Thinking, Fast And Slow
- Thread starter obyvatel
- Start date
Reading about the unconscious and how much of a machine we really are surely makes it a bit gloomy, but mostly I was just very curious and interested to read all those studies done and what can be concluded from them, and trying to apply those things to myself. It helps me to think about my situations in different ways. Having some more information on how the human mind operates, actually gives me a little bit of hope. Changing for the better is partly based on understanding one's machine right?
mcb
The Living Force
While I already commented about this earlier, I can't overstate how much Castaneda/Don Juan's "predator's mind" comes to my mind after reading the various books (and others) about the mind that we have been discussing lately. It first struck me a few weeks ago, and each new book has reinforced his point.
I see this on two levels. First, I see the evidence of an active predator that influences life on this planet. But I also see that we are biologically descended from other predator species, and that we literally have their mental machinery.
I have been considering these things for a very long time, but the recent reading has helped to bring the picture into sharper focus, partly by supplying new information and partly by refreshing older learnings. It seems (as I learned early in my esoteric study) that not only do we not particularly want to look closely at our behavior, but that when we do look, we are quite adept at forgetting what we saw.
It is interesting to watch the reactions of some of the forum members, and to see minds struggling "not to see." Of course we all react this way to a considerable extent, whether we show or hide it, but it is possible to make a breakthrough, after which it becomes OK for one to observe and acknowledge what one does. You need to be willing to see, experience, and acknowledge that you have this "predator's mind" or it will not really be visible to you. In a sense, you must be willing to "be" the predator that you are in order to ultimately become something else.
Once you see what you are doing, you can play around with it. This is what I was suggesting in the following exchange:
So we have a statement, "I am no longer a blind pig...," but other statements, other versions of our internal narratives, are possible. Instead of assuming that the internal narrative is right and true, which it assuredly is not, you can try telling the story other ways and perhaps discover what might open up to you by thinking differently.
I see this on two levels. First, I see the evidence of an active predator that influences life on this planet. But I also see that we are biologically descended from other predator species, and that we literally have their mental machinery.
I have been considering these things for a very long time, but the recent reading has helped to bring the picture into sharper focus, partly by supplying new information and partly by refreshing older learnings. It seems (as I learned early in my esoteric study) that not only do we not particularly want to look closely at our behavior, but that when we do look, we are quite adept at forgetting what we saw.
It is interesting to watch the reactions of some of the forum members, and to see minds struggling "not to see." Of course we all react this way to a considerable extent, whether we show or hide it, but it is possible to make a breakthrough, after which it becomes OK for one to observe and acknowledge what one does. You need to be willing to see, experience, and acknowledge that you have this "predator's mind" or it will not really be visible to you. In a sense, you must be willing to "be" the predator that you are in order to ultimately become something else.
Once you see what you are doing, you can play around with it. This is what I was suggesting in the following exchange:
Megan said:
So we have a statement, "I am no longer a blind pig...," but other statements, other versions of our internal narratives, are possible. Instead of assuming that the internal narrative is right and true, which it assuredly is not, you can try telling the story other ways and perhaps discover what might open up to you by thinking differently.
Megan said:
Yup. We go to sleep and dream we are magicians...
Megan said:
Exactly so. You have to look long and hard to really see yourself, to see all the lies, not only to others, but the self, and realize, as Mme. de Salzmann wrote, that you are TWO. Realizing that, really coming to terms with it, can help an awful lot in forgiving the self when you see how much hurt you have caused throughout your life. Because once you have seen and suffered the seeing - and it can come close to killing you - then you have to let go of that suffering. I'm still working on it.
Psalehesost said:
Although I'm not sure that the essence corresponds to the adaptive unconscious and the personality to the conscious mind (but it's an intriguing idea), I had a similar thought as Psalehesost when reading go2's post. The centers do not correspond to Systems 1 and 2. From reading 'Strangers to Ourselves' (ordered the other book but not arrived yet), my understanding is that emotions and thoughts can happen in both the conscious and unconscious mind.
As for the use of Kahneman's ideas for economics, game theory, etc., I don't see a problem there. Others use the information to enslave people, we use it to liberate us. Would you ignore a diamond because it's in the mud?
Megan said:
Yes, I can read the book proving I am a machine and pretend the knowledge will transform me into a conscious being. It will be another vain and arrogant lie. It is an entirely different thing to suffer failure trying to stand apart from the machine´s demands, temptations, desires, habits, etc. with a new narrative. Non identification with the machine is when the real war starts, not when I read a book. The experience of failure trying to control the levers of the machine is the beginning of real understanding of the terror of the situation for us all.
Oh yes, Megan. Let´s try playing around with the levers of power controlling the machine. That is the line of force of my post. We are playing with the Devil, as we used to say. Well, the Devil never forgets a trick and he will eat flies when he is hungry. The predator´s mind will add knowledge protects and I am a machine to its resume and continue business as usual. The machine will pleasantly polish apples all day long, while a new and barely conscious I is smothered in its sleep.
