How do you work with Social Anxiety?

I'm starting this thread because I'm working through issues surrounding social anxiety and was wondering how, if any of the forum members deal with this and what are general thoughts about it?

It basically is a continuation from a conversation started on the EE thread:

truth seeker said:

RedFox said:

I've been away for a few days with work and have had to socialise/been out of my comfort zone (or at least that's how it use to be when I went away with work).
The last few days have brought home that of self observation and using social interactions to bring up/highlight and actively change programs during interacting with others....more so the identifying and challenging of the beliefs on which they have there foundations built.
It has been an eye opener to say the least....and I am feeling extremely comfortable and at ease with myself, so much so my appearance (at least to me in the mirror) seem to have changed....weird.
I've also noticed that my memory/recall for things (both short and long term) has improved dramatically....so much so I can vividly recall things I never knew I remembered.

The resent posts in this thread have tied a lot of old things together for me it seems....some of which have left me feeling quite shocked

Laura said:

So, some of you begin to "see the unseen". I bet you never thought that this was how it would be. You probably thought you'd start seeing ghosts or auras or some of the nonsense that gets propagated by the so-called esotericists and mumbo-jumbo artists.

What is interesting is when the so-called "rational mind," i.e. the intellect fueled by emotion, tries to talk you out of what you are seeing.

Click to expand...

I didn't realise it until you said this Laura that I've actually seen this for some years...even before sott....and the more I thought about it (in relation to social interaction and my avoidance strategies of social interactions) the more it dawns on me that I've "seen the unseen" as long as I can remember....and I find this quite shocking (for some unknown reason).

It has brough back countless memories......

mada85 said:

Something that really chills me is dead or soulless eyes. I often notice that when people are talking to me, their eyes are flat – there is no life in them, even though they may appear quite enthusiastic or animated in what they are saying. I may be enjoying what they are saying and their enthusiasm, and suddenly I notice that their eyes are dead. It is a shock and quite chilling to observe this and ponder the implications, to realise that I am having a conversation with a machine, and that all their thoughts, feelings, reactions, words and movements – in short, everything about the person – is mechanical.

Click to expand...

I remember staring in horror as a small child at certain people.......whats worse is it felt like whatever was behind the eyes noticed me notice it....and I would know it knew I'd noticed it (sorry for the tongue twister)....which would make it worse....
This has been my life, so to 'see these things' is just part of me....what I realise is that my programs and rational mind have tried there best to protect me from these things....by shutting it out.
More so I became convinced that what it was me that was the problem (especially as a teenager).....I would 'see' fear or disgust in others when they looked at me. I have very strong programs to do with Not making eye contact with others....it finally makes sense as to why I have them.

It seems to have been twisted into a almost overwhelming fear of what 'other would see in me' if I made eye contact.

I even went through a period where (just after my depression) others would see me on the street, and only when they made eye contact would there expression change...and I had a few people literally stop mid stride in fear 'at what they saw in me'.....which only reinforced the belief that I was worthless.

I think....but I could be wrong....that what it actually was, was a projection of the fear I felt at 'what I saw' when I was a child....
I'd really like someone to confirm if this seems to be the case.....digging up core/life time programs is a pretty scary thing.

Click to expand...

I too have "seen" this in people. For much of my life, in fact. What I eventually came to conclude (I don't feel this way now) was that there was something wrong with me. I ended up feeling uncomfortable/self conscious with it and developed a problem with looking at people. This, in turn, led me I think to having social anxiety which was and still is debilitating.

Over the last year and a half, I was also seeing this in children (insert demonic child movie here) which really freaked me out.

Perhaps I'll start a thread about social anxiety if there isn't one already...

Click to expand...

truth seeker said:

I ended up feeling uncomfortable/self conscious with it and developed a problem with looking at people. This, in turn, led me I think to having social anxiety which was and still is debilitating.

Click to expand...

I don't understand what do you mean by social anxiety, How do you experience this anxiety?

