To Run before you can Walk

[Liberty]

Weeks ago I discovered a gem of a book called "Signs of the Times Commentaries - The Work" by Scott Ogrin, Joe Quinn and Henry See from 2004, published in 2005, it seems to be available in part here http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sott.net%2Fpage%2F2-Sott-net-Archive&h=95aed, but it is difficult to navigate your way round as you need to now the dates of the entries - so if anyone can assist in the original format it would be greatly appreciated.

Many of you might have already read this book but as I've only been active on the forum since last year, "The Work Commentaries" are refreshingly new to me, they start on Jan 22 2004 and continue on until April 27 2004 it is not exactly a daily blog, but pretty much. I've read it and reread it, and every single page holds insights as to the ways of thinking, behaviour, internal and external consideration, world views and much more. The style of writing is fluid, engaging and approachable. I felt I was part of a conversation - questioning and opening up neural pathways that had had restricted access, denied to me due to lies I had built up throughout my life. Common deceptions from childhood, parents, schooling, society, programmed ways of thinking - only inside the box.
How could I comment and share with the network this masterpiece of lively debate that's held in this book. What could I possibly add, that had any value apart from it sounding like noise or enthusiast praise and awe. I have a programme/predator that says you have no value. So I have stayed quiet, mute and stagnant, whilst trying to observe what's going on and hoping to find a way through this block.

What I do think is, that within the fellowship and forum we are all learning and at the appropriate level for where we are and who we are, but I personally felt I had years to catch up on, and not much time to do it (I was impatient with my learning). The reading list is vast even with starting with the key ones, my diet has been adapted over the past 2 years, EE needs space and time to fully gain the benefits and then I needed to include vitamins and supplements that I am lacking so that my body and mind can really start to work properly, as for a good nights sleep this seems to have gone out of the window due to hormonal changes going on in my life. So all of these changes are happening but still it doesn't necessarily mean that I learn because I have so much hidden crap and confusion still within myself.
I've heard the term used by Laura that you can't move from 3rd grade to 4th until you've learnt what you need in 3rd grade, so for anyone struggling with their lack of progress I would whole heartily recommend "The Work Commentaries" as it has shored up my fragile foundations enabling me to have a clearer understanding and also knowing that this is a constant in my life.

Along this path I read this thread http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=20872.0 all of this thread has been important to me as it has helped me see myself and others even if only briefly. from this part of the thread "To a Louse on seeing one on a lady's bonnet at Church" and how Mouravieff talks about two ways of developing discernment. - the negative method of exclusion is recommended to man 3, that is the intellectual type. and - the positvie method, or method of integration, is recommended to man 2, the emotional type.

I am man 2 and what a 'AHA' moment or light bulb going on, occurred with reading this, not only for myself but understanding others around me. I guess that all of us have our lessons to learn and it is completely and totally our free will and choice as to when this is going to happen but having an AIM is a good idea. What I have learnt is that even with all the information available on this network that's there to help you learn I could still get lost. It was as if I had the guide book and map but what I needed to do was to keep my head up.
Like on any journey , you have to be consistently looking ahead, behind, to the sides, taking in the landscape and changing surroundings if we have our heads buried in a map we can not be aware of what is upon us until it smacks us in the face. Which is what has happened to me.

So it appears to involve integration of the intellect and the emotion - a guide and an analytical approach is essential but also an engagement with the heart and a synthesis of this information is essential too. Combined and working together as opposed to battling against each other - seems to be the way.l

Most of all I want to say that to actually break through a barrier and work within the network is key and here lays my predator again and that I find it too hard , pride stops me from asking the way, that I can do this on my own or that I will be revealed completely as being inadequate. Thanks for your time in reading this.

