To spay or not to spay?

[Z...]

A lot of vets still recommend blanket neutering/spaying of very young dogs and cats. Sometimes even at few months of age.
Today we know this is a very bad idea and in this video dr. Becker explains why.

In short sexual hormones play very important role in growth and proper development of the body and sterilizing prepubescent animals is usually recipe for disaster.

https://youtu.be/enPCZA1WFKY
However due to unique canine reproductive physiology and histology it may not be such a good idea to leave bitches that will not be used for breeding intact. It is much safer to neuter them after they have completed development which is usually at 2 years of age in larger breeds or after the 2nd cycle - more or less.

On this page - _http://rufflyspeaking.net/breeding-frequency-and-bitch-age/

there is a nice essay which explains why should female dogs be neutered if they are not going to be allowed to have puppies.


When it comes to males, I personally do not recommend neutering at all. It seems testosterone keeps the body more agile and resilient and there is no medical reason to neuter male dogs. People often resort to castration in the attempt to resolve behavioral problems but one survey has showed that dogs can become even more aggressive after testosterone is removed as this hormone also gives confidence.

When it comes to cats, especially the ones that live indoors neutering is necessity. Cats who dont have access to mating will be extremely unhappy due to very strong mating urges and instincts. Preferably the owners should wait until they reach at least 1.5 year of age but this may not be so easy as males very often start with urine spraying as soon as they hit puberty which may be as early as 4-5 months of age.

 

[Miss.K]

I have been wanting to find out more about this, as I have a female cat of 8 or 9 months. And I remember reading some article about a woman who had her uterus removed, and she felt empty and as something was missing after, and so I have been thinking about if it was the same for cats (as I think they often remove the whole thing to prevent infections) and had wanted to find more information on the subject, so thank you for posting this :)

At the moment she is indoor cat, but I expect to be moving soon, to somewhere she'll be able to go outside.

So I was thinking of giving her birth control pills, until she's older, but am a little worried about how dangerous cat birth control pills are, as the human ones are bad enough, so perhaps the cat ones are really bad, and wonder if you have suggestions?

Also is it possible to sterilize her without removing hormone producing parts when she's older?

Thank you

 

[Forrestdeva]

Sorry that I can not recall all of the specifics as there are different sources out there to be considered, but I did run across an article that explained the increases in your female pet getting cancer if they were spayed prior to their 1st heat cycle. It may be worth looking into :/

 

[Laura]

Well, I don't necessarily agree. If you notice, historically it was well known that eunuchs grow bigger, usually are smarter, and live longer than guys who are intact. Same with dogs I think.

We let our girls have two litters, and then neutered the boys. I noticed NO difference in their energy levels, their activity, their personalities, at all. Sebastian gained weight and was pretty hefty but after going on raw meat, he lost it and was pretty fit almost to the end. He lived 12.5 years, 8 of those years after having an illness that was supposed to kill him, if not immediately, then within 2 years. The last couple of weeks were dodgy; he had up days and down days, and soon the down days outnumbered the up days. He was only really down for about two days and then he went pretty fast.

The one thing that DOES change with the boys is their urge to roam or to get crazy for a female. After our experience locking Elvis in the small fenced area during the girl's heat, when he literally tore the skin off his face trying to get out, I said "no more of that". It's terrible for a critter to be driven by something to the point that it will tear up its body.

 

[Miss.K]

Well, I don't necessarily agree. If you notice, historically it was well known that eunuchs grow bigger, usually are smarter, and live longer than guys who are intact. Same with dogs I think.

We let our girls have two litters, and then neutered the boys. I noticed NO difference in their energy levels, their activity, their personalities, at all. Sebastian gained weight and was pretty hefty but after going on raw meat, he lost it and was pretty fit almost to the end. He lived 12.5 years, 8 of those years after having an illness that was supposed to kill him, if not immediately, then within 2 years. The last couple of weeks were dodgy; he had up days and down days, and soon the down days outnumbered the up days. He was only really down for about two days and then he went pretty fast.

The one thing that DOES change with the boys is their urge to roam or to get crazy for a female. After our experience locking Elvis in the small fenced area during the girl's heat, when he literally tore the skin off his face trying to get out, I said "no more of that". It's terrible for a critter to be driven by something to the point that it will tear up its body.