To add my viewpoint.

I wouldn’t know. Just to keep everything on the table. This story of yours can also be an excuse all together, to not confront yourself.

To round it all up, it’s there ‘sleep’ state which horrors you. You have observed others, did you also observed yourself?

You have some Social Anxiety? The problem I guess lies with you not with them.

Maybe you can ask yourself, Am I afraid that:

- Meeting new people.
- Being the center of attention.
- Being watched while doing something.
- Making small talk
- Being teased or criticized.

If you are afraid what other people may think about you than you also demand something from them.


What I don’t really understand, can you clarify what you mean by your Social Anxiety. How do you experience that?

I don't think I understood either. Do you have more social anxiety now that you are seeing how mechanical and soulless people are, is it a sort of a "oh no, these zombies are going to get me"?

No problem. How I experience it is really close to what bjorn said.

Being the center of attention.
Being watched while doing something.

The big one is feeling that I make other people uncomfortable. How do I think I do this? It's really wacky. It starts off as feeling uncomfortable with attention. Then from there it goes to these thoughts: Am I looking at them too long? Perhaps I should look elsewhere. Do they notice that I seem uncomfortable? If they do, they must think something is wrong with me.

I am completely aware that the problem lies with me. Whenever I've spoken to anyone about it (eg. I feel awkward in social situations, do I make you feel uncomfortable?), they all say no. Not only do they not feel uncomfortable, but they also don't think I look particularly uncomfortable. It's really wild how I've created this entire scenario in my head when in reality, nothing is going on!

Oddly enough, (as has been pointed out on other threads) while I don't like being the center of attention, it really seems quite narcissistic...

This story of yours can also be an excuse all together, to not confront yourself.

Click to expand...

This is something I hadn't considered. Can you speak more to this?

Hildegarda said:

I'm actually getting better about dealing with it and feeling more confident (I think).
I don't think I understood either. Do you have more social anxiety now that you are seeing how mechanical and soulless people are, is it a sort of a "oh no, these zombies are going to get me"?

Click to expand...

Thanks for all of your replies.

Edit: clarification

truth seeker said:

The big one is feeling that I make other people uncomfortable. How do I think I do this? It's really wacky. It starts off as feeling uncomfortable with attention. Then from there it goes to these thoughts: Am I looking at them too long? Perhaps I should look elsewhere. Do they notice that I seem uncomfortable? If they do, they must think something is wrong with me.

[..]Whenever I've spoken to anyone about it (eg. I feel awkward in social situations, do I make you feel uncomfortable?), they all say no. Not only do they not feel uncomfortable, but they also don't think I look particularly uncomfortable. It's really wild how I've created this entire scenario in my head when in reality, nothing is going on!

Click to expand...

Of course! Other people are probably having going through the reel of the same kinds of thoughts: "are they looking at me? ... I wonder whether my breath stinks ... is my hair tousled? ... oh no, my hands are sweating what do I do with them", etc etc etc. Or they are thinking about their personal things that matter to them at present, going through some conversations they had or a list of things to do today, etc.

What helped me at some point with social anxiety is the realization that, the time when I worry about what people think of me is precisely the time when I am paying the LEAST attention to what the people are ACTUALLY doing.

And if they are doing the same thing for at least part of the time, that means that at any given time practically NOBODY is really paying attention to what I am doing. Everyone is too busy thinking about themselves, so there is no reason to worry.

I probably cannot relate to the "beginning to see the dead and soulless eyes" thing too well. Being nearsighted from early childhood, I don't see the others' eyes well and am not used to looking keenly at them even now when I wear good corrective lenses. Some people's eyes creeped me out on occasions though, so I must have noticed things throughout my life.

IN any case, I'm wondering whether, once you get used to the new feeling, perhaps it may even help your comfort in social situations, as it is a very vivid representation of people's mechanical way of thinking. And if you are trying to NOT be mechanical, that gives you more freedom and ease in dealing with them, you can have some confidence that you can adjust your behavior to whatever happens and whatever they do.

