Understanding Hinduism and Hindu Gods

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Recently I read Worlds in collision and I was impressed by his theory of astrology as the religious origins. He quoted Hindu gods extensively. I wondered whether this is correct ?. The more I recollect the pictures of the current day Hindu gods, traditions and rituals the more I am convinced how correct he is and ended up in awe. Often, events, myths, religious text, religious gurus, their techniques, their benevolent/malevolent deeds are intermixed to create current day new age fascination to india.

My intention is to collect my observations .

In short, current day Hindu religion is based on 3 Primary Gods , Brahma (creator), Vishnu( protector), Shiva (destroyer) often called trinity.
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What made me wondering is the strangeness of their physical characteristics of these Gods, their offspring, Incarnations, their out of context animal vehicles and strange weapons.

Shiva.

- ONLY Snake wearing on the neck
- ONLY god with Water flows out of the head
- ONLY Hindu god with third eye
- he puts the ash on his skin.
- Wears the tiger skin
- He is big in to dance(rudra) with dance and destroys the world with
- Cow is his vehicle
- His weapon is three pronged fork called Trishul.
- He is the ONLY primary god that has godly(not normal) offspring of 2 children
o Ganesh - elephant headed god with huge tummy and rides on little small mouse
o Kumara swamy – One with peacock as vehicle.

Do you see anything strange in this descriptions ?. I never questioned this strangeness , though I heard different interpretations of these characteristics as artistic representation with inner subtle meaning (changes from source to source).
Velikovsky proposes Shiva as planet Jupiter. Without going to the depth of the his references which is extensive, simple glance of the picture is sufficient to say how right he is.


With electrical Universe theory, suddenly all starts making sense of cosmic drama that happened. As we know Velikovsky theorized Venus came out of the Jupiter and C’s called that Venus is dragged in to solar system from cluster of comets and ancients have seen them coming from the direction of Jupiter and once can imagine the consequences.

Snake wearing – Some comet must have circled around the Jupiter at least temporarily at that time with their long black tails.
Third Eye – curiously, he is the ONLY hindu god that has 3rd eye- Is it the Great Red Spot ?. Of course I don’t when whether how long the red spot exist , but based on our current understanding , cosmic environment changes fast enough.
Tiger skin : bands of the Jupiter

Bull/Milk/Cow : velikovsky extensively wrote about this as a hydrocarbons from the tail of the Venus that precipitated and mutated and filled the land, flora and fauna with white substance. This is extensively interpreted as Bull, Cow , Milk and so on in every ancient culture in the world .
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Vishnu

- His sleeps under a multi headed snake on a infinite milk ocean
- His weapon is chakra , with a beach shell that is used to make sound.
- His vehicle is eagle ( Garuda )
- He is Blue in Color
- He has 4 arms
- The ONLY Hindu God with lot of incarnations with strange shapes and hero of those mythical battles
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Well, Velikovsky proposed Vishnu ( Venus ) born from Jupiter (siva)and it is captured into Solar System and rotated around solar systems disturbing the planets each fought with each other and discharging the electrical plasma discharges. which are shown as weapons like three pronged forks, wheels etc.

from worlds in collision

This description of the birth of the daughter from the mouth of the Creator is a Hindu parallel of Athene springing from the head of Zeus. Fragrance and nectar are mentioned in connection with the birth of the celestial cow, a combination that can be understood if we recall what we learned in the Sections ""Ambrosia"" and ""Birth of the Planet
Venus."""

IN EVERY COUNTRY of the ancient world we can trace cosmo-logical myths of the birth of the planet Venus. If we look for the god or goddess who represents the planet Venus, we must inquire which among the gods or goddesses did not exist from the beginning, but was born into the family. The mythologies of all peoples concern themselves with the birth only of Venus, not with that of Jupiter, Mars, or Saturn. Jupiter is described as heir to Saturn, but his birth is not a
mythological subject. Horus of the Egyptians and Vishnu, born of Shiva, of the Hindus, were such newborn deities. Horus battled in the sky with the monster-serpent Seth; so did Vishnu. In Greece the goddess who suddenly appeared in the sky was Pallas Athene. She sprang from the head of Zeus-Jupiter. In another legend she was the daughter of a monster, Pallas-Typhon, who attacked her and whom she battled and killed.

The slaying of the monster by a planet-god is the way in which the peoples perceived the convulsion of the pillar of smoke when the earth and the comet Venus disturbed each other in their orbits, and the head of the comet and its tail leaped against each other in violent electrical discharges."

weapon: wheel - plasma discharge
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Snake heads
from worlds in collision
"The Egyptian Venus-Isis, the Babylonian Venus-Ishtar, the Greek Venus-Athene were goddesses pictured with serpents, and sometimes represented as dragons. ""Ishtar, the fearful dragon,"" wrote Assur-banipal. The Morning Star of the Toltecs, Quetzal-cohuatl (Quetzal-coatl), also is represented as a great
dragon or serpent: ""cohuatl"" in Nahuatl is ""serpent,"" and the name means ""a feathered serpent.""10 The Morning Star of the Indians of the Chichimec tribe in Mexico is called ""Serpent cloud,"" n a remarkable name because of its relation to the pillar of cloud and the clouds that covered the globe after the contact of the earth with Venus."

Blue color
As comets move close to the Sun, they develop tails of dust and ionized gas. Comets have two main tails, a dust tail and a plasma tail. The dust tail appears whitish-yellow because it is made up of tiny particles — about the size of particles of smoke — that reflect sunlight. Dust tails are typically between 1 and 10 million kilometers (about 600,000 to 6 million miles) long. The plasma tail is often blue because it contains carbon monoxide ions. Solar ultraviolet light breaks down the gas molecules, causing them to glow. Plasma tails can stretch tens of millions of kilometers into space. Rarely, they are as long as 150 million kilometers (almost 100 million miles). A third tail of sodium has been observed on Comet Hale-Bopp.

Cow /milk/bull
from worlds in collision
"A passage of the Ramayana about the ""celestial cow"" says: ""Honey she gave, and roasted grain . . . and curled milk, and soup in lakes with sugared milk," which is the Hindu version of ""rivers of milk and honey."" The ""celestial cow"" or ""the heavenly Surabhi"" (""the fragrant"") was the daughter of the Creator:
she ""sprung from his mouth""; at the same time nectar and ""excellent perfume"" were spread, according to the Indian epic.

incarnations

1. Though there are some minor variations in what these 10 incarnations are , many are common. Out of these are strangest are the one on the left in above picture.
_Dashavatara - Wikipedia
Matsya, the fish, from the Satya Yuga. Lord Vishnu takes the form of a fish to save Manu from a flood, after which he takes his boat to the new world along with one of every species of plant and animal, gathered in a massive cyclone.

Kurma, the tortoise, appeared in the Satya Yuga. When the devas and asuras were churning the ocean in order to get the nectar of immortality, the mount Mandara they were using as the churning staff started to sink and Lord Vishnu took the form of a tortoise to bear the weight of the mountain.

Varaha, the boar, from the Satya Yuga. He appeared to defeat Hiranyaksha, a demon who had taken the Earth, or Prithvi, and carried it to the bottom of what is described as the cosmic ocean in the story. The battle between Varaha and Hiranyaksha is believed to have lasted for a thousand years, which the former finally won. Varaha carried the Earth out of the ocean between his tusks and restored it to its place in the universe.

Narasimha, the half-man/half-lion appeared in the Satya Yuga. The raksha Hiranyakashipu was granted a powerful boon from Brahma, not allowing him to be killed by man or animal, inside or out, day or night, or in earth or the stars, with a weapon either living or inanimate. Vishnu descended as an anthropomorphic incarnation, with the body of a man and head and claws of a lion. He then disembowels the raksha at the courtyard threshold of his house, at dusk, with his claws, while he lay on his thighs.

Vamana, the dwarf, appeared in the Treta Yuga. The fourth descendant of Hiranyakashyap, Bali, with devotion and penance was able to defeat Indra, the god of firmament. This humbled the other deities and extended his authority over the three worlds. The gods appealed to Vishnu for protection and he descended as the dwarf Vamana. During a yagna of the king, Vamana approached him in the midst of other Brahmins. Bali was happy to see the diminutive holy man, and promised whatever he asked. Vamana asked for three paces of land. Bali agreed, and the dwarf then changed his size to that of a giant. He stepped over heaven in his first stride, the netherworld with the second. Bali realized that Vamana was Vishnu incarnate. In deference, the king offered his head as the third place for Vamana to place his foot. The avatar did so and thus granted Bali immortality. Then in appreciation to Bali and his grandfather Prahlad, Vamana made him ruler of Pathala, the netherworld. Bali is believed to have ruled Kerala and Tulunadu. He is still worshiped there as the king of prosperity and recalled before the time of harvest. If these are the effects of comet venus rotations ( before it is settled ), based on the location, direction and impact to the viewer on the earth, all these stories had been telling the story..

This makes sense, if Venus has made multiple rounds in solar systems kicking each planet on its way from different directions with different effects. Vishnu's later incarnations are place holders that extend even to today.

Though Buddha opposed Hindu religion, some people added Budda as one of the Vishnu’s incarnations. Vishnu’s incarnations are place holder for whatever one wants to add including the future ( Or current)avatar called Kalki who will come on a horse with knife to fulfill the famous verse from Gita.

“yada yada hi dharmasya glanibhabati bharata abhyuthhanam dharmsya tadatamnan?”
_ YadA YadA hi Dharmasya... - || Satyameva Jayate ||
Whenever there is decline of Dharma (righteousness)..and rise of Adharma (unrighteousness); To protect the virtuous..to destroy the wicked and to re-establish Dharma, I manifest myself, through the ages.

ONLY other god or goddess that has incarnations exist is Kali. She had number of hands with various weapons and killing the demons and crushing them under feet and sits on Lion. Interestingly, wife’s of these hindu gods ( Vishun’s wife Lakshmi, shiva’s wife Parvathi, Brahma’s wife Saraswathi ) are more less play first lady type of roles. The only exception is Kali supposed to be incarnation of the Parvathi ( who is shiva’s wife ). Again Jupiter connection.

Suddenly, all this sounds like works of patriarchy that changed female goddess to male goddess.

Brahma

Except one festival celebrated in limited sections of india in his name and one or two rare temples, he doesn’t have much significance, though he is the creator, who runs to Vishnu for help for every little monster threat and his wife saraswathi is goddess of the education, still does not much importance except decorating the walls. He has
- Four heads
- Vehicle is swan
As per the legend, Vishnu created him and sent to earth to create veda’s and prepare his disciplines like Vysya ( who wrote Hindu myths Ramayan, Mahabharat and whole set of other derivatives ) to distribute. Interestingly he has very temples and disciples when compared with all other gods.
Well, Brahma sounds like more earthly than Cosmic, probably he don’t need special privileges.

Shiva’s off springs.

Ganesh : shiva's first son
- Elephant face
- Mouse as a vehicle despite having largest tummy in hindu gods.
8247932251_2548f17f5d_m.jpg


from worlds in collision
"During his visit in Egypt, he heard from the Egyptian priests or guides to the antiquities that the army of Sennacherib, while threatening the borders of Egypt, was destroyed in a single night. According to this story, an image of a deity holding in his palm the figure of a mouse was erected in an Egyptian temple to commemorate the miraculous event. In explanation of the symbolic figure, Herodotus was told that myriads of mice descended upon the Assyrian camp and gnawed away the cords of their bows and other weapons; deprived of their arms, the troops fled in panic. Josephus Flavius repeated the version of Herodotus, and added that there is another version by the Chaldeo-Hellenistic historian Berosus. Josephus wrote introductory words to a quotation of Bero-sus, but the quotation itself is missing in the present text of the Jewish Antiquities

Herodotus recounts that he saw the statue of the god with a mouse in the palm of his hand, which was erected in memory of the event.

