TM - relaxation technique or a cult?

Z...

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I have always regarded TM with suspicion especially after I witnessed one person's mental health severely deteriorating shortly after TM induction. Therefore, it is slightly unsettling that PTB seems to push TM into the mainstream medicine - _http://www.tm.org/blog/meditation/military-leaders/.

The author of this website _http://www.suggestibility.org/ claims TM is dangerous for mental health:
suggestibilty.org said:
Attorney Anthony DeNaro, former professor of economics and business law at the private TM university Maharishi University of Management, as well as being a former legal counsel to the same institution, described a very serious and deliberate pattern of fraud, and that "outright lies and deception, are used to cover-up or sanitize the dangerous reality on campus of:

A disturbing denial or avoidance syndrome, and even outright lies and deception, are used to cover-up or sanitize the dangerous reality on campus of very serious nervous breakdowns, episodes of dangerous and bizarre behavior, suicidal and homicidal ideation, threats and attempts, psychotic episodes, crime, depression and manic behavior that often accompanied roundings (intensive group meditations with brainwashing techniques). Euphemisms are employed to describe essentially dangerous, unstable and injurious behavior. "Unstressing," for example,

...There were meditators who experienced serious breakdowns during and following meditation. MIU and the counseling staff usually opted for banishment in these cases, although their practices often triggered mental breakdowns. Many students who experienced severe and uncontrollable trauma from meditation came to me for assistance and counseling since Jonathan Shapiro and his staff were punitive and hostile in their "therapeutic" approach.

In addition he claims TM is a cult.
More cult accusations can be found on this blog - here is a testimony from TM child _http://tmfree.blogspot.com/2007/02/program-pedophilia.html
 
The filmmaker David Lynch is possibly the main celebrity figurehead for the TM organization.

A documentary about David Lynch, David Wants to Fly (2010) was made by filmmaker David Sieveking. The filmmaker intended to make a documentary focusing on David Lynch, but as filming progressed it ended up becoming more of a criticism and questioning of the TM movement.

The full documentary is here:

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0payvR--nM

Aspiring filmmaker David Sieveking dreams of one day being as successful as his idol, David Lynch. In Spring 2006, Sieveking gets the chance to attend a seminar given by Lynch, in which the more famous David expounds on his sources of creativity, including transcendental meditation™ and levitation.

Could TM be the mystery behind Lynch’s dark, inscrutable films? The "flying monk" phenomenon belongs to a religious movement led by the Maharishi, who inspired the Beatles as well.

Lynch persuades Sieveking to meditate, opening up an entirely new chapter in his life. He visits adherents in India, Switzerland and the Netherlands and joins a pilgrimage to the source of the Ganges high in the Himalayas. But the more research the young filmmaker does, the more discrepancies surface.
- _http://www.documentaryedge.org.nz/2011/ak/film/david-wants-to-fly
 
I was listening to a Richard Wilbur lecture called Cosmic Consciousness recently. He is interesting I find. He recommended TM as one potential branch for certain types of meditators, and a lot of clinical studies are performed using TM because it is the quickest to pick up.

The results are relatively quick because the technique is so simple. He thought there might be a sort of collective consciousness around it that made results more rapid because of the millions of people in the world practicing it. And people generally get 'results' after the second or third session, whereas something like zazen might take months or years.

I'm a little dubious of the practice financially (which I think is the cult like aspect) of enrolling clients into centers for a fee that keeps multiplying over various levels of enrollment. But meditating with a mantra in mind seems like a pretty basic practice that probably goes back for centuries.

They use sanskrit mantras that are assigned, though there is a list online of all of the ones that they use, if you want to practice going through them without spending a fortune.

I do something like it, sometimes, when I want to sharpen my mind. Being very susceptible to programming in the hypnotic / meditative state and accompanying brain wave patterns, I just suggest choosing the affirmation that YOU want to work with, rather than being assigned one.