I even went through a period where (just after my depression) others would see me on the street, and only when they made eye contact would there expression change...and I had a few people literally stop mid stride in fear 'at what they saw in me'.....which only reinforced the belief that I was worthless.

Click to expand...

May I offer an alternative explanation for that. I noticed -- and then my big-city friends confirmed my observation -- that in big cities there is an unspoken rule of not making eye contact with other people on the street. It is part of the politeness code in a way, that shows you respect their personal space (which is very small in such a crowded place), and that you'd expect the same from them.

So if you make eye contact with a stranger on a street, they will be jolted by it and their face will show a mixture of emotions trying to understand why you are doing it: are you threatening, crazy or was it just an accident. This is probably why you saw people "stopping mid stride" -- but that most likely had nothing to do with you personally, I had the same thing happen to me.

Oddly enough, (as has been pointed out on other threads) while I don't like being the center of attention, it really seems quite narcissistic...

Click to expand...

I think you may be quite right. I also was wondering whether the shy and anxious behavior is actually narcissistic.

It doesn't look like it, but the idea behind it is the same: 1) a twisted perception that everyone is looking at me, "it's all about me", when it really, really isn't, and 2) in some cases, the feeling of not being worthy is just a flip-side of the, "I am so great and wonderful but this stupid people don't recognize it, they are not paying attention to me, not giving me what's due, poor me, AAAHH!"

Funny that the solution to both -- curbing narcissistic tendencies and relieving social anxiety -- also appears to lay in trying to pay more objective attention to what's going on around you, and think of other people instead of oneself.

[quote author=truth seeker]The big one is feeling that I make other people uncomfortable. How do I think I do this? It's really wacky. It starts off as feeling uncomfortable with attention.[/quote]

[quote author=bjorn]If you are afraid what other people may think about you than you also demand something from them.[/quote]

You are afraid they might feel uncomfortable with you. Than I think you demand something from them.

How do you want them to think about you? Are you trying to achieve, proof something when being with others? Do you act, say things to give a certain appearance so that people my like you? Do you do this seldom, regular, always?



[quote author=Truth seeker]This is something I hadn't considered. Can you speak more to this?[/quote]

Well your focus was lying on others. When it’s you who has ‘social anxiety’. What I mean with excuse is that: You rather say those people got a problem instead of I got a problem. Because when you do. You have to confront yourself and you may not like what you see and that’s painful.

and:

When you are with others. You don’t feel comfortable. You may judge them. Saying your worth is more than them? ‘I am ‘awake’ and they are ‘asleep’? Maybe a way in trying to get self-esteem but still it may be used as an excuse again, into not confronting yourself.



[quote author=Hildegarda]What helped me at some point with social anxiety is the realization that, the time when I worry about what people think of me is precisely the time when I am paying the LEAST attention to what the people are ACTUALLY doing. [/quote]

I can recognize this also.

[quote author=Hildegarda]in some cases, the feeling of not being worthy is just a flip-side of the, "I am so great and wonderful but this stupid people don't recognize it, they are not paying attention to me, not giving me what's due, poor me, AAAHH!"[/quote]

I think this is something to consider.



Maybe you recognize yourself in some. But to make it clear. It are questions I ask, not directions. It’s you who has to do the talking not us.

The reason why I prematurely saying it is this. When you take them as directions, it may lead you somewhere off. Which will only confuse more.

Hi truth seeker, I think I know what you are talking about as I use to experience it sometimes in the past (not exactly in the same form as you do, but I think these are just variations to the theme)
My current understanding is that this is your predator's ploy stemming from some deep unresolved issue or issues that you might have.
Getting to the root of such issues is certainly not easy and it might require help from experienced therapist.

By the end of the day it all boils down to indulging in internal considering - there is a great bit about this in ISOTM by Ouspensky, unfortunately I lent the book and I cannot find this to quote for you now.