All that being said for effect; your suggestion to step away from identification with black OR white thinking and play with a black AND white narrative and their mingling, may begin to find a point of balance for real I somewhere between black AND white or is it hovering above the mechanical alternatives either black or white. I don´t have the answers how to proceed beyond the shock of real understanding that go2 is a machine, discovered by experimenting with the levers of power in the black OR white machine. It is a matter of being, not a matter of knowledge. I wish to have being to remember and do what I know. Unhappy man that I am, I know and cannot do. Perhaps, a little humor would help.
On a little different line, I understand Laura´s contention that she transforms anger into a force to do. I am far from mastering such an elemental force, but it seems aim must be part of Laura´s answer. I aim to be a good guest within the hospitality of the forum. When I forget this aim, the force of anger to outrage, hurt, and control is apparent when I reread my words. I also see through the fog, that I am almost certainly an emotionally centered man. It was feeling Kahneman giving the Nobel Prize Lecture that was the origin of force for these comments. I held the post for many weeks, before playing the Devil´s song. I am grateful to the forum network for transforming this line of force into something positive to add to our knowledge and being.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
go2 said:
go2, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand your thinking in this thread. In fact, it reads like you're in full destruction mode, entirely missing the crux of the matter - and vehemently doing so. No one has EVER said that reading a book will transform a person. It is only in the application of knowledge gained by reading books that anything changes.
So - what is really going on with you? Are you behaving so petulantly for a reason, or just because you can't get over yourself enough to actually try to move past the self-pity into something more useful?
truth seeker
The Living Force
go2 said:
So it sounds as if you feel as if it's useless to try because with all that you feel you have learned, you don't know how to utilize it? Perhaps this makes you feel as if there's something "unfixable" or "wrong" with you? Know that this is common and that although many times we can't see our own progress, it's there.
Maybe there were times in your past where you were made to feel as though you had to always have the answers? Unfortunately this isn't possible. If I'm off, please correct me. If it's true, why not share this burden so you don't have to be alone in it?
mcb
The Living Force
go2 said:
That's very possible. Or you could try _http://www.lifesucksbigtime.com, where you get to vote on other people's problems. It's brimming with stories.
The trouble with all these stories is that they aren't true. Some of it might be true; who knows? But when you believe all the stuff your mind is creating, good news or bad news -- you're screwed. At least until you stop believing it. Forget the levers of power -- just find the mute button.
A
andi
Guest
Go2, from what you wrote it looks to me like you are punishing yourself for being what you are. Wasn't that the point, to find out about yourself? If you feel you are so "bad", why not look back where you began -any difference?
A
andi
Guest
truth seeker said:
Second that.
A
andi
Guest
If I fallow what Laura said earlier, looks like the predator mind we are fighting, this alien installation, could well be the machine in us, or what make us the machines we are. If we are souls, then it is our personality that is the alien installation and we fight as essence to bring the personality to its origins. OSIT
go2 said:
As G. wrote:
"There are two lines along which man's development proceeds, the line of knowledge and the line of being. In right evolution the line of knowledge and the line of being develop simultaneously, parallel to, and helping one another. But if the line of knowledge gets too far ahead of the line of being, or if the line of being gets ahead of the line of knowledge, man’s development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill."
And:
"Without self knowledge, without understanding the working and functions of his machine, man cannot be free, he cannot govern himself and he will always remain a slave."
Buddy
The Living Force
go2 said:
go2, while I agree with you that we can hardly gain a visceral understanding of our mechanical state from books, I'd say we can increase our understanding of some of the mechanics of suffering. That might (or might not) put us in a better position to allow change to happen.
Basically, we can get ourselves into a state where we are holding onto two highly contrasted states of consciousness. At any given moment we're seeing one and being the other and we can throw, or attempt to throw, our awareness back and forth between them. Every time we cross the threshold between these highly contrasted states, a current in our 'sympathy to self' layer can be induced to flow. This is not unlike passing a coil of wire through the poles of a magnet and generating in it an electric current, but only while the coil is positively moving across the lines of force. Of course, in terms of established thought and thinking patterns, naturally the narrator stands ready to interpret and 'explain' everything from some known frame of reference - and sometimes to do this instead of simply looking at what is actually happening.
Owen Barfield's 'Poetic Diction' is a good book to understand this dynamic better, OSIT. Ostensibly written for poetry students, he quite plainly describes these mechanics in terms of "aesthetic appreciation". As a person with an active sense of aesthetic appreciation, this works for me! I've been able to shine this light on my own related internal processes and validate it. And because for me it is real, it becomes easy enough to see the mirror image of this dynamic operating in the negative half of the emotional center. At least this is my figurative expression of the subjective perceptions of this phenomena.
To me, with regard to what you are experiencing, this is how things appear, and for you, this is what I have to offer from the aesthetic angle. From the esoteric angle, I think Megan essentially says something similar here. Wonderful post BTW!
