What is the general stance here about this...?

Danny

Jedi
Earlier this year,during or shortly after the New Year a report came out about population on a local news channel.Statisics show-so they claimed-that on this whole planet a person dies every 11 seconds and a person is born every 8 seconds.I'm not sure how I feel about that because I certainly don't like seeing someone or hearing about someone dying.BUT on the other hand isn't that a little distressing if that statistic is true?Are they just feeding us a bunch of baloney?Is there a such thing , in your minds, as breeding too much?What are the thoughts about that here?
 

ark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Danny said:
Earlier this year,during or shortly after the New Year a report came out about population on a local news channel.Statisics show-so they claimed-that on this whole planet a person dies every 11 seconds and a person is born every 8 seconds.I'm not sure how I feel about that because I certainly don't like seeing someone or hearing about someone dying.BUT on the other hand isn't that a little distressing if that statistic is true?
What is distressing you? Number 11? Which number would you accept (if any) as non-distressing?
 

Snowalker

Padawan Learner
Hey Danny,

My thoughts on this issue are that people will make decisions that are in alignment with their path when they seek the truth within themselves. Our world is populated mostly with those who do not seek the truth within themselves and therefore their choices reflect that. People who are out of sync with their surroundings, separated from nature and afraid of knowing their true selves tend to make choices that are detrimental to their best interests.

Having many children is seen as a survival mechanism by many who are poor. I am not talking about native peoples who are much more in tune with themselves and their environment, I'm talking about those who have bought into the lie of separation from nature.

What we are seeing in terms of population growth is a symptom of everything we talk about on this site. Yes it is sad, yes it is destructive and yes it is also distressing but the importance of this reality for me is that it underscores the primary purpose of my existence and that is to find the truth that lies within me and to live my life according to that truth. Only in that way can I begin to bring change and spiritual growth to our world.

I see the poverty, the lack of education and the abuse that is the lot of most of the inhabitants of the BBM and I too am sad and distressed. But I try to feel those feelings and then let them go. This frees me up emotionally to learn the truth behind poverty and to share my knowledge and understanding with others. In the end there is no other way to change things.

Hope this helps.
 

Peam

Jedi Council Member
Danny said:
Earlier this year,during or shortly after the New Year a report came out about population on a local news channel.Statisics show-so they claimed-that on this whole planet a person dies every 11 seconds and a person is born every 8 seconds.
I would have thought that was on the low side.

Lets say the current world population is about 6.5 billion. Baring any new longevity tablet, technology, or escape from 3d, all 6.5 billion will probably die in the next lets say120 years.

6.5 billion divided by 120 years then divided by 365 days then 24 hours
Then 60 minutes then 60 seconds
= 1.717 deaths per second

= 18 deaths every 11 seconds.

That’s a VERY rough calculation and very coservative guesstimate imo, as not many people live to be 120.

But maybe that local news channel doesn’t count Iraqi civilian deaths or something?
 

Danny

Jedi
I dont know honestly where they study came from they used . And I like Snowwalker's thing about living within your own truth.I myself am not a parent nor do I intend to.It's not that I don't like children.I just don't believe i have the financial or mental capacity to porperly raise a child to a healthy stable adult.I have the same traits as my father and let's just say we didn't see eye to eye alot to say the least.I love him nonetheless but it wasn't a cakewalk.That right there is my biggest fear.Some people are just made to be parents and I know quite a few and they have my blessings to raise however many they desire in my opinion.But also there is still that tugging drive to also have some margin of respect for the things we are graciously given to us in this 3d state and not overwhelm it with human gluttony.Hope I explained that clearly.I have to admit it is a tricky subject for me .And as far as Ark's question I honestly couldn't come up with a concrete number because that would be like limiting who lives or unnaturally altering the rate by the means in which 6% of this population would do...having no problem accepting the role of "God" so to speak and that's not what I could conciously choose.But are we creating a problem for this earth?
 