Two cities in Egypt claimed the same sacred animal, the shrew-mouse: Panopolis (Akhmim) in the south and Letopolis in the north. Herodotus did not travel to the south of Egypt; thus, he must have seen the statue in Letopolis. Even today many bronze mice, sometimes inscribed with the prayers of pilgrims, are found in the ground of Letopolis.

Both cities with the cult of the sacred mouse were ""sacred cities of thunderbolt and meteorites.""
* The Egyptian name for Letopolis is indicated by the same hieroglyphic as ""thunderbolt.""" "The ma'nidos came, but the thread had so cut into the flesh of the Sun's neck that they could not sever it. When all but one had given up, the Sun called to the Mouse to try to cut the string. The Mouse came up and gnawed at the string, but it was difficult work, because the string was hot and deeply imbedded in the Sun's neck. After working at the string a good while, however, the
Mouse succeeded in cutting it, when the Sun breathed again and the darkness disappeared. If the Mouse had not succeeded, the Sun would have died."""


Kumara swamy
: Another Shiva's son
- His Vehicle is peacock.
8249001176_9ccf2e66ca_m.jpg

Why peacock ? – peacock feathers have blue at center again with green spreadings.?
From Worlds in Collission
"The planet-god Shiva, Kalidasa says, ""deposited his seed in fire"" and gave birth to Kumara who battled the great demon named Taraka that ""troubled the world."" The Babylonian astrologers ascribed to their planet-gods the ability"


If the cluster of comets entering solar system dragging massive comet like venus from the direction of Jupitor and if some comets stuck in the jupitor ‘s orbit atleast temporarily, one hitting the head , while he is discharging plasma ( trishul) , Other comets magnetic fields disturbing the Jupiter’s magnetic, it would have been a Cosmic dance.

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Viewing it would have been a extraordinary Trauma that locks up in subconscious ( collective amnesia). The unraveling of the subconscious trauma through meditation or equivalent techniques would have shown these gods for sure like in dreams.


Interestingly, Veda’s seems to have not given much importance to these above gods, Instead they preferred Wind, fire, sun etc.

_http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/fall97/chis-suc.htm.
Between 2000 B.C.E. and 1200 B.C.E. Aryan tribes from the region of Iran moved into the northern part of India. With these invading tribes came their deities. These Aryan gods became known in India as the Vedic Gods. These Vedic gods, like most ancient Aryan gods, are depicted in an anthropomorphic way. As stated by A. A. Macdonell in Vedic Mythology: "The true gods of Veda are glorified human beings, inspired with human motives passions, born like men, but are immortal"(pg. 2).
The Vedic gods also resemble other Aryan gods in their duties and actions. One example of this, is that Indra shares characteristics with Thor and other "hammer gods". As stated by Donald Mackenzie in Indian Myth and Legend: "Indra is the Indian Thor, the angry giant-killer, the god of war and conquest"(pg. xxxi).
These Vedic gods also resemble other Aryan gods in that they are overwhelming male, with female gods playing a minor role in the heavenly hierarchy. This was most likely because Aryan tribes practiced a patriarchal system instead of a matriarchal one. Thus with males being the dominant and more powerful figures in the society, and females having only a supporting role, so too did the gods.
The Vedic Gods are shown predominantly as being beneficent beings who bestow prosperity and good fortune upon their followers. When evil does befall, such as in the case of a draught and/or famine, it is not the work of the gods, but the work of demons. And when the gods defeat the demons, such as bringing on the rains, it only shows the beneficent of the gods even more.
They are also portrayed as moral entities, who punish the sinful and wicked while rewarding the pious and righteous. But more important than being seen as moral, is being seen as great and mightily. They are depicted as being able to do whatever they wish; having dominion over all creatures; not having their ordinances thwarted; and not having anything live beyond the time appointed by the gods (Macdonell, pg. 18).
The Vedic pantheon is considered to consist of thirty-three different gods, which are placed, in groups of eleven, into one of the three different categories: atmospheric, terrestrial, or celestial, each of which has its own area of responsibility. But just because a god is in one category does not mean that it is completely different from a god from another category; for sometimes a god from one category will have some of the same qualities of a god from another category.
To better explain this, a brief description of three different gods, each from a different category, follows. The gods being discussed, and their categories, are: 1) Indra, atmospheric; 2) Agni, terrestrial; and 3) Varuna, celestial.

I find these realizations interesting in view of recent readings. Remove the human shape and replace it to sphere, we get the truth.
 
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dutta

A Disturbance in the Force
The Hindu Trinity is actually not that different from the Chrstian Tinity:
Shiva is the Father.
Vishnu is the Son who incarnates as a human Savior periodically (the mistake Christians make is thnking that Jesus is the only one)
and
Brahma is the Holy Spirit.

For another detailed analysis of Hindu Gods see _www.thehindugods.com
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
dutta said:
The Hindu Trinity is actually not that different from the Chrstian Tinity:
Shiva is the Father.
Vishnu is the Son who incarnates as a human Savior periodically (the mistake Christians make is thnking that Jesus is the only one)
and
Brahma is the Holy Spirit.

For another detailed analysis of Hindu Gods see www.thehindugods.com

Welcome to the forum dutta. We encourage people to introduce hear Newbies Forum and Important Notices to All Forum Members You can see others posts for examples.

Coming back to religions, we have million explanations each has their proponents, opponents with out much objective explanation or proofs w.r.t to latest findings of our understanding of our reality. The website you mentioned is the standard explanation most of the hindu's indoctrinated ( including me) in to. Does it makes sense other than little more than Disney stories. I don't think so.
coming back to christianity, you may be interested to read these

Who wrote bible

Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?
 

Medulin

Jedi
Oh, there are so many gods in Hinduism. :)
They remind me of saints in Catholicism.
Thank God I've limited myself to Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. :-[
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Recent session brought me back to this thread/thought process of celestial objects as the origin of Hindu mythology. I tend to consider Veda's as Version 1.0 and current form based on Ramayan and Mahabharat as 2.0. There is a huge difference between 1.0 and 2.0 w.r.t thematics as i posted in previous posts.

My intent is to try to get some timelines, specific cosmic events to these religious texts taking what C's said as clue's, not conclusions.
(Sid) What was the real motivation behind the mythological Indian texts of Mahabharata and Ramayana?

A: Record events of great significance.
It's interesting that both Mahabharata and Ramayana are combined in to generic question and answer is also generic though they seems to hint it as cosmic phenomenon. Traditional view of Ramayana is from Treta Yuga and Mahabharata is Dwapara Yuga. Hindu cycle of Yuga's( time cycle) fall under 4 parts - Krita Yuga(age of Truth) , Treta Yuga ( three quarters virtue and one quarter sinfulness), Dvapara Yuga( two quarters virtue and two quarters sinfulness), Kali Yuga( one quarter virtue and three quarters sinfulness - current age).

How many years each Yuga varying widely given that most of the interpretations comes from 3rd way Guru's who are too numerous who depend on many things ( meditation practices ,old scriptures and others). That's an end less debate. Here is one wiki

For some time, there are news item that gave weightage of Dvapara Yuga concept for non believers based on archeological digs. As per Mahabharata, Krishna (Vishnu's incarnation in that age ) dies just before end of the world and the place ( Dvaraka in the state of Western Gujarat) he dies goes under the water.

Again, there are claims and counter claims of the dates and speculations when Dvaraka drowned in the water leaving aside embellishments each religion tend to contain. Some dates for this Dvaraka( Dwaraka) used were around 3600 BC , 1500 BC and so on. Here is a review video that goes into claims, counter claims, agenda's of claims/counter claimants and the need for more digging and testing and so on.
But the Vedic kingdoms that are in epic are Kuru (1200 BCE - 500 BCE according to wiki) and Panchala (1100 BCE- 500 BCE as per wiki)only ranged from 1500 BC to 800 BC. Another city that mentioned in the epic Indraprasta ( Modern Day New Delhi ) also have archeological evidence of painted grey ware (PGW) that dated back to 1100 BCE- 800 BCE.

To get some perspective of it, I used the History of India video and put it in a sheet to make sense of timelines. Naturally, timelines are slightly different from different main stream sources, but one thing is common all the vedic kingdoms started AFTER Indu's valley civilization ( 3300 BCE - 1300 BCE). According to C's, the city of Indus valley civilization existed until 1100 BCE - October 20, 1994
Q: Who built the city of Mohenjo-Daro?

A: Lizards directly. Coatzlmundi legend ties in to this directly look at illustrations on stones now.

Q: Who is Coatzlmundi?

A: Other deity of the Lizards worshipped by the Atlanteans and their descendants because of the direct contact with humans for 1000 years.

Q: Now, you said Mohenjo Daro was built by the Lizzies directly. Did they occupy this city themselves?

A: No.

Q: When was this city last inhabited continually?

A: 3065 years ago. { 1071 BC }

Q: When was it built?

A: 6092 years ago.
It's interesting C's say "ago" in some places and other places B.C ( ex: Baalbek was built on 3218 B.C in the same session). Leaving aside their "expanded present" comment( i don't have clear idea of what it means), I guess they have some interesting reasons based on what we will do after the sessions including recent 460 years addition discussion. Any way, all of these dates came after European colonization of the rest of the world 500 years ago.

So the Vedic Kingdom's can't be before 1071 BC. Also, there is some mystery to the Indus valley civilization though it is surmised that Vedic kingdom's came from Indu's valley civilization. While all other kingdom's of the time used lot of trade, cultural exchange, wars etc. with other neighboring kingdoms, these guys didn't do that much. From the ruin's archeologists couldn't figure out much of culture much other than advanced comfortable city building( planned cities, sewers etc. October, 22 1994
Q: (L) Who built the city of Angkor Wat?

A: That was built by the Lizard Beings themselves. Built approximately 3108 years ago. { 1114 BC}
This is interesting in the context of there have been carvings of Mahabharata and Ramayan on the walls of the mysterious and gigantic structures of Angkor Wat. It doesn't mean these drawing of epic's were etched at the same time. Given that 4D STS has means to go back in time and they can even etch it. We don't know.
Q: (L) Who built the city of Mohenjo Daro?

A: That also was built by the Lizard Beings directly.

Q: (L) Did they live in these cities?

A: No, as stated before, they did not live there, they visited or occupied on a temporary basis, but did not live there.

Q: (L) Who did they build the cities for?

A: They built the cities for themselves and their worshippers amongst humans.
In the Indus valley civilization video link, presenter mentions of tale where few traders from these regions went to Western regions and tight lipped about their civilization while trading. So we have assume some serious obedience stuff going on there.
1998 -08-22
Q: We watched this television show the other night which talked about the city of Angkor Wat and its orientation to Draco 10,500 BC. You said that Angkor Wat was built 3108 years ago by the Lizzies themselves, and that the city of Mohenjo Daro was also built by the Lizzies 3065 years ago, which is within 30 or 40 years of the same time period. Do you still confirm that the Lizzies themselves built these
cities?
A: Reptilian Beings.
Q: And they did this themselves?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened to the inhabitants of these cities?
A: Taken to another planet.
The secrecy makes sense if this area is a incubator lab for them. Will this explain why they won't allow any body near this region ( Modern day pakistan with neighboring Indian and Afghan borders)? It's like some areas in Himalaya's( where UFO's are found to be come out of mountains) are out of reach for Indians and Chinese who fight with each other in their border dispute.
From Recent session:
Q: (L) Okay. And the second part of the question:

(sid) Are there any factual events or just adaptations of Odyssey, etc?

