Why the secrecy?

[MrGullible]

I'm having tons of bad stuff happening to me over the past year, and at Laura's recommendation have started reading Gnosis to determine if I want to continue trying to clear my head and head down the fourth way. I have also glanced through Fulcanelli's cathedrals books and some other sources.

So in my readings I have continually ran across mentions of secrecy, hidden teachings, partial knowledge, etc. including the admonition my Fulcanelli at the end of the book to above all keep silent.

This approach of secrecy, past and present, has confused me and I welcome your comments. I understand that one reason is so the control system doesn't start heavy targeting you. But are there other reasons?

Also, here are a couple of things that don't seem to jive with "avoid the control system" as the only reason:

1) Over the past year, I've had tons of bad stuff happen (mentioned in another thread in "What's On Your Mind" -- I don't know how to cross link yet) to me, but all I've been doing is trying some beginner meditation, trying to stay objective / clear headed, and trying to find all the material I can for guidance. I haven't been spreading the word or any such thing to attract attention but it seems like the concentration of bad stuff is suspiciously close to attacks.

2) What about all these secret societies? Presumably from reading Wave series, Adventure series, and posts here there are schools that have and teach the secrets (or some of them). But, I haven't seen anything on the net or news that would indicate any problems that could be "attacks" on these schools and it seems if they know so much and are sharing it they would be under immense attacks.

What is your take on this? Would you help me understand more clearly?

Thanks.

 

[domi]

This approach of secrecy, past and present, has confused me and I welcome your comments. I understand that one reason is so the control system doesn't start heavy targeting you. But are there other reasons?

Yes, external consideration: http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/External_and_Internal_Considering

 

[Beau]

I remember a passage in ISOTM where Gurdjieff talks about why it is essential to not talk about the Work outside of the group. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that for one thing, you could not properly communicate the details of what goes on in such a group, and two, people would misunderstand and misinterpret what you told them. So, in order to avoid the problems that would arise from these two situations, it is best not to talk about it at all. That is a part of external consideration in this situation.

 

[mcb]

1) Over the past year, I've had tons of bad stuff happen (mentioned in another thread in "What's On Your Mind" -- I don't know how to cross link yet) to me, but all I've been doing is trying some beginner meditation, trying to stay objective / clear headed, and trying to find all the material I can for guidance. I haven't been spreading the word or any such thing to attract attention but it seems like the concentration of bad stuff is suspiciously close to attacks.

In my experience, some years are like that. :) 2007 was a doozy for me, as was 2004. But you might want to look for other more direct reasons that this might be happening besides what you have already considered. In other words, if you don't seem to be doing anything that you would expect to provoke attacks, maybe it's not attacks.

2) What about all these secret societies? Presumably from reading Wave series, Adventure series, and posts here there are schools that have and teach the secrets (or some of them). But, I haven't seen anything on the net or news that would indicate any problems that could be "attacks" on these schools and it seems if they know so much and are sharing it they would be under immense attacks.

I remember seeing a number of references to Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum in Laura's writings. I finally read the book last month, and I will never see secret societies quite the same way again. ;)

 

[Smallwood]

1) Over the past year, I've had tons of bad stuff happen (mentioned in another thread in "What's On Your Mind" -- I don't know how to cross link yet) to me, but all I've been doing is trying some beginner meditation, trying to stay objective / clear headed, and trying to find all the material I can for guidance. I haven't been spreading the word or any such thing to attract attention but it seems like the concentration of bad stuff is suspiciously close to attacks.

Maybe you have been doing something important and just not know it? Like becoming ready to apply some of the info you are now coming across?

The question of attack was most outlandish for me personally, since I had never ever experienced anything like that. I've realized now that more I come to understanding of these concepts, the more I can see "signs" of attack vectors adjusting. I've had endured some of them this semester at my school environment, whereas before when I was just toying with the ideas that this forum concerns itself with I had none to occur to me (maybe because I would have taken them as a confirmation). That is, in my experience, when I've started to APPLY knowledge instead of just gathering it, only then the attacks have started.

The idea I'm having and how it relates is that maybe your being (in the sense which Gurdjieff spoke of in ISOTM where he described the two lines of development, that of knowledge and of understanding/"being". I'm not sure if terms were exactly those, but maybe someone can correct me) is more developed and thus has more "muscles" to apply the learned knowledge, whereas I have been mostly just absorbing as much info as I can. Meaning that perhaps the control system chooses to attack individuals who have more potential to develop/"flap their wings" over those who it doesn't deem as as capable.

Then again, IDK I may be completely wrong. Maybe there are "attacks" that aren't really anything more than just extented runs of bad luck. I certainly don't claim to know who you are and what you are capable of. If you decide to go on with The 4th Way, it would sound logical to me that you learn as much as you can about your weak points and how to prevent the attacks from occuring to the greatest possible extent.