This is what I managed to find on cassiopedia and its quite close:

Internal considering can be likened to man's inner predator. It feeds itself by engaging in subjective fantasies where it thinks it is other than it is. It will also seek to gain external confirmation for its distorted self-image by manipulating others to confirm it in its views. Man may go to much trouble to make an impression, simply in order to have his own illusory, internally considered self-image reflected back to himself from others. All success in such manipulation feeds the predator and confirms it in its internal considering and accordingly removes the center of gravity of man's inner life away from objectivity. Internal considering is in very concrete terms man's natural enemy who seeks to prevent man from being himself. The predator will at all times prefer an illusion of virtue to the naked truth about itself. Still, it is not useful to morally judge or condemn the predator, just like it is useless to condemn a cat for eating mice. Still, one must disengage from identifying with this predator. Claiming to Work while engaging in internal considering is a contradiction in terms. The forms of internal considering can however be extremely subtle and one cannot always detect them, thus constant vigilance is required. The predator of internal considering may well claim to engage in merciless self-observation, to aspire to consciousness and being and any other virtues and even trick itself to believe it is progressing towards these goals while all the while only feeding its vanity and desire for recognition.

Hi truth seeker, I have dealt with social anxiety my whole life, as has my whole family. I was even diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and put on antidepressants. They helped somewhat with the anxiety while on them, but the side effects and potential risks from taking them far outweigh any benefit imo. What I have found about this condition is that it has a lot to do with narcissism. When you are narcissistic you view others through the lense of your past experiences, which makes one very worried that they may attack you like you have been in the past by others. I think the anxiety comes largely from unresolved trauma which you re experience in similar social situations. What has helped me with this is doing certain techniques that release emotional blocks and clear traumas. For example I have used the Emotional Freedom Technique and also EMDR. In these techinques I think what is important is focusing on the specific emotion which comes up in these social situations. In EMDR one moves their eyes back and forth while reliving these emotions and the trauma clears almost instantly.

Also I have found that much social interaction is just running a program and you have to know the program for it to run smoothly and for both people to feel comfortable. For example saying hi how are you, good how are you? when you talk to someone. So basically it comes down to learning social skills in order to function socially. I have found this book helpful: Conversationally Speaking. In this book the author says that no one is born as a person who is comfortable socially, these skills must be learned. I was never taught them growing up but they have helped me recently.

Hopefully this may help you. :)

edit: word choice

Masamune said:

In this book the author says that no one is born as a person who is comfortable socially, these skills must be learned. I was never taught them growing up but they have helped me recently.

Click to expand...

So true! We tend to ascribe an achievement to innate talents, if we do not see the daily effort that goes into it. How many people would look at an artist and say, "wow, you draw so well, I can never do that", forgetting that he\she practiced hours a day for years in order to get there. Here is an article about it, "What it takes to be great": \\\http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm . Perspiration, according to the authors who base their conclusion on the newest studies, accounts not for 90% but for all 99.99% of success. I can see that it holds for the social interactions, too, especially for the most basic of them.

Hi truth seeker and everyone.

Thanks truth seeker for starting this thread it’s very interesting so far. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts/observations on this topic.

For me, social anxiety has always been about weather that other person will like me or not. Basically the idea of 'fitting in'. This was also a big program for me in high-school. In high school, I was one of those kids that did stuff just to ‘fit in’. I was never shy, just the opposite.. very outgoing. But I think it was (still is to a much less degree) a narcissistic aspect within myself that wanted to be liked by everyone.. I think that when I was able to recognize this within myself, it was the first step towards healing.

Hildegarda said:

May I offer an alternative explanation for that. I noticed -- and then my big-city friends confirmed my observation -- that in big cities there is an unspoken rule of not making eye contact with other people on the street. It is part of the politeness code in a way, that shows you respect their personal space (which is very small in such a crowded place), and that you'd expect the same from them.

