To bee or not two be

[agni]

Was reading Ouspensky the other day and couldn't help to notice simlarity between two words BEEHIVE and BEHAVE (the way englishmen would pronouce it). Beehive mentality, can be paraphrased as Behave Mentality in terms of obidience.

Now I am wondering if these two words have the same origins. They seem to have appeared about the same time.



=========
Word: Beehive
Pronunciation:
\ˈbē-ˌhīv\
Function:
noun
Date:
14th century

1: hive 12: something resembling a hive for bees: as a: a scene of crowded activity b: a woman's hairdo that is conical in shape

&

Word: Behave
Pronunciation:
\bi-ˈhāv, bē-\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
be·haved; be·hav·ing
Etymology:
Middle English behaven, from be- + haven to have, hold
Date:
15th century

transitive verb 1 : to manage the actions of (oneself) in a particular way 2 : to conduct (oneself) in a proper manner intransitive verb 1 : to act, function, or react in a particular way 2 : to conduct oneself properly

 

[PepperFritz]

Now I am wondering if these two words have the same origins. They seem to have appeared about the same time.

No, they are not related.

"BEEHIVE" is a compound word, combining "BEE" and "HIVE", the etymologies of which are as follows:

BEE:
O.E. beo, from P.Gmc. *bion (cf. O.H.G. bia, M.Du. bie), possibly from PIE base *bhi- "quiver." Used metaphorically for "busy worker" since 1535. Sense of "meeting of neighbors to unite their labor for the benefit of one of their number," 1769, Amer.Eng., is from comparison to the social activity of the insect; this was extended to other senses (e.g. spelling bee, first attested 1809). Beehive is first attested c.1325; as a kind of hairstyle, 1960.

HIVE:
O.E. hyf, from P.Gmc. *khufiz (cf. O.N. hufr "hull of a ship"), from PIE *keup- "round container, bowl" (cf. Skt. kupah "hollow, pit, cave," Gk. kypellon "cup," L. cupa "tub, cask, vat"). Figurative sense of "swarming, busy place" is from 1634.

The etymology of "BEHAVE" is as follows:

"BEHAVE":
c.1410, from be- intensive prefix + have in the sense of "to have or bear oneself in a particular way, comport." O.E. behabban meant "to contain." Behavior is 1490, from havour, altered (by influence of have) from aver, from O.Fr. aveir "to have." Behaviorism coined 1913 by U.S. psychologist John B. Watson (1878-1958).

While "HIVE" and "HAVE" may look and sound similar in terms of modern spelling and pronunciation, in the middle ages they would have been pronounced quite differently ("wheave" vs "hava"), as suggested by their origins. Although the two words do, coincidentally, involve a sense of "containment" -- i.e. a "hive" is a "container" for bees, and to "have" is to "contain", and to "behave" is to "contain oneself".

 

[agni]

Thank You PepperFritz. Time to familiarize myself with etymology more. How trustworthy do you think modern day etymology is ? Do you know by any chance any good source to find out how etymology dictionaries are compiled ?

While "HIVE" and "HAVE" may look and sound similar in terms of modern spelling and pronunciation, in the middle ages they would have been pronounced quite differently ("wheave" vs "hava"), as suggested by their origins. Although the two words do, coincidentally, involve a sense of "containment" -- i.e. a "hive" is a "container" for bees, and to "have" is to "contain", and to "behave" is to "contain oneself".

As far as "wheave" vs "hava", rearrange/extract couple of letters from "wheave" and we have - "we have". Too many coincidences :)

Probably, it's my mind playing tricks on me of trying to see what I want to see in both cases of "beehive" vs "behave" & "wheave" vs "hava".

 

[PepperFritz]

How trustworthy do you think modern day etymology is ? Do you know by any chance any good source to find out how etymology dictionaries are compiled ?

Not sure what you mean by "modern day etymology" and "trustworthy". The study of the English language is a pretty straightforward and well-established; the history and origin of English words are traced back through their appearance in various written texts throughout the ages, as well as their relationship/borrowing/evolution from the words of other influential languages. Where etymologists are able to provide a clear demonstrable history/evolution of a word, they do so; and when clear sources are lacking and they are relying on conjecture and/or speculation, they so indicate. It's a massive group effort whereby the scholarship of one generation builds upon the previous one.

The grand-daddy of all etymological dictionaries is the Oxford English Dictionary (in its complete, unabridged form), and it remains the gold standard. If you really want to get a sense of the vast amount of time and first-rate scholarly resources that went into (and continues to go into) the compilation of the OED, I highly recommend any of the numerous books that have been published about it, especially "Caught in the Web of Words: J. A. H. Murray and the Oxford English Dictionary".