2) What about all these secret societies? Presumably from reading Wave series, Adventure series, and posts here there are schools that have and teach the secrets (or some of them). But, I haven't seen anything on the net or news that would indicate any problems that could be "attacks" on these schools and it seems if they know so much and are sharing it they would be under immense attacks.

Perhaps the control system is doing something in the sense that it tries to limit an individual's knowledge about the schools rather than the actions of those schools, so as to not actually increase overt interest or knowledge about these schools. Maybe these schools have a long tradition of knowledge on how to live through most kinds of attacks? Another reason for secrecy. Or I don't know, just a thought.

I think one of the reasons for secrecy that Gurdjieff gave was that if the information is out in the open, it is subject to all kinds of misunderstandings and perversions. And if the pupil must first learn a "secret language" to decipher rest of the text, it can prevent some of those who would use the info for quick-gain purposes from aqcuiring the knowledge it holds.

 

[MrGullible]

Hey domi, thank you for your quick reply.

This approach of secrecy, past and present, has confused me and I welcome your comments. I understand that one reason is so the control system doesn't start heavy targeting you. But are there other reasons?

Yes, external consideration: http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/External_and_Internal_Considering

I've been trying to stay aware of the external consideration points especially because I feel this impulse in conversations to start expounding my view of the truth when people bring up something (politically or otherwise) that is obviously so far off the mark from my perspective. Your reply is a good reinforcement for me to redouble my efforts.

 

[MrGullible]

Thanks for the info, Pinkerton.

I remember a passage in ISOTM where Gurdjieff talks about why it is essential to not talk about the Work outside of the group. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that for one thing, you could not properly communicate the details of what goes on in such a group, and two, people would misunderstand and misinterpret what you told them. So, in order to avoid the problems that would arise from these two situations, it is best not to talk about it at all. That is a part of external consideration in this situation.

Those are good points. Your's and domo's reply also got me to thinking that it is good so that "negative agents" don't have an in-road or opportunity to start twisting the ideas and subtly altering perceptions if they are part of the conversation.

 

[MrGullible]

Thanks, Megan. These are good things to consider.

1) Over the past year, I've had tons of bad stuff happen (mentioned in another thread in "What's On Your Mind" -- I don't know how to cross link yet) to me, but all I've been doing is trying some beginner meditation, trying to stay objective / clear headed, and trying to find all the material I can for guidance. I haven't been spreading the word or any such thing to attract attention but it seems like the concentration of bad stuff is suspiciously close to attacks.

In my experience, some years are like that. :) 2007 was a doozy for me, as was 2004. But you might want to look for other more direct reasons that this might be happening besides what you have already considered. In other words, if you don't seem to be doing anything that you would expect to provoke attacks, maybe it's not attacks.

You could be right on the money with that. They may not be attacks because they aren't having a long lasting emotional impact or changing my views (at least that I can tell) beyond just wearing me down and making me want to lie in the fetal position about once a month :)

One other thought that I had is that they may attacks but may be very deceptive/subtle in that they may be having some other effect I'm unaware of. On the flip side, I'm hoping I'm not somehow a conduit for attacks on them that have resulted in such tragic endings.

2) What about all these secret societies? Presumably from reading Wave series, Adventure series, and posts here there are schools that have and teach the secrets (or some of them). But, I haven't seen anything on the net or news that would indicate any problems that could be "attacks" on these schools and it seems if they know so much and are sharing it they would be under immense attacks.

I remember seeing a number of references to Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum in Laura's writings. I finally read the book last month, and I will never see secret societies quite the same way again. ;)

I will definitely add Foucault's Pendulum to my reading list to get another perspective on this secret society business. Thanks!

 

[MrGullible]

Maybe you have been doing something important and just not know it? Like becoming ready to apply some of the info you are now coming across?

The question of attack was most outlandish for me personally, since I had never ever experienced anything like that. I've realized now that more I come to understanding of these concepts, the more I can see "signs" of attack vectors adjusting. I've had endured some of them this semester at my school environment, whereas before when I was just toying with the ideas that this forum concerns itself with I had none to occur to me (maybe because I would have taken them as a confirmation). That is, in my experience, when I've started to APPLY knowledge instead of just gathering it, only then the attacks have started.

The idea I'm having and how it relates is that maybe your being (in the sense which Gurdjieff spoke of in ISOTM where he described the two lines of development, that of knowledge and of understanding/"being". I'm not sure if terms were exactly those, but maybe someone can correct me) is more developed and thus has more "muscles" to apply the learned knowledge, whereas I have been mostly just absorbing as much info as I can. Meaning that perhaps the control system chooses to attack individuals who have more potential to develop/"flap their wings" over those who it doesn't deem as as capable.