I use different sound tones to see how they feel. And sometimes more standard 'affirmations.'

So my intuition is, the practice is full of potential, and maybe avoid the 'church'.
 
Even though this thread is old, I thought I'd do an updated Google search on TM and have a look at the results.

To make a long story short, it looks like those who rave about it and seem to benefit from it most start from a condition somewhat like severe ADHD or PTSD from combat as reported by those advocating it for US service personnel and service personnel practitioners themselves.

Those who it causes problems for appear to have already had a potential to develop severe disturbances but they were at least in a somewhat functional state to begin with and were working and going about life with some sense of normalcy.

Those within the two extremes vary. Some report benefits and some say it's no better than taking some quiet time to relax and clear the mind without the extra sound of the mantra.

If anyone needs any links to verify any of the above, all they have to do is Google "Transcendental Meditation" and read through the first few pages of results because it's all right there.

Since everyone is different, my conclusion is that it's not for everybody, so I wouldn't understand why someone might push it as a panacea or a one-size-fits-all kind of thing unless they are more concerned about making money from it or gaining some fame than they are for the actual health of the client.

As far as the cult question is concerned, well...you can make any kind of cult or quasi-religious organization out of anything, like what was done with "TRIZ" which started out as a helpful method of multi-dimensional critical thinking and then became more like a closed system that's no longer experiencing open development but still has enthusiastic adherents that push it and believe it's all anyone needs.
 
I gave TM a shot a few years ago. I was a student at the time so i lucky only had to pay half the price because it is quite expensive. My experience of was interesting. It was made to be a very "spiritual" induction. Although they promote it as a tool, techniquie it has a very religious feel to it. Atleast in the induction, learning to do it.

Over the weeks, i ended up having a really bad experience with it, i feel it made my mental health deteriorate, and overall i became a very unhappy person. When i asked the teachers about this, they usueally said i wasn't doing it right or i was just getting through a big blockage and it would soon pass. Its never really passed, if i got over it for a short time it would come back and i really did discipline myself with TM for a while. In the end i found EE and im much better off for it.

I think these organizations have really nice minded folk in them who want to help, so there is this really nice atmosphere and community. BUt i know for me, it was just bad. Never been through such a bad time of mental health in my life, suicidal thoughts and the whole works. Its was pretty bad. So yeah, thought i would share my experience. Though im sure some people could do it and not have issues, they seem to pack a lot of science behind it. I even filmed david lynch skyping through to us here in perth for a seminar on it once. But i guess i got caught up in the magic of it all and david lynch makes it sound like a ticket to heaven.
 
A friend convinced me against my better judgement to go to a local TM group. The "leaders/teachers" weren't there that week, so I couldn't get my assigned mantra. I was instructed to just use "om". I never returned. It was so uncomfortable, and I didn't like the way they appeared to hero worship the one teacher. Plus, they were a very unfriendly and unwelcoming group which I found odd. I later had a chance to see the one guy speak at a wellness conference and was horribly turned off. He was pure ego.
 
I once went to a special screening of Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me and they had a number of the cast there fielding questions from the audience and discussing their experiences making the movie and show. Sherilyn Fenn who played Audrey Horne was one of them and she explained how David Lynch introduced her to TM. If how she came across was any indication of the effects of TM on people I wouldn't try it. She seemed really unhinged and unstable, constantly coming back to or referencing TM during questions and conversations that it didn't even apply to. Everything in a round about way always came back to it that there was a spokesman or religious fervor to it. It was actually sad to watch because I was a fan of her character on the show and the contrast between her behaviour and Sheryl Lee and Ray Wise was noticeable to everyone in the audience.

Maybe she was already like that to begin with, but whatever effect TM was having on her only seemed to exacerbate her issues more.
 
I've been curious about any relationship between the mantra and the mental disturbances that have been reported.

