Understanding Hinduism and Hindu Gods

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
B.R. Ambedkar

B.R. Ambedkar is a well known figure in India whose legend can only be compared to M.K.Gandhi but he rarely comes up in Western media. He was a student of American scholar/philospoher John Dewey. Even to this day, no Indian political party(with their eye on vote bank politics) can dare to touch him, though they can dare to criticize Gandhi.

But, he fought with Gandhi big time, leader of the Dalits (Untouchables /Scheduled castes/Harijans as Gandhi called), first law minister(though he is anti-congress), was father of Indian Constitution, considered father of Indian financial system. He is famous(or infamous depending on observer) for reservations for the underprivileged/backward classes in education, govt. jobs and so on. This is very well known part. But, what is NOT widely known is his work on Hinduism. It is mind blowing though it can only produce Shame rather than pride.

In the end, he said 'He was born as Hindu, but will not die as a Hindu' and searched all religions and decided to convert it to Buddhism with his Half million followers in 1956. Here is a short summary of the man

Here is his theory (and others in this line of research) on the origins of Hinduism as I understand it as of now.
A study of the Chaturvarnya must in its turn start with a study of the ninetieth Hymn of the Tenth Mandala of the Rig Veda— a Hymn, which is known by the famous name of Purusha Sukta.What does the Hymn say? It says[2]:
1. Purusha has a thousand heads, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side enveloping the earth he overpassed (it) by a space of ten fingers.
2. Purusha himself is this whole (universe), Whatever has been and whatever shall be. He is
the Lord of immortality, since (or when) by food he expands.
3. Such is his greatness, and Purusha is superior to this. All existences are a quarter to him; and three-fourths of him are that which is immortal in the sky.
4. With three-quarters, Purusha mounted upwards. A quarter of him was again produced here. He was then diffused everywhere over things which eat and things which do not eat.
5. From him was born Viraj, and from Viraj, Purusha. When born, he extended beyond the earth, both behind and before.
6. When the gods performed a sacrifice with Purusha as the oblation, the spring was its butter, the summer its fuel, and the autumn its (accompanying) offering.
7. This victim, Purusha, born in the beginning, they immolated on the sacrificial grass. With him the gods, the Sadhyas, and the rishis sacrificed.
8. From that universal sacrifice were provided curds and butter. It formed those aerial (creatures) and animals both wild and tame.
9. From that universal sacrifice sprang the rik and saman verses, the metres and the yajus.
10. From it sprang horses, and all animals with two rows of teeth; kine sprang from it; from it goats and sheep.
11. When (the gods) divided Purusha, into how many parts did they cut him up? What was his mouth? What arms (had he)? What (two objects) are said (to have been) his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahmana was his mouth, the Rajanya was made his arms; the being called the Vaishya, he was his thighs; the Shudra sprang from his feet.
13. The moon sprang from his soul (manas), the sun from the eye, Indra and Agni from his mouth and Vayu from his breath.
14. From his navel arose the air, from his head the sky, from his feet the earth, from his ear the (four) quarters; in this manner (the gods) formed the worlds.
15. When the gods, performing sacrifices, bound Purusha as a victim, there were seven sticks (stuck up) for it (around the fire), and thrice seven pieces of fuel were made.
16. With sacrifices the gods performed the sacrifice. These were the earliest rites. These great powers have sought the sky, where are the former Sadhyas, gods.

The Purusha Sukta is a theory of the origin of the Universe. In other words, it is a cosmogony. No nation which has reached an advanced degree of thought has failed to develop some sort of cosmogony. The Egyptians had a cosmogony somewhat analogous with that set out in the Purusha Sukta. According to it[3], it was god Khnumu, ' the shaper,' who shaped living things on the potter's wheel, "created all that is, he formed all that exists, he is the
father of fathers, the mother of mothers... he fashioned men, he made the gods, he was the father from the beginning... he is the creator of the heaven, the earth, the underworld, the water, the mountains... he formed a male and a female of all birds, fishes, wild beasts, cattle and of all worms." A very similar cosmogony is found in Chapter I of the Genesis in the Old Testament. Cosmogonies have never been more than matters of academic interest and have served no other purpose than to satisfy the curiosity of the student and to help to amuse children. This may be true of some parts of the Purusha Sukta. But it certainly cannot be true of the whole of it. That is because all verse of the Purusha Sukta are not of the same importance and do not have the same significance. Verses 11 and 12 fall in one category and the rest of the verses fall in another category. Verses other than II and 12 may be regarded as of academic interest. Nobody relies upon them. No Hindu even remembers them. But it is quite different with regard to verses 11 and 12.
  • Initially there is only 3 Varna ( Warrior( Kshatriya), Priest(Brahmin) and Merchant(Vysya or Bania). But the struggle for dominance won by brahmins relegated Warrior class to Shudra's as lowest class. But they are NOT untouchables. It happened during vedic period-( before 500 BC) - written in 'Who were Shudra' book.
  • Brahmin rituals during Vedic period demanded sacrifice of something to ward off evil and blessing of gods. It varies from Humans( yes, it is humans), animals and agricultural products. There is insane amount of ritual process in this.
  • Buddha was social reformer ( 550 BC- 450 BC) who opposed this brahmin sacrifices that is crippling common man, came up with Buddhism, converted many victims(including brahmins) and it's peak reached Mauryan empire (322 BCE-184BCE) when Emperor Ashoka (272 -232 BC) converted to Buddhism . He called it Revolution in his book "Revolution and Counter Revolution in Ancient India".
  • According to D.N. Jha, Counter revolution started after Mauryan empire ( 200 BC)and around this time social hierarchies started popping up (Brahmins at the top) in the form of Manusmriti.
  • By Gupta period 300-500 A.D, Hinduism is in serious decline and people are not willing to do costly sacrifices (like cow, bufallo etc.). This is when Brahmin's took 180 turn became Cow worshippers and Vegetarians. As a intellectual class they have influenced on the Gupta Kings to severely punish people who kill cow. The meaning of 'Killing of Cow is equivalent of Brahmin' takes political meaning. Gupta's are only northern part empire. - From "THE UNTOUCHABLES WHO WERE THEY AND WHY THEY BECAME UNTOUCHABLES ?"
  • According to Chinese visitors, India is divided into 5 parts at that time ( south, east, west, north, central) and 50 kings ruled these areas. So not all are united empire like in Mauryan empire.
  • Brahmanical Hinduism Destroyed all the educational universities of Buddhism and made themselves sole custodians of education.
  • Then came, Muhammadans and destroyed any thing and every thing what they called belongs to 'Infidels'. Though M.K.Gandhi tried normalized it with 'Hindus and Musalman as brothers', that animosity never went away and reflected in Hindu, Muslim rivalry( irrespective of residence - Pakistan or India). Ambedkar wrote Chilling account of how Muslim rulers treated Hindu's in the book "Partition of India" arguing for separate Pakistan nation.
Control System

