Where Troy Once Stood

rylek

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Where Troy Once Stood: The Mystery of Homer's Iliad & Odyssey Revealed

Laura said:
I'm not sure why it is so expensive. One thing I sort of picked up on was that Wilkens sold the rights to the original publisher who did a run or two and then it went out of print. So, Wilkens, having sold the rights, couldn't do anything about it except to come out with a different edition and self-publish at some considerable expense.
I'm wondering whether this new edition is somehow different and whether it would be better to get the older version? I know this is a really small detail but it crossed my mind and I had to ask:)
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
wiki said:
Cádiz would match the description of Ithaca; There is in the land of Ithaca a certain harbour of Phorcys, the old man of the sea, and at its mouth two projecting headlands sheer to seaward, but sloping down on the side toward the harbour.

It is interesting that a Cadiz newspaper just reported (4-28-12) the following:

google translation said:
http://es.sott.net/articles/show/13372-Silencio-arqueologico-o-que-esconden-en-Cadiz-

Archeological silence

THE history of any city, Cádiz for example, is rewritten every time the archaeologists dive underground to rescue a finding of value. Archaeology is the truest expression of the time machine ever invented, his work, thorough and accurate, to discover how our ancestors were, how they lived, what they spent or how they died, vital information to know our deepest roots. It is so fundamental to the history of a city, such as for Cadiz, that sometimes it is not understood the official silence that usually surrounds a finding, to the extent that archaeologists are prohibited to make statements to the media, they who are the ones who know, if only to provide an initial assessment of their research. It is a silence that seems excessive in a matter which is unquestionably of public and unequivocal historical and cultural interest.
 

dantem

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Psyche said:
...the official silence that usually surrounds a finding, to the extent that archaeologists are prohibited to make statements to the media, they who are the ones who know, if only to provide an initial assessment of their research. It is a silence that seems excessive in a matter which is unquestionably of public and unequivocal historical and cultural interest.
[/quote]

Had a look over those Spanish towns where Columbus is said to have arranged his trip to America. In a town near Cadiz, Palos De La Frontera, the it.wiki says that the surrounding land is very ancient and archaeologists have found presence of Dolmens, i.e. Paleolithic civilizations. Palos was also used as a dock by Columbus.

Now Cadiz is told to be far more ancient than Palos, and Columbus is told to be an 'Initiate'. I just wonder about the possible connections here :cool2:
 

paralleloscope

The Living Force
The book is still as pricey and even unavailable through Wilkens own site, but it seems he made a companion DVD (20£):
_http://www.wvptv.co.uk/troy-the-real-story/troy-the-real-story-dvd.htm

Trivia: Haven't read the book so don't know if he mentions how the french city Troyes fits, but was messing with google earth approximate distance calculation after reading a quote about a message sent from Troy to Mycenae by bonfire messaging, spanning 400 miles, and Troyes fits the 400 miles mark from the projected Cambridgeshire.
 

lostinself

Jedi Master
parallel said:
The book is still as pricey and even unavailable through Wilkens own site, but it seems he made a companion DVD (20£):
_http://www.wvptv.co.uk/troy-the-real-story/troy-the-real-story-dvd.htm

Trivia: Haven't read the book so don't know if he mentions how the french city Troyes fits, but was messing with google earth approximate distance calculation after reading a quote about a message sent from Troy to Mycenae by bonfire messaging, spanning 400 miles, and Troyes fits the 400 miles mark from the projected Cambridgeshire.

Troyes was Mycenae according to Wilkens. He speculates the city was renamed to commemorate the victory over Troy (rather weird concept) or by Franks to emphasize their Troyan origins.

According to more official sources, the city owes its name to the (Celtic) prehistoric people known as Tricasses. Wilkens doesn't mention them. In the catalogue of ships there's an Achaean regiment formed by people called Tricca but Wilkens suggests they lived on the island of Langeland (Denmark).

PS. I wonder if and how this Robb's book will contribute to Wilken's hypotheses...
 

paralleloscope

The Living Force
lostinself said:
Troyes was Mycenae according to Wilkens. He speculates the city was renamed to commemorate the victory over Troy (rather weird concept) or by Franks to emphasize their Troyan origins.
So both the victors and the survivors built a new Troy, respectively Troyes and London (Londinium Troia Nova)?! If I get the reviews right. I wish I had started studying history many years ago.

lostinself said:
According to more official sources, the city owes its name to the (Celtic) prehistoric people known as Tricasses. Wilkens doesn't mention them. In the catalogue of ships there's an Achaean regiment formed by people called Tricca but Wilkens suggests they lived on the island of Langeland (Denmark).

It's an interesting name. From the Illiad:
Those, again, of Tricca and the stony region of Ithome, and they
that held Oechalia, the city of Oechalian Eurytus, these were
commanded by the two sons of Aesculapius, skilled in the art of
healing, Podalirius and Machaon. And with them there came thirty
ships.

Julius Caesar doesn't mention meeting them, and Troyes only becomes known as Augustobona in 27 B.C and in 212 gets the suffix Tricassium (- quite an active place of power it seems, with popes, templars and provisional governments ). Then there's the greek city of Tricca now known as Trikala. Quite confusing... Does Wilkens cite any source for the Langeland claim?
 

lostinself

Jedi Master
parallel said:
So both the victors and the survivors built a new Troy, respectively Troyes and London (Londinium Troia Nova)?! If I get the reviews right. I wish I had started studying history many years ago.
[...]