Isabel

The Force is Strong With This One
Hi, I'm unable to log out. No matter how many times I click on "logout" I remain logged on. I don't know what my next step should be. This has been the case for about 3 days now - I thought the process was simply "extra slow", but that's not the problem. Please help. Thanks.
 
J

jeremyg

Guest
Isabel said:
Hi, I'm unable to log out. No matter how many times I click on "logout" I remain logged on. I don't know what my next step should be. This has been the case for about 3 days now - I thought the process was simply "extra slow", but that's not the problem. Please help. Thanks.
That happened to me yesterday. Finally I checked the cookies for signs-of-the-times.org, and found that I had two copies of the one named punbb_cookie. I deleted both of them, and could log out immediately. I use Opera; if you do too, right click on any Forum page and go to Edit Site Preferences, then select the Cookies tab. Select the punbb cookies (or just select all of them, it's harmless), click Delete, and click OK.

HTH!
 

Isabel

The Force is Strong With This One
Thank you jeremyg. I found my way to cookies in IE & deleted the lot [no indication re how to do otherwise so far as I could see]. Anyway, successful outcome. Appreciated.
 

Ryan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Danny said:
But are we creating a problem for this earth?
Well, let's try a thought experiment. Rounded up for good measure, the world currently has a surface population of 7 billion. Now, according to the Cassiopedia entry on 'Earth', there are 3.3 billion acres of cropland (a fraction of total arable land, which again is a tiny fraction of total non-submerged land surface). That means each person in the world could currently be given their own 0.47 acres of arable land (approximately).

Factoring technology into this, and I think it becomes obvious that the world could support a heck of a lot more people, especially if we suspect that "hidden" technologies exist that could tap energies that are possibly infinitely abundant in scope. And then imagine what is possible if people began to work together in more harmonious way WITH new technology - overpopulation seems like a pretty ridiculous sort of "problem" to be concerned about.

But the idea that humanity has "destroyed the planet beyond repair" and must be "culled for its sins" seems to be increasingly prevalent these days. But this is nothing but a psychopathic paramoralism intended to justify the deaths of billions. As Lobaczewski put it:
Political Ponerology said:
We can thus formulate a more cautious question: can such a system ever waive territorial and political expansion abroad and settle for its present possessions? What would happen if such a state of affairs ensured internal peace, corresponding order, and relative prosperity within the nation? The over-whelming majority of the country’s population would then make skillful use of all the emerging possibilities, taking ad-vantage of their superior qualifications in order to fight for an ever-increasing scope of activities; thanks to their higher birth rate, their power will increase. This majority will be joined by some sons from the privileged class who did not inherit the pathological genes. The pathocracy’s dominance will weaken imperceptibly but steadily, finally leading to a situation wherein the society of normal people reaches for power. This is a nightmare vision to the psychopaths. Thus, the biological, psychological, moral, and economic destruction of the majority of normal people becomes, for the pathocrats, a “biological� necessity. Many means serve this end, starting with concentration camps and including warfare with an obstinate, well-armed foe who will devastate and debilitate the human power thrown at him, namely the very power jeopardizing pathocrats rule: the sons of normal man sent out to fight for an illusionary “noble cause.�
And "overpopulation" is being set up as one of the "noble causes" for which the sons of normal man are being manipulated to fight and die for.
 

mada85

The Living Force
So, the mortality rate might be one death every 11 seconds or even 1.717 deaths every second.

But maybe we are looking at the wrong side of the question.

Gurdjieff in ISOTM said:
Moreover, it happens fairly often that essence dies in a man while his personality and his body are still alive. A considerable percentage of the people we meet in the streets of a great town are people who are empty inside, that is, they are actually already dead.
If this is the case, what does the death of the physical body actually mean? Maybe death is the disappearance of the last remaining part of the person, after their essence has died. And where does life actually reside? In the body? In the mind? The soul? Should we not be seeking the sources of life within ourselves? In my experience, when I walk around my local town, everyone I see appears to have a kind of grey aura to varying degrees. Perhaps they have 'sold their souls to the devil': the Matrix Control System. I sometimes wonder if I appear the same to them. I can't pretend to be particularly conscious, probably just a tiny little bit more than Joe Average, but that little bit is enough to make me want to run screaming with horror from this world on occasion.