This region is never been one united front though there are periods it is united land - Mauryan period 250 BC , Mgohul period (1600 AD) and British period (1900 AD) and after. Ambedkar's books hints at the control mechanism following:
  • Before Indo-Aryan entry ( 1200-1700 BC), there are Dravidian kingdoms speaking pre-Tamil languages. But, Brahmanical writers monopolized it with Sanskrit and purged all the traces of it. written in Ancient Indian commerce.
  • After Indo-Aryan entry (call it cultural invasion), they forced their Sanskrit on the population, who ever doesn't speak Sanskrit called them Dravidians and they are the people of South India.
  • Brahmin used their services (called Upanayana or thread ceremony) as a marker for people's eligibility to the jobs and finance. - Sort of modern day certifications/degrees etc.
  • They monopolized who can read Veda's. Only Brahmins can read Veda's, Vaisya's can read it ONLY under the guidance of Brahmin's. Sudra's can't even read. They made insane laws like Sudra's can't accumulate the wealth. Punishments are severe. Worst of all, it is ONLY HEREDITARY. No redemption.
  • Slavery does exist different part of world like in Rome and other places, But India is the only place in the world, it is hereditary.
  • Though numerous Hindu Kings exist ( 200 BC to 1000 AD), Most of them shuttled between different different religions between Buddhism, Hinduism or Jainism. There is no clear evidence of Brahmanical allegiance during this period. But being intellectuals, every rulers needs them, while others are made to depend on them. Being educated people they can travel different places for employment and influence the politics of that place. Probably like Jews of today.
  • How did they influence kings? Well, it is simple. Each king needs publicity that takes format of Vedic or Puranic rituals with all sorts of pomp , sacrifices, chants and so on. They get all sorts of donations for temples, lands to support temples. All sorts of people with all sorts of backgrounds conquered lands though they were NOT Kshatriya ( list is too long). Kings bribe them to branded as Kashitriya race with all the pomp ceremonies. Before 500 BC, these ceremonies includes ritual slaying of 1000's of animals and humans in some cases. In terms, it is like our modern day media.
  • According genetic analysis 70 generations passed with endogamy became part of tribal structure , whether one followed Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or Islam. It is 1500 years ( 23 years/generation) or 2000 years ( with 29 years). Some how it became of core structure. '70 generations ago, caste stopped people inter-mixing' | India News - Times of India
  • The first temples with complex architecture is built by Buddhists ( Ajanta ) not Hindu's. Hindu's later copied it from Buddhists over the ruins of it or materials from it or simply copied some where else.
  • Around and Post Gupta period,( 500 BC) Hinduism proponents destroyed Lot of Budhist universities Buddhist shrines were 'massively destroyed' by Brahmanical rulers: Historian DN Jha The current Hindu, Muslim shrine destructions only talk about Muslims, but they don't talk about Hindu destruction of Buddhist shrines and ultimate removal of it from India.
The obvious question is how does 90% of the Hinduism survived with this insanity. In a way, they did and they didn't survive as it is. Before Independence, we have expected 4000 castes ( un-survived part), every body looking after their interests with Endogamy (survived part). And we have almost 1000 years of foreign rule allowed people stuck to their tribal survival mindset.

I created a small site to put quotes of books I was reading for further research. One can search and see the actual contents of the themes mentioned above.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Here is a Video on Ambedkar's legacy , his fight with Gandhi and so on. This will give some insight on C's comment on Gandhi.
2011-06-11
Q: (L) So they would be kind to animals only if it suits them. (Ark) But I understand that our hero Gandhi was vegetarian and yet he cared about human beings. (Perceval) Was Gandhi an organic portal?

A: Gandhi "cared" about the human cattle like himself.


11:36 Ambedkar's journey
50:46 his vision for India, Industrialization.
56:40 his views on Islam, racism, Jihad
1:23:10 Relation with Gandhi
1:40:06 Moplah massacre
1:47:47 views on caste system and varnashrama system.