My condolences for your loss of Sebastian.

Interesting that eunuchs get bigger, smarter, and live longer. I have thought at times that life would be easier without the hormonal drives, that makes one want to marry and have kids...
I agree that if the animal can't mate, it might be more frustrating for it to have the hormonal drive. Though my cat just had her first heat, and it wasn't that bad and only lasted 2 days (but maybe it gets worse when she's older)

But did you neuter the dogs when they were young, or were they more than 1,5 years old?

I don't know if it's different for different species of animals, but with horses there is a difference in behavior of stallions after having their testicles removed. They don't hold their head the same proud way, and don't lift their hoofs as high when running. They are easier to dominate, and it seems as a large part of the "spunk" has been removed. I don't know if it is so for eunuchs at the same time as the positive effects, as one doesn't necessarily cancel the other out (I guess the guys don't think the positive effects sound good enough to try it out, so we can study it )

The reason I worry about if cats feel like humans if having the uterus removed (apart from what the vet in the video warns about) is that it seems to me that animals differ from humans in their way of thinking, but not that much in their way of feeling...maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Z...]

I have been wanting to find out more about this, as I have a female cat of 8 or 9 months. And I remember reading some article about a woman who had her uterus removed, and she felt empty and as something was missing after, and so I have been thinking about if it was the same for cats (as I think they often remove the whole thing to prevent infections) and had wanted to find more information on the subject, so thank you for posting this :)

At the moment she is indoor cat, but I expect to be moving soon, to somewhere she'll be able to go outside.

So I was thinking of giving her birth control pills, until she's older, but am a little worried about how dangerous cat birth control pills are, as the human ones are bad enough, so perhaps the cat ones are really bad, and wonder if you have suggestions?

Also is it possible to sterilize her without removing hormone producing parts when she's older?

Thank you

Up until recently only hysterectomy ( removal of the uterus whilst leaving ovaries intact) was never practiced in pets. Main reason being that ovaries stimulate remains of the uterus causing infection - so called stump pyometra.
lately there is a lot of talk about it and it seems they are doing it in dogs only, haven't been able to find any information about cats.
You can find more info about the procedure here _http://www.ivcjournal.com/articles/the-pros-of-partial-spay/

I personally am not a big fan of hormonal estrus suppression in cats, many vets still do it but it can be associated with many complications, uterine infections, increased risk of cancer etc.

Lately there has been a product on the market called Suprelorin which is supposed to be much safer. Its an implant that slowly dissolves and is effective for about 6 months. After this time the animal resumes normal function of sexual organs and can be used for breeding. In dogs it can only be used in males and it can be a good tool to asses what effect will castration have on the physique, temperament and behavior of the dog. It can also come in handy for multi-dog households as a temporary solution while the bitch is on heat. But it needs to be used with careful plannning as the full effect kicks in only after 2-4 weeks so unwanted pregnancies can happen if homework is not properly done.
It is licensed for use only in male dogs and ferrets. Allegedly it can be used in female cats and remains effective for a year but I have never used it in cats. Apparently they did a lot of studies on wide variety of zoo animals and found it very effective, especially in elephants. Still I think its too early to declare it completely safe.
It is very expensive. One implant costs more then 100€. It contains Gonado Releasing Hormone agonist desorelin and it is supposed to suppress sexual function of the pituitary-gonadal axis.

Regarding the effect of castration it is my personal observation that neutered animals (more dogs then cats but not exclusively) become less interested in their surroundings and more lethargic then intact ones, they also seem to loose a lot of muscle mass and gain more fat tissue becoming less agile (which is disadvantage in sporting breeds). This happens even in animals fed proper raw diet. Very often neutered cats become more shy and withdrawn even if they had outgoing personality.
I also noticed that dogs neutered at very early age remain all their life in infantile phase and as a rule suffer from some form of obsessive compulsive behavior.

As it is, it looks like there is a lot of good arguments on both sides and I think individual approach is most important, i.e carefully weighing all pros and cons for each particular case.