All my research into meditation, which includes personal experience, and some esoteric literature like Casteneda's Don Juan character's Toltec teachings and even Gurdjieff's comments concerning the value of reading his written work out loud, all refer at one time or another, and in one way or another, to sound and inner talking and its apparent effects on a person.

The Vipassana alone requires one to advance through the stage of "monkey mind" which, for those who've experienced it, is usually described as a chaos or cacaphony of sound, talking, thoughts, cross-thoughts and thinking.

On a different 'note', early afternoon about a month ago, I had sat back in my recliner to relax before my next run for the transportation dept at my job, when, just as I was about to doze off, I abruptly came to from a kind of shock. Exactly what happened I don't know, but the visual (and audio) memory of the experience was of being at a boundary of sorts where there was like a total and utter silence on the one side and an environment on the other that was as noisy as the inside of a theatre full of people waiting for a movie to begin.

This so-called boundary was like an experience of having all talking - all verbal sound - stop at the same instant, as well as all communication related gestures by the people who were making it. It was truly remarkable. Not so scary really, just the minor shock of the sensation of an abrupt 'all stop.' And it wasn't the sudden silence that was scary, it was a recognition that there had been so much sound to begin with that was so taken for granted that it wasn't noticed anymore. Like walking into the quiet lobby of a movie theatre and noticing for the first time, how noisy the inside auditorium was by comparison.

Anyway, after that experience, I recalled an obscure comment I once read from some Indian guru or whatever, that people don't meditate correctly and that their error was that they were using a dominant sound (mantra) to push the sound of their inner talking even further down to give themselves an illusion of inner peace.

And another guru or teacher of some sort had told a listener that the reason he was afraid and cringed at the sound of a train rolling by was because the sound of that was so loud, it threatened to 'extinguish' him and that was his fear. Since the context of that comment was something about thought being sound, I gather that the opposite of this 'extinguishing' would be all the inner talking that keeps the person's identity assembled moment-to-moment and that he necessarily stays tuned into, albeit unconsciously.

And of course the idea of assembling identity, along with one's reality itself, also ties into Casteneda's work re Don Juan's teachings about the assemblage point, identity, self-importance and all that talking we do.

So, with all things considered and especially with the above idea of the 'train example' in mind, I was wondering if the sound of the mantra might be acting like a threat of personal identity dissolution for some people. Like an unconscious level disconnect (or threat of it) from the very activity that is keeping them put together so to speak.
 
Buddy said:
So, with all things considered and especially with the above idea of the 'train example' in mind, I was wondering if the sound of the mantra might be acting like a threat of personal identity dissolution for some people. Like an unconscious level disconnect (or threat of it) from the very activity that is keeping them put together so to speak.

Or some form of hypnosis that lowers defenses. If Twin Peaks is anything to go on as far as what kind of inspiration David Lynch has received from TM, the kind of mantra and meditation they are doing could be leaving them open to some type of possession or attachments.
 
Buddy said:
I've been curious about any relationship between the mantra and the mental disturbances that have been reported.

All my research into meditation, which includes personal experience, and some esoteric literature like Casteneda's Don Juan character's Toltec teachings and even Gurdjieff's comments concerning the value of reading his written work out loud, all refer at one time or another, and in one way or another, to sound and inner talking and its apparent effects on a person.

The Vipassana alone requires one to advance through the stage of "monkey mind" which, for those who've experienced it, is usually described as a chaos or cacaphony of sound, talking, thoughts, cross-thoughts and thinking.

On a different 'note', early afternoon about a month ago, I had sat back in my recliner to relax before my next run for the transportation dept at my job, when, just as I was about to doze off, I abruptly came to from a kind of shock. Exactly what happened I don't know, but the visual (and audio) memory of the experience was of being at a boundary of sorts where there was like a total and utter silence on the one side and an environment on the other that was as noisy as the inside of a theatre full of people waiting for a movie to begin.