So if you make eye contact with a stranger on a street, they will be jolted by it and their face will show a mixture of emotions trying to understand why you are doing it: are you threatening, crazy or was it just an accident. This is probably why you saw people "stopping mid stride" -- but that most likely had nothing to do with you personally, I had the same thing happen to me.

Click to expand...

This is interesting. I’ve actually never heard that before and it’s funny because where I grew up it was a sign of politeness and etiquette that you always look people in the eyes while speaking with them and vice versa. Therefore, even when passing people in the street I tend to look them in the eyes. Like a first glance kind of thing. But what you have written above, in a way makes sense and is interesting.

truth seeker said:

I too have "seen" this in people. For much of my life, in fact. What I eventually came to conclude (I don't feel this way now) was that there was something wrong with me. I ended up feeling uncomfortable/self conscious with it and developed a problem with looking at people. This, in turn, led me I think to having social anxiety which was and still is debilitating.

Click to expand...

Hmm, it’s funny because I have always believed in that old saying “The eyes are the windows to the soul”. I’ll offer what I’ve experienced as far as this goes and it is all just a theory.

I’ve experienced this in two senses:

One, the best way I can describe it is when you see a glitter in someone’s eye, as if they are very cunning. This is actually depicted through cartoons when most villains have that glitter in their eye sort to speak. Most of the people I noticed that in tend to have much more narcissistic personalities and are usually cunning.

The second is when someone is dissociating. I’ve had conversations with people where I’ve noticed that they are a thousand light years away. ‘They’ are not there sort to speak; this is broadly discussed in the Myth of Sanity.

Is this something close to what you and redfox are talking about?

Hildegarda said:

I even went through a period where (just after my depression) others would see me on the street, and only when they made eye contact would there expression change...and I had a few people literally stop mid stride in fear 'at what they saw in me'.....which only reinforced the belief that I was worthless.

Click to expand...

May I offer an alternative explanation for that. I noticed -- and then my big-city friends confirmed my observation -- that in big cities there is an unspoken rule of not making eye contact with other people on the street. It is part of the politeness code in a way, that shows you respect their personal space (which is very small in such a crowded place), and that you'd expect the same from them.

So if you make eye contact with a stranger on a street, they will be jolted by it and their face will show a mixture of emotions trying to understand why you are doing it: are you threatening, crazy or was it just an accident. This is probably why you saw people "stopping mid stride" -- but that most likely had nothing to do with you personally, I had the same thing happen to me.

Click to expand...

The top quote was actually RedFox's but I understand what you mean.

Oddly enough, (as has been pointed out on other threads) while I don't like being the center of attention, it really seems quite narcissistic...

Click to expand...

Hildegarda said:

I think you may be quite right. I also was wondering whether the shy and anxious behavior is actually narcissistic.

It doesn't look like it, but the idea behind it is the same: 1) a twisted perception that everyone is looking at me, "it's all about me", when it really, really isn't, and 2) in some cases, the feeling of not being worthy is just a flip-side of the, "I am so great and wonderful but this stupid people don't recognize it, they are not paying attention to me, not giving me what's due, poor me, AAAHH!"

Funny that the solution to both -- curbing narcissistic tendencies and relieving social anxiety -- also appears to lay in trying to pay more objective attention to what's going on around you, and think of other people instead of oneself.

Click to expand...