 

[Miss.K]

Thank you Z, much appreciated :)

I have to take her to the vet tomorrow to get an x-ray of her leg, so they can see if they can fix it (she had broken her leg while a tiny street kitten and it has grown together wrong, and they have to see if they can fix it now that the bones are fully grown) so I will ask about Suprelorin. Though it might not be safe to call safe yet, I'm very reluctant to have anybody remove any parts of my cat, so I'm hoping for better options.

Why is it not possible to sterilize animals the same way as humans? (they clip something so egg or sperm don't go where it is supposed to, but without removing testicles ovaries and uterus) It just seems so brutal...

 

[Laura]

We neutered our males after they were mature, not as teen-agers.

 

[Z...]

Why is it not possible to sterilize animals the same way as humans? (they clip something so egg or sperm don't go where it is supposed to, but without removing testicles ovaries and uterus) It just seems so brutal...

It is, but the vets are not traditionally taught this technique, mostly because it is more time consuming and it was never really desired by the owners. Only in recent year owners are more conscious about these things.

A tubal ligation, whether in veterinary or human medicine, only affects the oviducts. These small structures are isolated during surgery and then cut and tied off with suture material. This prevents the ova from coming in contact with sperm cells or passing into the horns of the uterus. In a hysterectomy, the uterus is removed, but the ovaries remain. With either procedure, the hormones that are normally produced by the ovaries continue to be released to the rest of the body. This is fairly important in humans. However, in dogs it is a disadvantage.

Tubal ligations and hysterectomies, through owner demand or veterinary preference, have never been very popular in canine medicine. Some owners see hysterectomy or tubal ligation as a way to sterilize the pet, yet still allow her to experience heat cycles and participate in mating. Because the ovaries remain in the animal, the disadvantages of these procedures are similar to those seen in intact dogs (dogs that have not had surgical sterilization).

 

[Keit]

I personally am not a big fan of hormonal estrus suppression in cats, many vets still do it but it can be associated with many complications, uterine infections, increased risk of cancer etc.

Yes, as far as I know (including seeing several examples myself) all the " birth control pills" are very damaging for cats and usually lead to all kind of problems, including ovarian cysts that later necessitate surgical intervention.

Regarding the effect of castration it is my personal observation that neutered animals (more dogs then cats but not exclusively) become less interested in their surroundings and more lethargic then intact ones, they also seem to loose a lot of muscle mass and gain more fat tissue becoming less agile (which is disadvantage in sporting breeds). This happens even in animals fed proper raw diet. Very often neutered cats become more shy and withdrawn even if they had outgoing personality.

Interestingly enough, just recently had an opportunity to observe the behavior of newly castrated dog. It's a dog (a mix between Jack Russell Terrier and Bull Terrier) of one of my group-mates at the university. While he recovered (and a bit after) he lived at the therapy clinic. Considering his breed(s) he is a lively and active dog. Actually, my group-mate decided to castrate him after he ran away after a female dog in heat and got bitten by couple of larger dogs.

Well, after castration we joked a bit among themselves about the dog losing his "manhood", but then one incident proved that we were wrong. ;) He was with us during our night shift at the clinic, when boyfriend of another group-mate came to visit her. Only one small and essencially not threatening gesture of the boyfriend with his hand toward the girl was enough for the dog to change from cute-tail-waging-puppy to a super-protector full of furry. This dog was never properly trained to be a service dog, not to mention a protector, but there was a curious observation, that even castration didn't lessen his protective instinct.

I also noticed that dogs neutered at very early age remain all their life in infantile phase and as a rule suffer from some form of obsessive compulsive behavior.

Yes, I think the main issue here, that both cats and dogs shouldn't be neutered and spayed at the early age. It seriously damages the endocrine system and as a result messes with hormonal balance. Well, here for females they actually recommend to either give birth at least once, or neuter them to avoid chances of developing pyometra. But I am going to carefully read the link you mentioned, including looking for the video mentioned, because I want to understand how exactly the procedure is being performed in order to preserve the blood flow to the ovaries, and thus preserve the production of hormones. After all, even if they are being left intact, but ligated from both sides, with time they atrophy due to lack of blood suply. And even if they aren't being ligated, removing the uterus kind of damages the blood flow too.

 

[Z...]

We neutered our males after they were mature, not as teen-agers.

That's always the best option. And neutering was necessity in your case.

