How Not To Be

Perceval said:

The thing is, I don't see how you have suffered, not in any real way. You had had enough of the Work and Mr. Scott, so you came up with a plan to go back the high life in medicine. You followed through with it and you got it. You got what you wanted, so what's to gripe about? It sounds to me like you are just trying to save face with this forum by presenting your selfish choices in terms of how you've been "cheated" by life etc. etc. That's the attempt to 'have your cake and eat it' once again.

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Well i dont really have much to add to this thread,though this is roughly what has been on my mind since Laura introduced the information regarding Mr Scott. Sometimes simplicity is the way to go rather than rolling and covering one in "Eros Themes" and so on.It is obvious to me that you Psyche have played people who care about you rather than speaking whatever was going through your mind.You say earlier on in this thread that you were glad you were discovered etc.I find that rather yuk to be honest.So you were not going to let the folks at the chateau know until they discovered anything , found you out.They had to do the work to find the truth of what was on your mind.Its easy to say anything once your discovered.I think you should keep it simple and stop hiding behind writings on the"work" The truth after all is simple.I may be way of base , though these are my thoughts at present.

anart said:

Psyche said:

I'm in the fire and won't get active in the forum until I gain more understanding. I hope to contribute to the health section with some research if that is okay.

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Psyche, if you were truly 'in the fire' nothing else would exist for you but that fire right now, certainly not thoughts of 'contributing to the health section'. The juxtaposition of the two sentences above indicate a rather startling disconnect. Or, perhaps more accurately, it indicates that you are using phrases you don't understand like 'in the fire' as you have previously been using extremely emotional phrases with a lack of understanding of the true experience of such emotions.

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The thing is, this means that the cause of my disconnect is that I truly don't love anyone, just myself. What I have felt all this time is not love because obviously the facts speak of a spoiled little kid who had her toy taken away. Basically, I have had a heck of a lot of trouble in reigning my horses because there was no one to reign them. Real love is required to see this entire mess and the results and the desire to reign the horses so the damage will come to an end.

So it is not only "I cannot think with the way I think". I cannot truly feel with the way I feel. I thought I cared about you all, but look at all of this. Who is having the feast here? It is me! I don't know how to love anyone but myself.

Buddy said:

Alana said:

Buddy said:

Psyche said:

Well, anart, let me be so bold as to answer now without much thinking. I feel cheated out of life because of the "Eros theme" which is, I believe, on the public forum. I'm mad at it and as the number of books quoted show, I had spent an INCREDIBLE amount of time trying to figure it out. I have read many more books on the subject and "How to Be an Adult in Relationships" is the same thing all over again as far as I can see.

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I don't know much about the Eros Theme yet, but I applaud the above. That is awesome and a very valuable thing to do--at least for me!

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I don't understand your "applaud" here, Buddy. What Psyche did there was deflect the good advice that anart gave her, and added more self-pity drama. How is that "applaudable" in any way?

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I meant applaud the part in bold as a therapeutic process as opposed to what the words were that she was saying. That process is an element of depth therapy. Done correctly, the narrators interpretation may eventually give way to the real underlying problem and I was saying that my comments were'nt related to the Eros Theme, whatever it is. I'm sorry for any confusion.

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Still, given the context, Psyche could interpret your "applaud" as more food to her ego. Had Alana said nothing, perhaps you would not had clarified. Therefore, it strikes me as a bit of lack of external considering on your part.
I may be wrong of course.

Psyche said:

The thing is, this means that the cause of my disconnect is that I truly don't love anyone, just myself. What I have felt all this time is not love because obviously the facts speak of a spoiled little kid who had her toy taken away. Basically, I have had a heck of a lot of trouble in reigning my horses because there was no one to reign them. Real love is required to see this entire mess and the results and the desire to reign the horses so the damage will come to an end.

So it is not only "I cannot think with the way I think". I cannot truly feel with the way I feel. I thought I cared about you all, but look at all of this. Who is having the feast here? It is me! I don't know how to love anyone but myself.

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And even when you write this, it is still ALL about YOU. How about you have had NO trouble reigning your "horses", but you have been caught "reigning" them to the detriment of others (i.e. manipulating over and over using your oh so dramatic emotions as an excuse), and this has to stop? You are still writing with "Work" terms which meaning there doesn't seem to be any real understanding of.

Psyche said:

I'm in the fire and won't get active in the forum until I gain more understanding. I hope to contribute to the health section with some research if that is okay.

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Well, at least it's clear. Maybe one day it will sink in, maybe not.

I think that "in the fire" in this context translates as: "I've been caught, I have no other tactic to use to run away/elicit pity, so see you later!". In the same token, "until I gain more understanding" means "until I find a better source of food/come up with new and more believable excuses so that I can have my cake and eat it too", as Perceval put it. But at least Psyche has made a choice, which is good IF that's what she wants: Not to Be, and keep doing what she has done, i.e., not think about others but herself.