 

[Psalehesost]

Weeks ago I discovered a gem of a book called "Signs of the Times Commentaries - The Work" by Scott Ogrin, Joe Quinn and Henry See from 2004, published in 2005, it seems to be available in part here http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sott.net%2Fpage%2F2-Sott-net-Archive&h=95aed, but it is difficult to navigate your way round as you need to now the dates of the entries - so if anyone can assist in the original format it would be greatly appreciated.

[...]

I've heard the term used by Laura that you can't move from 3rd grade to 4th until you've learnt what you need in 3rd grade, so for anyone struggling with their lack of progress I would whole heartily recommend "The Work Commentaries" as it has shored up my fragile foundations enabling me to have a clearer understanding and also knowing that this is a constant in my life.

Regarding the book, you might then perhaps be interested in Essays On Life On Planet Earth - it's basically a second edition of the various SOTT Commentaries with them brought together into one book. (while the sections other than The Work are thematically "different", it all pretty much overlaps in scope and interrelates into a greater whole) You'll see my post on it at the bottom in the linked thread - I also find these commentaries quite helpful, as they emphasize some basic points and understandings, and reflecting on it allows them to sink in further. Much to put into practice.

 

[Liberty]

Thanks Psalehesost, I will order a copy of "Essays on Life on Planet Earth" and thanks for directing me to this thread, as I definitely need as much grounding as possible.

From Galahad
What it doesn't discuss are shocks.

I've found that the ideas above are both preparatory work for shocks and necessary follow-up work after shocks. The two go hand in hand. They do not, however, replace shocks to the system, those moments when one feels vertiginous because some fundamental postulate one believes about existence or oneself is shown to be dramatically wrong.

One instance could be the abrupt realization that something you have been doing, all the while thinking it was done for the benefit of someone you say you care for, has been hurting them and was done out of self-interest. While that realization may come as the result of a drawn-out process, I think the odds are better that it will really hit you in the gut if you are given a mirror.

If we do the first work day in and day out, we are laying the groundwork for a quantum jump. The shock releases the built-up tensions and you are able to break through the wall and catch a glimpse of what is on the other side. The subsequent work solidifies the breach, rendering it permanent. If it isn't done, then you fall back behind the wall again.

You see something of shocks being given to members of this forum, and you notice that some people go running off while others understand the gift and use it. Shocks don't have to be violently delivered. Sometimes it can be a simple statement of fact.

Mirrors and shocks bring up the question of group work. As Gurdjieff said, no one can get out alone. You need the support of the network, of others who are able to see you. It is easier to see the programmes and blind spots of someone else than it is to see them in yourself. Working with a group of people, as we are here in the forum and in our private Yahoo groups, allows us to see ourselves through the eyes of others who are all working towards the same goal.

It is the network that is the surest means of breaking down the walls.

At the beginning, we break down some smaller walls by learning to open ourselves to others, showing parts of ourselves that we usually keep hidden. As confidence and trust builds, we are able to gradually reveal more and more. As we become more open, we can receive feedback.

Of all of the techniques, it is the use of the network that I have found the most useful, but only if one is doing the other work at the same time.

I found this very pertinent to me as I have been through a shock, which I have felt was delivered violently - where I have literally felt gutted, this has taken me some time of reflection to understand, but I do feel that I am ready to start working now.

 

[Buddy]

Most of all I want to say that to actually break through a barrier and work within the network is key and here lays my predator again and that I find it too hard , pride stops me from asking the way, that I can do this on my own or that I will be revealed completely as being inadequate. Thanks for your time in reading this.

Hi Liberty. You may recall this from the IFS therapeutic model thread:

This is the problem of someone trying to work alone, through pride or lack of self-esteem, or having so much self-importance that they cannot open up and share the mental processes they are going through for feedback. Again the work of a group is CRUCIAL. That's one of the reasons that the work of QFG requires the giving up of all "sacred cows." And we have set the example by giving up any "belief" that the C's are anything other than an interesting phenomenon that must be researched and analyzed before anything is considered even possible, much less probable.