I tend to be more inclined to think that neutering females is more justified only because I regularly see cases of pyometra and very complicated phantom pregnancies in intact bitches ( more as a rule then exception past the age of 7) and these inevitably end up with hysterectomy after all.
The problem is - so called closed pyometra - where there is no discharge - and only vague symptoms like decreased appetite and increased thirst, where pus slowly fills uterus with closed cervix and eventually can cause uterus to burst which results in sepsis and quick death.
The article I linked in my initial post explains nicely the uniqueness of female dog reproductive organs and cycle.

But then on the other hand feeding inappropriate diet might play certain role in all this. Unfortunately there are practically no studies in this regard.

 

[Z...]

Interestingly enough, just recently had an opportunity to observe the behavior of newly castrated dog. It's a dog (a mix between Jack Russell Terrier and Bull Terrier) of one of my group-mates at the university. While he recovered (and a bit after) he lived at the therapy clinic. Considering his breed(s) he is a lively and active dog. Actually, my group-mate decided to castrate him after he ran away after a female dog in heat and got bitten by couple of larger dogs.

Just a note that it may take several weeks after castration for all the testosterone to disappear from the body.

I'd say its a gamble - there are no rules to which extent and in which way will personality be changed. But for some people who think they have a perfect dog ( sans unwanted sexual behavior) this gamble may be too risky. I am one of them so I might not be thinking clearly on this one.

 

[Miss.K]

Well, after castration we joked a bit among themselves about the dog losing his "manhood", but then one incident proved that we were wrong. ;) He was with us during our night shift at the clinic, when boyfriend of another group-mate came to visit her. Only one small and essencially not threatening gesture of the boyfriend with his hand toward the girl was enough for the dog to change from cute-tail-waging-puppy to a super-protector full of furry. This dog was never properly trained to be a service dog, not to mention a protector, but there was a curious observation, that even castration didn't lessen his protective instinct.

I was once stepmom for a castrated dog, and one time I was walking on the street with him, a sleazy guy followed me offering me money for sex, and the dog turned and growled at the sleazy guy with raised hair, so he surely still had protective instinct when it counted (he normally didn't act aggressively to strangers), but I didn't know him before he was castrated, so I can't say if there was a difference.

Why is it not possible to sterilize animals the same way as humans? (they clip something so egg or sperm don't go where it is supposed to, but without removing testicles ovaries and uterus) It just seems so brutal...

It is, but the vets are not traditionally taught this technique, mostly because it is more time consuming and it was never really desired by the owners. Only in recent year owners are more conscious about these things.

A tubal ligation, whether in veterinary or human medicine, only affects the oviducts. These small structures are isolated during surgery and then cut and tied off with suture material. This prevents the ova from coming in contact with sperm cells or passing into the horns of the uterus. In a hysterectomy, the uterus is removed, but the ovaries remain. With either procedure, the hormones that are normally produced by the ovaries continue to be released to the rest of the body. This is fairly important in humans. However, in dogs it is a disadvantage.

Tubal ligations and hysterectomies, through owner demand or veterinary preference, have never been very popular in canine medicine. Some owners see hysterectomy or tubal ligation as a way to sterilize the pet, yet still allow her to experience heat cycles and participate in mating. Because the ovaries remain in the animal, the disadvantages of these procedures are similar to those seen in intact dogs (dogs that have not had surgical sterilization).

Thank you Z.

Do you know if that procedure should still not be done when they are less than 1, 5 years? If it doesn't influence the hormone production, it could be that it would be ok I think?

Yes, I think the main issue here, that both cats and dogs shouldn't be neutered and spayed at the early age. It seriously damages the endocrine system and as a result messes with hormonal balance. Well, here for females they actually recommend to either give birth at least once, or neuter them to avoid chances of developing pyometra. But I am going to carefully read the link you mentioned, including looking for the video mentioned, because I want to understand how exactly the procedure is being performed in order to preserve the blood flow to the ovaries, and thus preserve the production of hormones. After all, even if they are being left intact, but ligated from both sides, with time they atrophy due to lack of blood suply. And even if they aren't being ligated, removing the uterus kind of damages the blood flow too.