A: Odyssey was part of the same phenomenon.
Honestly, I haven't heard the concept of Hindu mythology borrowed from Greeks. It may be related to region one is from. Ex: North Indian regions has some history of Indo-greek rulers, while south Indians has no background like that. Any way, India is so diverse ( w.r.t local history, language, culture, historical influences etc.) lot of interpretations are possible.

I looked for this concept on the net and found some threads on Quora. The most common consensus fall under familiar lines
  • None
  • some character similarities with major differences like
    • Hindu gods are passive, while Greek gods are very active in taking party lines etc. in either respective epics.
    • Mahabharata is a battle between cousins of 5 good guys vs 100 bad guys, every body else taking sides with each other etc.
  • Just another imperial hijacking narration( good is ours, bad is yours ) etc.
This is understandable given that, there are some religious angles during Independence movement to rally people against British, though Gandhi kept fundies from all religions at bay.
At a time when Indian nationalists were seeking an indigenous basis for social and political action against colonial rule, Bhagavad Gita provided them with a rationale for their activism and fight against injustice. Bal Gangadhar Tilak and Mahatma Gandhi used the text to help inspire the Indian independence movement. Mahatma Gandhi expressed his love for the Gita in these words:
I find a solace in the Bhagavadgītā that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavadgītā. I find a verse here and a verse there and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies – and my life has been full of external tragedies – and if they have left no visible, no indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavadgītā.
The only book I read on Greek Mythology is Odyssey. So, I picked up a book Illiad (based on reviews and so on) and started reading. In the introduction author mentions couple of interesting points, though he attributes the popularity to the Homer's literary genius.
Even when no one desires it, war still happens, whether by the will of the gods or the nature of man. If we were to take any random hundred-year period within the last five thousand years, it has been calculated, we would find on average ninety-four of that hundred to have been occupied with largescale conflicts in one or more regions of the globe 49. The result of at least three thousand years of storytelling, the Iliad is still with us because it has resonated powerfully with every passing age. Majestic similes that conjure the world of nature; magnetic characters defined by stirring and momentous speeches; and a broad and generous humanity that reveals a panorama of human life locked in heroic struggle beneath a mischievous or indifferent heaven—these are the hallmarks of Homeric poetry. Through such high artistry did this mysterious master poet transform an ancient tale of one obscure campaign into a sublime and sweeping evocation of the devastation of every war, of any time. 49. Paraphrased from Trevor Bryce, Life and Society in the Hittite World (Oxford, 2004), 98.

While listening to Illiad, the narrative style is similar to Mahabharat mainly naming people with their parents name, moral dilemna related to war, characters as sons of gods and so on though the background setting is very different. Probably it is related to Indo-Aryan style of narration. The descriptions of the Helen reminded me of Draupadi from Mahabharat and looked whether any body linked the two and found one thesis comparing both.

This reminded me Laura's research on Helen/Nefertiti/Sarah element (2003-02-02 session). If I put timeline to it based on Akhenaten persuing Helen/Sarah etc. it has to be around 1600 BC ( last 3600 comet cycle.) But, that is too far back to carry forward to Vedic period( 700 years) with some less known Indu's valley civilization in between. Interestingly, author of Illiad has some interesting comment on Helen.
Close study of the Iliad indicates that this epic-making process is in fact even older than the Bronze Age, and indeed draws on sources from outside the Greek world. For example, the name of Helen of Troy can be traced to the Indo-European *Sweléna¯, associated with burning and sun glare. Helen’s prototype was a Daughter of the Sun, the abduction of the Sun-maiden being a recurrent motif in old Indo-European myth.27 The comradeship of Achilles and Patroclus has long invited comparison with that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the Near Eastern epic of Gilgamesh, variants of which can be dated as far back as the third millennium B.C. Nearly half of the Iliad’s 15,693 lines are in direct speech, meaning that to some degree the epic is as much a drama as it is a narrative. The prototypes for this kind of dramatic presentation are also found in the Near East, in tales, myths, and poems in Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, Ugaritic, and Hittite.28

27. Helen’s origins are paraphrased from M. L. West, Indo-European Poetry and Myth (Oxford, 2007),229ff.
28. The percentage of direct speech is given in Jasper Griffin, “Homeric Words and Speakers,” Journal of Hellenic Studies 106 (1986):36–57. Dramatic versus narrative and the dramatic character of Near Eastern literature closely follows G. S. Kirk, The Iliad: A Commentary, Vol. II, books 5–8(Cambridge, 1990), 28ff.
Are there any other cosmic activity which is nearer to Vedic period of 1000 BC that has cometary battle with LOT's of pieces of asteroids that battling as to camps with each other that necessitated observers to document it and this is repeating too often to create multiple epics.

This post is already long, so will write the remaining in the next post.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Are there any other cosmic activity which is nearer to Vedic period of 1000 BC that has cometary battle with LOT's of pieces of asteroids that battling as to camps with each other that necessitated observers to document it and this is repeating too often to create multiple epics.

This post is already long, so will write the remaining in the next post.
This thought process reminded me of Eric Cline's 1177 B.C book at the end of Bronze age empire collapses. But the author attributes it to the supply chain disruptions to bronze making with the raw material(tin i think) from Afghanistan and sea people migration etc. Though title says 1177 BC, author clearly mentions it as approximate date, 100 years this or that side. While looking for what cosmic event happened during that time, I came across this post on Victor clube's gaint comet theory 1984 paper and his approximate timelines of disintegration.

View attachment 54061

Approximate 1000+/- 300 BC event fits well into the search criteria. If this event happened nearer to earth, these disintegration of the comet ( assume 2 large pieces with their disintegrating small pieces with electrical discharges ) would be a terrifying experience for observers ( not specific to one country/location/region, at all places) , making rulers to come up with consistent narration that legitimizes their rule/priesthood.

According to Victor Clube, there is a gaint comet entered solar system > 20,000 years ago, had first disintegration 3000 B.C and second disintegration around 1000 BC (+/- 300 ). He has extensive set of mathematics to prove his theory.

This can explain certain observations.
  • How North Indian Vedic kingdom's Hinduism got immediate acceptance in South India when the Post Vedic period expansion ( after 500 BC) culminating in Mauryan empire ruling the almost all the current day India (+Pakistan+Afghanistan) by 250 B.C( leaving aside deep south early pandya's who still have good relations with Mauryan's). By 600 B.C , Hinduism has competition from Buddhism and Jainism. Irrespective of location every body has seen what happened in the sky, passed it on to next generation for these and any ruler who can explain it has a certain advantage. Though the Ashoka, the great emperor of Maurya dynasty converted to Buddhism and promoted it, After his dynasty, Buddhism was erased from India.
  • Mahabharata is some what different in the sense it is more earthly battle under nominal guidance of Krishna unlike Purana's where Vishnu has overpowering influence. Also, discussion on the moral dilemna's ( similar to Illiad) that gives more acceptance.
  • In Illiad, Helen is seduced and taken away , In Mahabharata, Draupadi was attempted to strip her sarry, before Krishna makes that saree so long that the attempt fails. One has to wonder where did that script came from? Is it observation of sky from different vantage point?
It's costly to get Victor Clube's Cosmic serpent, but I borrowed from archive.org and was reading. His theory of some comets get stuck( slowly disintegrating) in the Apollo asteroid steam that revolves between sun and Jupitor's under their massive gravity, constantly fed by external comets/asteroids like 3600 year cycle steam from oort cloud is fascinating and terrifying. It is like a neighborhood police station that can bombard at any time whenever human's deviate too much into vices. From Victor Clube/Bill Napier's 1984 paper
4 The contemporary stream
That Apollo asteroids as well as decaying comets feed meteor streams (Drummond 1982; Babadzhanov & Obrubov 1983) has been confirmed by the discovery of 1983 TB in the Geminid meteor stream (Fox, Williams & Hughes 1984). The latter is one of the strongest streams but several investigators (Whipple 1940; Stohl 1983) have emphasized the extent to which the currently less intense but broad Taurid-Arietid meteor stream and its daytime counterpart, the ß Taurid - J Perseid stream, generally dominate the inner Solar System at present. The Taurid-Arietid complex divides into northern and southern branches of equal intensity with the/? Taurid core being identified, probably, with the southern stream. The current appearances are in fact deceptive, since the fireball flux associated with the complex was evidently very much greater —1000 yr bp (Astapovic & Terenteva 1968) - indeed, the northern stream was then stronger, indicating an irregular fragmentation history. The material is believed to derive from the break-up of the Gomet Encke progenitor (Whipple 1940; Whipple & Hamid 1952) and apparently includes at least one undetected body comoving with the Southern Taurids and thus the ß Taurid core (June 24-July 6). These meteor streams are simply the denser parts of the remarkably broad stream through which the Earth passes in April-June and October-December (Stohl 1983) and to which about half the ‘sporadic’ meteors may belong. Also encompassed by this complex is, apparently, an appreciable fraction of the Apollo asteroid population (—10 per cent, implying a population of —100 bodies ^1 km: see Table 2). The common alignment of their longitudes of perihelia which move characteristically a few degress per millenium implies that the system may have been generated by fragmentations over the last few 103-104yr. Galibina & Kestel (1982), from numerical integration of the orbits of Hephaistos (—10 km) and Encke’s comet, consider that a separation of these two bodies probably occurred in the remote past, a suggestion also made by CN (1982c). However, there is a large difference in cb between the bodies, and on the basis of our numerical integrations (Clube, Napier & Asher, in preparation)
we now consider it to be just as likely that Hephaistos is a surviving remnant of one of the preceding giant Apollo-comets. Whipple & Hamid (1952) similarly inferred at least two significant past fragmentations (~2700bc, ~500ad) to account for the observed structure of the Taurid stream but if, as now appears likely, the undetected body is the principal descendant, one or two considerable fragmentations also probably occurred ~1000±300bc.
This leads me to Ramayan which is considered much older than Mahabharat. C's mentioned Rama as a "High priest" , not as king of Ayodhya in north India as Ramayan depicts.
Q: Who was the Queen of Sheba?

A: Fictional.
...
Q: Who was Arjuna?

A: Same as Sheba.

Q: Who is Shiva?

A: Same.

Q: Rama?

A: Indian. High priest influenced by Confederation.
Arjuna (one of the main character in Mahabharat) is fictional, but the main character in Ramayan (Rama) is real, but both are to record events of great significance.
Ramayan has its own weird characters, plot line.
  • Hanuman the flying monkey god who helped to locate Sita who was abducted by Ravana and taken to the land he ruled (Sri Lanka). Hanuman goes to Sri lanka , locates her and burns part of palace as a symbol.
  • It's monkey's who build bridge between India and Sri Lanka by throwing stones on the water. There is a never ending debate about this 30 miles long bridge ( called Adam's bridge/Rama's bridge) and whether it has any thing to do with religion or not.
    • Who built it, if it is not natural?
    • If natural, when is it drowned? . If it drowned 10,000 years ago when sea levels raised 500 ft, that is too far back for the Ramayan story.
    • does the density of water is such that, stones used to float at the time of Ramayan as some claimed?
  • Ravana normally has 1 head, but it can become 10 heads when he wants.
Whether Ramayan related to this apollo asteroid stream victor Clube/Bill Napier mentioned or not, I am not sure. It made me wonder whether Ramayan is related to 3000 BC disintegration of the gaint coment - with tailed integrating pieces (monkeys), falling in water and another peice becoming 10 more pieces(Ravana's head). Well, there is no way to know as all of these are so old, but it is interesting.