We all could probably set a similar example for ourselves by thinking of our own "assumptions" as sacred cows that could be brought to the surface and exposed to light. IOW, anytime that you're not actually on the forum, you could be asking yourself "why?"

Why did I just do that? Why did I say that? Why am I thinking that? What assumptions, thoughts, beliefs, 'rules of thumb' do I have that would translate the perceptions I just had to the action I am now taking? What is the DATA I'm acting on?

These are the same questions that are asked of everyone here, so if you're already asking them and getting answers then you ARE doing something on your own. Then when you're on the forum, you'd be that much ahead wouldn't you? All you need is sincerity and self-honesty, OSIT.

If you can manage that much, I'd say you're more than adequate! So, does this handle the 'pride and adequacy' issue for the present? :)

 

[Liberty]

Hi Bud the excuse I've put forward in the past is that I have too many things going on in my life to be fully committed to "The Work" I run out of time, energy and in a sense head space seems to be a problem for me, I will also put others first so that my boundaries are eroded. But is that really the truth or I am deceiving myself yet again. I have felt that I have been trying to ride two horses at the same time, trying to keep the life in the matrix on some kind of course which inevitably is draining me dry and leaving me with very little space to form a clear perspective of my own thoughts that I then can offer to the network.

These are the same questions that are asked of everyone here, so if you're already asking them and getting answers then you ARE doing something on your own. Then when you're on the forum, you'd be that much ahead wouldn't you? All you need is sincerity and self-honesty, OSIT.

 

[obyvatel]

Hi Bud the excuse I've put forward in the past is that I have too many things going on in my life to be fully committed to "The Work" I run out of time, energy and in a sense head space seems to be a problem for me, I will also put others first so that my boundaries are eroded. But is that really the truth or I am deceiving myself yet again. I have felt that I have been trying to ride two horses at the same time, trying to keep the life in the matrix on some kind of course which inevitably is draining me dry and leaving me with very little space to form a clear perspective of my own thoughts that I then can offer to the network.

What you have described has been my experience too. But we need to remind ourselves that the 4th Way demands full participation in regular life. Experiences in regular life are used as tools for the Work on the self. If you feel that energy is being drained out from activities relating to the life in the matrix then you may want to observe yourself throughout the day with the goal of seeing how the energy is getting drained and move on to strategies that will help you conserve energy. We often do a lot of unnecessary activities, think unnecessary thoughts which deplete us of energy. Becoming aware of them helps in working towards conserving energy.

One can start with the basic question "what can I do differently in my regular activities that would help me devote time and energy for Work" and proceed from there.

My 2 cents

 

[stellar]

Hi Bud the excuse I've put forward in the past is that I have too many things going on in my life to be fully committed to "The Work" I run out of time, energy and in a sense head space seems to be a problem for me, I will also put others first so that my boundaries are eroded. But is that really the truth or I am deceiving myself yet again. I have felt that I have been trying to ride two horses at the same time, trying to keep the life in the matrix on some kind of course which inevitably is draining me dry and leaving me with very little space to form a clear perspective of my own thoughts that I then can offer to the network.

What you have described has been my experience too. But we need to remind ourselves that the 4th Way demands full participation in regular life. Experiences in regular life are used as tools for the Work on the self. If you feel that energy is being drained out from activities relating to the life in the matrix then you may want to observe yourself throughout the day with the goal of seeing how the energy is getting drained and move on to strategies that will help you conserve energy. We often do a lot of unnecessary activities, think unnecessary thoughts which deplete us of energy. Becoming aware of them helps in working towards conserving energy.

One can start with the basic question "what can I do differently in my regular activities that would help me devote time and energy for Work" and proceed from there.

My 2 cents

I've been fighting this same battle every day too. It's all too easy to put others' needs before my own, but I'm Working on it.