Moderators can change the title of the thread to "Understanding Hinduism and Hindu Gods" .
 

sid

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
@seek10 , there's a fair bit to unpack on Indian history and the books you mentioned seem like good ones to pick up next. Unfortunately, not enough funding has been reserved in India towards archeology which would provide the actual facts and corroboration of data. Until then, we are only left with mythologies and distorted texts. In the absense of concrete data, I generally approach the history with Collingwood in mind.

On the topic of cow worship, I thought Velikovsky has a good explanation i.e. post the destruction from the "seven passes". The way Venus appeared to be bull-like when observed from the particular vantage point, it led to an overnight change in attitudes, likely capitalised upon by the priests of the time. Where bull/cows were being farmed and killed for meat pre-change, the priests forced it upon the populace to start worshiping cows to appease Venus. The story of the holy cow, Kamadhenu can be considered to be based on this decisive event.

On the topic of Buddism, its needs a bit more research as it has been suggested by the author, Anand Neelakantan in Ajaya: Roll of the Dice that the Mahabharata war was indeed a ruse to destroy Buddhism and its proponents who were flourishing in Northern India, well supported by Suyodhana, the prince of Hastinapur (modern Delhi). It was essentially, a North vs South war, with great losses on both sides. It is difficult to decipher whether a war even took place or it's just a grand fictional tale concocted to hide multiple skirmishes and/or mass murders conducted on Buddhist monasteries and its followers.

In terms of how the C's have answered my question, my understanding is more towards the natural events, not so much the characters involved and/or the stories. I had assumed that the Indian epics were written with material taken from Odyssey and/or other ancient texts brought over to India by the Aryans. If they were written independently then, they would only be describing the natural events expressed via certain symbology i.e. larger than life human characters, and the interplay of natural forces depicted as human conflicts etc. Take the characters of Sita and Draupadi as an example. Both seem to have emerged from the Earth with no documented mothers, the events surrounding them seem very improbable, if not impossible. To me, they represent the lightning tower for the abuse women would have been subjected to, the destruction of the archetype of "Mother", the feminine being subjugated by the masculine. Either that or they have been inserted in the stories with the intention of destroying the feminine. Similar thinking can be applied to other characters and a better understanding begins to emerge automatically. fwiw
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
In terms of how the C's have answered my question, my understanding is more towards the natural events, not so much the characters involved and/or the stories. I had assumed that the Indian epics were written with material taken from Odyssey and/or other ancient texts brought over to India by the Aryans. If they were written independently then, they would only be describing the natural events expressed via certain symbology i.e. larger than life human characters, and the interplay of natural forces depicted as human conflicts etc. Take the characters of Sita and Draupadi as an example. Both seem to have emerged from the Earth with no documented mothers, the events surrounding them seem very improbable, if not impossible. To me, they represent the lightning tower for the abuse women would have been subjected to, the destruction of the archetype of "Mother", the feminine being subjugated by the masculine. Either that or they have been inserted in the stories with the intention of destroying the feminine. Similar thinking can be applied to other characters and a better understanding begins to emerge automatically. fwiw

I think maybe the Aryan influence and the worship of masculine gods was a natural tendency for the Aryans whether found in the Greek, Roman or Indian civilizations.

Session 8 April 2000:
Q: One of the interesting things about this Northern civilizational factor is that one of the hallmarks of the Aryan attitude is the Male dominated religion. When did the masculine religion "take over?" Was this always the tendency or leaning of the Aryan group?

A: Involves more than religion. Religion is the facilitator.

Q: Facilitator of what?

A: Customary psycho/social habitue.

Q: Customary to whom?

A: Those whom you refer to as Aryans.

Q: Where did they acquire the "habit" of a masculine oriented religion? Everybody else was worshipping the goddess in one form or another. But this male dominated theology was the distinguishing characteristic of the Northern peoples. Where did they come up with this.

A: Originated on home planet.

Q: Kantek?

A: For all intents and purposes.

Q: Was it this male dominated religion that contributed to the destruction of Kantek?

A: No.

Q: Okay, when they were on their home planet, why did they develop a masculine religion as opposed to a feminine one, considering the fact that women are the source of life, in certain terms?

A: In your density, masculinism/feminish is essentially a roll of "the dice." Remember, at higher levels gender is nonexistent.

The gender aspect I think can be a double-edged sword considering the gender wars we are having today.

Session 29 December 2018:
(Joe) Putin ate my lunch! Is the promotion in Western society of a hostile attitude towards traditional masculine qualities part of a broader nefarious plan?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Is part of that to try and make a generation of weak men?

A: Yes


Q: (Joe) Is that with a view to some kind of post 4D transition scenario or something like that, or is it more of a takeover on 3D?

A: More a reflection of desired relationship between 4D STS and humanity.

Q: (L) So in other words, they want to get into doing anal probes. [laughter]

A: Not far off! Dominance over the normal male.

However the dominance is achieved it is still domination. The religious lies inserted and corruption of the original texts sometimes destroys the good qualities and replaces them with ones that help create a submissive and more easily controlled population.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
In short, as more we go throughout myths more we can see them as an amalgamation of events of different “periods” which have worked ultimately to retain our mental status in the 3D universe. By the way, scholars have often compared Mahabharata and Ramayana to the work of Homer —Ramayana indeed is termed the ‘Iliad of the East’. Then, for a moment, we could wonder that Homer derives from the Indian tales, but more likely, as I see, is that those western and eastern mythical sagas represent similar events of distinct mental environs that involve, in particular, transitional densities. And again, for a last example, the “monkey” Hanuman personage of Ramayana/Mahabharata has notable counterpart settled in Chinese background, as well as, then ”possibly” even in our western arts.
@OutSky thank you for your posts and the way you see possible connections to the sessions and the mythical and magical aspects of many historical and esoteric writings.