Then again, IDK I may be completely wrong. Maybe there are "attacks" that aren't really anything more than just extented runs of bad luck. I certainly don't claim to know who you are and what you are capable of. If you decide to go on with The 4th Way, it would sound logical to me that you learn as much as you can about your weak points and how to prevent the attacks from occuring to the greatest possible extent.

With regards to your comments on "being", I can intellectually understand the possibility but I haven't considered it and honestly can't really see myself taking that seriously at this point because I am so weak in so many areas.

However, clearing my head out a little is showing me, to some degree, how weak I am in so many areas and so your last point of advice has struck home and I am strongly taking that to heart as something I really need to focus on. I haven't been very successful thus far in finding techniques to strengthen some areas of weakness but I'm searching :)

2) What about all these secret societies? Presumably from reading Wave series, Adventure series, and posts here there are schools that have and teach the secrets (or some of them). But, I haven't seen anything on the net or news that would indicate any problems that could be "attacks" on these schools and it seems if they know so much and are sharing it they would be under immense attacks.

Perhaps the control system is doing something in the sense that it tries to limit an individual's knowledge about the schools rather than the actions of those schools, so as to not actually increase overt interest or knowledge about these schools. Maybe these schools have a long tradition of knowledge on how to live through most kinds of attacks? Another reason for secrecy. Or I don't know, just a thought.

I think one of the reasons for secrecy that Gurdjieff gave was that if the information is out in the open, it is subject to all kinds of misunderstandings and perversions. And if the pupil must first learn a "secret language" to decipher rest of the text, it can prevent some of those who would use the info for quick-gain purposes from aqcuiring the knowledge it holds.

Wow, those are both great thoughts. I'll think on that some more because they haven't sunk in yet but they do make sense. Somehow I have the feeling that there is yet more to it but I have no doubt that is part of the equation.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

There's also this, which I wrote some time ago: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=7256.0

 

[MrGullible]

Hey AI, I just finished reading the thread you referenced. It was very good and very helpful! Given the information in that thread and the responses above, I'm much more comfortable with the idea because it is making sense on several levels.

Thanks for the helpful reference and taking the time to put so much information in that thread.

 

[nemo]

I remember a passage in ISOTM where Gurdjieff talks about why it is essential to not talk about the Work outside of the group. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that for one thing, you could not properly communicate the details of what goes on in such a group, and two, people would misunderstand and misinterpret what you told them. So, in order to avoid the problems that would arise from these two situations, it is best not to talk about it at all. That is a part of external consideration in this situation.

I had that confirmed recently while talking about the forum with an old friend o`mine . I completely messed that one up ! Now I know why he was right (Gurdjieff) ;).
I can consider myself lucky in that I have two - three people in my life with whom I can talk about "these things". Otherwise I`m starting to get the image of being very negative
(while talking about politics/history/ponerology) among acquaintances. I`m becoming aware, that the desire to talk and also my own self-importance might be especially big hurdles for me to overcome.
I`m becoming almost paranoid recently about making the sort of comment I should refrain from. I`m also putting people down (in thoughts) because of their inability to question things.
That seems to be a very strong program: Feeding my predator mind while finding fault in other people. Of course I realize that the fault is mine as well (or actually ONLY MY fault?? - probably, well, certainly).
The wish to find one`s views confirmed and reflected by one`s friends and acquaintances (+endulging in negative thoughts) costs a lot of (wasted) energy.
My question would be: Should one refrain from ANY arguments/discussions altogether, since it`s more often about proving that one is right and therefore more about feeding one`s self importance than anything else?
Approaching Infinity quotes :

One must, therefore, keep silent about one's true convictions if possible.

For me that`s admittedly hard! Makes me feel like being a double agent (leading secret double life).

I know I`ve read some interesting threads in the past dealing with these issues (Ext. Consid. + Strat. Encl.), but couldn`t find them anymore.
Any threads that deal in more detail with these issues are very much appreciated, books also.

edit:nemo: I`d also appreciate a link, where "how to post" is explained. The quote thingy obviously didn`t work. Thank you!

 

[Oxajil]

I had that confirmed recently while talking about the forum with an old friend o`mine . I completely messed that one up ! Now I know why he was right (Gurdjieff) ;).

That's really 'nice' actually. That's how one, if observed correctly etc. can, I think, verify some of Gurdjieff's info, by observing all that happens around you while having Gurdjieff's knowledge in the back of your mind.

