When the Body Says "no" - Gabor Mate

itellsya

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Palinurus said:
Thanks for sharing, itellsya.

What struck me as rather odd was the fact that these researchers would limit themselves to natural disasters "...because subjecting pregnant women to stress levels capable of having an epigenetic effect on their children violates medical researchers ethical standards."

What about man-made disasters like war zones, for instance ? What levels of stress and "...objective hardship..." do pregnant women have to endure to the detriment of their offspring in areas like the Gaza strip or in the Ukraine, or you name it anywhere else ?!!

I say this being well aware of the stress and hardship my mother went through while carrying me in the second half of 1944 and early 1945 in the occupied Netherlands during WW II, and of the diverse negative effects I carry with me ever since.

For me personally there need not be any research done to eventually prove whichever detrimental effects, because I've been living them and coping with those all my life.

Plenty of friction to base doing the Work on, though. ;D


I'm sorry to hear that Palinurus. I would expect they limit it to natural disasters because those funding the studies are imperialist nations! - just my guess. A friend of mine grew up during the Serbian 'conflict' (UN bombardment) suffers from night terrors, hyper vigilance - and that's just the obvious effects. So yeah, imagine the suffering the UN inflicted just on Serbias population, for example.

As you say, how this effects us on deeper levels, and how to use it constructively is complex - but there has been some research into it's effects, which i posted a few pages back in the this thread:

(i think it was a bit of a messy post so it's good to repost with a bit of an edit anyway :))

itellsya said:
Pt 2
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G87aUGV5Mok

Note: It isn't Gabor Mate who discusses the 'Dutch Hunger Winter', however in another discussion he does mention the stresses his mother felt in Hungary following WWII, how he concealed his emotions because she had so much to deal with, that led to stresses and emotional blocks, which i believe he states continues to cause problems between him and his wife even today, communication etc.. In a more recent talk (the neuroplasticity) he mentions having an operation and visiting his mother but he hid the fact he was limping 'to protect her' and uses this as an example of unnecessary stress he puts on himself.

Mate: so what makes people susceptible to addiction? The individual and their life experience. Shapes personality and needs but also their very brains and happens in-utero, stressed mothers = children predisposed to addiction.

it's another speaker who states: regarding the Dutch Hunger Winter of 1944 as soon as you are foetus, you are evaluating your environment. Those children who were in their 3rd trimester were effected, you're body learns how menacing the world is, how many nutrients it is receiving, the foetus therefore became very stingy with sugar and fat and stored every bit of it, they were found to be more likely to have high blood pressure, obesity..

[wiki: The Dutch famine of 1944, known as the Hongerwinter ("Hunger winter") in Dutch, was a famine that took place in the German-occupied part of the Netherlands)

Gabor: Stressed animals when pregnant will be more likely to use drugs in labs

Stressed mothers predisposed to addictions, another study offspring more likely schizophrenia.

Prenatal experience have a huge impact on development of human being


*fin*

So it's addressing the effects of war, rather than say, the sounds or action of it. They suffered starvation and the children, by the sounds of it, suffered psychological and/or metabolic disorders due to the deprivations of war.

The main takeaways (i think):

"following WWII... he concealed his emotions " - or it distorted his ability to relate to others.

"Stressed mothers.. another study offspring more likely schizophrenia." - a fracturing of the personality? Due to dissociation?

"Stressed mothers = children predisposed to addiction." - And i guess addiction can take a many and varied form.

Actually, to add. I remember the news coverage after the Japanese Tsunami/Earthquake, and the professionals there were advising multiple ways in which the children will be effected and how it should be treated. But i'm recalling they made a point of saying that children will internalise the stress, on seeing how stressed the parents are, and so to encourage them to do lots of play (during the crisis) and to make it more of an adventure, like, "we're camping". And then to later address the trauma in more therapeutic setting. But they were very insistent on how imperative the timing of it all was, ie. if you delay, the damage to the child will be far worse.
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
But they were very insistent on how imperative the timing of it all was, ie. if you delay, the damage to the child will be far worse.

Thanks for the extra info.

I think one has to be rather very precise with the timing because of the imprint window phenomenon: certain developments can occur only in a somewhat narrow scope of opportunity; once the auspicious occasion has passed by unused, the damage caused by underdevelopment of function or misalignment of structure seems irreparable most of the times. At least that's what I've understood about it.

Laura wrote about the imprint window periods in the Wave books somewhere, if I recall correctly. They exist for genetic development evenly as much as for psychological or physiological growth. Would you miss out somehow on the most opportune moment for any single one of those, you're stuck or arrested in your natural growth cycle. And suffer for it, accordingly.