The "amalgamation of events" question was brought up by @sid in the following session and seems to confirm the concept of many accounts from different cultures' viewpoints that describe the same events often occurring at the same "time" but use their own unique understanding of science and forms of expression.

Sesson 18 December 2021:
(Sid) What was the real motivation behind the mythological Indian texts of Mahabharata and Ramayana?

A: Record events of great significance.

Q: (L) Okay. And the second part of the question:

(sid) Are there any factual events or just adaptations of Odyssey, etc?

A: Odyssey was part of the same phenomenon.

Q: (L) So the Odyssey was another group of people recording the same sort of events?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) But recording it in their particular way?

A: Yes.


Q: (L) So, you don't have to say that one was the derivation of the other - just that there was something significant enough going on for people to get upset about it and write about it in the only way they could. They didn't have the scientific language that we have. They had to write about things in the way that they were able.

I think the above may account for the parallels often noticed in the historical myths and religions on a worldwide scale.
 

OutSky

Jedi
In short, as more we go throughout myths more we can see them as an amalgamation of events of different “periods” which have worked ultimately to retain our mental status in the 3D universe. By the way, scholars have often compared Mahabharata and Ramayana to the work of Homer —Ramayana indeed is termed the ‘Iliad of the East’. Then, for a moment, we could wonder that Homer derives from the Indian tales, but more likely, as I see, is that those western and eastern mythical sagas represent similar events of distinct mental environs that involve, in particular, transitional densities. And again, for a last example, the “monkey” Hanuman personage of Ramayana/Mahabharata has notable counterpart settled in Chinese background, as well as, then ”possibly” even in our western arts.

@OutSky thank you for your posts and the way you see possible connections to the sessions and the mythical and magical aspects of many historical and esoteric writings.

The "amalgamation of events" question was brought up by @sid in the following session and seems to confirm the concept of many accounts from different cultures' viewpoints that describe the same events often occurring at the same "time" but use their own unique understanding of science and forms of expression.

Sesson 18 December 2021:
(Sid) What was the real motivation behind the mythological Indian texts of Mahabharata and Ramayana?
A: Record events of great significance.

Q: (L) Okay. And the second part of the question:
(sid) Are there any factual events or just adaptations of Odyssey, etc?
A: Odyssey was part of the same phenomenon.

Q: (L) So the Odyssey was another group of people recording the same sort of events?
A: Yes.

Q: (L) But recording it in their particular way?
A: Yes.


Q: (L) So, you don't have to say that one was the derivation of the other - just that there was something significant enough going on for people to get upset about it and write about it in the only way they could. They didn't have the scientific language that we have. They had to write about things in the way that they were able.

I think the above may account for the parallels often noticed in the historical myths and religions on a worldwide scale.
Hmm, close but not the same. So, in any case, just for the benefit of further clarification:

See, @sid made interesting questions —if I understood correctly— while asking whether some tales (Mahabharata et al) are derived from Homer, or else they are distinct events, though carrying certain similarities. And then afterwards Laura came closer to my assertions seen in this thread.

So, the thing is that my post brought up —supposedly— a primary particular, which sets in place that different events carry the same dramas, and in due course are conflated into our current perception of reality. Also, there I hinted, or recalled, that those "similar events" can somehow be singly “visited” in specific sectors of our consciousness.

Although somewhat missing completeness, let’s say in few words: those analogous events can be occurring at different “moments” and yet those “moments” occur at the same “temporal lock”. Thus what really distinguishes one of another is our mental tuning directed to each of them.​

Ascending_and_Descending.jpg

Ascending and Descending — MC Ascher​
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Hmm, close but not the same. So, in any case, just for the benefit of further clarification:

See, @sid made interesting questions —if I understood correctly— while asking whether some tales (Mahabharata et al) are derived from Homer, or else they are distinct events, though carrying certain similarities. And then afterwards Laura came closer to my assertions seen in this thread.

So, the thing is that my post brought up —supposedly— a primary particular, which sets in place that different events carry the same dramas, and in due course are conflated into our current perception of reality. Also, there I hinted, or recalled, that those "similar events" can somehow be singly “visited” in specific sectors of our consciousness.

Although somewhat missing completeness, let’s say in few words: those analogous events can be occurring at different “moments” and yet those “moments” occur at the same “temporal lock”. Thus what really distinguishes one of another is our mental tuning directed to each of them.​

Perhaps "similar events" and the "same dramas" are referring to the possible interference with events caused by what the Cs talked about in the following session early on:

Session 22 October 1994:
Q: (L) Well, if we are sources of food and labor for them, why don't they just breed us in pens on their own planet?

A: They do.

Q: (L) Well, since there is so many of us here, why don't they just move in and take over?

A: That is their intention. That has been their intention for quite some time. They have been traveling back and forth through time as you know it, to set things up so that they can absorb a maximum amount of negative energy with the transference from third level to fourth level that this planet is going to experience, in the hopes that they can overtake you on the fourth level and thereby accomplish several things. 1: retaining their race as a viable species; 2: increasing their numbers; 3: increasing their power; 4: expanding their race throughout the realm of fourth density. To do all of this they have been interfering with events for what you would measure on your calendar as approximately 74 thousand years. And they have been doing so in a completely still state of space time traveling backward and forward at will during this work. Interestingly enough, though, all of this will fail.