As far as "wheave" vs "hava", rearrange/extract couple of letters from "wheave" and we have - "we have". Too many coincidences :)

Yet they remain unconnected "coincidences". It's difficult to explain how far off the mark your "approach" to this subject is, due to your lack of knowledge about it. It's like someone trying to tell a zoologist that a tiger and a zebra MUST be closely related, because they both have stripes and a tail. I had a strong interest in ancient languages from a young age, and am fortunate to have studied most of the old languages that are incorporated into our current modern English -- i.e. Classical Latin and Greek, Old French, Gaelic, Welsh, Anglo-Saxon (now known as "Old English"), and Middle English. Therefore, when I look at just about any English word, I can very quickly identify its meaning and history, based on what are, to me, readily identifiable components. Much in the same way a zoologist can quickly identify the various biological components that makes a species relationship apparent. Etymology is more science than art.

English is an incredibly rich language, with almost every word laden with fascinating social, religious, and political history. A good start for the layman to get a sense of this is Melvyn Bragg's very good BBC television series and accompanying book "The Adventure of English: The Biography of a Language".

 

[agni]

Not sure what you mean by "modern day etymology" and "trustworthy". The study of the English language is a pretty straightforward and well-established; the history and origin of English words are traced back through their appearance in various written texts throughout the ages, as well as their relationship/borrowing/evolution from the words of other influential languages. Where etymologists are able to provide a clear demonstrable history/evolution of a word, they do so; and when clear sources are lacking and they are relying on conjecture and/or speculation, they so indicate. It's a massive group effort whereby the scholarship of one generation builds upon the previous one.

I come from the perspective, that if history has been twisted for political and control reasons, that same can apply to etymology.

Yet they remain unconnected "coincidences". It's difficult to explain how far off the mark your "approach" to this subject is, due to your lack of knowledge about it. It's like someone trying to tell a zoologist that a tiger and a zebra MUST be closely related, because they both have stripes and a tail.

They are unconnected. After reading your analogy with zebra and tiger, you do make me laugh at my approach and my own foolishness, I'll remember that when I will be looking at such "coincidences"(if they can be even called that, and that one of the things you are pointing out at, right ?) As I mentioned in previous post I am seeing what I want to see. And you see right, my approach is an approach of complete amateur.

Thus I believe my post is very out of line, and I see I was asking these question for selfish reasons, things that I found are interesting to ME, not to forum members, nor I think they are of real benefit to anyone doing work. I apologize for bringing noise to the forum again. I clearly see that my bs levels are still very high, and only "valuable" contribution I can provide is to "Baked Noodles" section of the forum. It means more reading, learning and self-evaluation for me , before "contributing" again. I really thank you for helping me seeing that !!!

 

[PepperFritz]

Thus I believe my post is very out of line, and I see I was asking these question for selfish reasons, things that I found are interesting to ME, not to forum members, nor I think they are of real benefit to anyone doing work.

I strongly disagree, and I apologize if I contributed to making you feel that way. Though you did not get the answer you would have liked with the words in question, there was nothing whatsoever wrong with asking the question in the first place. I would never want to discourage anyone from wondering about the origins of and connections between words. Sometimes you will sense a connection between two words, look up the etymology, and discover that they ARE related. And each time you look up a word, you will learn a little more about the history of words. Even with my own background, I will sometimes be SURE that there must be a connection between this and that word, only to discover that they are in fact completely unrelated. So....

I come from the perspective, that if history has been twisted for political and control reasons, that same can apply to etymology.

And you are not wrong in general, just wrong in this particular instance. Also, with modern etymology there is just far less "wiggle room" for those kind of shenanigans than with historical analysis. You will find that the following Wikipedia article confirms some of your suspicions, as it mentions some of the instances where "false" or "erroneous" etymologies have been perpetrated for political, racist, and class reasons.

False Etymology
Link: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_etymology

If you do a search on Google, coupling "etymology" with words like "political", "race", "class", "religion", etc., I'm sure you will find some interesting data.

:)

 

[agni]

I strongly disagree, and I apologize if I contributed to making you feel that way. Though you did not get the answer you would have liked with the words in question, there was nothing whatsoever wrong with asking the question in the first place. I would never want to discourage anyone from wondering about the origins of and connections between words. Sometimes you will sense a connection between two words, look up the etymology, and discover that they ARE related. And each time you look up a word, you will learn a little more about the history of words. Even with my own background, I will sometimes be SURE that there must be a connection between this and that word, only to discover that they are in fact completely unrelated. So....