As a whole "Phenomenon" seems to have traumatic event , layers of overlapped stories at some point solidified into some coherent story with added historical kingdoms.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Whether Ramayan related to this apollo asteroid stream victor Clube/Bill Napier mentioned or not, I am not sure. It made me wonder whether Ramayan is related to 3000 BC disintegration of the gaint coment - with tailed integrating pieces (monkeys), falling in water and another peice becoming 10 more pieces(Ravana's head). Well, there is no way to know as all of these are so old, but it is interesting.
This topic was in my mind for a while and looked for some answers. I tried to look for more data to come nearer to the possible cosmic event that inspired the Ramayan story. While searching for it , reading all sorts of articles, books, controversies related to historicity took me in different directions with getting clarity on some questions, but with no clear answer to originating event.

Regarding the composed date of Ramayan there is some sort of consensus that is it is written 750 to 500 BC, despite some parts may be added later ( based on historical kingdom's at that time). There is a consensus that it is based on very old story.
THE HISTORICITY OF THE RAMAYANA

We have thus narrowed down the probable date of the composition of the Valmiki Ramayana, sometime between 750 and 500 B.c. What now can be said of the historicity of the characters and events that the epic purports to represent? The author or authors of the
central portions of the poem-including the older parts of the Balakanda appear to have been familiar with the Kosala-Magadha
region at the time of the sixteen janapadas and well before the period from which we can recover our first verifiable historical data.

Since their geographical and geopolitical data are in keeping with such knowledge of the place and time as we have, there can be no
doubt that, at least in the first two books of the epic, the poets are dealing with real places and kingdoms. If we make some allowance for epic hyperbole in the elaborate description of the city of Ayodhya and in the accounts of the wealth of the various kings that people the text, we have no difficulty in reading the setting of the first part of the poem as a credible, if idealized, rendering of a fortified township in the heavily forested plains of the Ganges-Sarayu watershed
But what is the originating event which C's were suggesting? Do they mean same originating event as that of Mahabharata? but Ramayan considered belonged to previous yuga of Mahabharat. It looked 3000 BC seems to be too old to survive. Again C's said Rama was local tribal high priest influenced by Confederation. It is written in Sanskrit, the language of Aryan's who moved in at that time. Even Buddhists and other competitors also have their Ramayan at that time in different languages. Did the New Aryan Janapada's (Small clan based semi-nomadic sanskrit speaking pastoralists called themselves Aryans)took the local story and made a epic of it?

Based on what I read there are lot of dates.
  • Victor clubes (3000 BC +/- 300 ) date disintegration,
  • Venus iterations pierre wrote in his article, 3240, 3060, 2960, 2860, 2800, 2720, 2660 BC - I think these are part of Vishnu Purana story( one of 18 mahaPurana's written in 2nd century AD. Purana means "old" - even in today's Hindi language)

C's comment on Venus dislodging Mars and earth in its last pass, probably it even disturbed some asteroid objects too ( that is mentioned in exodus)​
Q: (L) You said the Exodus occurred in 2676 B.C., is that correct?​
A: Close.​
Q: (L) Was that the last passage of the cometary Venus?​
A: Yes.​
Q: (L) Was this activity of Venus interactive with the close passing of the cluster of comets you have mentioned?​
A: Close. One of three cataclysms close together.​
Q: (L) If Venus was one of the cataclysms and the cluster of comets was another, what was the third?​
A: Mars.​
Q: (L) Was Mars knocked out of it's orbit by Venus?​
A: Yes.​
  • 1600 BC last comet cluster visit
  • Victor clubes (1000 BC +/- 300 ) further disintegration event.
Which one to pick? It's quite possible many events contributed it. I was reminded of QFG's historical database (Thanks to Altair) and some entries picked my curiosity (w.r.t relevance to the topic) and read the books mentioned in the entry ( The 2300 BC event 3 volumes by M.M. Maldelkehr).
There may also have been a land subsidence around 2300 BC in south India. The higher sea level relative to the land areas as a result of the subsidence would then have resulted in the perceived separation of Sri Lanka (Ceylon) from the mainland. The evidence for the subsidence in this case is both ancient traditions and geological evidence. According to the Singhalese tradition in Sri Lanka, 1844 years before the Buddhist era, a major geological event is said to have occurred which severed Sri Lanka from the Indian Mainland. 1Assuming the Buddhist era started at his death at 483 BC, the event would be dated at 2327 BC. The regional subsidence is supported by independent Indian Brahmanical records that state that numerous islands in the Indian Ocean were overwhelmed by the sea in 2387 BC.2 […]

The region around southern India and Sri Lanka is seismically active. The general conclusion from radiocarbon dating of offshore coral reefs and shell deposits on Sri Lanka is that a number of oscillations occurred around the time period of interest, with uplifts possibly occurring 500 to 1000 years both before and after 2300 BC, thus supporting a subsidence between those two times.
Rise in sea level around southern India with a maximum around 2000 BC

”…Arriving at last at the extremity of their island, they beheld a smooth and narrow arm of the sea, and beyond it a vast and apparently boundless country, connected with their island by a nrrow and rocky pathway, arising from the bosom of the waters.” After they crossed the rocky pathway, “no sooner did they touch the shore, than trees, flowers, fruit, birds, all that they had seen from the opposite side, vanished amidst a terrible clamor… the rocks by which they had crossed sank beneath the waves, a few sharp peaks alone remaining above the surface to indicate the place of the bridge, which had been destroyed by divine displeasure.”

This story is valuable for the links it brings together. First, the land separation is associated with the closing of the Indian Paradise, possibly reflecting the poorer climatic conditions starting at that time. Second, the literature states that the couple was driven out of Paradise by Ravana, the Prince of the Rakshasos. The Rakshasos are shown to represent falling meteoroids
The word Rakshasa has current day meaning of demon. some historians theorized that the word is used rather freely changed over time ( for black skinned people, outsiders of city, tribal people and so on). There are many suggested meanings like the word "Barbarian" in the west.

Author M.M Mandelkar is a retired electrical engineer compiled ton of data points from many sources to prove that some thing seriously happened to at that time to contribute the demise of empires all over the place ( like in 1176 BC event book) and has a theory what might have happened and how it is represented in the religious texts of that time. From the point of what we know from C's and Laura and others works, he may not be all correct, but he did have few data points that made me think 2300 BC may the event that inspired Ramayan story.

His Hypothesis for the reason of collapse of all empires at 2300 BC is ( page 285 - volume1)
An exceptionally important piece of information is that astronomical measurements indicate that a major ejection of Taurids from comet Encke occurred about 2700 BC - only four hindered years before the postulated event. The date is established by Whipple and Hamid 1952 through optimal measurements of 4 large Taurid meteoroids retrojecting their orbital positions back in time to common origin with comet Encke. As I mentioned earlier, meteoroid ejection expected to occur at perihelion, which is the closest approach of the comet to the sun. The Taurid event, however, appears to be an exception to the rule in that the ejection point was very far from Perihelion. Indeed, the ejection point appears to be close to the aphelion where the comet was travelling through asteroid belt. The belief of the investigators is the ejection is caused by some interaction of comets with asteroids[8]. the findings of Whipple and Hamid have been corroborated more recently by Kulikova[9], who further found that the separation of the Taurid meteoroids was about 350 meters/second far faster than normal ejection velocities during the cometary vaporization at perihelion, supporting the idea of possible collision in the asteroid belt.

But why was there a 400 year time interval between Taurid meteoroid ejection at 2700 BC and the encounter with the earth 2300 BC? The answer to that is fairly straight forward. First it is possible that meteoroid orbit may not have initially crossed the earth's orbit, but may have gradually shifted and expanded the cross-section with time before reaching the right condition for intersection. second, and probably more important, the Taurids initially must have been a small cluster of objects, gradually spreading out along the orbit. Intersecting orbits are not the only requirement for the meteoroid-Earth encounter; the meteoroid and the earth must arrive at the intersection point at the same time. It is entirely possible that this condition was not met for 400 years. If the earth encountered the Taurid meteoroid stream only 400 years after ejection, the density could have been extremely high - sufficiently high to produce the situation related in the mythological accounts of the event.
He tries fit in the origins of all the religious myths across the world in to this event. We know that to be not correct. But he has quite number of good data points like how monsoon directions has changed direction after 2300 BC event from the Western side of Himalayas to southern side and how some famous( or mythical) rivers like Sarasvati disappeared etc.

Probably it is 2300 BC event, overlapped by local priest, taken over by Sanskrit speaking new comer Aryans (with their inverted version of avesta) mythicized this story in their language?

What about the Hindu epic ( including Mahabharat and Ramayan) depictions on the Angkor Wat walls?

C's say city is built on 3108 year back ( from 1994 i.e 1114 BC Approx.) by lizards. That doesn't mean these epics are etched on the walls at the same time. But the massive nature of the structure and the timing one has to wonder does 4D STS has any role in creation of these epics? If so what way?

May be its a question for C's.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
May be its a question for C's.
Thank you Laura for asking the questions.
(seek10) C's mentioned that the Hindu epics Ramayan and Mahabharat are representations of cosmic events. Are they the same event or different events?

A: Multiple events!

Q: (seek10) Is Mahabharat event happened at 1100BC end of bronze age event? If no, what is the event date? If yes, is it related to Victor clube's Enke disintegration event ( 1000 =/- 300 BC )?

A: Close enough. But the main event was the 12900 event.
I was NOT willing to considering events of 12900 years old for obvious reason( So many things happened in between. who remembered to be worthy to be documented). But C's was correct again.

Here is a quote from Pierre's SOTT article on the Younger Dryas event. The MAIN characters (5 Pandava's- good guys, 100 Kaurva's- bad guys) in MahaBharata is modeled from fragments of Younger Dryas event comet fragments impact. Obviously It survived all those years, because every local tribe (across the globe)has similar hearings from the past and can easily relate it . if some body comes along ( irrespective of once originating point, language so on) and harmonizes it with layers of partial history, moral lessons , social customs, it becomes acceptable, though it changes over the time with layers of relevance.
The 'Event'

If the Younger Dryas and its accompanying mass extinction was caused by cometary bombardment, the next step is to identify the characteristics of the offending extraterrestrial bodies. Their nature, size, angle of impact and, of course, location of impact.

In his book Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes, Firestone did a tremendous job gathering evidence about the asteroid impacts that triggered the beginning of the Younger Dryas. This book is a must-read if you want to know more details about this topic than what a mere article can convey.

The first task was to identify where the cometary fragments hit Earth. To do so Firestone investigated 'secondary craters', i.e. the craters created by ejecta coming from the primary impacts. Interestingly, the orientation of the secondary craters pointed towards the same location.

By triangulating the trajectories followed by the ejecta (see pictures on the right for an illustration of the method applied to the Hudson impact), Firestone identified five potential primary impacts and their diameter:
...

Indeed, the angle and the nature of the bolide has a direct influence on the shape of the crater. A rock solid meteorite following a vertical trajectory would create a round and deep crater while a 'fluffy' cometary fragment hitting Earth at a low angle would create a shallow elongated (elliptical) crater.

Firestone's hypothesis was confirmed by geological surveys. For example, in Lake Michigan it was revealed that the Chippewa basin looked like a typical crater sub-basin, with its 'terrace faulting', a stair-step pattern formed when large slabs of rock crack and slide downward after impact (see picture on the right).

Seismic profile of the Chippewa Basin showing terrace faulting

The Chippewa basin also reveals some radial fracturing which is usually associated with extraterrestrial impacts.

In summary, Firestone's bombardment scenario goes as follow: a massive comet approached Earth and fragmented into bolides of various sizes. Five cometary fragments were particularly massive and reached the surface of the planet.