It's all very biblical really, come to think of it: "There's a 'right time' for everything..." (Ecclesiastes, 3-1).
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Here's the session discussion the imprint window phenomenon:

28 March 2010 said:
Q: (L) We received a question from a reader who wants to ask: "Is homosexuality determined at the early imprinting stage?"

A: In some instances. There are many reasons.

Q: (L) The second part of the question reads: "If not, what determines sexual orientation at an early age?" Well, they just said there are many reasons. Can you list any of those other reasons?

A: Past life influences and more rarely, genetics.

Q: (L) So which of these three reasons is the most frequent?

A: Early imprinting could be said to be marginally most frequent cause.

Q: (Ailén) So you were very close, Laura.

(Perceval) Does the early imprinting case have to do with abuse?

A: Not necessarily abuse as lack of proper input at moments of high susceptibility. Also, in some individuals the sequence of imprint slots is different or not synchronous with the pattern of the majority. In a sense, then, this is genetic though all such individuals do not necessarily develop as homosexuals.

Q: (L) I think that the writer wanted to know is this a condition that can be changed, assuming the individual wanted to change?

A: Not usually.

Q: (Ailén) When you talk about a lack of proper input, I assume then that in some way development is not normal. Does that mean that homosexuals have any impediment to spiritual growth?

A: No, that is not implied.

Q: (L) Well, you know the story of Konrad Lorenz and his ducks. The story is that there is this window of time when the substratum of the duck's psychology is open to receiving the imprint of the mother image. So, these ducks were not exposed to a mother duck, but rather to his boots during that window. They came to see his boots as mother. Forever. These ducks believed that boots were "mother". So what it means is that there are these like… circuit boards… in us where there is a window that opens when they can be written on. Whatever is written on them in that moment is what sets that circuit. It's like a really basic circuit in our makeup. And I think what this means is that these individuals may have either hyper-sensitive circuits, or windows when circuits can be written that were different that other people. Maybe their windows don't open at the same time as the majority of people.

Say for example the majority of people in the first week, they get their mother imprint - probably. Babies that don't get a mother imprint because they are given up for adoption, or there is some kind of extenuating circumstance, they always have this lack because nothing was written in. If they are put in a crib and never nurtured, they never got this imprint. Then the window closes, and whatever was written on that circuit board during that period when the window was open is what is there forever. Okay, so maybe some people's windows open too early, or maybe it opens while they're still really tiny in the hospital and they don't get the imprint of the mother. Or maybe it opens and closes very fast because of their sensitivity. Maybe they get imprinted by the look of the doctor with a mask on his face, or a nurse passing by or a Coke machine.

(Perceval) Maybe whatever the stage is for the imprint of sexuality, maybe it's later and for most people it's at a certain age, but there are some people that for genetic reasons it's earlier or later and so the adults around that person act differently than they would have when the child was younger.

(L) Yes. And when we're talking about something like imprints, you have to take a very specific individual, and then you have to say, "Okay, does this person have..." and then you'd have to ask all these yes/no questions to boil it down. It could be as varied as the number of individuals that exist! And the same for homosexuals. Every one is different. It could be a partial past life cause, there could be a partial imprint vulnerability cause, or even as they said in rare cases a genetic cause.

(Perceval) I wonder what the imprint actually is. What is the actual imprint data? Is it interaction, or words, or treatment by another human being?

(L) Well, let's ask. In a general sense, what is the imprint that determines sexuality for an individual?

A: The pleasant interaction with an adult model at a moment or during the time the imprint window is open in conjunction with the release of specific hormones and brain chemicals.

Q: (Perceval) So you've got a kid, a boy, and if the window is open, then they get more female attention from their mother. But if the window opens later, when the father takes more interest in the boy and starts to treat him "like a man"... like fathers will sometimes chide their sons about things like, "You cry like a little girl" or "Don't be such a little girl", "You gonna wear a dress?", etc. If you had the window open then during that period, and you received that kind of treatment...

(L) In other words, a delayed imprint window.

(Perceval) Yeah, and producing chemicals and being treated that way or laughed at or made fun of, and being made to think that you're a little girl...

(Burma Jones) Though they did say a "pleasant" interaction with adult models.

(Perceval) That's the ideal.

(Belibaste) Usually at what age does this window open?

A: 18 months to 2.5 years.

Q: (Burma Jones) That's a big window.

(L) Yeah, well that's not the whole window, but the range.

(Ark) What I don't understand is why sexuality is not hard wired, and for what reason? It could have been wired like number of legs and then there would be no problem. Everybody this way with two legs and everybody is born heterosexual except with radiation, mutations, blah blah blah. There must be a reason for that, but what is this reason? Why is there this possibility of people being changed in this way that leads to suffering? Or maybe I don't know anything about internal structure.

