zodiac and the insertion of Libra

Dragon Snacks

Padawan Learner
Reading Chapter 66 or the Wave Series and came upon this:

"To the left of the portal are 11 images of the zodiacal constellations. There are 11, rather than the statutory 12, because Scorpius and Libra are merged as one, in the image of a scorpion grasping in its chelae, or claws, the balance of Libra..."

"The zodiac was changed by taking the pincers away from the Scorpion and creating out of them the sign of Libra. This image was one of a woman holding a balance scales, usually blindfolded."

"...the insertion of the sign of Libra was designed to take power away from human beings, to take their hands away, to prevent them from seeing, to make them defenseless. Is this imagery close?"

I was taken aback by this because I'm a Libra and my wife is a Scorpio, as is my Dad....oh and one of my daughters...and my father-in-law...and my niece. Of course, I began contemplating mine and my wife's relationship with this new info in mind. In general, I would characterize myself as the one trying to "see", while she doesn't have much interest in doing so, none that I can discern anyway.

Just something I thought you all might find interesting.

I do have a question. Where can I find more info on Virgo and Scorpio being split up by Libra?


FOTCM Member
Dragon Snacks said:
I do have a question. Where can I find more info on Virgo and Scorpio being split up by Libra?

You aren't going to find much. I put everything I had found at the time in The Wave though there may be some additional info around on the forum from years back. Curiously, I found a reference to it in a book I'm currently reading about the relations between Magna Graecia and Rome between 700 BC and 200 AD. It was in reference to some activities of Augustus but I don't have the book to hand at the moment and it's really only an allusion.

Minas Tirith

Jedi Council Member
I just did a quick search and came up with some things (put the words zodiac insertion Libra in the search engine)

Even the zodiacs used varied over time. The author mentions an ancient ten-sign zodiac which, by the splitting of one sign into Virgo and Scorpio and the insertion of Libra, was transformed into twelve signs. The very similar symbols for Virgo c and Scorpio e hint at this original unity. In her Secret Doctrine H. P. Blavatsky mentions that two of the zodiacal signs ``remained for ages the 'mystery signs,''' saying also that the "idea that the signs of the Zodiac were in ancient times only ten is erroneous. Ten only were known to the profane; the initiates, however, knew them all, from the time of the separation of mankind into sexes, whence arose the separation of Virgo-Scorpio into two; which, owing to a secret sign added and the Libra invented by the Greeks, instead of the secret name which was not given, made 12" (2:502&n). In considering these signs, Richer says that the marriage of Cadmus (Scorpio) and Harmonia (Libra) "may commemorate the insertion of the sign of Libra in the zodiac. Harmonia was originally from Samothrace: in allegorical terms this could mean that the priestly college of that island decided on the zodiacal reform" (p. 115).

Those who hold the opinion that before its revision by the Greeks the zodiac consisted of only ten signs adduce evidence to show that Libra (the Scales) was inserted into the zodiac by dividing the constellation of Virgo Scorpio (at that time one sign) into two parts, thus establishing "the balance" at the point of equilibrium between the ascending northern and the descending southern signs. (See The Rosicrucians, Their Rites and Mysteries, by Hargrave Jennings.) On this subject Isaac Myer states: "We think that the Zodiacal constellations were first ten and represented an immense androgenic man or deity; subsequently this was changed, resulting in Scorpio and Virgo and making eleven; after this from Scorpio, Libra, the Balance, was taken, making the present twelve." (The Qabbalah.)

Not sure if this is all worth pursuing, though and I am also sure that there are a couple of Scorpios here in the forum very much interested in working on themselves ;)

Regarding the clustering of a particular sign in a family, this seems to happen. In mine every second person is Cancer (not me :P), but I always found it peculiar. In other families I have known a lot of members are air signs and so forth...



FOTCM Member
The Rosicrucian and Blavatsky stuff isn't worth pursuing. I have an excellent scholarly history of astrology and I included much of it in "Comets and the Horns of Moses".


FOTCM Member
When i first joined, (i believe) CATHOM had recently been released and i had just decided that Astrology would/could be my ticket to self employment!....