Gurdjieff continues:

It is fortunate for us that we do not see and do not know it.If we knew what a number of people are actually dead and what a number of these dead people govern our lives, we should go mad with horror. And indeed often people do go mad because they find out something of this nature without the proper preparation, that is, they see something they are not supposed to see. In order to see without danger one must be on the way. If a man who can do nothing sees the truth he will certainly go mad. Only this rarely happens. Usually everything is so arranged that a man can see nothing prematurely. Personality sees only what it likes to see and what does not interfere with its life. It never sees what it does not like. This is both good and bad at the same time. It is good if a man wants to sleep, bad if he wants to awaken.
'[...]often people do go mad because they find out something of this nature without the proper preparation[...]' Isn't this exactly what we are trying to do? To prepare ourselves to look into these kind of truths without going mad, and to see the world as it is?

Danny said:
Earlier this year, during or shortly after the New Year a report came out about population on a local news channel. Statisics show-so they claimed-that on this whole planet a person dies every 11 seconds and a person is born every 8 seconds.I'm not sure how I feel about that because I certainly don't like seeing someone or hearing about someone dying. BUT on the other hand isn't that a little distressing if that statistic is true?
For me, this is a reminder of my own mortality. I am going to die, and I have no idea whether reports of life after death have any truth in them whatsoever. Perhaps they are all just channelled New Age disinformation. When my wife died in 1992 I did have an experience an hour or so after her death; I felt that she was hovering about six feet above the body, saying goodbye to me. But since then, I have not experienced anything like that. Our daughter, who is now 18, says she sometimes feels her mother around, but whether that is wishful thinking or not I have no idea.

It has been one of the oldest esoteric paths to remain conscious of one's own death, and in my experience, one of the most difficult. I certainly find it very difficult to really allow myself to know - balls to bone - that I am going to die. I think Don Juan talks about letting death sit on your shoulder. Buddha would send new initiates to meditate at the burning ground for six months. Looking at nature, it seems to me that everything leads to death. The very soil that provides food for us and for all living things is only there because other livings have died and their bodies have decomposed. Yet Fulcanelli states that all generative processes happen in darkness.

Ark said:
What is distressing you? Number 11? Which number would you accept (if any) as non-distressing?
Is it really a question of numbers that is distressing? Or is it more a question of your own mortality? Do these statistics remind you of your own impending death? Our bodies are going to die, and who knows what will happen to our consciousness.

Gurdjieff in ISOTM said:
Your principal mistake consists in thinking that you always have consciousness, and in general, either that consciousness is always present or that it is never present. In reality consciousness is a property which is continually changing. Now it is present, now it is not present.
The question is, will our consciousness be present at the moment of death? Can we hope for anything more than this? As I am writing this post, I keep remembering that I have not remembered myself. I do not know what will happen if I am not remembering myself at the moment of my death. Likewise, I do not know what will happen at the moment of my death if I am remembering myself.

Gurdjieff continues:

And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness. Both consciousness and the different degrees of consciousness must be understood in oneself by sensation, by taste. No definitions can help you in this case and no definitions are possible so long as you do not understand what you have to define. And science and philosophy cannot define consciousness because they want to define it where it does not exist. It is necessary to distinguish consciousness from the possibility of consciousness. We have only the possibility of consciousness and rare flashes of it. Therefore we cannot define what consciousness is.
I think Gurdjieff has defined for us the lifelong art of preparing for death: 'It is necessary to distinguish consciousness from the possibility of consciousness.'

Perhaps we can consider these words of Jesus in the light of what Gurdjieff says about the death of essence.

They saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea.
He said to his disciples, 'Why is he carrying the lamb around?'
They said to him, 'So that he may kill it and eat it.'
He said to them, 'He will not eat it while it is alive, but only after it has been killed and has become a carcass.'
They said, 'It cannot happen any other way.'
He said to them, 'So also with you: seek a place of rest for yourselves, that you may not become a carcass and be eaten.'
from The Gospel of Thomas
If we allow our essence to die, we become food for whatever is hungry...the consumer society, the lizzies, predators of all sorts...
 

ark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
mada85 said:
Is it really a question of numbers that is distressing? Or is it more a question of your own mortality? Do these statistics remind you of your own impending death? Our bodies are going to die, and who knows what will happen to our consciousness.
Do you really need statistics to remember that you are going to die? It may happen to you, to me, any moment. And it is good to remember it ALL THE TIME. Not just when you read statistics, and the next hour you forget it again.

So question is what to do with this understanding? Must it depressing? Look at what castaneda had to say about it:

... Once in a Bandler and Grinder seminar the co-leaders told us to imagine the two of them sitting on our right shoulder and death sitting on our left shoulder. If we were ever in doubt about what to do, we were to look to our right shoulder and ask them what to do. If we were then in doubt about whether or not to take some action, we were to look to our left shoulder and see death sitting there waiting to take us. That would give us the stark reminder that we are human beings and we must act immediately lest death take us before we do. The key point is that we have as free humans the power of our decisions. Here is don Juan teaching Carlos this lesson about death:

[page 184] "A detached man, who knows he has no possibility of fencing off his death, has only one thing to back himself with: the power of his decisions. He has to be, so to speak, the master of his choices. He must fully understand that his choice is his responsibility and once he makes it there is no longer time for regrets or recriminations. He decisions are final, simply because death does not permit him time to cling to anything. . . . The knowledge of his death guides him and makes him detached and silently lusty; the power of his final decisions makes him able to choose without regrets and what he chooses is always strategically the best; and so he performs everything he has to with gusto and lusty efficiency.
....
__http://www.doyletics.com/art/asrart.htm__
Perhaps you can think of it the same way?
 

rylek

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
ark said:
Do you really need statistics to remember that you are going to die? It may happen to you, to me, any moment. And it is good to remember it ALL THE TIME. Not just when you read statistics, and the next hour you forget it again.
Also made me think of Don Juan.

"You have never taken responsibility for being in this unfathomable world," he said in an indicting tone. "Therefore, you never were an artist, and perhaps you'll never be a hunter."
"This is my best, don Juan." "No. You don't know what your best is." "I am doing all I can." "You're wrong again. You can do better. There is one simple thing wrong with you - you think you have plenty of time."
He paused and looked at me as if waiting for my reaction. "You don't have plenty of time," he repeated. "Plenty of time for what, don Juan?" "You think your life is going to last for ever." "No. I don't." "Then, if you don't think your life is going to last forever, what are you waiting for? Why the hesitation to change?" "Has it ever occurred to you, don Juan, that I may not want to change?" "Yes, it has occurred to me. I did not want to change either, just like you. However, I didn't like my life; I was tired of it, just like you. Now I don't have enough of it."
I vehemently asserted that his insistence about changing my way of life was frightening and arbitrary. I said that I really agreed with him, at a certain level, but the mere fact that he was always the master that called the shots made the situation untenable for me.
"You don't have time for this display, you fool," he said in a severe tone. "This, whatever you're doing now, may be your last act on earth. It may very well be your last battle. There is no power which could guarantee that you are going to live one more minute."
Journey to Ixtlan, pp. 108-109
 
M

mwdman

Guest
Danny said:
"I dont know honestly where they study came from they used . And I like Snowwalker's thing about living within your own truth.I myself am not a parent nor do I intend to.It's not that I don't like children.I just don't believe i have the financial or mental capacity to porperly raise a child to a healthy stable adult.I have the same traits as my father and let's just say we didn't see eye to eye alot to say the least.I love him nonetheless but it wasn't a cakewalk." . . . . ."I have to admit it is a tricky subject for me."
A brave admission, Danny. And one I have just made about myself. Divorce for the second time and I am definately the problem, so I am leaving. I think I am one of these "damaged souls" Ms. Laura speaks of.
 
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