Q: (L) How can you be so sure it will fail?

A: Because we see it. We are able to see all, not just what we want to see. Their failing is that they see only what they want to see. In other words, it's the highest manifestation possible of that which you would refer to as wishful thinking. And, wishful thinking represented on the fourth level of density becomes reality for that level. You know how you wishfully think? Well, it isn't quite reality for you because you are on the third level, but if you are on the fourth level and you were to perform the same function, it would indeed be your awareness of reality. Therefore they cannot see what we can see since we serve others as opposed to self, and since we are on sixth level, we can see all that is at all points as is, not as we would want it to be.

I can see that one might question what is a real/true "event" considering all the manipulation that may be involved but I tend to think that there were at least significant common events that did occur and were recorded by the Greek, Roman and Indus Valley civilizations from their own perspectives.

More recently an event that most of us would consider to be quite real was the 911 destruction of the twin towers and surrounding buildings.

This example shows that some "events" are possibly creations that are manufactured in great detail.

Session 13 October 2001:
Q: (L) Well, we ordered a micron filter for the air unit just in case! (A) I would like to ask about how this building collapsed and why. There is more and more discussion about it, and theories are flying. (L) Well, let's ask again just to be clear. Were the WTC buildings collapsed by internal sabotage, or simply as a result of being hit by jets?
A: Airplanes.

Q: (L) There was no internal sabotage?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What caused the buildings to collapse?
A: Structural weaknesses.
Q: (L) We watched one film that showed a strange, dark object, shooting down towards the ground. What was that?
A: 4th Density energy surge.

Q: (L) Where was it surging from and to?
A: Dome of destruction energy time lock to ground.
Q: (L) Are you saying that there was a dome of a time lock over this area? Do you mean that they put a "time lock" over this area so that they could "harvest" bodies or energy?
A: Close.
Q: (BT) Was there any other purpose besides harvest?
A: Gathering records, gold, soul extraction, he said.
Q: (L) What does "he said" mean?
A: Journeyman.
Q: (L) Who or what is a "journeyman?"
A: Informant.
Q: (L) So there is a "journeyman" who is the informant from whom you obtained the information regarding the question?
A: 4th Density STO observer.
Q: (L) What did they want the gold for?
A: 4th density uses gold for technology.
Q: (BT) Well, that is in many myths about the "gods" mining gold in antiquity. (L) Were they gathering records in the sense of material objects?
A: Partly.
Q: (L) Might these records also have been an extraction of "records" from people as they were dying?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) For what purpose did they intend to use the souls that were extracted?
A: Remolecularization.
Q: What will they used these remolecularized beings for?
A: Insert them back into building to escape and be rescued.
Q: (L) Are you saying that this was an opportunity used as a very traumatic screen event of a mass abduction, so to say?!
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What was done to these people who were abducted? Was there a specific reason for a mass abduction?
A: Turn on the programs.
Q: (TB) So, those who "escaped" are very likely programmed individuals turned loose in our society. People with programs set to make them run amok at some point?
A: Close.

We could gather from the above that we are not only in a 74,000 year "time loop" but additionally a "time lock" was implemented while this "dome of destruction" was set in place. I think this may be similar to what one could call a "temporal lock".
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
B.R. Ambedkar

B.R. Ambedkar is a well known figure in India whose legend can only be compared to M.K.Gandhi but he rarely comes up in Western media. He was a student of American scholar/philospoher John Dewey. Even to this day, no Indian political party(with their eye on vote bank politics) can dare to touch him, though they can dare to criticize Gandhi.

But, he fought with Gandhi big time, leader of the Dalits (Untouchables /Scheduled castes/Harijans as Gandhi called), first law minister(though he is anti-congress), was father of Indian Constitution, considered father of Indian financial system. He is famous(or infamous depending on observer) for reservations for the underprivileged/backward classes in education, govt. jobs and so on. This is very well known part. But, what is NOT widely known is his work on Hinduism. It is mind blowing though it can only produce Shame rather than pride.

In the end, he said 'He was born as Hindu, but will not die as a Hindu' and searched all religions and decided to convert it to Buddhism with his Half million followers in 1956. Here is a short summary of the man

Thank you @seek10 for bringing B.R. Amedkar to our attention. It really seems like he "cared" for the Dalit of India perhaps even more than Gandhi and in perhaps on a deeper intellectual level than Gandhi.

Here is a Video on Ambedkar's legacy , his fight with Gandhi and so on. This will give some insight on C's comment on Gandhi.
2011-06-11

I especially liked the following video segment:

1:23:10 Relation with Gandhi


I created a small site to put quotes of books I was reading for further research. One can search and see the actual contents of the themes mentioned above.

Origins of Hinduism - Quotes

Quotes from Source material
sites.google.com
sites.google.com
I think you have put a tremendous amount of work into understanding the complexities of India's history, civilizations and religions. I have had many questions answered thanks to your efforts. The quotes are a great reference source.

I hope others will take the time to look at your posts in more detail. I have discovered details I would have otherwise missed. The Caste System of India is perhaps one known to me but unknown in any personal way. While there are other similar systems such as Feudalism the Caste System of India seems to have been more based on religion than just social rank etc.. I hope the suffering endured under such systems one day comes to and end.
 

Voyageur

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
For some time, there are news item that gave weightage of Dvapara Yuga concept for non believers based on archeological digs. As per Mahabharata, Krishna (Vishnu's incarnation in that age ) dies just before end of the world and the place ( Dvaraka in the state of Western Gujarat) he dies goes under the water.