I try to remember if I've made the decision to 'do' for others because they've asked or because my programme/s tell me that I should. FWIW it has been helpful (to me) to keep the question in the back of my mind 'what is the benefit of my words/actions to others?' Sometimes by saying 'no' I can be of more help by encouraging someone to be less lazy/dependent/ignorant and by default conserving my own energy for more beneficial Work opportunities.

Having said that, it may sound like I'm judging the other but it comes from my perspective at that moment and also from caution that my energy is not unnecessarily depleated, as has happened many times. Just practice and more practice, I guess.

 

[Gertrudes]

Hi Bud the excuse I've put forward in the past is that I have too many things going on in my life to be fully committed to "The Work" I run out of time, energy and in a sense head space seems to be a problem for me, I will also put others first so that my boundaries are eroded. But is that really the truth or I am deceiving myself yet again. I have felt that I have been trying to ride two horses at the same time, trying to keep the life in the matrix on some kind of course which inevitably is draining me dry and leaving me with very little space to form a clear perspective of my own thoughts that I then can offer to the network.

What you have described has been my experience too. But we need to remind ourselves that the 4th Way demands full participation in regular life. Experiences in regular life are used as tools for the Work on the self. If you feel that energy is being drained out from activities relating to the life in the matrix then you may want to observe yourself throughout the day with the goal of seeing how the energy is getting drained and move on to strategies that will help you conserve energy. We often do a lot of unnecessary activities, think unnecessary thoughts which deplete us of energy. Becoming aware of them helps in working towards conserving energy.

One can start with the basic question "what can I do differently in my regular activities that would help me devote time and energy for Work" and proceed from there.

My 2 cents

I think what obyvatel said that I've emphasised is very relevant.
Adding to that, often the thought of doing something (for example the work), particularly when our perception is that we are already struggling to keep our head above water, is tiring. It can actually be more tiring and draining than the act of doing itself.

Beginning to do the work will sort of change your internal thinking patterns, and just the thought of that change might seem overwhelming, as in, I don't have the time to even think of it! This is something I am also familiar with.
Perhaps starting with the smallest step, something within your reach such as what was suggested in the above quote, and grow from there?

What I do think is, that within the fellowship and forum we are all learning and at the appropriate level for where we are and who we are, but I personally felt I had years to catch up on, and not much time to do it (I was impatient with my learning).

Could it be that this same impatience, the feeling you had of having to catch up so much, was also part of the root excuse to commit to the work?

 

[Liberty]

Thank you Obyvatel, Stellar and Gertrudes for your thoughts, I am going to be away enjoying some sea air for a couple of days, taking with me lots of reading material. I will respond to your posts on my return.

 

[Liberty]

from Obyvatel What you have described has been my experience too. But we need to remind ourselves that the 4th Way demands full participation in regular life. Experiences in regular life are used as tools for the Work on the self. If you feel that energy is being drained out from activities relating to the life in the matrix then you may want to observe yourself throughout the day with the goal of seeing how the energy is getting drained and move on to strategies that will help you conserve energy. We often do a lot of unnecessary activities, think unnecessary thoughts which deplete us of energy. Becoming aware of them helps in working towards conserving energy.

One can start with the basic question "what can I do differently in my regular activities that would help me devote time and energy for Work" and proceed from there.

My 2 cents

As with any thread you only have the information that a person decides to post and the major reason for my energy being drained, is from spending far too many years in a relationship. Even though I split up from my ex husband many years ago, my financial situation and some form of a relationship has been maintained. This process to resolve my financial situation has taken more then 3 years. I'm in two minds whether I should have just walked away with nothing as this has seriously damaged my life but I did not see that I had a choice at the time, it was be walked over, or stand up to him. I probably was far too naive at the beginning of this ordeal to realise that this man, I had chosen to marry and have two lovely children with is a psychopath.

It's also admitting to myself that I had chosen to be involved with this man and given away my free will a long time ago.