Oh, no ! Thank you, but no need to apologize ! :) If anything this conversation helped me to see certain things and I find it very beneficial and in fact quite encouraging. Thank you for the input.

As I've noticed I've often post question I could have found answers myself if I do enough digging. My post was more of an "I find it interesting, let me share". I took very little consideration of how it can benefit to others besides me. Not to mention I came speculating over something I saw without having any kind of reasonable support/proof to back up what I am saying, which goes unparallel with direction of a forum. If I understand correctly, that's what makes it noise.

This does not mean that I am not going to keep learning about etymology, just the way I do things and the way I bring up subjects in general needs to be reconsidered and changed towards more objectivity.

 

[Johnno]

As I've noticed I've often post question I could have found answers myself if I do enough digging. My post was more of an "I find it interesting, let me share". I took very little consideration of how it can benefit to others besides me. Not to mention I came speculating over something I saw without having any kind of reasonable support/proof to back up what I am saying, which goes unparallel with direction of a forum. If I understand correctly, that's what makes it noise.

This does not mean that I am not going to keep learning about etymology, just the way I do things and the way I bring up subjects in general needs to be reconsidered and changed towards more objectivity.

Nevertheless, you've put something out there, found a bit about it and then found something else about yourself in the process and about the way you do things.

That's pretty cool. :)

 

[noise]

Gonna post a thought here from perhaps the far deep reaches of space. :)

When I first read the first sentence of your initial post agni, I imagined a similarity.

If the concept of beehive were taken in the context of the mind and today's society, people running to and fro, barely even able to live a life, scattered and frantic; Kind of like the situation with today's bee's. Scatterbrained. Over worked, stressed. Following that train of thought, in terms of the push and pull of today's world there is one thing these scatterbrained, lost, fear induced people will do - behave. I'll certainly do whatever 'the authorities' want, don't imagine tazering much fun.

I recall there was something in the Wave series about Linguistics. No actual knowledge of it myself. Just wanted to share what came to mind immediately when I saw the two words together.

 

[PepperFritz]

Noise:

The associations that the sound similarities bring to mind would be a great basis for a clever poem or lyric that explores the reality of "be-ing" and "be-having" in this society, and the behaviours ("bee-haviours"?) of "bees" in "bee-hives". But an actual linguistic connection between the words "be" and "bee"? None whatsoever, I'm afraid....

 

[agni]

PepperFritz,

well... you've asked for it :)


To bee or not to be..
I've asked myself how could it be ?

it all depends on goals you see.
One walks a path to be a bee,
One walks a path to BE.

If you to BE - you will behave,
Obeying Free Will of ones you meet on your way.
If you to BEE you'll too behave,
But likely not on your own - more in beehivish way.

One word can mean a lot, not same,
It's who you are & path you take.

 

[PepperFritz]

Well done, Agni!

 

[JonnyRadar]

agni, well done indeed! that was very well-crafted.

this discussion brings to mind for me the Language of the Birds/Green Language, and the possible connections between words that are otherwise not "linguistically" connected.

Fulcanelli writes in the 3rd chapter of Mysteries of the Cathedrals

First of all it is necessary for me to say a word about the term gothic as applied to French art, which imposed its rules on all the productions of the Middle Ages and whose influence extends from the twelfth to the fifteenth century. Some have claimed - wrongly - that it came from the Goths, the ancient Germanic people. Others alleged that the word, suggesting something barbarous, was bestowed in derision on a form of art, whose originality and extreme peculiarity were shocking to the people of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Such is the opinion of the classical school, imbued with the decadent principles of the Renaissance. But truth, preserved in the speech of the common people, has ensured the continued use of the expression gothic art, in spite of the efforts of the Academy to substitute the term ogival art. There was an obscure reason for this, which should have made our linguists ponder, since they are always on the look-out for the derivation of words. How does it come about that so few compilers of dictionaries have lighted upon the right one? The simple fact is that the explanation must be sought in the cabalistic origin of the words and not in its literal root.

...

If the usual sense of words does not allow us any discovery capable of elevating and instructing us, of bringing us nearer to our Creator, then words become useless. The spoken word, which gives man his indisputable superiority, his dominion over every living thing, loses its nobility, its greatness, its beauty. It becomes no more than a distressing vanity.

...