Again, there are claims and counter claims of the dates and speculations when Dvaraka drowned in the water leaving aside embellishments each religion tend to contain. Some dates for this Dvaraka( Dwaraka) used were around 3600 BC , 1500 BC and so on. Here is a review video that goes into claims, counter claims, agenda's of claims/counter claimants and the need for more digging and testing and so on.
But the Vedic kingdoms that are in epic are Kuru (1200 BCE - 500 BCE according to wiki) and Panchala (1100 BCE- 500 BCE as per wiki)only ranged from 1500 BC to 800 BC. Another city that mentioned in the epic Indraprasta ( Modern Day New Delhi ) also have archeological evidence of painted grey ware (PGW) that dated back to 1100 BCE- 800 BCE.
To get some perspective of it, I used the History of India video and put it in a sheet to make sense of timelines. Naturally, timelines are slightly different from different main stream sources, but one thing is common all the vedic kingdoms started AFTER Indu's valley civilization ( 3300 BCE - 1300 BCE). According to C's, the city of Indus valley civilization existed until 1100 BCE - October 20, 1994

Thanks for the thread seek10.

Had a look at the video. Interesting that Hancock pops up in this (a much younger Hancock), and the film rebuttals either what people don't want to see or what people want to see - at one point (to further exploring), it was said that academia was no longer interested related to both the Gulf of Khambhat and Dvaraka (off shore). The sea rise indicates 6 meters in the later, to 40 meters in the former, the Gulf of Khambhat. Hancock reaches for the Younger Dryas ties to lost civilizations, and yet based on sea rise, much may have been lost we might never know.

Here seemed to be Hancock's again in the original History Channel about these places (although from the Gulf of Khambhat first to Dvaraka, while it's the reverse in the film you posted).

This reminded me of C's comment of Parantha's. C's also mentioned about 50,000 year old nuclear war between invading Aryans and Local Parantha's.

Are there any Physical evidence ( of cosmic) that can prove some thing in 3rd Millenium around the area that can give some clues. I came across a video talking about the 3 mile asteroid that have crashed in to Indian ocean around 2800 BC ( called Burckle Crater) that created V shaped Chevron sediments in Madagascar and Australia. This crater is located 930 miles south east of Madagascar and it is a 18 miles structure and 13K meters under water.

The reason looking here in the first place was that, by search accident, had come across what looked to be a reference from Specimens of the Hindû Theatre related to weapons. These were of the "Purânas and the Mahâbhârata—the Âgneyâstra or “fiery weapon,”' said Blavatsky (with some iffy-ness about her) referring to the book mentioned. Well it was not there in the book, and why a book about theater anyway (or could not find it or it has an citation error).

As an aside to Purânas, Laura cites this article.

As for the Mahâbhârata, it is discussed in session (your link above near the start), here posted again:

(Sid) What was the real motivation behind the mythological Indian texts of Mahabharata and Ramayana?

A: Record events of great significance.

Q: (L) Okay. And the second part of the question:

(sid) Are there any factual events or just adaptations of Odyssey, etc?

A: Odyssey was part of the same phenomenon.

Q: (L) So the Odyssey was another group of people recording the same sort of events?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) But recording it in their particular way?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) So, you don't have to say that one was the derivation of the other - just that there was something significant enough going on for people to get upset about it and write about it in the only way they could. They didn't have the scientific language that we have. They had to write about things in the way that they were able. Now, Aeneas - speaking of The Odyssey and all those Greek stories:

Whatever the case, had never read this type of description of these old weapons before (part material part something else). Here is how in The Secret Doctrine (1893) - The Synthesis of Science, Religion, and Philosophy Blavatsky quotes it (note it's on page 666 too :whistle: - that's Blavatsky for you?):

Seven is also the great magic number. In the Occult Records the weapon mentioned in the Purânas and the Mahâbhârata—the Âgneyâstra or “fiery weapon” bestowed by Aurva upon his Chelâ Sagara—is said to be constructed of seven elements. This weapon—supposed by some ingenious Orientalists to have been a “rocket” (!)—is one of the many thorns in the side of our modern Sanskritists. Wilson exercises his penetration over it, on several pages in his Specimens of the Hindû Theatre, and finally fails to explain it. He can make nothing out of the Âgneyâstra, for he argues:

"These weapons are of a very unintelligible character. Some of them are occasionally wielded as missiles; but, in general, they appear to be mystical powers exercised by the individual—such as those of paralyzing an enemy, or locking his senses fast in sleep, or bringing down storm, and rain, and fire, from heaven.1519... They are supposed to assume celestial shapes, endowed with human faculties.... The Râmâyana calls them the sons of Krishâshva.1520"

The Shastra-devatâs, “Gods of the divine weapons,” are no more Âgneyâstras, the weapons, than the gunners of modern artillery are the cannon they direct. But this simple solution did not seem to strike the eminent Sanskritist. Nevertheless, as he himself says of the armiform progeny of Krishâshva, “the allegorical origin of the Âgneyâstra weapons is, undoubtedly, the more ancient.”1521 It is the fiery javelin of Brahmâ.

The seven-fold Âgneyâstra, like the seven senses and the seven principles, symbolized by the seven priests, are of untold antiquity. How old is the doctrine believed in by Theosophists, the following Section will tell.