(Burma Jones) Well, I was wondering if that imprint comes in with an adult model, does that also set the sort of person that you're going to look for to mate with?

A: Yes

Q: (Burma Jones) So maybe it's also to make it so that you will look for a mate within your own "group"? Like setting up the parents early on in life.

A: Control system modification.

Q: (Perceval) It's probably like you were saying, a pleasant interaction with an adult model. So, if it's later than 18 months to 2.5 years...

(L) So if you have an unpleasant interaction, it can really mess you up.

(PoB) Does it mean that somebody can make another person homosexual by specific kind of treatment?

A: Yes.

Q: (Burma Jones) Well, it sounds like if you knew when someone's imprint vulnerability was, and you abducted them and put them with someone that you wanted to pair them with, you could set up the whole imprint for them.

(L) Yeah, you could.

(Perceval) The problem is that the normal window is 18 months to 2.5 years, and then there are people who have delayed windows.

(L) And maybe people who have early windows. So, it's like Sidney Baker talks about our individual physiology in terms of health and how completely individual we are. There are certain patterns for the majority, but still there are ranges. So everybody is really completely individual and different.

(Andromeda) Are they talking here about having a role model of the same sex, or the opposite sex?

A: Opposite generally.

Q: (L) So if you have a pleasant experience with a member of the opposite sex during this moment of imprint, that will set you up to be attracted to members of the opposite sex.

(Perceval) It kind of suggests that a normal person in a normal family with both a mother and father, that baby or small child is going to have interaction with both...

A: It should be noted that the infant is sensitive to pheromone type substances that can trigger the imprint window. That part of the process is "hard wired".

Q: (Perceval) So for girls and boys they're hardwired to be attracted to male or female.

(L) So say a female infant is hardwired to be triggered by the presence of the pheromone of a male, and the interaction is pleasant, then what is supposed to get written to the circuit gets written, and everything is fine. If the pheromone opens the window and what happens in the interaction is extremely unpleasant, then everything gets screwed up. And possibly it could be that if there is some genetic difference in the infant, then maybe they are set up so that the pheromones of a female will open the window. So, there are a number of possibilities here. It's obviously an interactive thing that triggers it, writes the circuit, and whatever.

(Ailén) So the way that some homosexuals are overidentified with being gay, like gay bars and that stuff, that has to be just cultural then...?

A: The gay "movement" is a CIA program incepted by 4D STS designed to set up antipathy, differences, and to identify individuals for purposes of inflicting further suffering.

Q: (L) Huh.

A: It is the soul that counts.

FWIW.
 

beetlemaniac

The Living Force
Mr. Scott said:
Anybody who hasn't read Maté's other book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts should definitely read it.

It's not just about drug addiction, but also the addictive brain chemical processes involved in workaholism, materialism, relationships, emotional issues, etc.

Two thumbs, way up! :thup:

I'm reading that book right now. I just came across this article from Psychology Today "debunking" the work of Gabor Mate -- I think he's trying to point out that childhood trauma is not a cause and that addiction shouldn't be a disease. Peele (the author of the article) seems to be averse to the idea that the 'ghost' of addiction remains in the brain even after the person successfully gets off the drug/behavior. I took a look at his own book on addiction (Recover) and it seems to be a very positivist kind of approach to rehabilitating addiction. I have a feeling that Peele is stuck in a kind of magical positive-thinking paradigm which pushes away the realities of the difficulties in treating addictions. We all have a 'shadow-self' all our lives and I guess it's difficult to acknowledge it.

Just my very rough two cents.

Check the article here: _http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201112/the-seductive-dangerous-allure-gabor-mat

Also - the paper about the ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences) study and how they correlate with various addictive behaviours
_http://www.acestudy.org/files/OriginsofAddiction.pdf
 

itellsya

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Another talk from Gabor Mate. Watched it last night. At a short 40 minutes, It's actually a perfect intro to his work on the stress and disease connection. He again says nothing about diet, but for anyone who wants to share his work, this is an easy and entertaining watch. Similar to his other videos but shorter. He often comments prefers to have more time :)