Finally I would add that argot (cant) is one of the forms derived from the Language of the Birds, parent and doyen of all other languages - the one spoken by philosophers and diplomats. It was knowledge of this language which Jesus revealed to his Apostles, by sending them his spirit, the Holy Ghost. This is the language which teaches the mystery of things and unveils the most hidden truths. The ancient Incas called it the Court Language, because it was used by diplomats. To them it was the key to the double science, sacred and profane. In the Middle Ages it was called the Gay Science and the Gay Knowledge, the Language of the Gods, the Dive-Bouteille. Tradition assures us that men spoke it before the building of the Tower of Babel, which event cased this sacred language to be perverted and to be totally forgotten by the greater part of humanity. Today, apart from cant, we find its character in a few local dialects, such as Picard, Provencal, etc. and in the language of the gypsies.

[bolding mine]

and Laura writes in The True Identity of Fulcanelli and The Da Vinci Code
_http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/fulcanelli_da_vinci_code.htm

I would like to make a note of the fact that, after spending some time trying to find out who Arnaud de Moles actually was, the information I was able to obtain suggests that it was a name given to a group, The Companions Devoted to Liberty, or, perhaps an anagram. In terms of Green Language clues, the name "De Moles" is rich with meaning, ranging from the possibility of homophonic pronunciation "de Molay," as in the last Grand Master of the Templars, as well as the meaning of "mole," which, in French means "stone," or a jetty: a breakwater. In English, the Green Language leads us to a creature that lives underground, or the "going underground" of a tradition. And then, of course, it can also say "Mea Deus Leonard." A reader may find a better solution. There is more, but I don't want to divert onto that subject at the moment because I have a story to tell.

...

One evening, as we discussed Fulcanelli around the fire in Patrick's charming farm-house, alchemical laboratory, warming our glasses of amber Armagnac in our hands, Patrick mentioned "Hendaye." My brain suddenly snapped to attention. "What did you say?" He repeated the word and I suddenly understood something quite profound. You see, the word "Hendaye," pronounced by a native Frence speaker sounds very much like "Onde," which is French for "Wave." I had begun The Wave Series in 1999 and worked on it well into 2000 before an offer was made to translate it into French, at which time I learned the French word "Onde." But I had never heard it properly pronounced before.

So, with this sudden realization, put together with the other clues that were, one by one, revealing themselves to us, we began to speculate on the real reason for Fulcanelli to have written this piece which, essentially replicates most of the same information he includes in his final chapters of Dwellings of the Philosophers. Could the reason have been purely "Green Language," to relate The Wave to Onde via Hendaye? Was it a clue specifically for us, at that moment in space/time, when the "right people" with the right keys were all brought together in the peaceful French countryside overlooking the Garonne River, the "Rhine of France?"

[bolding mine]

so, i am curious about this distinction. it seems that PepperFritz was speaking strictly of etymology as it's practiced academically, whereas agni and noise were hinting to the "hidden" connections between the two words. perhaps speaking in Green Language, "be" and "bee" are actually quite similar.

 

[noise]

Hi PepperFritz,

Tried my hand at a poem. I like agni's far better for simplicity and directness. Here goes

Beehive\behave

Scratter brain a buzzing just like a beehive, can’t figure out why the world is plagued with many lies.
From birth to death, breast to the grave, we’ve been force fed to behave.
Coming or going? Pushed from every side, a constipated mindset, makes me want to hide.
Born again yet lost, unaware of how to save, living life so ignorantly feeling like a slave.
My mind abuzz with so many things, waking up – and things are strange.
Compared to how I made it up before, reality’s got me crying balled up on the floor.
Drawing conclusions on all is how I used to be, it’s taken so much away from the truth of reality.
My mind is a swarm of chattering little I’s, the little I think I know is all just more of my lies.
Drowning now in a land of fake milk and honey, create more falsity if you give the corp's more money.
As the thoughts end their swirl in my beehive of a mind, I’ll behave as 1, as there's only 1 to find.

Shwankin,
-noise

 

[PepperFritz]

... it seems that PepperFritz was speaking strictly of etymology as it's practiced academically....

Yes, I was.

...whereas agni and noise were hinting to the "hidden" connections between the two words. perhaps speaking in Green Language, "be" and "bee" are actually quite similar.

The Wikipedia entry on Language of the Birds tells us:

"In medieval France, the language of the birds (la langue des oiseaux) was a secret language of the Troubadours, connected with the Tarot, allegedly based on puns and symbolism drawn from homophony, e. g. an inn called au lion d'or "the Golden Lion" is allegedly "code" for au lit on dort "in the bed one sleeps"...."

This secret invented language (used, no doubt, to keep "outsiders" from knowing what was being talked about], could be related to what Agni "sensed" -- a situation where one word ("be), that is homophonous to and a pun on another word ("bee") may have, and may be, in some secret society somewhere, used to convey a hidden meaning, to those "in the know". Perhaps Agni was a troubadour in another life....?