It is strange how on the face of it, it doesn't look like what we initially think of as narcissism. It reminds me of passive/aggressiveness. We tend to focus on the aggressive aspect and not so much the passive which is equally if not more damaging because of it's insidiousness.

bjorn said:

truth seeker]The big one is feeling that I make other people uncomfortable. How do I think I do this? It's really wacky. It starts off as feeling uncomfortable with attention.[/quote] [quote author=bjorn]If you are afraid what other people may think about you than you also demand something from them.[/quote] You are afraid they might feel uncomfortable with you. Than I think you demand something from them. How do you want them to think about you? Are you trying to achieve said:

Truth seeker]This is something I hadn't considered. Can you speak more to this?[/quote] Well your focus was lying on others. When it’s you who has ‘social anxiety’. What I mean with excuse is that[b]:[/b] You rather say those people got a problem instead of I got a problem. Because when you do. You have to confront yourself and you may not like what you see and that’s painful. and: When you are with others. You don’t feel comfortable. You may judge them. Saying your worth is more than them? ‘I am ‘awake’ and they are ‘asleep’? Maybe a way in trying to get self-esteem but still it may be used as an excuse again said:

Hi truth seeker, I think I know what you are talking about as I use to experience it sometimes in the past (not exactly in the same form as you do, but I think these are just variations to the theme)
My current understanding is that this is your predator's ploy stemming from some deep unresolved issue or issues that you might have.
Getting to the root of such issues is certainly not easy and it might require help from experienced therapist.

By the end of the day it all boils down to indulging in internal considering - there is a great bit about this in ISOTM by Ouspensky, unfortunately I lent the book and I cannot find this to quote for you now.

This is what I managed to find on cassiopedia and its quite close:

Internal considering can be likened to man's inner predator. It feeds itself by engaging in subjective fantasies where it thinks it is other than it is. It will also seek to gain external confirmation for its distorted self-image by manipulating others to confirm it in its views. Man may go to much trouble to make an impression, simply in order to have his own illusory, internally considered self-image reflected back to himself from others. All success in such manipulation feeds the predator and confirms it in its internal considering and accordingly removes the center of gravity of man's inner life away from objectivity. Internal considering is in very concrete terms man's natural enemy who seeks to prevent man from being himself. The predator will at all times prefer an illusion of virtue to the naked truth about itself. Still, it is not useful to morally judge or condemn the predator, just like it is useless to condemn a cat for eating mice. Still, one must disengage from identifying with this predator. Claiming to Work while engaging in internal considering is a contradiction in terms. The forms of internal considering can however be extremely subtle and one cannot always detect them, thus constant vigilance is required. The predator of internal considering may well claim to engage in merciless self-observation, to aspire to consciousness and being and any other virtues and even trick itself to believe it is progressing towards these goals while all the while only feeding its vanity and desire for recognition.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this Corto. This is next on my reading list. The last sentence made me smile as I think he succinctly describes my current situation. Amazing how slippery this is.

Masamune said:

Hi truth seeker, I have dealt with social anxiety my whole life, as has my whole family. I was even diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and put on antidepressants. They helped somewhat with the anxiety while on them, but the side effects and potential risks from taking them far outweigh any benefit imo. What I have found about this condition is that it has a lot to do with narcissism. When you are narcissistic you view others through the lense of your past experiences, which makes one very worried that they may attack you like you have been in the past by others. I think the anxiety comes largely from unresolved trauma which you re experience in similar social situations. What has helped me with this is doing certain techniques that release emotional blocks and clear traumas. For example I have used the Emotional Freedom Technique and also EMDR. In these techinques I think what is important is focusing on the specific emotion which comes up in these social situations. In EMDR one moves their eyes back and forth while reliving these emotions and the trauma clears almost instantly.

Also I have found that much social interaction is just running a program and you have to know the program for it to run smoothly and for both people to feel comfortable. For example saying hi how are you, good how are you? when you talk to someone. So basically it comes down to learning social skills in order to function socially. I have found this book helpful: Conversationally Speaking. In this book the author says that no one is born as a person who is comfortable socially, these skills must be learned. I was never taught them growing up but they have helped me recently.

Hopefully this may help you. :)

Click to expand...

It's definitely helpful Masamune! I'm sorry to hear that you've been dealing with this your entire life. I'm still trying to pinpoint what happened to me that was so traumatic to cause this...

Great point you made regarding social interaction. I wasn't taught social skills either and like many just assumed that I had them.

