When the Body Says "no" - Gabor Mate

Laura

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Just came across an interesting passage right at the end of chapter 13 which is about rheumatoid arthritis. This is one of my manifestations of stress though it is well controlled with diet and SOME "environment management". The main thing I did to help myself was learn how to say "no" (which precipitated divorce from my first husband as a by-product - that's what sometimes happens) and certainly, my practice of breathing exercises was helpful to bring about releases which is why this passage is so interesting.

Gabor is talking about a guy with Ankylosing spondylitis; toward the end, there is this exchange between him and the patient:

"I have an advantage over others in terms of expressing anger. I have a command of the language. I never shout at anybody. I don't have to shout because I can put words right through you just by controlling my breathing. One of the good things about AS is that it freezes your ribs, so your ribs are locked in front and back." Robert explains that when people become upset and lose control of their angry responses, they breathe in a very shallow fashion, using the muscles between the ribs to inflate the chest cavity and thus to draw air into the lungs. Because of his AS, he is unable to do that.

"In order to have a stronger voice and more control over the way you speak, you have to breathe with your diaphragm. You don't breathe there - you breathe shallowly and your ribs move in and out. My gut goes up and down because I have to breathe with my diaphragm. There's much more muscle control in the diaphragm than there is over the top of the ribs." It also affords better emotional control and ensures improved oxygen supply to the thinking parts of the brain.

"Before, I had to work at it. As my ribs froze up, I didn't have any choice."

"That's most interesting. Teachers of yogic breathing are always telling us to breathe using the diaphragm. That's the healthy thing to do. Your AS forced you to do that."

"It gives me the power of clarity. You can tell if most people are angry because they shout at you. That's the way, verbally, they can express that they're angry. With my breathing the way it is, I have to speak in shorter sentences, and I can clip words and project my voice rather than yell. Controlling your breathing allows you to control your temper and your anger - and by controlling I mean using it to get to where you want to go."

As Robert spoke, I was struck by the uncanny ability of nature to teach through adult disease lessons that, in a better world, should be learned in childhood and in health.

One study pointed to the intriguing possibility that even the painful inflammation of rheumatoid arthritis could serve a protective function; joint tenderness was significantly related to a decrease in stressful events one week later. "The results have important clinical implications," the researchers concluded. "The dynamic interplay between social-conflict events and joint pain describe a homeostatic system in which negative social interaction is regulated through worsening of the disease."

In other words, the flare-up of disease forced patients into avoiding stressful interactions. The body says no.

Does it ever!
 

stellar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
Just came across an interesting passage right at the end of chapter 13 which is about rheumatoid arthritis. This is one of my manifestations of stress though it is well controlled with diet and SOME "environment management". The main thing I did to help myself was learn how to say "no" (which precipitated divorce from my first husband as a by-product - that's what sometimes happens) and certainly, my practice of breathing exercises was helpful to bring about releases which is why this passage is so interesting.

Gabor is talking about a guy with Ankylosing spondylitis; toward the end, there is this exchange between him and the patient:

"I have an advantage over others in terms of expressing anger. I have a command of the language. I never shout at anybody. I don't have to shout because I can put words right through you just by controlling my breathing. One of the good things about AS is that it freezes your ribs, so your ribs are locked in front and back." Robert explains that when people become upset and lose control of their angry responses, they breathe in a very shallow fashion, using the muscles between the ribs to inflate the chest cavity and thus to draw air into the lungs. Because of his AS, he is unable to do that.

"In order to have a stronger voice and more control over the way you speak, you have to breathe with your diaphragm. You don't breathe there - you breathe shallowly and your ribs move in and out. My gut goes up and down because I have to breathe with my diaphragm. There's much more muscle control in the diaphragm than there is over the top of the ribs." It also affords better emotional control and ensures improved oxygen supply to the thinking parts of the brain.

"Before, I had to work at it. As my ribs froze up, I didn't have any choice."

"That's most interesting. Teachers of yogic breathing are always telling us to breathe using the diaphragm. That's the healthy thing to do. Your AS forced you to do that."

"It gives me the power of clarity. You can tell if most people are angry because they shout at you. That's the way, verbally, they can express that they're angry. With my breathing the way it is, I have to speak in shorter sentences, and I can clip words and project my voice rather than yell. Controlling your breathing allows you to control your temper and your anger - and by controlling I mean using it to get to where you want to go."