This so-called boundary was like an experience of having all talking - all verbal sound - stop at the same instant, as well as all communication related gestures by the people who were making it. It was truly remarkable. Not so scary really, just the minor shock of the sensation of an abrupt 'all stop.' And it wasn't the sudden silence that was scary, it was a recognition that there had been so much sound to begin with that was so taken for granted that it wasn't noticed anymore. Like walking into the quiet lobby of a movie theatre and noticing for the first time, how noisy the inside auditorium was by comparison.

Anyway, after that experience, I recalled an obscure comment I once read from some Indian guru or whatever, that people don't meditate correctly and that their error was that they were using a dominant sound (mantra) to push the sound of their inner talking even further down to give themselves an illusion of inner peace.

And another guru or teacher of some sort had told a listener that the reason he was afraid and cringed at the sound of a train rolling by was because the sound of that was so loud, it threatened to 'extinguish' him and that was his fear. Since the context of that comment was something about thought being sound, I gather that the opposite of this 'extinguishing' would be all the inner talking that keeps the person's identity assembled moment-to-moment and that he necessarily stays tuned into, albeit unconsciously.

And of course the idea of assembling identity, along with one's reality itself, also ties into Casteneda's work re Don Juan's teachings about the assemblage point, identity, self-importance and all that talking we do.

So, with all things considered and especially with the above idea of the 'train example' in mind, I was wondering if the sound of the mantra might be acting like a threat of personal identity dissolution for some people. Like an unconscious level disconnect (or threat of it) from the very activity that is keeping them put together so to speak.

You brought up a lot of interesting ideas Buddy. Sound definitely affects the brain in ways. I've seen shamans who have worked with music/sound for healing others. Some very deeply resonating drums were sometimes used to wake up or draw out attachments (or cause them to move to different spots in the body). I suppose some entities find some sounds as jarring as some people do. My hypothesis is that the altered state induces both the person and the entity to loosen up certain unconscious connections (from the shock, which is why it can sometimes feel like dis-integration), which makes it easier for the technician to release the attachment through further energetic or psychotherapeutic means.

Bioenergetic breathing works similarly. The energy level of the body changes fundamentally, and a person and other awarenesses are in unfamiliar territory and more susceptible to other influences (which may heal or harm). I think the same principle is behind the use of plant substances for healing purposes also.

Turgon said:
Buddy said:
So, with all things considered and especially with the above idea of the 'train example' in mind, I was wondering if the sound of the mantra might be acting like a threat of personal identity dissolution for some people. Like an unconscious level disconnect (or threat of it) from the very activity that is keeping them put together so to speak.

Or some form of hypnosis that lowers defenses. If Twin Peaks is anything to go on as far as what kind of inspiration David Lynch has received from TM, the kind of mantra and meditation they are doing could be leaving them open to some type of possession or attachments.
Yeah, the altered/shock state can create openings for things to enter which you don't want also. Hypnosis only seems to be part of what's totally going on... there's also elements of disintegration OSIT.
 
whitecoast said:
You brought up a lot of interesting ideas Buddy. Sound definitely affects the brain in ways.

Indeed, and I'm thinking that sound - the sound coming from the droning on and on of our own voice in our own head, both consciously and unconsciously - affects our sense of I particularly and maybe in specific ways.

Something we're probably all familiar with but may never have fully realized the possible significance of, is that thing we sometimes say, or have heard others say, when something gets too loud: "Turn that noise down! I can't hear myself think!" ...and all the variations.

When we say that, what is the implication of what might happen if the volume of the noise doesn't get turned down or even gets louder? We'll go crazy? Mad angry? Why? Surely any reaction of going bonkers isn't due to a biological requirement to protect the audio sense because the gurus and neurological/physiological specialists tell us that in such a case, the body would just shut off the sense in it's entirety for a time. So, why are we so concerned with an ongoing ability to 'hear ourselves think' which also amounts to hearing ourselves talk to ourselves?