Hildegarda said:

So true! We tend to ascribe an achievement to innate talents, if we do not see the daily effort that goes into it. How many people would look at an artist and say, "wow, you draw so well, I can never do that", forgetting that he\she practiced hours a day for years in order to get there. Here is an article about it, "What it takes to be great": \\\http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm . Perspiration, according to the authors who base their conclusion on the newest studies, accounts not for 90% but for all 99.99% of success. I can see that it holds for the social interactions, too, especially for the most basic of them.

Click to expand...

Funny, I consider myself to be creative, but also wrongly thought that talent was innate and you were either "born gifted" or you weren't. Thinking about this now also makes me sad because I spent many years not being creative because I felt I wasn't "born with the gift" but rather just someone who liked to draw/write/etc.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The top quote was actually RedFox's but I understand what you mean.

Click to expand...

my apologies, I got the quotes within quotes within quotes all mixed up

Deedlet said:

I’ve actually never heard that before and it’s funny because where I grew up it was a sign of politeness and etiquette that you always look people in the eyes while speaking with them and vice versa. Therefore, even when passing people in the street I tend to look them in the eyes. Like a first glance kind of thing. But what you have written above, in a way makes sense and is interesting.

Click to expand...

yes, of course if you speak to people, you look them in the eye and smile (in the US; in my home country you may do better setting your face in a kind of a scowl :)).

But if it's a stranger that you are passing on a busy street or in a large store, that's a bit different. In a smaller mid-western town where I live now, it's quite OK, and when people meet your gaze, they naturally smile and even say "how are you" or something. Not doing that would be rude. While in NY, if you look a stranger in the eyes, you get a startle reflex, and if you start smiling or making small talk, people may well get jittery. It takes a while to get used to it, if you move from NY to Midwest or vice versa. This is why mid-westerners like to complain how rude the new yorkers are, whereas in fact that's just the big-city civility. New York consistently comes up as one of the most polite city on the planet, and there is more of a chance of someone holding a door for you in NY then here, or helping out with directions, -- and of course in that case you'll make an eye contact and say "thank you", and a person will say, "you are welcome" :)

what this may suggest is that social anxiety is a natural thing, and that people have evolved all kinds of adaptations to it. They may be relative to the situation, and they can certainly be learned. This is why I liked the book suggestion that Masamune gave.

Deedlet said:

Hi truth seeker and everyone.

Thanks truth seeker for starting this thread it’s very interesting so far. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts/observations on this topic.

For me, social anxiety has always been about weather that other person will like me or not. Basically the idea of 'fitting in'. This was also a big program for me in high-school. In high school, I was one of those kids that did stuff just to ‘fit in’. I was never shy, just the opposite.. very outgoing. But I think it was (still is to a much less degree) a narcissistic aspect within myself that wanted to be liked by everyone.. I think that when I was able to recognize this within myself, it was the first step towards healing.

Click to expand...

I was quite the opposite in high school. I hung out in many different groups because I didn't feel I completely fit into any one group. While I'm not shy, I'm not particularly outgoing either. I definitely agree with the wanting to be liked aspect of this.

Deedlet said:

Hildegarda said:

May I offer an alternative explanation for that. I noticed -- and then my big-city friends confirmed my observation -- that in big cities there is an unspoken rule of not making eye contact with other people on the street. It is part of the politeness code in a way, that shows you respect their personal space (which is very small in such a crowded place), and that you'd expect the same from them.

So if you make eye contact with a stranger on a street, they will be jolted by it and their face will show a mixture of emotions trying to understand why you are doing it: are you threatening, crazy or was it just an accident. This is probably why you saw people "stopping mid stride" -- but that most likely had nothing to do with you personally, I had the same thing happen to me.

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This is interesting. I’ve actually never heard that before and it’s funny because where I grew up it was a sign of politeness and etiquette that you always look people in the eyes while speaking with them and vice versa. Therefore, even when passing people in the street I tend to look them in the eyes. Like a first glance kind of thing. But what you have written above, in a way makes sense and is interesting.