As Robert spoke, I was struck by the uncanny ability of nature to teach through adult disease lessons that, in a better world, should be learned in childhood and in health.

One study pointed to the intriguing possibility that even the painful inflammation of rheumatoid arthritis could serve a protective function; joint tenderness was significantly related to a decrease in stressful events one week later. "The results have important clinical implications," the researchers concluded. "The dynamic interplay between social-conflict events and joint pain describe a homeostatic system in which negative social interaction is regulated through worsening of the disease."

In other words, the flare-up of disease forced patients into avoiding stressful interactions. The body says no.

Does it ever!

So true. I was diagnosed with AS a few years ago which mostly affected my lower back and walking abilities. You wouldn't know it today with the KD and Breathing exercises I forget it's there most of the time unless I allow myself to get fooled into stress which I've learned to quickly mend with a resounding 'no, I'm not having any of that'. It does work for me. :thup:
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
[quote author=When the Body Says No]
Pain is also a mode of perception. Physiologically, the pain pathways channel information that we have blocked from reaching us by more direct routes. Pain is a powerful secondary mode of perception to alert us when our primary modes have shut down. It provides us with data that we ignore at our peril.
[/quote]
 

Laura

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obyvatel said:
[quote author=When the Body Says No]
Pain is also a mode of perception. Physiologically, the pain pathways channel information that we have blocked from reaching us by more direct routes. Pain is a powerful secondary mode of perception to alert us when our primary modes have shut down. It provides us with data that we ignore at our peril.


[/quote]

Indeed. And the same is true for psychological pain. So, when people do everything they can to avoid it, or suppress or repress it, they deprive themselves of a tool for navigating reality effectively.
 

Laura

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Another passage dense with implications relevant to the "highly sensitive person" thread (and more):

Gabor Mate said:
We do not all mirror one another in how we are physiologically affected by social and interpersonal stressors or other external pressures. What, apart from inborn temperament, accounts for these individual differences?

A key factor is emotional development. Should {a} child ... require a further operation at twenty-five, she will no longer need her mother and father to hold her hand while the anaesthetic is administered. She will have enough self-regulation that neither her neurotransmitter activity nor her stress hormones would go out of balance without her parents' immediate proximity. We cannot take it for granted, however, that with chronological adulthood we automatically attain emotional independence. At any age, our responses to potential stressors are deeply influenced by the degree to which our emotional functioning continues to be dominated by our attachment needs, fears and anxieties.

According to the family systems theory articulated by the late American psychiatrist Dr. Murray Bowen, illness is not a simple biological event in a separate human being. A family systems view recognizes the moment-to-moment interrelatedness of the physiological functioning of individuals. Self-evident in the relationship of mother and fetus, this physiological interrelatedness does not end with birth or even with physical maturation. As we have seen, relationships remain important biological regulators throughout a whole life.

A fundamental concept in family systems theory is differentiation, defined as "the ability to be in emotional contact with others yet still autonomous in one's emotional functioning." The poorly differentiated person "lacks an emotional boundary between himself and others and lacks a 'boundary' that prevents his thinking process from being overwhelmed by his emotional feeling process. He automatically absorbs anxiety from others and generates considerable anxiety within himself."

The well-differentiated person can respond from an open acceptance of her own emotions, which are not tailored either to match someone else's expectations or to resist them. She neither suppresses her emotions nor acts them out impulsively. Dr. Michael Kerr... distinguishes between two types of differentiation: functional differentiation and basic differentiation. The two types may superficially appear to be identical, but from the perspective of health and stress they are worlds apart.

Functional differentiation refers to a person's ability to function based on his relationships with others. For instance, it may be that I can do my work well only when other people - my employees, my spouse, my children - can absorb my unresolved anxieties by putting up with my bad temper, unreliable habits, lack of emotional engagement, even abusive behaviour. Were they to reject the roles I assign them, I might fall apart. That would be an example of functional differentiation. On the other hand, if my ability to function is independent of other people's having to do my emotional work for me - that is, if I can remain engaged with others while staying emotionally open to them and to myself - then I would be said to have basic differentiation. The less basic differentiation a person has attained, the more prone he is to experience emotional stress and physical illness. {...}

Greater differentiation means better health. {...}

The less powerful partner in any relationship will absorb a disproportionate amount of the shared anxiety - which is the reason that so many more women than men are treated for, say, anxiety or depression. (The issue here is not strength but power: that is, who is serving whose needs?) It is not that these women are more psychologically unbalanced than their husbands, even though the latter may seem to function at higher levels. What is unbalanced is the relationship, so that the women are absorbing their husband's stresses and anxieties while also having to contain their own.