I can consider myself lucky in that I have two - three people in my life with whom I can talk about "these things". Otherwise I`m starting to get the image of being very negative
(while talking about politics/history/ponerology) among acquaintances. I`m becoming aware, that the desire to talk and also my own self-importance might be especially big hurdles for me to overcome.
I`m becoming almost paranoid recently about making the sort of comment I should refrain from. I`m also putting people down (in thoughts) because of their inability to question things.

Yes it's quite hard to overcome. Sometimes it's maybe more ''yummy'' to be the way your Observing I, or the I who wants to do Work, doesn't want you to be.
If you need to limit your amount of talk about ''these things'' and you really want to talk about it (which is imo good some times), then perhaps you can share your thoughts on this board instead of talking about it with your friends?

That seems to be a very strong program: Feeding my predator mind while finding fault in other people. Of course I realize that the fault is mine as well (or actually ONLY MY fault?? - probably, well, certainly).
The wish to find one`s views confirmed and reflected by one`s friends and acquaintances (+endulging in negative thoughts) costs a lot of (wasted) energy.
My question would be: Should one refrain from ANY arguments/discussions altogether, since it`s more often about proving that one is right and therefore more about feeding one`s self importance than anything else?

Hmm I'm not sure. I think it's okay to discuss (but I think the right word would be ''debate'' ), as long as you don't share a very big amount of information the other didn't ask for. Sometimes when I'm debating with my friends about these issues, I tell them that they could be right about it. Also as Pinkerton said, people misinterpret one another a lot in a debate (or discussion), they think they are talking about the same thing, while they are not. So if you try to share some information, it's very high possible that the one you are talking to will totally misinterpret it.

Approaching Infinity quotes :
(quote Milosz)One must, therefore, keep silent about one's true convictions if possible.(/)
For me that`s admittedly hard! Makes me feel like being a double agent (leading secret double life).

Haha, ye.
Gurdjieff said something interesting along the lines; when one becomes silent, he will see parts of himself he never has seen before.

I know I`ve read some interesting threads in the past dealing with these issues (Ext. Consid. + Strat. Encl.), but couldn`t find them anymore.
Any threads that deal in more detail with these issues are very much appreciated, books also.

Have you tried the Search function yet? Perhaps you can also find some interesting articles @ http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Main_Page ?

edit:nemo: I`d also appreciate a link, where "how to post" is explained. The quote thingy obviously didn`t work. Thank you!

You wrote ''(quote Pinkerton )'', but you should write: [xquote=Pinkerton] and end with [x/quote] , delete the x and it should work :)

 

[Smallwood]

edit:nemo: I`d also appreciate a link, where "how to post" is explained. The quote thingy obviously didn`t work. Thank you!

You can also always preview your post with 'Preview' which is located below from the field where you write your post, before posting it for others to see. It does show the post in it's final form, complete with links, images and quote fields. I have found it essential.

 

[nemo]

That's how one, if observed correctly etc. can, I think, verify some of Gurdjieff's info, by observing all that happens around you while having Gurdjieff's knowledge in the back of your mind.

That`s how it works, isn`t it?
Almost like science where a number of people follow certain instructions, then sharing their findings.
If the science is right, results would be quite similiar, if followed "by the book".

If you need to limit your amount of talk about ''these things'' and you really want to talk about it (which is imo good some times), then perhaps you can share your thoughts on this board instead of talking about it with your friends?

My experience is that regular posting costs me a lot of time/energy. I`ve written a number of posts over the past few month, but haven`t submitted them. Mostly for time reasons. It takes me quite long to put thoughts on paper, esp. since english isn`t my mother tongue (much better at reading). It`s easier to converse in some kind of social environment. I just realize that "easier" might be a hint: Nothing good comes from "easier". My problem is that I strongly tend to talk about "substantial matters". Small talk or chatting is not my forte and actually can get on my nerves. My whole conversational behaviour seems to be STS-leaning in that regard. So it seems clear that I should put more effort in external consideration. How other people deal with that does interest me much.

So if you try to share some information, it's very high possible that the one you are talking to will totally misinterpret it.

You couldn`t be more right! I had hour long arguments, after which we participants discovered that we all had a slightly different definition of one and the same word! And of course, one often talks about stuff, where one`s knowledge is limited. I wish I could be more humerous (taking myself/topic less serious) during "debates".

External consideration and strategic enclose come up regularly in threads. Most relevant threads probably have misleading headlines.
But I´ll try letting my intuition lead me to relevant posts/threads.

You can also always preview your post with 'Preview' which is located below from the field where you write your post, before posting it for others to see.

Preview seems to work with Firefox. After some research found out how to get those brackets ... all to no avail.
Also irritatingly, I cannot make bigger the "post-window" - can only scroll up + down ... i`ll try again in Safari.
Later: Ahhh ... the "x" has to go ... i`m soo stupid