https://youtu.be/qlHIWXWDuF0?list=PLxyQH-R7WSqUGXRWm6oX3tYQBMZ5V1Stc

Stress is ubiquitous these days — it plays a role in the workplace, in the home, and virtually everywhere that people interact. It can take a heavy toll unless it is recognized and managed effectively and insightfully. Western medicine, in theory and practice, tends to treat mind and body as separate entities. is separation, which has always gone against ancient human wisdom, has now been demonstrated by modern science to be not only artificial, but false. the brain and body systems that process emotions are intimately connected with the hormonal apparatus, the nervous system, and in particular the immune system. Emotional stress, especially of the hidden kind that people are not aware of, undermines immunity, disrupts the body's physiological milieu and can prepare the ground for disease. ere is strong evidence to suggest that in nearly all chronic conditions, from cancer, ALS, or multiple sclerosis to autoimmune conditions like rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease or Alzheimer's, hidden stress is a major predisposing factor. In an important sense, disease in an individual can be seen as the “end point” of a multigenerational emotional process. If properly understood, these conditions can provide important openings for compassion and self-awareness, which in turn are major tools in recovery and healing.

Dr. Maté’s presentation includes research findings, compelling and poignant anecdotes from his own extensive experience in family practice and palliative care, and illuminating biographies of famous people such as athlete Lance Armstrong, the late comedienne Gilda Radner, or famed baseball legend Lou Gehrig. The presentation is based on When the Body Says No, a bestselling book that has been translated into more than ten languages on five continents.

Gabor Maté M.D. is a physician and best-selling author whose books have been published in twenty languages internationally. His interests include child development, the mind-body unity in health and illness, and the treatment of addictions. Gabor has worked in palliative care and as a family physician, and for fourteen years practiced addiction medicine in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside. As a speaker he regularly addresses professional and lay audiences throughout North America. His most recent book, In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction, won the Hubert Evans Prize for literary nonfiction. He is Adjunct Professor in the Faculty of Criminology, Simon Fraser University.

Gabor Maté M.D. is a physician and best-selling author whose books have been published in twenty languages internationally. His interests include child development, the mind-body unity in health and illness, and the treatment of addictions. Gabor has worked in palliative care and as a family physician, and for fourteen years practiced addiction medicine in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside. As a speaker he regularly addresses professional and lay audiences throughout North America. His most recent book, In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction, won the Hubert Evans Prize for literary nonfiction. He is Adjunct Professor in the Faculty of Criminology, Simon Fraser University.
 

davey72

The Living Force
He is also going against mainstream views that many professionals have based their entire carears on. It is only natural that he will come across a lot of naysayers. It says above that he has been practicing addictionmedicine for fourteen years yet i went to see my doctor in Edmonton not that long ago. He is also a repected addiction specialist working in the core of Edmonton. He helped me a lot for many years. I asked him what he thought of gabor mate and he seemed to have a little animosity. I cant remember exactly what he said but basically referred to him as a fly by nighter. Something about these people that do all these things for brief periods and consider themselves experts.
Imo just his philosophy is almost common sense but i think it is not something that will readily be taken in by the medical industry. Unfortunately.
 

Arwenn

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davey72 said:
He is also going against mainstream views that many professionals have based their entire carears on. It is only natural that he will come across a lot of naysayers. It says above that he has been practicing addictionmedicine for fourteen years yet i went to see my doctor in Edmonton not that long ago. He is also a repected addiction specialist working in the core of Edmonton. He helped me a lot for many years. I asked him what he thought of gabor mate and he seemed to have a little animosity. I cant remember exactly what he said but basically referred to him as a fly by nighter. Something about these people that do all these things for brief periods and consider themselves experts.
Imo just his philosophy is almost common sense but i think it is not something that will readily be taken in by the medical industry. Unfortunately.

I think a large part of this is due to the Medical Establishment's Dogma based on a Newtonian mechanistic model- i.e. the body is a machine, and if something goes wrong with it, it should be fixed with drugs, or surgery or radiation. There is no recognition of the interplay of the emotions, the psyche or spirit. The mind is seen as yet something else that needs treatment with drugs- if something is wrong with your mind, go to a psychiatrist (for yet more drugs)! This is why scientists like Rupert Sheldrake, Dr Mate, healing modalities such as vibrational medicine (Homoeopathy, radionics, Orgone therapy, Rife machines etc), and German New Medicine(which interweaves the emotions, psyche and the effects on the body) are demonized by the Medical Establishment.

It is not in the best interests of the Medical Mafia to have people figure out what is causing their aliments and heal themselves. There'd be no visits to the doctor and no selling of drugs! It is funny how science and medicine are almost like a religion (hence the word dogma)- based on blind faith and 'Thou shalt believe!'
 

Matthew

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
This book seems to be coming out on Kindle in the New Year. I have a pre-order on Amazon UK at £4.99 which is a significant saving from the £26.09 list price for the Kindle iteration. I just thought I would point this out in case anyone else is looking to pick this up, like me.
 