Throughout this time, it is obvious now that he has still been feeding off me. Thank God he is currently out of the country and I'm able to regain my strength and see that I have to remove myself from being in his location.
The final draft papers for the court are currently with his solicitor, so I know that after 25 years of being involved with this man I will be able to breath again and make my own decisions. I have planned for some time to sell the house that I have lived in for the past 16 years and free up my options. The one area I still feel drained by is deciding what's best for my girls. I have two teenage daughter's, one will be going to University next year and so will make her own decisions and then their is my youngest daughter who is 13 and has some special learning problems so moving schools causes me some trepidation. She also might decide to live with her father which causes me to feel torn. From an outsiders point of view my ex does not openly appear as a psychopath as they have a way of blending in and disguising their true identity in sheep's clothing - were as I do not go along with the crazy societal views from vaccinations to diet to world politics and the corrupt business world we are all unfortunately involved in, in some way. I research climate change and conspiracy theories and have suggested that he also looks at the data(I have not rammed this down his throat but have tried to have some open discussion with him so that it doesn't all come as a total shock to him.) which I'm sure he will use against me.

Knowing that I still have some way to go until this act is finally played out does deplete me, but actually writing about this at last instead of it just being in my head rambling around in difficult and different scenarios is exhausting, thinking in straight lines and possibilities of how life pans out is a debilitating place as I inch my way forward into atrophy - as opposed to actually getting on with the problem, which will be far easier. I have proved to myself in recent months that I am far stronger then I ever thought and voicing my concerns here has solidified and given me a clearer picture.

Thanks Gertrudes, for your thoughts, I have felt a shift in just recent days as to my thoughts and actions, and have been far more open and direct with people so I hope I haven't upset too many folks around me. I don't believe it, the lurking predator has just jumped in again saying that my views and opinions are not valid and I need to be nice to everyone around me or actually not to think at all. Anyway I will continue to make small steps and I definitely believe that the 4th way has to be learnt in the matrix as opposed to thinking you can run away and hide from the madness of this reality. We all have lessons to learn and to progress in our understanding involves a strong will and a dedication to increase our knowledge.

I think what obyvatel said that I've emphasised is very relevant.
Adding to that, often the thought of doing something (for example the work), particularly when our perception is that we are already struggling to keep our head above water, is tiring. It can actually be more tiring and draining than the act of doing itself.

Beginning to do the work will sort of change your internal thinking patterns, and just the thought of that change might seem overwhelming, as in, I don't have the time to even think of it! This is something I am also familiar with.
Perhaps starting with the smallest step, something within your reach such as what was suggested in the above quote, and grow from there?

And thank you Stellar for your thoughts, saying no is an important lesson for me to learn. Built up resentment and anger are a far more insidious problem to deal with ultimately.

One more lesson I need to learn is how to post everyones quotes, I'm sure it's quite straight forward just haven't quite mastered it :)

 

[Jacques]

One more lesson I need to learn is how to post everyones quotes, I'm sure it's quite straight forward just haven't quite mastered it :)

Have a look at that thread :

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=5643.0

 

[Laura]

As with any thread you only have the information that a person decides to post {...} I probably was far too naive at the beginning of this ordeal to realise that this man, I had chosen to marry and have two lovely children with is a psychopath.

Can you expand on this? As you say, the only information we have is what you have decided to post. It's rather strong to state that another person is a psychopath so perhaps you could give some objective examples of behaviors that brought you to this conclusion?

 

[NewOrleans]

Thank you very much for the insightful comments on this thread. I think it's exactly what I, personally, needed to hear at this time.

 

[Liberty]

Can you expand on this? As you say, the only information we have is what you have decided to post. It's rather strong to state that another person is a psychopath so perhaps you could give some objective examples of behaviors that brought you to this conclusion?

The reason why I referred to N as a psychopath is on Robert D Hare's Psychopathy checklist - PCL-R, factor 1 Aggressive Narcissism, he has a strong tendency in all these traits.
1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

On the PCL-R checklist factor 2 Socially deviant lifestyle, I would say he shows none of these traits.
As to the scale and whether I should have referred to N as a psychopath, malignant narcissist or narcissist is debatable.