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I actually am familiar with what Hildegarda means here. I grew up in NYC and we really don't look at each other there.

Deedlet said:

truth seeker said:

I too have "seen" this in people. For much of my life, in fact. What I eventually came to conclude (I don't feel this way now) was that there was something wrong with me. I ended up feeling uncomfortable/self conscious with it and developed a problem with looking at people. This, in turn, led me I think to having social anxiety which was and still is debilitating.

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Hmm, it’s funny because I have always believed in that old saying “The eyes are the windows to the soul”. I’ll offer what I’ve experienced as far as this goes and it is all just a theory.

I’ve experienced this in two senses:

One, the best way I can describe it is when you see a glitter in someone’s eye, as if they are very cunning. This is actually depicted through cartoons when most villains have that glitter in their eye sort to speak. Most of the people I noticed that in tend to have much more narcissistic personalities and are usually cunning.

The second is when someone is dissociating. I’ve had conversations with people where I’ve noticed that they are a thousand light years away. ‘They’ are not there sort to speak; this is broadly discussed in the Myth of Sanity.

Is this something close to what you and redfox are talking about?

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I won't speak for RedFox, but what I experienced may have been a bit of high strangeness. This happened to me on an airplane last year. At the time, there were (and still are) an incredible amount of synchronicities happening. I wasn't familiar with esoteric work of any sort or this forum. I knew close to nothing about aliens/hyperdimensional beings and frankly wasn't interested. Because of the synchronous nature of what was happening, I was having difficulty putting together just how much control people had over their own actions and I began to observe them more closely.

There was this guy on the plane a few seats to my left that caught my eye. He looked at me and then because he saw me looking at him, he looked away quickly. I believe this is what Hildegarda is describing above.

The plane hit turbulence and dropped a few feet. I absolutely hate that feeling and for a moment felt fear. The many people in the plane also responded accordingly from the surprise/fear of this. I looked around the plane and the same guy I mentioned before had the strangest look on his face. It wasn't fear at all but a smile. The smile was distinctly malevolent, satisfied and hungry. As if it were feeding off everyone's fear in the plane.

Now comes the questions. Was I projecting? Was I seeing something in him that is in myself? Was I seeing something that was a permanent fixture or was it "just passing through"? I don't know.

I think this is more what RedFox and I a speaking to which I may also be the same as what you're mentioning with the narcissists. If that is the case, I wonder what I must look like at times. It's not just that I'm seeing something. At the same time, I'm also perceiving what the person is feeling at the same time (this may be an incorrect assumption). I hope that clarifies it a bit.

truth seeker said:

It wasn't fear at all but a smile. The smile was distinctly malevolent, satisfied and hungry. As if it were feeding off everyone's fear in the plane.

Now comes the questions. Was I projecting?

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Hi truth seeker. My take, fwiw, is that considering that you describe his smile with such seeming certainty, it is probably an unconscious projection. In other words, the adjectives you use to describe his smile may simply be the abstractions constructed by your nervous system as a joint phenomenon between the observer and the observed. I think when we do that "itsa this", or "itsa that" with our sensory data, more often than not, we're probably saying more about ourselves (our thinking-through the energetic perceptual transaction) than we are about the objective reality.
Of course, I could be wrong and it could be as you say, so I certainly can't say for sure.

truth seeker said:

Was I seeing something in him that is in myself?

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I don't see why we can't have symbols (within us) for ideas like "malevolent, satisfied and hungry" that can be compared to what we see in order to discern the reality of what we think we're reading. It seems to me that we just have to keep in mind that we are doing a conscious projection (most likely, I guess, unless we're capable of direct knowledge), that needs to be referred back to reality to be tested against relevant observations and experience and to be corrected/adjusted accordingly.

Does that make any sense?