The last part, javelins, is more in line with other mentions on this thread - comets from the gods, which lines up in many other areas, yet the manmade kind discussed being used in the area long ago was interesting, again "mystical powers exercised by the individual—such as those of paralyzing an enemy, or locking his senses fast in sleep, or bringing down storm, and rain, and fire, from heaven. ... They are supposed to assume celestial shapes, endowed with human faculties..."
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The last part, javelins, is more in line with other mentions on this thread - comets from the gods, which lines up in many other areas, yet the manmade kind discussed being used in the area long ago was interesting, again "mystical powers exercised by the individual—such as those of paralyzing an enemy, or locking his senses fast in sleep, or bringing down storm, and rain, and fire, from heaven. ... They are supposed to assume celestial shapes, endowed with human faculties..."
The nuclear aspect of the sanskrit accounts was mentioned by the Cs.

Session 16 October 1994:

Q: (L) What is the origin of the books of Enoch?

A: Sanskritian society in area now referred to as India.

Q: (L) What evaluation can we give the books of Enoch as far as level of truth?

A: 50% of area was destroyed in nuclear conflagration in between

Q: (L) In between what?

A: Then and now in the expanded present.

Q: (L) What is the "expanded" present?

A: The real measure of time.
The vedas may be related to the book of Enoch and the battles described there I think.
 

Mr.Cyan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks seek10 for the great research and the other forum members who contributed to the research. My knowledge on ancient Indian/subcontinent history was patchy at best - and the this thread really helped fill in the gaps for me. Thanks again :-)
 

givi

The Force is Strong With This One
The entire spiritual heritage of mankind has no value. This is a menu with no real food behind it. This is a publicity stunt. All this resulted in hypocrisy and mercantilism. There is something fundamentally false in this. If there is something good, nothing bad can come out of it. Religions are false, obviously. Everything is false - religion, spirituality, society, you, your property, your motives and values, everything in general.

Forget the rosary, scriptures, shake off the ashes from your head. You need to be saved from the very idea that you need to be saved. You need to be saved from saviors, freed from liberators. When you realize the absurdity of your search, the whole culture will turn to ashes for you, ashes within you. And then you will be free from all this. The tradition no longer exists for you. The games are over. Vedanta means the end of knowledge, so why write some more sacred books, open some more spiritual schools, keep some teachings? Ash means that whatever you desire is burned within you. When you don't know anything, you have a lot to say. When you know something, you have nothing to say.
 

givi

The Force is Strong With This One
1. All roads lead to Mind.
2. The mind created God in its own image and likeness.
3. Everything is so much the other way around.
4. Each is given according to his obscurations.
5. Whatever a person does not talk, he always talks about himself.
6. Man is a religious animal.
7. Dreams make a person insane.
8. Freedom is a convenient form of dependency.
9. The farther Closer, the closer Farther.
10. Only beggars and beggars take everything from life.
11. Suffering is the denial of Reality.
12. Only slaves can need freedom.
13. Even demons can be enlightened.
14. Nothing happens in the center of the cyclone.
15. All questions are born out of fear.
16. The sufferer is always blind, he can only see his own pain.
17. Only slaves of their illusions can have their own interests.
18. We were born to turn a fairy tale into dust.
19. Love your Shadow.
20. Both emptiness and non-emptiness consist of the Void.
21. To see things as they are is to see their empty essence.
22. The most insignificant thing in a person is the feeling of his own 23. To love yourself is to overcome the boundaries of your ego.
24. How many people, so many delusions.
25. True Love is like the Sun. It shines to everything from Nothing.
26. The flow of thoughts cannot be stopped, but one can go beyond the limits of thoughts, bringing them to the point of absurdity.
27. Self-development can only be with the ego.
28. Whoever observes creates.
29. Trust your feelings - feed the Beast.
30. Everything must be Nothing in a person.
31. Ego is the inability of a person to see himself Otherwise.
32. Everything is neither good nor bad. Everything is in its place.
33. To forgive another is to stop thinking about him all the time.
34. Everything is in the reliable hands of the Void.
35. Ego always begins with the body.
36. For all answers there will always be questions.
37. Never confuse your feelings with your balls.
38. The real game starts when you stop playing.
39. Where there is desire, there is not love, but hunting.
40. My madness protects me.
41. It's hard to be God. One has to visit the lunatic asylums of human hearts every day.
42. The dead dreamed that they were alive and died.
43. Everyone is so different that they are the same.
44. Suffering means thinking only about yourself all the time 45. Man grows deep into his Absence. This is its growth and development.
46. As you wish, so be it.
47. If you make your madness a reality, then you can overturn eternity.
48. In Reality there is neither knowledge nor ignorance.
49. In the Void there is neither life nor death.
50. People have two tales in life: about me and about me.
51. Making a lot of noise does not mean living.
52. That which exists only as a created thing does not exist and cannot exist as a Superexistent. But that which exists as the Superexistent can also exist as the created, while remaining the Superexistent.
53. Everything that does not exist exists; and everything that exists does not exist.
54. Only the dead die.
55. Neither to be nor not to be.
56. Personality is determined by the breadth of its illusions.
57. Suffering is man's favorite toy.
58. To be yourself is to be empty.
59. "Is there life before death?" - that is the question.
60. Each person has his own unique inner world. It's like a pot in a manger.
61. Everything that is not Emptiness is a pose.
62. You need to be disappointed in a person in order not to think badly about him anymore.
63. Mindfulness is a rare form of addiction.
64. It is always easier for a smart person to explain that he is a fool.
65. Delusions are always the most sincere.
66. An inflated ego bursts faster.
67. There is no time and space in here and now.
68. Sometimes people think so much that it becomes their objective reality.
69. Love is not a feeling; it is a victory over feelings.
70. I think, therefore I do not exist.
71. Do not interfere with what should happen.
72. Whoever has a goal will lose himself in it.
73. Man can do nothing.
74. Neither this nor that. This and that.
75. All is One in its Absence.
76. Hell is when you cannot forgive yourself.
77. Inside is outside, and outside is inside.
78. The mind is overcome through paradoxes.
79. Man is created by his illusions.
80. If you look into the Abyss for a long time, you can see yourself
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The entire spiritual heritage of mankind has no value. This is a menu with no real food behind it. This is a publicity stunt. All this resulted in hypocrisy and mercantilism. There is something fundamentally false in this. If there is something good, nothing bad can come out of it. Religions are false, obviously. Everything is false - religion, spirituality, society, you, your property, your motives and values, everything in general.
I agree in most of the what you wrote in some sense. Almost every 2 year child asks - "Where did I come from?". Most probably he will receive a pre-canned answer- from mummy's tummy, which is not wrong but it is not every thing. If something is wrong and if it survived, there has to be lot of layers of misinformation layered as truth. The questions that needs to be asked and figured out are What are those layers, who made them, under what circumstances they were created. These are essential for not repeating it.