We recall that Nancy, wife of a man with ulcerative colitis, was exasperated at the stress triggered for her by her husband's obsessive an rigid controlling attitudes. (Chapter 10). Tim's disease has been in reasonable control over the years. Nancy has effectively absorbed much of his anxiety, but at her own expense. Nancy is now being treated for depression and anxiety and says she is nearing the end of her rope. "It has felt like I have another child," she says, "because he is very high maintenance. I now understand that I have four children I have been responsible for. I'm the parent for both of us. I've repressed my emotional needs for a very long time, without realizing it. It's frightening to think now that I wasn't even aware of that, until I had a mini-breakdown." If Nancy lets go of her one-sided nurturing role in the relationship, Tim may experience a flare-up of his colitis - unless he learns to take more emotional responsibility for himself.

The partner who must suppress more of his or her own needs for the sake of the relationship is more likely to develop physical illness as well - hence the greater incidence, for example, of autoimmune disease and of non-smoking-related cancers among women. "The existence of a mind-body link and a person-person link means that it is possible for an anxiety in one person to be manifested as a physical symptom in another person," Dr. Kerr writes. "As is the case with the emotional dysfunctions, the one prone to develop symptoms is the spouse who adapts most to maintain harmony in the relationship system."

Nature's ultimate goal is to foster the growth of the individual from absolute dependence to independence - or, more exactly, to the interdependence of mature adults living in community. Development is a process of moving from complete external regulation to self-regulation, as far as our genetic programming allows. Well-self-regulated people are the most capable of interacting fruitfully with others in a community and of nurturing children who will also grow into self-regulated adults. Anything that interferes with that natural agenda threatens the organism's chances for long-term survival. Almost from the beginning of life we see a tension between the complementary needs for security and for autonomy. Development requires a gradual and age-appropriate shift from security needs toward the drive for autonomy, from attachment to individuation. Neither is ever completely lost, and neither is meant to predominate at the expense of the other.

With an increased capacity for self-regulation in adulthood comes also a heightened need for autonomy - for the freedom to make genuine choices. Whatever undermines autonomy will be experienced as a source of stress. Stress is magnified whenever the power to respond effectively to the social or physical environment is lacking or when the tested animal or human being feels helpless, without meaningful choices - in other words, when autonomy is undermined.

Autonomy, however, needs to be exercised in a way that does not disrupt the social relationships on which survival also depends, whether with emotional intimates or with important others...

The less the emotional capacity for self-regulation develops during infancy and childhood, the more the adult depends on relationships to maintain homeostasis. The greater the dependence, the greater the threat when those relationships are lost or become insecure. Thus, the vulnerability to subjective and physiological stress will be proportionate to the degree of emotional dependence.

To minimize the stress from threatened relationships, a person may give up some part of his autonomy.... the loss of autonomy is itself a cause of stress. The surrender of autonomy raises the stress level, even if on the surface it appears to be necessary for the sake of 'security" in a relationship, and even if we subjectively feel relief when we gain "security" in this manner. If I chronically repress my emotional needs in order to make myself "acceptable" to other people, I increase my risks of having to pay the price in the form of illness.

The other way of protecting oneself from the stress of threatened relationships is emotional shutdown. To feel safe, the vulnerable person withdraws from others and closes against intimacy. This coping style may avoid anxiety and block the subjective experience of stress but not the physiology of it. Emotional intimacy is a psychological and biological necessity. Those who build walls against intimacy are not self-regulated, just emotionally frozen. Their stress from having unmet needs will be high.

Social support helps to ameliorate physiological stress. The close links between health and the social environment have been amply demonstrated. {...]

For the adult, therefore, biological stress regulation depends on a delicate balance between social and relationship security on the one hand, and genuine autonomy on the other. Whatever upsets that balance, whether or not the individual is consciously aware of it, is a source of stress.
 