Julius Caesar doesn't mention meeting them, and Troyes only becomes known as Augustobona in 27 B.C and in 212 gets the suffix Tricassium (- quite an active place of power it seems, with popes, templars and provisional governments ). Then there's the greek city of Tricca now known as Trikala. Quite confusing...

It seems i was mistaken. Wilkens does mention the Tricasses at least in one paragraph but their name is missing from the index. Here's the relevant part retyped:

When Troy in England was destroyed never to be inhabited again, Mycenae was renamed "Troie" (Troy) to commemorate Agamemnon's victory. The name of the local population in pre-Roman times, Tricasses, suggests this, as it comes from tri (trois or troie) and casses (battalion) and because it was precisely the Tricasses who named a small town in southern Italy "Troia" when the Celts conquered Italy in 387 BC. The Romans called the city in Gaul "Augustobona" and later "Treacae" or "Tricassium"[4] after its inhabitans. When the Franks who claimed to be of Trojan origin, conquered Gaul in the 5th century, they restored the city's name to "Troie", spelled "Troye" in the late Middle Ages. In our era Troyes was twice again the seat of France's government for short periods of time. It thus turns out that Argos with its capital Mycenae was the cradle of France and Agamemnon its first king in documented hostory, living around 1200 BC.

At [4] he refers to works of some Ammianus Marcellinus - maybe the latter provides some more clues from the Roman point of view?


Does Wilkens cite any source for the Langeland claim?

Nope. Just some geographical deduction on the verge of guesswork. Tricca = Tryggelev, Ithome = Tommerup (on the island of Fyn), Oechalia = Skaelskor (on Sjaelland).
 

paralleloscope

The Living Force
Thanks for posting the quote lostinself

lostinself said:
parallel said:
Does Wilkens cite any source for the Langeland claim?
Nope. Just some geographical deduction on the verge of guesswork. Tricca = Tryggelev, Ithome = Tommerup (on the island of Fyn), Oechalia = Skaelskor (on Sjaelland).

Still want to get the book when finances allow, but this comes off as quite weak speculation, if the likeness of name is meant to indicate anything. The mentioned hamlets are registered in early middle age. Tryggelev and Tommerup names are thought to derive from inhabitant (chief?) males at the time, (my guess would be at the time of registration).

Now: Tryggelev - Then: Thruggeleue - Official theory: derivation from name Tryggi, old norse for trusty.
Now: Tommerup - Then: Tummæthorp - Official theory: derivation from name Tummi.

Also "the stony region of Ithome" does not match with Tommerup, it would seem to make more sense to look at Norweigian/ Swedish coastlines which are truly 'stony regions'.
 

lostinself

Jedi Master
Large part of the book contains such kind of name-based speculation. In some instances it's really convincing (as in the case of Cambridgeshire/Troy) while in others it seems stretched beyond reasonability. Some associations are more than intriguing, eg. the Belgian city of Zierikzee bearing its name after the goddess Circe.

While reading i got a somewhat involuntary impression that Wilkens has some other, unspecified basis for his hypotheses, maybe something not necessarily qualifying as scientific. He then tries to reconstruct this knowledge (?) on rational foundations that not always come up solid.

But overall, despite the flaws, the book is definitely enjoyable and worth reading. I hope you can get it some time.
 

Merlin

Padawan Learner
There is another Book with a similar theme and it makes an equally engrossing read. It is "Homer's Secret Iliad" by Florence and Kenneth Wood. The authors have followed it with "Homers Secret Odyssey" both equally gripping. The authors have published the notes of Florence's mother, Edna Johnston, schoolteacher and amateur astronomer.

The authors make the claim that (Page 65) Homer wove the three effects of Precession into three Principal strands of the Iliad:-

1. The Fall of the City of Troy is an allegory for the 'Fall' of Ursa Major, the constellation that represents Troy.

2. Battles and duels between the Greek and Trojan Regiments are allegories for the movement of the equinox from one zodiacal constellation to another.

3. The return of Achilles to the field of Battle is an allegory for the appearance n the skies of Greece of the star Sirius c 8900 BC

---------------------
Somehow I find the views of Kansas School Teacher Edna Johnston (b 1916) much more convincing than Iman Wilkens when she asserts that the Iliad and Odyssey took place in the skies above and not on Earth . . .
 

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Laura

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Might want to read "From Hittite to Homer: The Anatolian Background of Ancient Greek Epic" by Mary Bachvarova to round out the picture. https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Homer-Anatolian-Background-Ancient/dp/0521509793

Here there is an explanation for that long puzzling fact that some lines of Homer's Odyssey exactly reproduce lines from the Epic of Gilgamesh.
 

Tristan

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Another SOTT piece that could be related to this topic:

6,000 years ago Aegean farmers replaced hunters of ancient Britain

A wave of migrants from what is now Greece and Turkey arrived in Britain some 6,000 years ago and virtually replaced the existing hunter-gatherer population, according to a study published Monday in the journal Nature.

Scientists examining samples of ancient remains dating as far back as 8500 BC found the dark-skinned foragers who had inhabited the British Isles since the last Ice Age left comparatively little trace in the genetic record after the transition to farming, suggesting there wasn't much interbreeding with the newcomers who arrived around 4000 BC.

By contrast, the same Aegean migrants mixed extensively with local populations when they introduced farming to continental Europe about 1,000 years earlier, according to previous DNA studies.
[...]
 
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