It's tempting to say that it's just when we're disassociating and want to stay that way for a time, and maybe that's all it is. Seems like there might be more to it though. Not sure yet.
 
Buddy said:
Indeed, and I'm thinking that sound - the sound coming from the droning on and on of our own voice in our own head, both consciously and unconsciously - affects our sense of I particularly and maybe in specific ways.

Something we're probably all familiar with but may never have fully realized the possible significance of, is that thing we sometimes say, or have heard others say, when something gets too loud: "Turn that noise down! I can't hear myself think!" ...and all the variations.

When we say that, what is the implication of what might happen if the volume of the noise doesn't get turned down or even gets louder? We'll go crazy? Mad angry? Why? Surely any reaction of going bonkers isn't due to a biological requirement to protect the audio sense because the gurus and neurological/physiological specialists tell us that in such a case, the body would just shut off the sense in it's entirety for a time. So, why are we so concerned with an ongoing ability to 'hear ourselves think' which also amounts to hearing ourselves talk to ourselves?

It's tempting to say that it's just when we're disassociating and want to stay that way for a time, and maybe that's all it is. Seems like there might be more to it though. Not sure yet.

Hearing oneself think is an interesting topic as is the idea that interrupting one's ability to hear one's self talk can be destabilizing to the sense of self. Can it be different for primarily introverted orientations compared to extroverted ones? Some people are able to sit in silence comfortably, whereas others are not. It is hypothesized that those who cannot sit in silence are uncomfortable with the sound of their own inner thoughts and would need some sound or activity to distract themselves. For those who are predominantly introverted in attitude, the habitual activity is abstracting the external world. They may need to hear themselves think to make sense of the world. So the two types may react differently, with the habitual introvert being more disturbed if his hearing of his own thoughts are disturbed - osit.

There is research done which shows that the basic mechanism behind hearing ourselves think is very similar to hearing a voice speaking. For hearing our thoughts, there seems to be a specific area in the brain which tells us that it is our own thoughts that we are listening to and not thoughts of others. This area is the supplementary motor area. Some researchers have pointed out ( link) that poor activation of the supplementary motor area can result in mistaking one's own thoughts as that of others, which can lead to auditory hallucinations (or hearing voices in one's head).

Ordinarily, there are many different voices in ourselves which we can correlate with the "many i's" but somehow there is an overall ownership of thoughts which tells us that it is us and not others who are thinking these thoughts. If the supplementary motor area is damaged, such ownership of thoughts can get disturbed. This can be very destabilizing. But this is just one possible mechanism for destabilization and may not be directly correlated to the meditation angle.
 
obyvatel said:
Hearing oneself think is an interesting topic as is the idea that interrupting one's ability to hear one's self talk can be destabilizing to the sense of self. Can it be different for primarily introverted orientations compared to extroverted ones?

Good way to put it and I'd be willing to bet the difference between those we normally think of as extroverts and introverts is significant to the issue of TM and bad reactions to it. Just how significant I don't know but on the face of it it seems like it would be so.

obyvatel said:
Some people are able to sit in silence comfortably, whereas others are not. It is hypothesized that those who cannot sit in silence are uncomfortable with the sound of their own inner thoughts and would need some sound or activity to distract themselves. For those who are predominantly introverted in attitude, the habitual activity is abstracting the external world. They may need to hear themselves think to make sense of the world. So the two types may react differently, with the habitual introvert being more disturbed if his hearing of his own thoughts are disturbed - osit.

Yes, I've crossed paths with that idea before and I know people who, while quietly engaged in some activity, say they also need the sound of the TV or to be able to watch it, while simultaneously listening to music. Never noticed the distinction between introversion and extroversion in such cases but if memory serves, I think I would have thought of them as introverts.

obyvatel said:
There is research done which shows that the basic mechanism behind hearing ourselves think is very similar to hearing a voice speaking. For hearing our thoughts, there seems to be a specific area in the brain which tells us that it is our own thoughts that we are listening to and not thoughts of others. This area is the supplementary motor area. Some researchers have pointed out ( link) that poor activation of the supplementary motor area can result in mistaking one's own thoughts as that of others, which can lead to auditory hallucinations (or hearing voices in one's head).