Anthony

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This book is also tied to Aleta Edwards - Fear of the Abyss,
for instance she cites one example.

"Lois" came to me complaining of panic attacks. She suffered from agoraphobia, which sometimes prevented her from leaving home, and laughingly told me that she had "a messed up brain." I asked her when these problems began and what was happening at that time. If she was not always like this, why did she think that she had something wrong with her brain? Something must have transpired to cause her to develop the panic in the first place. Lois replied that the panic began when she divorced her physically-abusive husband and moved into her own place a few years earlier. He still came around and wanted her to go places with him. She was afraid to turn him down, and felt guilty that she had divorced him. She developed agoraphobia, which gave her a reason to not have to go with him, and he would then respond by calling her "crazy."

Then after a few sessions with Dr. Aleta;

"I get it! I don’t have to love anyone I don’t want to! My father was a crazy, violent bastard and I married someone just like him - and I hate him, too!" To a large extent, her panic disorder and agoraphobia disappeared from that day forward.

It seems black and white thinking is more dangerous than I thought.
 

Laura

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Yes, thanks Anthony.

Indeed, this book is about a LOT MORE than just illness of the body. What is fascinating is how the body CAN define and describe our internal and external realities. People who manifest the types of illnesses Gabor describes might be what we would call "highly sensitive persons", but even less temperamentally sensitive individuals can eventually break down under chronic stress of various kinds. And even without any of these illnesses manifesting, the sickness of relationships can be understood through these examples. It takes Louise Hay's "You Can Heal Your Body" to an all-new level of understanding.

Gabor said:
{In a troop of Rhesus monkeys}, about 20 per cent are "high reactors" who are more likely than others to exhibit depressive behaviours on separation from mother, along with greater and longer activation of the HPA axis, exaggerated sympathetic nervous system arousal and deeper suppression of immune activity. In human terms, we might call the high reactors temperamentally hypersensitive. Not unlike their human counterparts, they tend to end up at the bottom of the social hierarchy. Their offspring resemble them in behavior, reactivity and social status.

Research has revealed that the "constitutional high-reactor destiny can be interrupted by changing the environment." The positive changes are passed on to future generations: "When reared with especially nurturing mothers, such animals show no signs of the usual behavioural disorder. Instead, the showed signs of precocious behavioural development and rose to the top of the hierarchy as adults. Females adopted the maternal style typical of the especially nurturing mothers.

My suspicion is that the true "highly sensitive person" can be identified better by the fact that they manifest the types of illnesses/conditions that Gabor discusses in this book. They can also be identified by having designed a life around emotional shut-down which, inevitably, will result in illness too.

There is a LOT to be learned about the adaptive unconscious in this book and most importantly, HOW TO READ THE BOOK OF LIFE in the symbol systems of the body and family/relationship dynamics. You can look at the history of your own family and make some predictions about your own future if you do not find ways to "work on the self" and make changes.

In Chapter 16, Gabor turns to the topic of healing such intergenerational damage. It isn't easy, but it can be done; but probably, only the people who can SEE it, who can apply the lessons appropriately, can do this as your example, "Lois", did. Most of it is about threats perceived by the subconscious that stimulate the fight or flight response whether we are aware of it or not. Dealing with the perceived threats appropriately is the healing solution.
 

Lilou

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Thank you for sharing this video, Laura. It certainly is timely for me, as I have not been saying “no” to my boss, who has taken at least 5 weeks vacation in the past 4 months, during our busy season! I have had several 50-55 hr work weeks, been super busy while I was there, some days working thru part of my lunch hour. Not to mention the 1 hr commute in bad weather, which had me staying 5 nights in a hotel during one of his trips. I kept saying yes, telling myself I could really use the extra money.

I started doing EE more, thinking that would fix it all, but truly, I just need to say no. I am taking this as a big wake-up call. As I watched the video, I could literally feel the stress leaving my body, much like the example he gave during his talk, about the relief a stressed out person will experience when someone asks “hey, do you want to talk about it?” This book definitely needs to be at the top of my reading list.
 

shellycheval

The Living Force
Laura quoting Mate
To minimize the stress from threatened relationships, a person may give up some part of his autonomy.... the loss of autonomy is itself a cause of stress. The surrender of autonomy raises the stress level, even if on the surface it appears to be necessary for the sake of 'security" in a relationship, and even if we subjectively feel relief when we gain "security" in this manner. If I chronically repress my emotional needs in order to make myself "acceptable" to other people, I increase my risks of having to pay the price in the form of illness.