I don't know if it's for dogs that it's recommended that they give birth once, or for cats as well. I mean I would love to have kittens, and though for the cat having kittens is hard work, I think that the mother hormones that makes one loooove ones offspring are a precious thing to experience for a cat, so I would like her to have the chance, but I can just see myself not wanting to give them away to strangers who might not feed them meat, and all kinds of terrible things I could imagine they might go through if not under my care, and so I would end up with a lot of cats (it seems it is lucky I never got kids, and that I would have been a terrible mother never wanting them to leave home and go into the horrible world all by them selves)

 

[Skyfarmr]

Tend to agree with you Z, and wonder if the effects might be more breed specific combined with owner behaviors?

We had a female Border Collie/Springer mix and she wasn't spayed right away. We had a large fenced in area for her and a neutered male. When she first went into heat she escaped by climbing over the 6 foot fence!
Litter number one arrived 2 months later. We secured the top of the fence, but next time she went into heat, she dug under the fence and escaped. Litter number two. Last time she got pregnant was when she sneaked off while my attention was on my young kids out in the yard. We knew who her beau was by now... a young chocolate lab named Rusty, and was able to retrieve her; she ended up having her third and final litter.

We nick-named her Houdini because she was a great escape artist. After having her spayed, she was much more content to stay close and not wander. Something to consider if you have a breed of dog bred to climb fences and are not interested in extreme containment measures. I've heard of more incredible escapes(as well as break-ins) than this by females in heat and intact males trying to find them.

All one needs to do is check the lost and found pet section of Craigslist or pet fining sites and notice there are many more lost pets than found ones; so containment of an intact pet should be appropriate for the breed, as far as dogs are concerned.

Our current dog is a hound/shephard mix who's almost 2 and was already spayed when we adopted him. He has more muscle than we can handle. While he hasn't taken off completely on us, he has gone crazy on a scent to the point where we just have to wait until he gets the tracking fever out of his system and returns, which fortunately he is getting much better at. He circles around us when we are out in the woods, never straying too far, and periodically "checking in" even when not called. So from our experience with this neutered male, he is very interested in his surroundings(woods, passing people/pets, squirrels, robins), loves to socialize with other dogs but he's limited to those his own size and/or those can match his rough play manner.

Maybe as he matures he'll lose interest in his surroundings, lose muscle mass, and develop compulsive behaviors as Z has observed in neutered males, but we're hoping if he is allowed to do the activities it was bred to do (track/hunt) then maybe not so much of those side effects of neutering would occur. We noticed our dog became very subdued and content after we began taking him to off leash dog training areas where he could run, track, sniff and even climb on fallen over trees for an hour or two. What a joy to watch! We observed less of the tail chasing, ripping things up (cardboard, paper, old t-shirts for tug play), and shoving toys at us to instigate play when we're able to get out to the woods regularly.

Another example: My boys' grandmother has a male neutered border collie that's very obsessive and I think it's because he isn't doing what he was bred to do... herd animals. Because of her age, she is unable to provide appropriate exercise for that breed of dog, and as a result I think her dog has developed some OC behavior and as a result, isn't very pleasant to be around.

Many shelters and adoption agencies are geared toward matching a dog's personality and activity level to an applicant's lifestyle now-a-days so hopefully this will result in fewer misplaced pets and unhealthy behavior.

 

[Z...]

Do you know if that procedure should still not be done when they are less than 1, 5 years? If it doesn't influence the hormone production, it could be that it would be ok I think?


I don't know if it's for dogs that it's recommended that they give birth once, or for cats as well. I mean I would love to have kittens, and though for the cat having kittens is hard work, I think that the mother hormones that makes one loooove ones offspring are a precious thing to experience for a cat, so I would like her to have the chance, but I can just see myself not wanting to give them away to strangers who might not feed them meat, and all kinds of terrible things I could imagine they might go through if not under my care, and so I would end up with a lot of cats (it seems it is lucky I never got kids, and that I would have been a terrible mother never wanting them to leave home and go into the horrible world all by them selves)

I tend to advise not to neuter cats before at least 1.5 years of age. But in practice this is very difficult. Some people manage to endure pesky behavior during heat some dont. Indeed having kittens is hard work and you should weigh all the options carefully.