So i read John Lamb Lash's 'Quest for the Zodiac' which used Sidereal astrology and added a few other elements like your 'earth sign' (the one opposite to your sun). Then i actually asked a few Q's here and read CATHOM and realised that, like Tarot, to me at least, it seemed as though this was merely a tool for tuned in persons to use. Because the different zodiacs and all the aspects vary so greatly that there must be more to it than mechanics. And if the mechanics on earth change cyclically so, does it just change along with it?

Even after reading Lash's book, and as much as i wanted it to work, i found it contradictory and lacking. But again, if the person is tuned, they can 'receive' information from picking up a used toothpick right? So that's not to say that like tarot it isn't fun to play with or to use to as a psychological tool for blindspots and the like - which i found it quite useful for.

Laura's book CATHOM confirms the 2nd bolded part, at least it did for me.

Anyway, i was reading the transcripts yesterday and think this sums it up:

Laura said:
September 09, 2000

Ark, Laura, Frank, Barry
Q: (L) Well, okay. So much for that! That was my take on it too, but since inquiring minds have sent these questions, I did think I would present them! Now, this one ought to be quick. Another correspondent wants to ask some questions about his research in astrology. The question is: could you give a number, in percentages, representing the degree of influence or correspondence of astrological factors, relating to the whole system of possible influence over character, constitution, and destiny of an individual?

A: Varies according to the preconceived notions of the perceptor.

Q: (L) So, it could have a great deal of influence for someone who believes it does, or no influence over somebody who does not believe? Is it possible that, if you do not believe, it has no influence? Or...

A: No.

Q: (L) So, even if you believe it has no influence, it will still have some influence?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) For somebody who is completely skeptical, what would be the percentage of influence?

A: Not measurable in such terms.

Q: (L) Can you get me in a ball park here?

A: You are misconceiving.

Q: (B) Is the reason you can't give a percentage because, even under such circumstances, the percentages are variable?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) If it is variable, is there a percentage in a global or general sense of the term?

A: We have spoken of illusion before.

Q: (L) Is astrology in general a false assumption?

A: Astrology is a stepping stone to higher knowledge.

Q: (L) What is the most useful application of astrological concepts as known today?

A: Publishing works which other 3rd density types will gleefully purchase!

Q: (L) Well, that's pretty cynical! Now, this guy has developed something he calls the "Natural House System." He asks: Is the Natural House System a better approximation to the problem of houses in astrology related to other known systems? Is his idea better than what is out there?

A: If it if he can convince enough others.

Q: (L) Is there, in 4th density, an equivalent to 3rd density astrology?

A: Not needed there.

So it dashed my ideas for self employment, but i couldn't do something i no longer 'believed' in. And that was after blabbing to all and everyone about it...

Astrology is a clue to look up and ask questions and the answers found were in relation higher knowledge.
That's how it seems to me anyway,


Jedi Master
I think there are several things that come into play when talking about astrology as a method or tool for understanding oneself and others. I understand it as symbolical language of energetic influences and in order to understand that language the astrologer has to have some knowledge but primarily the understanding comes through the intuition. That's why you can never get a computer to become a good astrologer and why the only way to become a competent astrologer is to keep Working on yourself. The ability to interpret the language depends on several factors. The first being the ability to tune in to the astrological language of the person doing the interpretation (the astrologer). As mentioned this ability is directly linked to a persons self-knowledge, so if you haven't done the Work on yourself, chances are that you're not going to be very good at tuning in. The second part in the energetic interplay between the astrologer and the client. It can be likened to the degree of noise on a communications signal. If there's too much noise the signal won't be received by the client even if the interpretation is correct.