The 5 impacts happened virtually at the same time, which suggest they were all part of the same cometary swarm. The fact that the four first impacts in the list above hit a very narrow location (Northern America) suggests that the comet fragmented in 4 pieces shortly before impact.

The fifth crater located in Finland suggests that, before the final fragmentation, an earlier fragmentation occurred where the body that hit Finland freed itself from the rest of the cometary body.

Analysis of the five primary craters showed that they had a similar orientation, therefore they probably came from the same place and belonged to the same cometary cluster (see picture left).
What I find it striking is 5 fragments (5 Pandava's - Good guys of MahaBharata) and lot of small fragments ( 100 Kaurava's - bad guys of MahaBharat). There is a "weird" story related to birth of both Pandava's and Kaurava's (written in Mahabharata) which was debated for centuries in Hindu circles ( self declared custodians - Saints, brahmanas and so on) about what it means. Number 5 as such doesn't have any special meaning though 7 tend to occupy all over the place in Hindu "mythology". Here is one article on that.

- Pandava's were born to 2 wife's of Pandu (Kunti and Madri). But, Pandu was cursed to not able to have children for killing some animals of some saint. So Wife's take the help of Gods to give birth.
This way Kunti invoke three celestials namely Dharma, Vayu, and Indra.
  • From Dharma, she received a son who is the most virtuous in the world. They named him Yudhishthira (Yudh = war, shthira = steady).
  • From Vayu (god of wind), she received a son who is of immense strength and might. They named him Bhimaor Bheema.
    • Duryodhana and Bhima are born on the same day.
  • From Indra (god of lightning & king of Devas), she received a son who will be the most famous all over the three worlds and an unmatchable archer. They named him Arjuna.
...
Then Kunti asks Madri to think of the celestial she wanted to get children from. Madri thinks of twin Ashwini Kumaras (doctors of gods).

From them, she received twins, Nakula and Sahadeva, both matchless in beauty on earth.
Birth of Kaurava's (bad guys) becomes much weirder. The question of possibilities of 100 children was raised by critics for a long time and one of the argument is comparing it with like incubating the egg artificially as in modern medicine (i.e. they are technologically advanced). Well, all sorts of criticisms and countering theories exist in the field.

(1) How Gandhari becomes able to give birth to 100 children?​

Before discussing the birth of Kauravas, let’s see how Gandhari becomes able to give birth to 100 children.

As stated in the “Sambhava Parva“, Gandhari received a boon by worshipping Lord Shiva that she would become the mother of 100 sons. That’s how she can give birth to 100 Kauravas.

However, later in the “Sambhava Parva“, it is said that it is not Shiva but Vyasa from whom Gandhari received a boon of giving birth to 100 sons like her husband.

It does not matter, who gave her the boon. What matters is that she received a boon of having 100 sons. Now let’s see, how she gave birth to those 100 sons.

(2) Birth of 100 Kauravas in 100 Jars filled with Ghee (Clarified butter):​

Gandhari gets jealous of Kunti:​

After receiving the boon of having 100 sons, she was conceived by Dhritarashtra. She bore the weight in her womb for over 2 years without being delivered. In the meantime, a son was born to Kunti (wife of Pandu).

She got jealous that Kunti had first given birth to a son (Yudhishthira) who is as radiant as the morning sun.

Gandhari beats her womb:​

After not delivering for more than 2 years, she got restless and struck her womb with great force in grief (शोक). Due to this a hard mass of flesh like an iron ball came out of her in place of 100 sons.

When Vyasa learned about it, he quickly came to her to see the mass of flesh. She told her that instead of 100 sons, a hard mass of flesh came out of her. And the boon that he gave her is hollow and useless.

Hearing this, Vyasa said that,

My words can never be futile. I have never spoken an untruth even in jest, why then my words are futile!

Birth of 100 sons and 1 daughter to Gandhari:​

She asked Gandhari to prepare 100 jars filled with ghee. He told her to sprinkle water on that mass of flesh. After then he divided it into 100 parts, each about the size of a thumb.

These parts are placed into the jars filled with ghee. They are kept in a secret spot and are carefully monitored.

In the meantime, a desire of having a daughter apart from 100 sons arises in the mind of Gandhari. She told Vyasa that she also wanted a daughter. Then Vyasa divided that mass of flesh into 101 parts instead of 100 and placed these into the jars.

Vyasa told Gandhari to strictly open the covers of the jars only after complete two years. After two years, Duryodhana, the first child of Gandhari was born from one of the jars. And within a month, 100 sons and a daughter of Gandhari and Dhritarashtra were born.

Dhritarashtra 101th son Yuyutsu:​

Dhritarashtra also has a son apart from 100 Kauravas named Yuyutsu. He is the son of Dhritarashtra with Sughada/Sauvali, Gandhari’s maid. Yuyutsu is born at the same time as other Kauravas. So he is of the same age as other Kaurava.
In MahaBharat, there are lot of references of "Aryan". Patriarch Bhishma is called "Arya Putra". This is not the case with Ramayan though although they are considered to be composed in Sanskrit.

Aryans migrated (Not Invaded) during 2nd milleneium BC. Indian Scholar Romila Thopar argued that there is NO evidence of any conflict between coming Aryans and local population in any form in archeological findings. It doesn't make sense when the fertile river delta's ( Ganga, Yamuana etc.) is are at stake. But some possibilities are:
  • Population were thin due to the many cometary events of the 2nd millennium - 1600BC periodic comet cluster , around 1000 BC Enke disintegration event, and some serious proof related to shift of monsoons from West of Himalayas to South, drying up of rivers like Saraswathi ( in 3rd and 2nd Milleanium BC)
  • Population are familiar to coming Aryans or Aryan language (Sanskrit) because their ancestors are also from the same stock ( 5000 years back). - This fits in to C's 6000 BC aryan invasion comment and Modern genetic analysis by David Reich.

What is "Bharat" ?

Bharat is the name given to the independent Indian republic after Independence. But its origin goes back tribes that migrated in 2nd Millennium. This is important in the context of modern day conflict of historians of Aryan origins in India. - Out of India , Into India theory. The resistance comes from origin of modern day "nationalism". This is in response to complete destruction of agriculture (during British era) on which 80% of local population depended (at that time) and other PR theories they propagated at that time like "Eastern Despotism". But, that is a different long topic by itself.

The Bharatas were an early Vedic tribe that existed in the latter half of the second millennium B.C.E.

The earliest mentioned location of the Bharatas was on the first Sarasvati River in southern Afghanistan. Under the tribal king Divodāsa, the Bharatas moved through the Hindu Kush mountains and defeated Śambara. Divodāsa's descendant, Sudās, won the Battle of the Ten Kings against a Puru-led coalition, which set the scene for the initial compilation of hymns of the Rigveda. After the battle, the Bharatas and other Puru clans would eventually form the Kuru Kingdom, which was the first attested state in Indian history.

Who wrote MahaBharata and Why?

MahaBharata is longest epic poem ( 100,000 slokas or over 200,000 individual verse lines, 1.8 million words in total, ten times the length of the Iliad and the Odyssey combined, or about four times the length of the Rāmāyaṇa )in the World, and attributed to Saint Vysa and there is consensus that Vysa is group rather than one person and the oldest was created around 400BCE. Obviously, who wrote which chapter and when is a endless discussion.
By going layering approach, I wondered are there any historical component , characters that we can verify and see any circumstances that necessitated.
- location wise There is a Kuru MahaJanapada (some Janapada are republics and some kingdoms). The first character that can be dated in King Parikshit.

Historicity​

Only one Parikshit is mentioned in Vedic literature; however, post-Vedic literature (Mahabharata and Puranas) seems to indicate the existence of two kings by this name –– one who lived before the Kurukshetra War, an ancestor to the Pandavas, and one who lived later as a descendant of the Pandavas. Historian H. C. Raychaudhuri believes that the second Parikshit's description better corresponds to the Vedic king, whereas the information available about the first is scanty and inconsistent, but Raychaudhuri questions whether there were actually two distinct kings. He suggests that the doubling was eventually "invented by genealogists to account for anachronisms" in the later parts of the Mahabharata, as "a bardic duplication of the same original individual regarding whose exact place in the Kuru genealogy no unanimous tradition had survived," and therefore there "is an intrusion into the genealogical texts" of the late, post-Vedic tradition, which also has two of Parikshit's son Janamejaya.


Kuru and other kingdoms of the Vedic period
Michael Witzel notes Parikṣhit to be an early Kuru king; he dates the Pārikṣita Dynasty to c. 1200-1100 BC (the late Rig-Vedic period). In contrast, H.C. Raychaudhuri had dated him to ninth century BC. Witzel deems Parikṣhit (along with other kings of the dynasty) to be primarily responsible for the collation of diverse strands of material into singular "national" collections — Rig Veda Samhita, Samveda Samhitas, and Khilani.
Since King Pariksita is "collecting" Veda's, recent destructions ( 1100 Bc) are still people's mind. King has to respond to the people's questions irrespective of documentation format. It is reasonable to assume He collected all that didn't fit into Vedic corpus. Of course there will be common characters.

I basically thought These epics are made up and was surprised when C's said "document". I wondered how do you even document them. The main difference between these epics ( Mahabharata and Ramayan) is they are like soap opera's not like individual character events mentioned in later day Purana's( incarnations, good character killing evil and so on).

What about other competing clan members of the same kingdom/Janapada or other Kingdoms who by competition has to challenge the narrtion. As long as the story is in line with what every body observed, that should answer. Just like modern day movies, people argue about the characters, their relevance, themes, whether represented correctly or not and so on. In summary, this is how looks to me.

1. Originating event is 10900 BC on which Main characters modeled ( Pandava's and Kaurava's). Add some other layers of the recent events as sub plots. There are LOT of subplots in the story.
2. They can layer with Vedic Janapada's culture system, their kings and so on for the later layers of genealogy and so on.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Q: (seek10) What is the Ramayan's originating cosmic event date?

(L) Well, since they said multiple events, I'm not sure you can divide it up that way. So, next question:

(seek10) Is it the 2300 BC event hypothesised by M.M. Mendelkher?