From the abstract:

We hypothesized that the supplementary motor area is related to the distinction between one's own mental processing (auditory verbal imagery) and similar processing that is attributed to non-self author (auditory verbal hallucination).

Thanks for that! I now know the correct term for the phenomena I was writing about is "auditory verbal imagery" and a possible issue at hand is the distinction between "the perceived and the imagined" in the "modality-specific sensory cortex."

I downloaded the 6 page clinical paper with its interesting and useful-looking citations as well.

obyvatel said:
Ordinarily, there are many different voices in ourselves which we can correlate with the "many i's" but somehow there is an overall ownership of thoughts which tells us that it is us and not others who are thinking these thoughts.

Perhaps informally we might say the voice of mother or father as negative introject might "sound" like them in our inner ear so to speak, yet we normally recognize these voices as our own internalizations of those things we've heard, even when they still influence us and are, in that way, ours to own.

obyvatel said:
If the supplementary motor area is damaged, such ownership of thoughts can get disturbed. This can be very destabilizing. But this is just one possible mechanism for destabilization and may not be directly correlated to the meditation angle.

Maybe not, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for your input and the linked paper. I'll be saving that clinical reference until forever. Seems like it could only come in handy. Hopefully Z will find some of this info becoming interesting and maybe relevant to the original question. If TPTB are pushing TM into mainstream medicine, it seems more like idiocracy in action at this point.
 
Interesting conversation. Maybe I have become overly suspicious through the years but it seems to me, anything promoted as beneficial in a mainstream, out-front sort of way and is allowed or encouraged to flourish isn't something that's truly beneficial. TM would fall into this category it sounds like. Twin Peaks was definitely one creepy, bizarre, dark presentation about possession. I watched the whole series only because it was discussed so much on the forum here. It had this quality of flatness to it that was so strange.

Turgon said:
Buddy said:
So, with all things considered and especially with the above idea of the 'train example' in mind, I was wondering if the sound of the mantra might be acting like a threat of personal identity dissolution for some people. Like an unconscious level disconnect (or threat of it) from the very activity that is keeping them put together so to speak.

Or some form of hypnosis that lowers defenses. If Twin Peaks is anything to go on as far as what kind of inspiration David Lynch has received from TM, the kind of mantra and meditation they are doing could be leaving them open to some type of possession or attachments.

I've had my own experiences with guided meditations that where presented as being beneficial in connecting oneself to "higher" energies, beings and altering the physiology to promote "ascension". All very light filled and spiritual, presented with a quality of advanced knowledge. I did this fairly regularly for 2.5 years and when I began feeling my body responding and being influenced by this, I dropped it like a hot potato, just when it was starting to work! I experienced a shock. My perspective changed instantaneously to seeing these practices not as being beneficial, but long term conditioning to lay down pathways for possession. This wasn't a mainstream system like I mentioned above, but hidden and protected to shield it from corruption which, I suppose, added to its allure of being authentic.
 
A little more on this topic.

Yesterday I heard an advertisement on the radio for TM and David Lynch was mentioned as a practioner, so using his celebrity to sell the system. This was the first time I've heard TM being promoted this way and I thought of the conversation here.

A few hours later I picked up my grandson from kindergarten and on the way home he repeated "Om" in a droning monotone for a good 2 minutes which is a long time for a 6 yr. old. I asked a few questions and he said his teacher taught the kids this and when I asked why he was doing it just then, he said his sister (also in the car) was talking to much and he wanted her to be quiet. He seemed to be hypnotizing himself. I'm not sure where he picked this up, from his school teacher or some other place, very curious.
 
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