Lastly, I think it's important to remember that astrology is not an absolute method. Interpretation methodology should be seen in the context of the time and place and culture where it was developed. Therefore, while an astrologer using modern psychological astrology can be quite good at interpreting horoscopes of Western people in modern times, they will most likely miss many things if they interpret the horoscope of a Chinese person or an African person who has lived in a culture that is much different from the culture in which the astrological method was developed. For instance, in Indian culture many things are looked upon as more or less fated and not very influencable by free will. Therefore, Indian astrology reflects this and many interpretations are taken to be absolute - you just have to live with it. Therefore, when very competent Indian astrologers make interpretations of Western horoscopes they can be quite off. The reason is that astrology represents cosmic energies manifesting through the psyche and energy field of an individual. But since there's an influence between psyche, energy body, emotional body people with different cultural backgrounds will manifest these energetic influences in quite different ways. At the same time a competent astrologer will be able to say many things that are right, although the way that it manifests in the life of the client can vary. Therefore, it's important to remember that it's the life of the client that should be the measure of whether the interpretation is correct and not the other way around. I've seen many people who say that "Oh, my horoscope says this and that" and use this to avoid taking responsibility for their own situation. You can't avoid being responsible for the consequences and results of your actions based on free will. What (modern) astrology can do is to help you understand what the energetic foundation that has led to the development of coping mechanisms that result in you facing the same situations again and and again. In a sense an astrological interpretation of you birth chart can help you understand the hand of cards you've been dealt and how to play the cards if you want to develop yourself. But we don't exist in a vacuum so the influences are happening all the time and here astrology can help understanding the interplay between the influences that are happening at a given point in time or period of time and the energetic/psychological person that you represent.

Lastly, it's important to remember that people are not static and as they mature and develop through their Work the interpretation of the horoscope changes. As their FRV changes so does the manifestation of the energetic influences. So if someone read your birth chart 10 years ago some of the things may still be valid but chances are that if you've Worked on yourself many things have changed and therefore a current interpretation will be very different from the one that was made previously. And the further you are in your personal development, the higher the requirements of the astrologer who's interpreting your horoscope. Basically, the lens through which the astrologer will view your horoscope is based on his/her FRV and if that's lower than yours you won't be able to use the interpretation for very much.

I think Laura's analysis in CATHOM is very interesting and it shows what astrology was used for at that point in time and in that culture. However, just like the application of computers has changed dramatically since they were first invented, so has astrology and there are many different applications. In the end, I think astrology is a way for one self to become more tuned in through the application of astrology. But as long as the application of it can be used to assist others in understanding the choices they face and putting in the right context I think it has a lot of value.

Just my two cents :)

Shared Joy

Jedi Council Member
I was interested in astrology as I needed some more data to evaluate the not so obvious traits of a persons. I even made some correlation between psychological test results and certain astro-variables and obtained significant and positive correlations. Afterwards I just dropped it, as the whole method was to laborious to be applied.

Later on I discovered that the Chinese medicine also paired organs with planets, and I started studying that too, but the sources not always agree with these pairings. Nevertheless, some of my findings were consistent and verifiable in several cases. I don't know, maybe is worth asking the C's about these planet - organ correlations? Is there any validity to it? It would be an additional source of data so needed in many cases.



Padawan Learner
Anyone ever heard about this guy Santos Bonacci, and his take on "The True Theology"???


He seem to have reconstructed elements of Astrological practices before the onset of religion. What do you think??


The Living Force
ankhepiphan said:
Anyone ever heard about this guy Santos Bonacci, and his take on "The True Theology"???

He has been discussed before here
John Lash Lamb.
( his real name ? considering he is attacking "The Lamb" )
Or just another example of early Co In Tel creations thinking they are dealing with Idiots ?

I just came across this Guy ,
and he seems to be attempting to Keep an exteremely WIDE GATE.
Sophia, Gaia, Gnosticism ,

From Amazon..

"" This ancient philosophy was threatening to the emerging salvation-based creed of Christianity that was based on patriarchal dominion over the Earth and lauded personal suffering as a path to the afterlife.""
Linking Patriarchal dominion , and the suffering of life together, Hmmmm,
Nice little temptation to the Lazy there.

So all those who suffer and work hard with "The WORK"
are wrong ?

And the Esoteric teacher jesus gets all the blame for the Popes of a few hundred years after .

Now he is into the mandela effect apparently.

Anyone got any more info on this guy ?
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