A: Close enough.
Well, I was not expecting to be even "Close enough". I was searching around trying to reconcile the data points, observations, controversies, theories I heard or read to see we can figure out about what happened in the sky, knowing that it will be a almost impossible task. There are major differences w.rt. circumstances of plot characters, background and later development w.rt MahaBharata.
  • Ramayan story line has many versions is widely popular not only in India and many south Indian countries. It doesn't have too much Aryan references and has popular in South East asian countries like Thailand, Malaysia, Phillippines, Indonesia, Mynmar and so on. Which is not the case with MahaBharata.
  • Ramayan Story line contains Sri Lanka and south India. MahaBharata story limits itself to the North Indian Janapada's.
  • There are lot of questions related where Ayodhya mentioned in Ramayan belongs. Scientists puzzled that Ayodhya that was in North India doesn't exist in 600 BC when this text is supposed to have been originated.
  • Mahabharata that supposed to have been originated in 400 BC has a part of Ramayan story line as a sideline. It is also widely utilized with minor modifications Ramayan was adopted in to other competing religions that were created as an alternative to Vedic Brahminic excesses like to Buddhism and Jainism.
  • The first Indian empire (that combines both North and South India )
  • Ramayan is expected to be written in Sanskrit. If Sanskrit language came from migrating Indo-Aryans ( 1500 BC ) and their Janapada's, it is limited to North India. If so, how Ramanyan is scripted in Sanskrit? This can be reconciled by saying Initial Aryan invasion happened in 6000 BC and they have some version of Sanskrit by the time 2nd version Vedic Indo Aryans came in the 2nd Millenium.
    • This raises a question of what is going on in South India during 2nd Millennium BC? . Indian Scholar Romali Thapar noted about a Kingdom in south India in her book "Which of US are Aryans" and no body bothered to dig to research further.
The Harappan Period has always enjoyed a privileged place in Indian archaeology that first began with the concerted efforts to locate Harappan and Harappan-affliated sites within the borders of India. It can still be seen in more recent proclamations of heightened antiquity and size of the site of Rakhigarhi located in Haryana. To date, information on sites that show urban features as far away as Tamil Nadu [1] are considered to link the so-called 'Vaigai civilization' with the Indus Civilization, showing the continuing aura of the Harappan culture on the archaeology of India. Towards that end, it becomes imperative to negate the idea of societal fluctuations, and to instead suggest that there was a continuous urban trajectory in the past.
It is dated to 1200 BC
  • 1st round 2015 excavation by ASI: Unearthed antiquities that “provide crucial evidence to understanding the missing links of the Iron Age [12th century BCE to the 6th century BCE] to the Early Historic Period [6th century BCE to the 4th century BCE] and subsequent cultural developments.
  • 2nd round 2016: Clues about the existence of a Tamil civilisation that had trade links with other regions in the country and abroad. This civilisation has been described by Tamil poets belonging to the Sangam period
  • Tamil Language (main dravidian language in South India) has similarities to the Australian linguist residue. I read it as C's comment of Parantha's. C's also mentioned about 50,000 year old nuclear war between invading Aryans and Parantha's.
The term Mleccha for 'barbaric' tribes may likewise go back to the population of the lower Indus, the Melubba people known to the Mesopotamians, cf. Pali 'Milakkhu' Il Finally, even older data are found in the Australian language substrate in Tamil (Blaiek, 2006), which is due to the migration of Out-of-African populations along the coast, via India to Southeast Asia/ Sundaland and to Australia, some 50,000 years ago (Pitchappan, 2008). ... What this pointed to was that Sanskrit was not ancestral to all the Indian languages and that the Dravidian group had other roots. Prior to the spread of Indo—Aryan, the Dravidian languages were used in various parts of the subcontinent as is also evident from linguistic remnants to this day. A possible borrowing between the various groups of languages would be expected where they were contiguous. The recognition that there were other languages contemporary with Indo-Aryan such as those of the Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic families required the examining of their relationships.
This reminded me of C's comment of Parantha's. C's also mentioned about 50,000 year old nuclear war between invading Aryans and Local Parantha's.

Are there any Physical evidence ( of cosmic) that can prove some thing in 3rd Millenium around the area that can give some clues. I came across a video talking about the 3 mile asteroid that have crashed in to Indian ocean around 2800 BC ( called Burckle Crater) that created V shaped Chevron sediments in Madagascar and Australia. This crater is located 930 miles south east of Madagascar and it is a 18 miles structure and 13K meters under water.
The Russian Academy of Sciences lists the feature as a potential impact crater.[1] The Holocene Impact Working Group (HIWG)[3] propose that it was formed by a very large-scale and relatively recent (c. 3000–2800 BCE) meteorite impact event, possibly resulting from a comet.

Burckle crater has not yet been dated by radiometric analysis of its sediments. The Holocene Impact Working Group researchers think that it formed about 5,000 years ago (c. 3000–2800 BCE), during the Holocene epoch. They consider the possibility that a comet, or the remains of one, hit the ocean floor, with subsequent megatsunamis creating the dune formations which allowed the crater to be pin-pointed.

Unusual calcite (CaCO3) crystals, translucent carbon spherules, fragments of basaltic glass and native metals (native iron and nickel) are reported near the crater and associated with impact ejecta or hot water precipitates. Seawater at the depth of the crater is undersaturated with respect to calcite and rapid burial would have been needed to preserve those crystals.[4]
Here is the Video. ( watch it is from 16 min 28 sec)
Here is a screen shot from the video ( Red line is added by me)
burkle crater.jpg
Look at the red line where Ramayan battle supposed to have happened. Look at the nations where Ramayan was popular - Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar.
  • If a mega tsunami have happened, it should have reached these areas and must have in tribal memory that to be resonated with folks when these Ramayan story reached them.
  • It gives completely new meaning to Ramayan battle - monkeys (Hanuman's army) throwing stones to create a bridge for Rama to cross from India to Sri Lanka to Kill SriLankan king Ravana ( king of Rakshasa). Probably that is how it looked from India looking South.
  • Well, Does the Rama exist or not we don't know except what C's said ( leaving aside mythological accounts in Hinduism and structures and its related controversies - Babri Masjid demolition etc.) as a High priest influenced by Confederation. Obviously good guys thought worth it to influence a tribal high priest and some body worth it to be overlap it over a mega tsunami to "document" it and propagate it as a mythological story.
1994-10-20
Q: Rama?

A: Indian. High priest influenced by Confederation.
Regarding timing what we have is Victor Clube's Enke disintegration event of (3000+/- 300 BC ) and Russian scientists dating of 3000- 2800 BC,. M.M Mendelkher considers it as 2300 BC as he was linking the destruction of the empires around that time and considers that 400 years difference due to plane of disintegration is pointed to earth when it happened around 2700 BC . I haven't looked at his sources of the destruction of these empires, but it is good enough for me.
 

sid

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
This is excellent research @seek10 . I have some thoughts to post but been busy and sickly of late. I will add a few now anyways and will come back later. Fyi, its interesting that I had also connected the breaking of Younger Dryas' comet to the five Pandavas not so long ago. Hint: the one that broke up first and landed in Greenland is the Karna(total 6 Pandavas). Below hypothesis will have some errors but can be revised as more data surfaces.

When considering the epic, Ramayana which is said to predate Mahabharata, my deduction is that its a tale that has been brewed to legitimize the Aryan invasion of India approx. 8000 years ago. In terms of the characters, Rama appears to be based on a mythicized hero from the Atlantean times i.e. the times before the comet that brought the worldwide flood approx. 12,400 years ago. The name carried over with the surviving Aryans and that included the nuclear war too, regardless it occurred 50K years ago. As they invaded India from the Northern direction, traveling South all the way to Sri Lanka, they re-used the stories, fake-gods, and myths from their own memory to confound the generations post-invasion.

The sub-continent was occupied by tribes and neanderthals, hardly the kind who can put up any resistance to a mentally superior race with knowledge of advanced weaponry and military strategies. Prince Rama, on a journey through India accompanied by his brother and a sage teacher, was said to have wiped a lot of these supposedly beasts who were being the troublemakers to the priests and the sages in the forests. Looked at another way, those tribals were fighting against the injustices and caste system that the Aryan priests were trying to preach and implement but were either wiped or beaten into submission by the Aryan invaders. Since they lost the battles, they are now the bad guys in the story, also called the Asuras. Interesting that Zarathustra calls the Asuras the good guys.

It was not all smooth sailing though as Ravana rose from the poverty, gained political/military education from the likes of Mahabali (another interesting character who was driven underground by the Aryans), became a Maverick and then led a revolution/coup against his half-brother Kubera to become the king of Lanka. Ruling with strong political will and a sense of justice, he turned the fortunes of Lanka around. It became the wealthiest city in the world with shipyards and trade routes everywhere. Even the official mythological texts called it a city of gold. One doesn't achieve that by being a tyrant that he has been portrayed but by working at it slowly, building up strong trade, turning enemies into allies via diplomacy, long-term economic policies, and gaining the support of his people by improving the living standards and equality laws. E.g. Widows were not forced to wear whites and could re-marry in the city of Lanka, to the surprise and horror of the Aryan dominated societies.

The Aryans couldn't stand the rising influence of Ravana therefore, he had to be taken down therefore, they invented a false-flag i.e. the story of Sita (Rama's wife) being abducted and taken to Lanka is a myth. Both Rama and Sita are not real characters or not the ones portrayed in the epic so, all events concerning these two are made-up to keep the narrative flowing. The Aryan priests had a real stronghold in the Northern India but they didn't have a decent sized army (having been subdued by Ravana during his many invasions up North), therefore, they needed the false-flag events to garner support from the middle and southern-Indian kingdoms, some of which were also on the fence and a bit jealous of Ravana's rise. They were also getting brainwashed by the priests and getting bought into the silly but effective Caste-system of ruling the subjects. It would allow the cowardly kings to keep the throne and power in the family after-all. They either didn't know or underestimated the power of influence that the priests were to exert on the future generations. An effect that is still quite strong in the modern India.

Either way, Ravana was defeated by economic war of attrition i.e. the Aryan generals first cut off all inbound/outbound goods movement to Lanka and then managed to force the tribals and some neanderthals with ape-like features to be used as the cannon fodder when launching the invasion. No actual monkeys were involved or harmed in the process!! The sea-level was lower then therefore, Lanka was land-connected to India; a bridge was not required to be built. Post Ravana's defeat, all the gold from Lanka was stolen and a puppet king established who would start to implement the Aryan ruling system, the religious schools, allowances for the priests, the caste system etc, the works!!. The way of the Parshurama, as it was called. Parshurama is also a fictional character based on a comet which destroyed all Kshatriya (Warriors) in India, later connected to the Vishnu myth. In general, the appointed chief Aryan priest would adopt the idendity and name of Parshurama which is why the character appears repeatedly across long stretches of time. It was essentially a powerful sect which ran political and warrior schools used as a way to impart their brand of education on the kings and princes.

Does the above sounds like what they have been trying to do to Russia and world in general with their brand of education and programming? Human mind is so fickle and predictable that, history repeats itself ad-nauseam. The introduction of concepts such as Rama being an avatar of Vishnu (planet Venus) are later editions to the story. Even the legend of Inanna became much more famous after the 7th pass of Venus ie. when the goddess had gone underground for good having been stripped of everything. The propaganda spreads after the event, not during. A portion of the same psychopathic Aryan (aka Kantekkian) bunch went in Egypt and established themselves as Pharaohs with similar sounding gods and a modified caste system i.e. Priests and slaves.

Will post more later.
 

OutSky

Jedi
Very interesting posts, particularly the first one of this thread.

Usually we are inclined to go by a rational line based on what we realise in the mundane world, such as historical places and persons. However, as I see, to a full understanding of those epic tales one must not ignore their magical parts, which are indeed a large component of them. In that line, a “super-technology” may be like sorcery, that is merely a material manifestation of high mental power, in turn derived from deep knowledge on the structure of our beings and densities. There, in those stories we have fantastical cities, magical arms, powerful beings altering or building a segment of the structural reality that simply is a mental projection —like have said the C’s.

Also, the mentioned above could be supplemented in another way: A peculiar word is ‘maya,’ which in Sanskritic vocabulary is used as suffix indicative of the composition of many materials, such as water, iron, clay, stones, bones, wood, etc. Then we have in the Hindu myths the chief king architect called Mayasura (or simply Maya), who in Sanskrit (मय) means “asura of the illusion power.” See? If all that magic were supposed to be not important, it for sure would be not there in so much extension and details all over those legends.

Now, out of a speculative cogitation, what is sure is that the same event occurs again and again during the man journey through “time” not only because we use to forget our story, but remember, we are within a repetitive time-loop that till then lasts 74,000 years. Thus, and in my experience based on research, dates work merely like signs instead of chronological sequences. Also we could recall that, as the C’s mention, “history is a bit muddied by design.

So, the latter note accents a way —especially if combined with the C’s transcripts— to find the truth beyond our usual myopic vision of this world. Now, the notes of Velikovsky are memorable by his, in fact, great work on comparative mythology crossed with the characters of our material solar system. Indeed I hope other notes on him be presented in this or other thread. On the other hand, to cite one example differing from what he conjectured, as I see, Vishnu is not Venus.