From my own personal experience one instance comes to mind which was on our wedding day, I arrived at the church to find N still outside having photos taken and to be told that he was upset with me as I should have arrived later, I laughed this off thinking he was joking but it was said in all seriousness, as now he would no longer be centre stage. The wedding service was going well until the priest got to the bit were you and the priest state your full name N had a list of 4 longwinded names none of which the priest had written down so his complete focus was on trying to remember them, when it came to my turn he had lost the plot and called me Nicky, with the whole church groaning. This was not N fault but was a big sign as to the way our relationship was headed. The speech's were horrendous and referred to his promiscuous sex life before I met him, his relationship with drugs and how long it had taken N to actually marry me, all said in front of my family, I have never been able to watch the Wedding video, or speak to the so called "Best man".

When our first child was born, N was on a wave of euphoria for roughly a year, but it was around this time that signs of his own unease of his childhood reared up and he tried unsuccessfully to broach his feelings with his parents concerning the coldness and lack of love that was shown to him as a very small boy. He was locked in his room for hours and told to be quiet as his mother now had had an other baby that was sickly and demanded her full attention. He was never held, kissed or told that he was loved by either of his parents. N could now, see that his parents approach was not the way that either of us behaved towards our child. His parents denied N's childhood memories and have maintained that it was his fault and that he was difficult to love and still do.

I have many years of varying situation. I found out that N was having an affair 6 weeks after the birth of our second child, by finding a post-it note with a shopping list on it. He never did any food shopping as he would say he was too busy with his demanding job and time consuming range of hobbies, even when I could no longer drive the car in my final stages of pregnancy so It was a bit of a surprise when he admitted to shopping for a friend at work, who had broken her arm. His lies continued for a while with where he was ?, what he was doing? and his mobile phone ringing repeatedly. I asked him directly to tell me the truth eventually, and he told me the addiction he had to an other woman. He behaved like a drug addict shaking and becoming aggressive if he didn't see her. He would repeatedly tell me he loved me and that he was giving her up. He has shown no lack of remorse and even suggested at one point that he would like to have a polygamist relationship with the two of us.

He has repeatedly hidden money through out our divorce settlement and has paid no child maintenance for the past 10 months due to not agreeing with the pension report and solicitors advise and continues to challenge me to get a real job. He has worked in the corporate world for many years and has earned ridiculous amounts of money. I have recently lent him the book Snakes in Suits by Paul Babiak, so it will be interesting to hear his thoughts, if there are any.

So is he a psychopath or a narcissist or just a man going through a midlife crisis.

 

[Laura]

So is he a psychopath or a narcissist or just a man going through a midlife crisis.

Possibly none of the above. You described his childhood yourself; what does that tell you?

As we often point out, it really doesn't matter what the final "diagnosis" might be, whether the person is just severely wounded or a narcissist, a psychopath, chemically imbalanced or some other problem, what matters is that their behavior has a negative effect on another person or persons and that means the relationship is toxic and should end.

You have described some obviously unpleasant experiences with this man, beginning with the wedding (or sooner, though you didn't talk about any of that). Such experiences can make a person very bitter, especially when they accompany hardships. But since you DO know some of his history (and I'm assuming he is the one who shared that with you), and that history suggests someone who is very damaged, perhaps it's not helpful to call him a psychopath. After all, if he is one - truly - that means your daughters may have received those genetics. You mentioned that one of your daughters has learning difficulties. Maybe your ex did also and the way he is now is a result of his environment in concert with similar difficulties?

What is important is to gather knowledge about the topic, and about the self, so as to better assess each and every situation we have ever been in until we discover how we, ourselves, participated in what happened to us. Whether it is from ignorance or our own damage. Blaming others for our situations is all too common, the first step to healing is to take responsibility.