are strangers to Serbia - it boils down to that they are basically Dalmatians of Orthodox orientation. Some clues about that i found on another forum where one member with origins from Kraina said that his grandpa has told him that local population there were not Christians at all, until Austrians baptized them (Austro-Hungarian monarchy). Although catholic this royal house baptized locals according to orthodox rite - "divide at impera" at its best. That's why people in Dalmatia recall Habsburg Empire as the -jezebel- of Austria...

Speaking of monarchies maybe it is interesting to note that former Serbian Royal line of Karađorđevići is in family ties with Windsors of Great Britain - so there is some possibilities of manipulations and intrigues

Also there is a case of Serbian "Goebbels" Dobriša Ćosić former president of Serbia and presidennt of SANU (Serbian Academy of Arts and Science) who supposedly (according to poster Knee in this article http://www.sott.net/article/292941-Truth-and-lies-about-the-break-up-of-Yugoslavia-Forget-Milosevic-this-was-a-US-operation-from-start-to-finish) said once:[

And here's what he says Serbian academician, writer, former president of Serbia, the so-called father of the nation Dobrica Cosic: "We lie to we deceived ourselves, to console others; lie out of compassion, we lie out of shame, to encourage, to hide our misery, we lie for their integrity. We lie because of freedom. A lie is a kind of Serbian patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, inventively. " "In this country, every lie eventually becomes the truth."
Obviously this, not so long gone, crackpot wasn't doing any good to ordinary Serbian people at all, and probably just projecting the state of mind of "elite" in Serbia (military, scientific, political) from that period. It is mind blowing how many psychos like Dobriša suddenly emerged in this space/time: Slobodan Milošević - president of serbia, Franjo Tuđman of Croatia and maybe the most salient example of psychopathy in this area: Ivo Sanader imprisoned former Croatian Prime Minister...
 

Avala

Dagobah Resident
#13
Guys, I see that is it hard for you to let it go. Why?

No one will attack you. I live in Serbia and I guarantee you, no one gives much thought on Croatia.


Sasa,

For example that 'memorandum' from 2011. Is totally unknown in Serbia. On that link you provide is Sonja Biserko, form NGO paid by National Endowment for Democracy. Comments under the link is given by the people with the names "Ustasha captain" and alike. It really is not serious link.



Yozila,

In that quote (actually just excerpt) from Dobrica Cosic (not 'Dobrisa') you should try to find the whole text, where in the first couple of sentences you will read "We are liars, WE ARE LYING TO OURSELVES". Which gives some other light to the whole context. (BTW that crippled quote IS very much used in anti Serbian propaganda during the 1990s)

Also, you possibly didn’t see it in your post, but only good Serb for you is the one who works for Croatia. :)

Karadjordjevici have family lines with the British royal house, but also for example with Russia’s Romanoff house, every royal house in Europe have those ties, but that doesn’t mean that all of them are Illuminati and free masons and similar David Icke’s nut job ideas.

I thought that Sanader is just a thief and "businessman", not some nationalist. But on the other hand he’s not so known in Serbia, it is internal matters of Croatia . . . .


As I said in my previous post (and yes, I am joking ;) ), I’m sure that if you dig deep enough and "objective" enough you would find some Serb connection in killing of JFK and Gandhi. ;D
Just as any other connection which the person who digs WANTS to find.


BTW Weight of chains 2 is finished. Had premiere in November last year, but is is mostly about neoliberal economical concept and how it is done on the Balkans. As far as I understand it. No free links to it yet.
 

msasa

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
#14
I agree, thanks you Yozilla for pointing that out clearly.

About people of Orthodox Christian confession in Croatia, or mainly Serbs now, there are many sources of how they "came about" in those geographic parts. Most prominent one is that they came in front of Turkish expansion mostly as Vlahs (but not dominantly), and settled in parts of Military Border (Militärgrenze) starting from XVI cent.

Regarding the "alleged" SANU Memorandum II, I said that I couldn't find the Serbian link, so I posted a Bosnian video. It would be really useless, IMO, to post many Croatian and Bosnian links here. Here's just two:

_http://www.dnevno.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/97470-admiral-davor-domazet-loso-u-srpskom-memorandumu-2-je-apostrofiran-vukovar.html
_http://www.hrvatski-fokus.hr/index.php/hrvatska/4672-drugi-memorandum-sanu-a-ili-kako-se-u-miru-dobivaju-izgubljeni-ratovi

And it's quite possible that it's all just pure propaganda, that's why I wrote that the "list" contains things that look like "propaganda" patterns.

As to question why I don't want to let it go, because I want to know the truth, however painful that might be for my potential sacred cows, so not to repeat the same mistakes again.
I really think that "nobody" gave much thoughts about attacking anybody prior to war, concerning humans, don't you think? And the war happened, after all. So, I want to learn my lessons before it's to late and we are all together in the same mess.

About Dobrica Ćosić here's the news about his death. Again he's linked to SANU Memos I & II.
_http://www.sloboda.hr/umro-ratni-zlocinac-dobrica-cosic-autor-memoranduma-sanu/ (in Croatian)

In addition, I stumbled on this piece where it says that now ex president of Croatia wanted to change the constitution (which he really did, said so in his presidential campaign for 2nd run). Among other things that he said he wanted to change because of economy (to ease and increase foreign investments - sounds like to ease more colonial spreading), they caught him in wanting to change/erase Art. 143 (he justified it that this was written in war time, and that now wounds are healed and shouldn't be there any more).
_http://www.news-bar.hr/vijesti/politika/skandal-predsjednik-josipovi-iz-ustava-izbacuje-chlanak-koji-zabranjuje-stv (in Croatian)

That's in fact Art. 142:
The Constitution of the Republic of Croatia (consolidated text) _http://www.sabor.hr/Default.aspx?art=2405 said:
Article 142

A procedure entailing the association of the Republic of Croatia into alliances with other states may be initiated by at least one-third of the deputies of the Croatian Parliament, the President of the Republic and the Government of the Republic of the Croatia.

Any procedure for the association of the Republic of Croatia into alliances with other states, if such association leads, or may lead, to a renewal of a South Slavic state union or to any form of consolidated Balkan state is hereby prohibited.

Any association of the Republic of Croatia shall first be decided upon by the Croatian Parliament by a two-thirds majority of all deputies.

Any decision concerning the association of the Republic of Croatia shall be made in a referendum by a majority vote of all voters voting in the referendum.

Such a referendum shall be held within 30 days from the date on which the decision has been passed by the Croatian Parliament.

The provisions of this Article concerning association shall also pertain to the conditions and procedures for the dissociation of the Republic of Croatia.
People jumped because of paragraph 2 (permitting possibility of joining any South Slav union), but what got my focus is the last paragraph which states that in the same way Croatia could get out of EU. Without this article, I don't know how and if that would be possible in any feasible way.

And I should probably stop to cram these kinds of things in this topic...
 

Yozilla

The Living Force
#15
Avala said:
Also, you possibly didn’t see it in your post, but only good Serb for you is the one who works for Croatia. :)
No, i was only trying to point out that trivializing that war just btw all Serbs and all Croats is out of place. PTB wanted to dissolve Yugoslavia - which was, by the way, far from paradise - and they used both hegemonic and separatist followers to start bloodshed. Both were duped separatists Croats and hegemonic Yugoslavs; and all others here. Now German banks and corporations rule here just like during Nazi occupation in WW2. But there is no TITO on a horizon...
 
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