Vishnu is a keeper. He is the venerable Vedic god whose major task is to maintain the 3D universe and the devas (gods) alive and immutable. During his stories, all the time, shameless and ruthlessly he slays the enemies —i.e. asuras, said reptilian demons— who challenge that “stability”. But note that in spite of the slaughterous hecatomb inflicted on asuras, yet the asura Maya was blatantly spared.

Now let’s hold on the latter comment. In Sanskrit —which came from Atlantis, say the C’s— ‘ma’ (in Ma-ya), as well as, ‘matra’ are said[Monier Williams, Sanskrit Dic.] to mean “measure.” Furthermore, the latter still denotes as “matter,” “atom,” “duration,” “musical unit of time”, “metrical unit,” ,…, and “mother”. Also we have the Sanskritic ‘matre’ meaning “period”, and finally ‘mayanta’ —spelled also maya-anda— indicating “metre,” that we know, involves a mathematical quality inherent of the densities, of which was mentioned in another post. Right, with all that now it is easy to us to perceive that maya also imbues a sense of “creation”… Conclusion: the world seems constructed of illusion. Well, Ra told us this relentlessly. Indeed the Hinduism does not hide this, on contrary, it is fundamental part of its principles as well as it claims, ‘the soul is enveloped in illusion.’​

With that above said, comes to my mind some episodes of Castaneda:
The Jorney to Ixtlan — Castaneda

"To believe that shadows are just shadows is doing," he explained. "That belief is somehow stupid. Think about it this way: There is so much more to everything in the world that obviously there must be more to shadows too. After all, what makes them shadows is merely our doing."
………………

The Active Side of Infinity — Castaneda

Darkness had descended very quickly, and the foliage of the trees that had been glowing green a little while before was now very dark and heavy. Don Juan said that if I paid close attention to the darkness of the foliage without focusing my eyes, but sort of looked at it from the corner of my eye, I would see a fleeting shadow crossing my field of vision.

"This is the appropriate time of day for doing what I am asking you to do," he said. "It takes a moment to engage the necessary attention in you to do it. Don't stop until you catch that fleeting black shadow."

I did see some strange fleeting black shadow projected on the foliage of the trees. It was either one shadow going back and forth or various fleeting shadows moving from left to right or right to left or straight up in the air. They looked like fat black fish to me, enormous fish. It was as if gigantic swordfish were flying in the air. I was engrossed in the sight. Then, finally, it scared me. It became too dark to see the foliage, yet I could still see the fleeting black shadows. "What is it, don Juan?" I asked. "I see fleeting black shadows all over the place."

"Ah, that's the universe at large," he said, "incommensurable, nonlinear, outside the realm of syntax. The sorcerers of ancient Mexico were the first ones to see those fleeting shadows, so they followed them around. They saw them as you're seeing them, and they saw them as energy that flows in the universe. And they did discover something transcendental." He stopped talking and looked at me. His pauses were perfectly placed. He always stopped talking when I was hanging by a thread. "What did they discover, don Juan?" I asked.

"They discovered that we have a companion for life," he said, as clearly as he could. "We have a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners.

Moreover, an odd part of that is that afterwards Vishnu self-incorporates, for ever, the name (or title), qualities and physical appearance of his defeated enemies. Vishnu did not beat Venus, but for certain, he uses “aspects” caused by Venus. See, same occurs in the “Central America” accounts where Venus was called “Quetzalcoatl” —because of its ancient cometary appearance like a snake tail crossing the sky. Then there, in Mesoamerica, eventually came an ancient entity, claimed a godly teacher, who took over such title “Quetzalcoatl” to himself and thus conquered the attention of his worshippers.

So, in my opinion, to achieve a deep comprehension of Vedas, Puranas, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Iliad, Odyssey, etc. is necessary to regard name places as cultural references which should not be used to pinpoint current locations; they are more like useful immemorial remains.
August 17, 2003 Session

A:….There are many events presented as one time-wise.
On the latter note, for instance, in objective terms Troy is not, or was, nearby our Greece. As to the “medieval” claim of Troy in Britain, well, maybe the Arthurian literature can give us great clues on this —in specific I recommend the German Parzival.

In short, as more we go throughout myths more we can see them as an amalgamation of events of different “periods” which have worked ultimately to retain our mental status in the 3D universe. By the way, scholars have often compared Mahabharata and Ramayana to the work of Homer —Ramayana indeed is termed the ‘Iliad of the East’. Then, for a moment, we could wonder that Homer derives from the Indian tales, but more likely, as I see, is that those western and eastern mythical sagas represent similar events of distinct mental environs that involve, in particular, transitional densities. And again, for a last example, the “monkey” Hanuman personage of Ramayana/Mahabharata has notable counterpart settled in Chinese background, as well as, then ”possibly” even in our western arts.​

328px-Burning_of_Lanka.jpg

Monkey Hanuman (Ramayana saga)

431px-The_Monkey_Songok%C3%BB.jpg

Chinese epical Monkey

Arcadia shepherds, monkey 3 - left face section.jpg
Old chimp, amidst other monkeys folded in Poussin
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I got this Zaehner's book written in 1961 and reading it. The dating of Zoroaster into 600 BC actually became very confusing. The Kurgon Hypothesis gang is happy to put Zoroaster into 600 BC time frame ( Steppes migration starting in 4000 BC -> ... -> Vedic Sanskritian Aryans migrating around 2000 - 1500 BC into India).
  • But, there are some issues with splitting date of the Indo-Iranians to Indians and Iranians as the Avesta created by Zoroastrian is considered origin of Indo-Iranians before Vedic Sanskrit gang moved to India with the compilation of Veda's around 1400-800 BC. some says Avesta is much older around 2000 BC before Indo-Iranian split.
Well, Even that doesn't seems to fit in with other data points like C's saying Aryan Invasion happened in 6200 BC. But that seems to nicely fit into David Riech's genetic analysis ( 2015) as multi step migration - one at migration 7000 BC and another one in 2000 BC.
View attachment 64185
This is in synch with Mary Settegast 6500 BC - 6200 BC time line in her 2005 book "When Zarathustra Spoke". Settegast has one entire chapter to address this issue. Multiple migrations ( peace loving farmer migration around 6000 BC and aggressive Indo-Iranian-european from steppes' starting with 4000 BC culminating in Aryan migration in 2000-1500 BC ).




Peaceful Farmers or heroic warriors ?


Does this "so called" peaceful Farmer Aryan migrants of 6000 BC and "Aggressive" Aryan migrants has any thing to do genetic tweak C's talked about ? 2001-08-20

Settegast seems to be says ( I could be wrong) that Indo -Iranian split happened 6000 BC and culminated in 2000-1500 Bc migrations when they wrote Veda's. 4000 years is a pretty long time ( 6000 BC - 2000 BC). The challenge is there is a black hole of information about what happened in current day proper India during that time. sure, they have Indus Valley/Harappan Civilization in the North Western India, but no body knows about them except they have pretty good urban life.-

My initial confusion is if Aryan Invaded in 6000 BC with their cultural organization of hierarchies of Kshatriya's , did they kept quite all that time. But the veteran Indian Historian Romila Thapar (specialized in Ancient India) argued ( in her books) that the so called "Caste system" evolved from "Clan based hierarchy" of semi-nomadic pastoralists to "caste based" only 1st millennium BC due to their expansion through Janapada's - not before. This explains the Aryans who migrated all over the world didn't have caste system. Again there are folks who gave examples of Caste system in other cultures associate it with Aryans. May be they have but wiped out by monotheisms later. I guess, It is lot more complicated than that.

There is another theory Settegast mentions about the possibilities of multiple historical Zarathustra's.

Every roman emperors used Caesar as a title after Julius Caesar. So there is high probability of multiple historical Zarathustra's. Does it mean the Zarathustra (in patronage of Vishtapin around 600 BC) R. C. Zaehner ( say version 2.0) may not be original Zarathustra?

It is confusing even to write about this post.
When we look at the Indian origins, there is LOT of controversy which takes many formats - Aryan vs Dravidian, North Indian vs South Indian, Left vs right , Upper Caste vs lower and so on. This issue is aggravated by politics of the nation and any attempt to impose Hindi (derivative of Sanskrit came in from Aryan legacy ) across the nation gets backlash from south and has to be rolled back.

Even though there is a consensus of Aryan migration in 2nd millennium BC and their texts ( Vedas, MahaBharata etc.) and their social organization, there is a sort of blackhole about what was going on in India before that. It's related to lack of information from Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) which itself was very large area ( Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western India and other surrounding areas). Few skeleton's found from IVC period, but not much DNA from them. Lot of hope ( speculation and controversy) was placed on 4500 year old ear bone near a IVC location in North Western India. Here is a article on this .
As the dust of the petrous bones of a 4,500-year-old skeleton from Rakhigarhi, Haryana, settles, we may have the answer to a few questions that have vexed some of the best minds in history and science -- and a lot of politicians along the way:

Q: Were the people of the Harappan civilisation the original source of the Sanskritic language and culture of Vedic Hinduism? A: No.

Q: Do their genes survive as a significant component in India's current population? A: Most definitely.

Q: Were they closer to popular perceptions of 'Aryans' or of 'Dravidians'? A: Dravidians.

Q: Were they more akin to the South Indians or North Indians of today? A: South Indians.
Based on the genetic analysis, Indus valley civilization is combination of Indigenous population and Iranian farmers, But, no steppes ancestry ( Indo-Iranians). This is like a hit to C's sessions. But, this raises question of Who is Aryan? Though 19th century European analysis started Aryan as "Racial" distinction and there seems to be some census that they are not racial, at best it is linguistic and Cultural combination. It's not all, There are migrations from East , brought Rice Crop into India, though not too much genetic footprint though.
As discussed in the first part of this series, around 5,000 years ago (3,000 BCE), India was on the verge of a major demographic transition, as new groups migrated to the subcontinent and mixed with the original inhabitants. The original inhabitants of the subcontinent, its aborigines, labeled by geneticists as Ancient Ancestral South Indians (AASI), lived throughout the subcontinent, but were soon to be partially assimilated into two demographic waves of farmers from the east and west: a larger group of Middle Eastern farmers expanding from what is now the northwestern part of the subcontinent, and a smaller group of Southeast Asian farmers from the east, whose demographic impact was minor, but whose crop — rice — transformed life in South Asia, because rice can be thrive in India’s climate much better than wheat. Soon, the final major contributor to the subcontinent’s ancient culture and demography, the steppe peoples, would arrive.
The period after 2,000 BCE seems to have been a time of great change and mixing in India, as Aryans and Dravidians expanded, agriculture spread, and rice was introduced. By the time of the establishment of states along the Ganges more than a thousand years later, Dravidian and Aryan groups were mixing and influencing each other, though it probably took a long time, possibly up to just a thousand years ago, for Dravidian and Aryan cultures to spread throughout the entire subcontinent, and seep from the elite level to the masses (generally hierarchically lower groups in India seek to raise their status by adopting norms associated with the higher castes). During this process, the ANI and ASI genetic populations also mixed, inevitably, as farmers from the Indus Valley region migrated into the Ganges Valley, and then south; in some places like Bengal, the ANI mixed not only with ASI, but with Southeast Asian genetic components.

1994-10-20
Q: When did the Aryans invade India?

A: 8243 years ago.


Q: Who was there before that?

A: Asian tribes and number 3 prototype.

Q: What is a number 3 prototype?

A: Known as Neanderthal man.

Q: And what are we?