Recto

Jedi
I've read this book recently and got many insights into the generational legacy my family left me regarding the mishandling of emotions. I thought I would share them as it is a steppingstone for me in terms of grief and self-understanding. I apologize in advance as it'll be a long post.

My father died of lung cancer when I was 10 years old. At the time I didn't feel any sadness or grief for his death but I did suffer deeply watching my mother being torn apart by grief. I felt a huge burden of guilt for many years for what I perceived was a disturbing (almost amoral) reaction to the loss of a parent. While my father was sick and didn't interact with me much for the few years I can remember being with him, this fact wasn't enough for me to "absolve my sin" so to speak. Subsequently, I spent 10 to 15 years working on my loner attitude, my inability to connect with people and my emotional constipation.

Most of the book contained information relevant to my case, however I believe this excerpt tie things up quite nicely :
p202
Autonomy, however, needs to be exercised in a way that does not
disrupt the social relationships on which survival also depends, whether
with emotional intimates or with important others—employers, fellow
workers, social authority figures. The less the emotional capacity for self-
regulation develops during infancy and childhood, the more the adult
depends on relationships to maintain homeostasis. The greater the
dependence, the greater the threat when those relationships are lost or
become insecure. Thus, the vulnerability to subjective and physiological
stress will be proportionate to the degree of emotional dependence.

To minimize the stress from threatened relationships, a person may
give up some part of his autonomy. However, this is not a formula for
health, since the loss of autonomy is itself a cause of stress. The
surrender of autonomy raises the stress level, even if on the surface it
appears to be necessary for the sake of “security” in a relationship, and
even if we subjectively feel relief when we gain “security” in this
manner. If I chronically repress my emotional needs in order to make
myself “acceptable” to other people, I increase my risks of having to pay
the price in the form of illness.
The other way of protecting oneself from the stress of threatened
relationships is emotional shutdown. To feel safe, the vulnerable person
withdraws from others and closes against intimacy. This coping style
may avoid anxiety and block the subjective experience of stress but not
the physiology of it. Emotional intimacy is a psychological and
biological necessity. Those who build walls against intimacy are not self-
regulated, just emotionally frozen. Their stress from having unmet needs
will be high.

Dr Maté puts forward the possibility of transmitting behaviors from parents to children (much like epigenetics) which got me thinking about what my mother had told me about my father's childhood and personality. He was a very nice person, a jack-of-all-trade with a lot of "friends". He was so nice actually that he had a hard time saying no. By going further back in time, I can add a bit more context. His father (my grandfather) was, according to my mother, "the nicest man she's ever met". He was so nice that in fact he let my grandmother locking up my father (as a child) in the basement as punishment. It definitely had an impact on my father as he was very strict on his children and resented his mother.

He was 13 years older than my mother and I was raised as a single child. Since my mother pushed him to have a child (he didn't initially want another one after 2 marriages and 4 kids), I believe I wasn't much wanted by him and I felt it in some way. I was my mother's child first and foremost and no connection was established between my father and I. His cancer and death shook up our family to the core and my mother barely scraped by emotionally during most of my childhood and adolescence. She had much freedom in her childhood but her mother raised her with an iron fist as she was a business owner 24/7 (not much room for feelings or just being there when needed).

I realize now that my emotional dependence comes from my perception of being abandoned as a child by my mother. Growing up without a father role model stunned my emotional growth and my sense of independence, and left me crippled when facing the "terrifying" outside world and strangers. Finally, I inherited his "niceness" (inability to say no) to a smaller extent. It seems to attenuate over the generations.

While I worked on those problems since middle school, it is a relief to get at least a bit more information/context about the potential factors that may have contributed to my behavioral makeup. For instance, my father's temperament and childhood may have resulted into repressed emotions (mainly anger) which could have provided a breeding ground for his cancer. Or this mysterious disconnection I felt with people throughout my life may be related to the events of my childhood and the upbringing and emotional issues of my parents.

I was, up to that point, overly critical towards parents deciding to have children without having the means (within and without) to "properly" raise them. Now I see that we all have inherited from the mistakes of our parents, and they themselves of their parents (and so on). So with that information we have the opportunity to break the cycle and get things straight. Instead of being cursed at birth, I inherited my ancestors hope of a better future, may their offspring be better than themselves. I gladly shoulder this responsibility as I stand corrected.

Thank you for reading my (very long) post to the end. I only hope that this book helped you as much as it helped me. Thank you Laura for bringing Dr Maté's research up, I'll do what I can to make the best of it and fix myself. Not just for myself or others, but also for those who came before and those that'll come after.
 
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