If something survived means there are some beneficiary (in subjective sense), that beneficiary will resist, making it difficult to find it. It is a process. If there is some order (say free will in 5D before birth) exist in the world for its continuance, we need to know that order. It is obvious that religions did a bad job of delivering that order.
Forget the rosary, scriptures, shake off the ashes from your head. You need to be saved from the very idea that you need to be saved. You need to be saved from saviors, freed from liberators. When you realize the absurdity of your search, the whole culture will turn to ashes for you, ashes within you.
Fair enough.
And then you will be free from all this.
The tradition no longer exists for you. The games are over.
I am not sure how I can be free when I don't even know what happened.
Vedanta means the end of knowledge, so why write some more sacred books, open some more spiritual schools, keep some teachings?
Different take on Vedanta. Vedanta (Anta means ending)is same as Upanishads. At some point in time 600 BC - 100 BC , Upanishadic sects opposed ritual proponents of Veda's saying Veda's are from un-manly people. At that time, Veda's are sold as knowledge. But, there are many sects claiming Veda's are BS. But, the politics of (differing sects in Hinduism, Hinduism vs Buddhism) is a long story and it happens, ritual gang won by writing puranas and so on. From Riddles in Hinduism by B.R Ambedkar
RIDDLE NO. 8
HOW THE UPANISHADS DECLARED WAR ON THE VEDAS?

What is the position ofthe Upanishads in relation to the Vedas? Are the two complimentary to each other or are they antagonistic? Of course, no Hindu would admit that the Vedas and Upanishads are repugnant to each other. On the contrary, it is the common belief of all Hindus thatthere is no antagonism between them and that both form part and parcel ofthe same single system of thought. Is this belief well-founded?

The principal reason for the rise of such a belief is to be found in the fact that the Upanishads are also known by another name which is called Vedanta. The word Vedanta has got two meanings. In one sense, it means the last parts of the Vedas. In the second sense, it means the essence of the Vedas. The word Vedanta being another name for the Upanishads, the Upanishads themselves have come to acquire these meanings. It is these meanings which are responsible for the common belief that there is no antagonism between the Vedas and the Upanishads.

To what extent are these meanings of the word Upanishads justified by facts? In the first place, it is well to note the meaning of the word Vedanta. What was the original meaning of the word Vedanta?

Does it mean the last book of the Vedas? As observed by Prof. Max Muller *: [Page: 83 The Upanishads (S.B.E.) Vol. I. Introduction, p. I.XXXVI] "Vedanta is a technical term and did not mean originally the last portions of the Veda, or chapters placed, as it were, at the end of a volume of
Vedic literature, but the end i.e., the object, the highest purpose of the Veda. There are, of course, passages, like the one in the Taittiriya-aranyaka (ed-Rajendra Mitra p. 820), which have been misunderstood both by native and European scholars, and where Vedanta means simply the end of the Veda: yo vedadu svarah prokto vedante ka pratishthitah, ' the Om which is pronounced at the beginning of the Veda, and has its place also at the end of the Veda.'

Here Vedanta stands simply in opposition to Vedadu, it is impossible to translate it, as Sayana does, by Vedanta or Upanishad. Vedanta, in the sense of philosophy, occurs in the Taittiriya-aranyaka p. 817, in a verse of the Narayania-upanishad repeated in the Mundak-upanishad III 2, 6 and elsewhere vedantavignamuniskitarah, 'those who have well understood the object of the knowledge arising from the Vedanta ' not from the last
books of the Veda
and Svetasvatara-up VI-22, vedante paramam guthyam, 'the highest mystery in the Vedanta'. Afterwards it is used in the plural also, e.g., Kshurikopanishad, 10 (bibl. Ind. p. 210) pundariketi Vedanteshu nigadyate, ' it is called pundarika in the Vedantas" i.e., in the Khandogya and other Upanishads, as the commentatorsays, but notin the lastbooks of each Veda."'


Ash means that whatever you desire is burned within you. When you don't know anything, you have a lot to say. When you know something, you have nothing to say.
This is little too nihilistic for me and if i say this to my kid, I would be responsible for his unstable base. I can be honest in saying this is what I know and this is what i don't know. That gives hope and if he/she wants to pursue , he/she can do it.
 
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