A: Number 4 types c and d. Translation into English comprehension.
This raises a question of whether Iranian Farmers of 6000BC are Aryans? They may be in the sense of Kantekennian/Modern Humans, not in the sense of Steppe's migration of Kurgon Hypothesis.

1997-05-31
Q: So, the Paranthas were the antecedents of the Abos of Australia?

A: Yes, and compare to now existing peoples of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Australia, and New Guinea for similarities, bearing in mind genetic mixing and dilution.

Q: Were the Vedas written by the Paranthas or written by the Celts?

A: Descendants of Parantha, as per "Divine guidance."
Veda's are attributed to the migrating Indo-Aryan groups, but C's seems to be saying it is done by descendants of extinct race Parantha's.
There seems to be some linguistic traces of Astro- Eastern Asiatic languages in Dravidian language Tamil. Whether that is related to Parantha's or not, is hard to say. So it is hard to say Veda's are contributed by Dravidians. Probably, Indo-Aryans picked majority of it during their migration path and added their own memories and made it theirs?
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Veda's are attributed to the migrating Indo-Aryan groups, but C's seems to be saying it is done by descendants of extinct race Parantha's.
There seems to be some linguistic traces of Astro- Eastern Asiatic languages in Dravidian language Tamil. Whether that is related to Parantha's or not, is hard to say. So it is hard to say Veda's are contributed by Dravidians. Probably, Indo-Aryans picked majority of it during their migration path and added their own memories and made it theirs?

@seek10 ,

This latest archeological find seems like an important missing link that supports what the Cs were saying about the original IVC and the original meaning of Parantha's version of the Vedas.

The description of the Harappan civilization in Mary Settegast's book When Zarathustra Soke points out how little is known about them.

It made me curious about the Harappan civilization and I did watch a video that is not super detailed but gives a general idea of possible daily life for the Harappans. This video is by a young enthusiastic history buff without a lot of credentials but I found it interesting:


In short, as more we go throughout myths more we can see them as an amalgamation of events of different “periods” which have worked ultimately to retain our mental status in the 3D universe.

I think this "amalgamation" may explain many of the overlapping story narratives we see in myths and religions worldwide.

- His weapon is three pronged fork called Trishul.
The above attribute of Shiva may be an example of the amalgamation of storylines from different cultures. I had not noticed this 3 pronged weapon being one attribute of Shiva. It is difficult to find the exact origin of this weapon/symbol.

Session 27 July 1997:
Q: What is the definition of the god 'Baphomet,' if they did, indeed, worship such?

A: The holder of the Trent.

Q: What is THAT?

A: Seek.
I have been "seek"ing and maybe @seek10 has part of the answer by adding the "Trishula".

Statue_of_lord_shiva.jpg

I think this symbol may be important and even a little dangerous to know too much about unless it is "time" to learn so to speak.

Session 12 December 1998:
Q: Now, in reference to your question to me: 'where is Arcadia,' that I need to look at this some more, I was reading in Gregory of Tours' History of the Franks, and he was recounting that the Franks who colonized along the Rhine in the area about which we are seeking clues, came from an area called Pannonia. I looked up Pannonia. It is in Eastern Austria and crosses the border into Hungary. In Pannonia there are vineyards. It is a very famous grape growing and wine making area. A statement from the 4th century says: 'Pannonia is a land rich in all resources and fruits, beasts and commerce.' Pannonia is also the location of an interesting lake. The lake is called Neusiedl, or 'New Town.' This is the only 'steppe lake' in all of Europe. It is only six feet deep at it's deepest point and is a giant, shallow sweet body of water surrounded on the Eastern bank by marshlands, numerous salty ponds and pools. Apparently, this place produces a very fine environment for grapes and wine, in particular a type of wine called 'Eiswein.' This Eiswein is called 'The treasure of liquid gold.' It says here: 'the production of Eiswein remains the winemakers ultimate challenge.' Only a small amount of this wine is produced. Etomologically speaking, Pannonia is probably named after the God 'Pan,' and that derived from Sylvanus, the 'Shepherd God.' So, all in one spot, we have shepherds, a wine called liquid gold, a lake called Neusiedl, and an 'Arcadian environment.' Can you tell me if there is any particular significance to my discovery of the terms relating to this area from whence came the Franks to the Rhineland? Is this, in fact, Arcadia?

A: Arcadia is a crossroads for the one Essene, the Aryan one of Trent.

Q: Can you clarify that for me?

A: We can, but shall not.
The name Trent is German for Trento Italy where the Counsel of Trent was held.

I am beginning to see a possible "Aryan" connection to this symbol.

One interesting comparison is the Lesser Coat of Arms of Ukraine, the so-called Tryzub. A stylized trident symbol in gold on a background shield of blue.

Lesser_Coat_of_Arms_of_Ukraine.svg.png

The Aryan influence seems to be a thread running throughout history and is not limited to any one country.

Just to give another example I think of the Trident of Neptune/Posiden.

Poseidon Holding Trident.jpg

There is one aspect or characteristic of the Aryan race that the Cs mention that is unsettling to me:

Session 7 October 1994:

Q: (L) What is the origin of the Aryan race?

A: 5th planet now know as asteroid belt.1

Q: (L) When did they come to earth?

A: 80 thousand years ago? Difficult for us to use your measuring system.

Q: (L) Were they similar in form and structure to what they are now?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Why is it that our scientists have not been able to uncover evidence of such ancient existence?

A: They have. Do not want to acknowledge it.

Q: (L) Where do the Celts come from?

A: Same. Ferocious people. Came from fifth planet.


Q: (L) When was that planet destroyed?

A: 80 thousand years ago.

I am beginning to think the only thing worth fighting for ferociously is Truth and Love.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
One additional aspect of the city of Trent/Trento Italy that I forgot to include was part of its Roman history.

Trento was conquered by the Romans in the 1st century BC, after several clashes with the Rhaetian tribes. Before the Romans, Trento was a Celtic village. Julius Caesar re-founded it as a Roman municipality when Rome extended citizenship to the part of Cisalpine Gaul north of the River Po.[14][15] The Latin name given to the settlement was Tridentum, meaning "Three-teeth place" or "Trident-town" (tri- "three" + dēns, dent- "tooth"). The reason for the name is uncertain: the new town may have been consecrated to the god Neptune, or possibly named after the three hills that surround the city (known in Italian as Doss Trento, Doss di Sant'Agata and Doss di San Rocco. The Latin name is the source of the adjective "tridentine". On the old city hall, a Latin inscription is still visible: "Montes argentum mihi dant nomenque Tridentum" ("Mountains give me silver and the name of Trento"), attributed to Fra' Bartolomeo da Trento (died in 1251). Tridentum became an important stop on the Roman road that led from Verona to Innsbruck.[16]
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The above attribute of Shiva may be an example of the amalgamation of storylines from different cultures. I had not noticed this 3 pronged weapon being one attribute of Shiva. It is difficult to find the exact origin of this weapon/symbol.
In my current understanding this 3 pronged weapon( or Trishul) is representation of plasma phenomenon, but who puts this in which mythological character's hand ( Siva or somebody else) depends on the aim of the person who is characterizing it.
When considering the epic, Ramayana which is said to predate Mahabharata, my deduction is that its a tale that has been brewed to legitimize the Aryan invasion of India approx. 8000 years ago. In terms of the characters, Rama appears to be based on a mythicized hero from the Atlantean times i.e. the times before the comet that brought the worldwide flood approx. 12,400 years ago. The name carried over with the surviving Aryans and that included the nuclear war too, regardless it occurred 50K years ago. As they invaded India from the Northern direction, traveling South all the way to Sri Lanka, they re-used the stories, fake-gods, and myths from their own memory to confound the generations post-invasion.
I think there is a variation in interpertation of the word 'High Priest' C's mentioned - Atlantian high prieest, Tribal high priest ( before 6000 BC invasion) or may be some tribes after Iranian farmer invasion to India ( around 6000 BC). My thought process is if the overlap happens, cosmic event first and people are overlapped over it. I was thinking Rama may be after 2300 BC event and before 110BC event.

Your question and C's answer surprised me as if it is documentation of legitimate event and led me to interesting journey. How will they document. My Initial attempt is look for clues. More I researched at it at the beginning, more confusing and frustrating it became and bringing question of what is the point of the obsession. Honestly, I want to understand my past impression of childhood, but it looked too much to ask for as I find the scenario of mind numbing complexity. At that moment I thought of reading some books as I was not much aware of the Indo-Aryans popping up exept Arya Samaj and some Aryan references in Mahabharata. I read few Romila Thapar's books and tried to make sense of them. They helped in filtering out lot of noise in the chaotic narration.

  1. Indology started as a necessary furniture of British empire. British took the narration of the Brahmin's version of 4 varna's as castes. But, Early 20th century census showed at least 3000 castes. Caste is English word simplification for the Jati and Varna.
  2. There are some European scholars who were fascinated by Indian culture, others repulsed by it, spent LOT of time translating it into English and analyzing it. But, most of them based on Brahmanical interpretation.
  3. How it is received in India is of big controversy even today ( congress ( left/appeasers/sicularists/in to India theory) vs BJP as recent version ( Hindu dominance, Aryan, Out of India theory etc. ). Add Aryan vs Dravidian narration into it. Most picked what they thought is correct (according to their experience) and rejected many to be only mocked by others as hypocrites. May of them are participants of Independence movement. But the post independence historiography focused on sociological aspects and considered many aspects british version didn't consider - Late 1st millennium Bhakti movements, split of Hinduism into Shaivism and Vaishnaivism and their struggle with each other, influence of numerous 3rd way guru's whose ever adapting versions of Hinduism that influenced the situation over the time.
When I was wondering about how to go about this, I came across one of the Mind matters show, the guest talked about splitting the situation into mythological, philosophical, theological, historical and so on. I decided to stick to the mythological portion and possible cosmological event with the clues of long duration small scale plasma activity depicted as a arrows of the battle( we grew up watching Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan). Though I thought it is a silly way of going about it and there is no other clues and it looks it has some validity.

After C's "close enough" comment, I decided to drop the subject, but one thing bugged me is this - If the Indo-Aryans are Semi-nomadic pastorilists, they can't be vegetarians. How did it happen?

This reminded me "The myth of Holy Cow" book mentioned in the forum and decided to read it. The author D.N.Jha, a Delhi University history professor who got death threats over this book, laid out his argument that earlier veda's or its derivative versions brahmanas, aranyakas , upanishads (500 BC) or even Mahabharata( 400 BC) allowed meat eating and first sign of ban on beef eating started in Gupta period in 400 A.D. The theory is not even his and he added few chapters from B.R. Ambedkar's hypothesis as appendix. I was FASCINATED by B.R. Ambedkar's theory. This 180 degree switch from beef butchering to cow worshipping is EXTRAORDINARY even to the modern day identity politics of India (or any where).

This led me to 'what else Ambedkar said'. I thought I will read 1 or 2 books/booklets, but it went into more than a dozen and no where near completion. It was shocking to read the quotes of these Hindu scriptures on social hierarchy and FASCINATING at the same time about his brilliant logic. His extraordinary intellect in pulling out few needles in haystack and connect the dots while addressing (supporting or criticizing) every other theory existed about Hinduism's insanity towards its subjects. This opened a door that is always there, but didn't know it existed. Of course, I haven't shown interest either until recently either.

I was fascinated by his depth of knowledge (every aspect of life - scriptures, relevance to comparative society/religion/law etc. ), his meticulous research, ruthlessness in showing the mirror for all other versions/researches, clarity in pointing out the myriad intricacies ( like Jordan B Peterson)

I will write more in the next post.
 
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