The other way of protecting oneself from the stress of threatened relationships is emotional shutdown. To feel safe, the vulnerable person withdraws from others and closes against intimacy. This coping style may avoid anxiety and block the subjective experience of stress but not the physiology of it. Emotional intimacy is a psychological and biological necessity. Those who build walls against intimacy are not self-regulated, just emotionally frozen. Their stress from having unmet needs will be high.

Wow! Mate is knitting together so many important threads regarding the mind-body-emotion connection.
Already in these few excerpts, I see myself and my family and the dysfunctional emotional bondage and physical results we all experienced.

Laura
You can look at the history of your own family and make some predictions about your own future if you do not find ways to "work on the self" and make changes.
(my bold)

"Truer words were never spoken." When I was finally able to end my relationship with Ex 3 seven years ago, one of my biggest motivations for change was recognizing that I had entered into virtually the same lifestyle and relationship situation as my mother found herself in the last ten years of her life--her death-spiral years. It was painful and terrifying to see myself replicating her life. That recognition was part of what gave me the ability to get out and save myself.

I will be ordering this book today. Thanks for the post Laura.
shellycheval
 

Jefferson

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I watched the video in its entirety today and also ordered the book.

This must be kept in mind, especially those of us who are raising kids - I think it is time to re-read Narcissistic Family as well. Goal is to ensure proper emotional hygiene of the children, which starts by looking after oneself.
 

Zadius Sky

The Living Force
I finally got the book yesterday and immediately dive into it. It's very interesting reading and eye-opening to see myself and others in my family in these pages.
 

Chad

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I found the clip from Zeitgeist with Gabor Mate, it also features other speakers. Leaving aside Zeitgeists agenda, that it was made in 2008 and therefore the opinions may have changed (see the tobacco comment!). I think the following clips provide some useful easy commentary on how stress has more of an effect on physiology than is acknowledged; from addiction to suicide to cancer.

Initially they cover addiction and it's origins - stresses in childhood.

'It's genetic'
Pt 1 (10mins)

_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQTMO3bQgpU

"Genes are inevitable and unchangeable is the scientific myth"

Gabor Mate: they say ADHD is genetically programmed, nothing is genetically programmed, handful of diseases are, most are predisposition not predetermination, search for genetic diseases was bunk as aren't predetermined.

Breast cancer many carry gene, and not all those will get cancer.

Other speaker: genes give us different ways of responding, early childhood particularly effects gene expression, like preparing you for the world ahead [such as the Dutch Hunger Winter mentioned below]

Gabor: abuse causes genetic change in brain, an epi-genetic effect,

Another speaker: a comprehensive study from birth to 20's, re: predisposition to violence, only if suffered abused as children, some who had predisposition and yet no abuse were actually lower.

Speaker: Landmark study for memory, take the mice and enrich their environment and they overcome their memory deficit. So to say genetic is to say there's a contribution, readiness, but that's not what we are told. Modern theory is akin to eugenics..

Speaker: the biological explanation for violence, if you believe that then nothing can be done. Lock em up. [perhaps true for psychopathy] But we don't need to change anything in society as it's the genetics....

Mate: Genetic argument is a cop out. Addictions considered to be related to drugs, but actually is any behaviour involving craving and temporary relief; workaholism, addictions to power, oil (social consequences worse than drugs and yet rewarded).

**then he says tobacco kills**

Addicts and denial. What is acceptable is determined by society, drugs are addictive but actually broader sense, nothing is addictive.

Pt 2
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G87aUGV5Mok

Note: It isn't Gabor Mate who discusses the 'Dutch Hunger Winter', however in another discussion he does mention the stresses his mother felt in Hungary following WWII, how he concealed his emotions because she had so much to deal with, that led to stresses and emotional blocks, which i believe he states continues to cause problems between him and his wife even today, communication etc.. In a more recent talk (the neuroplasticity) he mentions having an operation and visiting his mother but he hid the fact he was limping 'to protect her' and uses this as an example of unnecessary stress he puts on himself.
[wiki: The Dutch famine of 1944, known as the Hongerwinter ("Hunger winter") in Dutch, was a famine that took place in the German-occupied part of the Netherlands) it's

Mate: so what makes people susceptible to addiction? The individual and their life experience. Shapes personality and needs but also their very brains and happens in-utero, stressed mothers = children predisposed to addiction.

another speaker who states: regarding the Dutch Hunger Winter of 1944 as soon as you are foetus, you are evaluating your environment. Those children who were in their 3rd trimester were effected, you're body learns how menacing the world is, how many nutrients it is receiving, the foetus therefore became very stingy with sugar and fat and stored every bit of it, they were found to be more likely to have high blood pressure, obesity..

Gabor: Stressed animals when pregnant will be more likely to use drugs in labs

Stressed mothers predisposed to addictions, another study offspring more likely schizophrenia.

Prenatal experience have a huge impact on development of human being


*fin*

------------------

Regarding diaphragm breathing and stress management; i took up EE just as events in my life began to take a funny funny turn. I was familiar with the basics due to studying drama/singing/dance in my youth. At the same time, i had also just been in an 'accident' (motor bike knocked me off my bicycle) and found the capacity of my lungs/diaphragm was restricted due to whiplash like symptoms around that area.

My appreciation for the benefits of diaphragm breathing is now much more. I was almost unable to control my breathing as i had done in the past, and was a shadow of my former self because of it. I really was unable to handle situations which previously may have caused some stress, but my inability to breathe correctly sent the anger shuddering through my body.
It was a pretty dire time to be fair!

edit: video embed fixed
edit 2: i tried both the embed code provided and the blue play button, didn't work so left as link
 

birk

Padawan Learner
Jefferson said:
I watched the video in its entirety today and also ordered the book.

This must be kept in mind, especially those of us who are raising kids - I think it is time to re-read Narcissistic Family as well. Goal is to ensure proper emotional hygiene of the children, which starts by looking after oneself.

Interesting thread. I decided to order all his of Mate`s four books; one of them is called:

Hold On To Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers, examines parenting from the perspective of attachment theory to illuminate the crucial role parents must play in the upbringing of their children. This book was co-authored by Dr. Gordon Neufeld, a developmental and clinical psychologist.

I have not read it but it might be interesting for those of you raising kids. fwiw.
 

Nicholas

The Living Force
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As I was perusing Gabor Mate’s videos I ran across some where he talks about the use of ayahuasca to help people see their emotional experiences as a child on their way to healing themselves from stress and addictions. I was pretty surprised to see this and not sure what to make of this but he is pretty level headed about using this plant. He doesn’t make any grand claims of it being a healing potential but looks at it as more of a tool. I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the forum.

Here are some notes I made during this video:
• He attends two retreats per year held in Mexico
• He started taking ayahuasca after his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction.
• The ceremony involved with the ingestion of ayahuasca can open the heart and lead to connections. He sees how this can help people with stress and addictions.
• His involvement in the ceremony is mainly in the preparation. He doesn’t lead them nor does he claim to be a shaman.
• He adds his therapeutic insights to the process.
• The ceremony he is involved with is led by people steeped deeply in the Shipibo Peruvian Amazon traditions.
• He aids in the preparation and the processing after the ceremony.
• He emphasizes that this is not going to save your life. It takes conscious awareness and work to maintain the connection to yourself. Journaling and meditation helps.
• Ayahuasca is not “the way” to do it, it is just one particular path available to a limited number of people. If you can do it without the plant, so much the better.
• It’s not for everybody and so he screens people before allowing them to participate in the ceremony.


https://youtu.be/jzGNYwHMJ6Y


https://youtu.be/V40nuyeWi_4
 
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Approaching Infinity

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Nicolas said:
As I was perusing Gabor Mate’s videos I ran across some where he talks about the use of ayahuasca to help people see their emotional experiences as a child on their way to healing themselves from stress and addictions. I was pretty surprised to see this and not sure what to make of this but he is pretty level headed about using this plant. He doesn’t make any grand claims of it being a healing potential but looks at it as more of a tool. I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the forum.

I saw him speak at a local library about "In the realm of hungry ghosts" and he talked about ayahuasca there, too. He thinks it can be very good for overcoming drug addiction and disagrees with current laws prohibiting its use in Canada and the States.
 
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