Speaking of mirrors, I think this is something very common, when someone says he/she wants the truth, but in reality doesn't. They want to control the amount of truth given, they want to limit people's feedback so as to keep feeding or preserve their image, they want to have the last word, even when it concerns themselves, in spite of the fact that others have just made it clear the person doesn't know herself! They may mirror back, agree or whatever, but there is no self-reflexion because they don't seem to be able to go there. If it gets to be too much, they decide to take some time off.

In the end, it comes down to what Laura wrote earlier in this thread:

Now, undoubtedly, there are those who consider our methods of helping a person deal with their false personality as being hard. As Mouravieff points out, the process of the Mirror can be very UNPLEASANT "socially" speaking. However, if a person has read the cognitive science threads, if that person understands the work of Gurdjieff and Mouravieff and how that actually relates to modern cognitive science which has a lot of experimental backing, then that person will understand fully that the Gurdjieffian principles of observing the self, learning about the machine, facing the truth and reality of how they actually appear/relate to others IN THE EYES/PERCEPTION of those others, then that person will know the usefulness of this method. It is probably one of the few methods - or even the ONLY method - that actually WORKS.

But only if the person can accept the Mirror, and accept the ideas outlined in The First Initiation.

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OSIT.

Iron said:

Buddy said:

Alana said:

Buddy said:

Psyche said:

Well, anart, let me be so bold as to answer now without much thinking. I feel cheated out of life because of the "Eros theme" which is, I believe, on the public forum. I'm mad at it and as the number of books quoted show, I had spent an INCREDIBLE amount of time trying to figure it out. I have read many more books on the subject and "How to Be an Adult in Relationships" is the same thing all over again as far as I can see.

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I don't know much about the Eros Theme yet, but I applaud the above. That is awesome and a very valuable thing to do--at least for me!

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I don't understand your "applaud" here, Buddy. What Psyche did there was deflect the good advice that anart gave her, and added more self-pity drama. How is that "applaudable" in any way?

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I meant applaud the part in bold as a therapeutic process as opposed to what the words were that she was saying. That process is an element of depth therapy. Done correctly, the narrators interpretation may eventually give way to the real underlying problem and I was saying that my comments were'nt related to the Eros Theme, whatever it is. I'm sorry for any confusion.

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Still, given the context, Psyche could interpret your "applaud" as more food to her ego. Had Alana said nothing, perhaps you would not had clarified. Therefore, it strikes me as a bit of lack of external considering on your part.
I may be wrong of course.

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Not only that, but Buddy is bringing psychoanalytic processes in a discussion that clearly does not warrant them. If any psychoanalytic process is ever helpful or practical in any context, that is. Writing down the contents of our thoughts as they come could be useful in our personal journal, but then we are going to give them the interpretation we want to give them in the end, no? "Can't think with the way that we think" and all that. And why take that road when things can be much simpler?

Strangers to Ourselves said:

In fact there is evidence that it can be counterproductive to look inward too much.We will see evidence that introspection about feelings can cause people to make unwise decisions and to become more confused about how they feel. To be clear, I am not disparaging all kinds of introspection. Socrates was only partly wrong that the “unexamined life is not worth living.” The key is the kind of self-examination people perform, and the extent to which people attempt to know themselves solely by looking inward, versus looking outward at their own behavior and how others react to them.

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No need to divert this thread any longer, though.

No more diversions by me after this. Iron was pretty much on the mark.

[quote author=Iron]
Still, given the context, Psyche could interpret your "applaud" as more food to her ego. Had Alana said nothing, perhaps you would not had clarified. Therefore, it strikes me as a bit of lack of external considering on your part.
I may be wrong of course.
[/quote]

You may be more right than wrong--especially about the context part. I was still feeling thrilled about all that info Laura posted on Transpersonification and still had related thought streams going on in my head.

Thanks, Iron, and again, please excuse the interruption.

anart said:

Psyche said:

I'm in the fire and won't get active in the forum until I gain more understanding. I hope to contribute to the health section with some research if that is okay.

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Psyche, if you were truly 'in the fire' nothing else would exist for you but that fire right now, certainly not thoughts of 'contributing to the health section'. The juxtaposition of the two sentences above indicate a rather startling disconnect. Or, perhaps more accurately, it indicates that you are using phrases you don't understand like 'in the fire' as you have previously been using extremely emotional phrases with a lack of understanding of the true experience of such emotions.

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Perhaps what Psyche needed was for the French police to threaten jail for the "Eros theme". That's basically what happened to me. That grab for the pleasure seeking gold is the Fall. My first post after my fall was three days later so one can limp here afterwards but the "burn" is kind of inside while it's more shock and numb overall really. The only reason to come here was the general awe for this place; it's like the only thing left, that Castaneda awe thing is quite literal. My only little voice about my problem was this from two of my three notes immediately following my fall:

Gang Stalking, Synchronicity, understanding women, etc. are all ideas threatening to derail me. Even if I had a nice plan before this incarnation, even most "heroes" fail as Laura has mentioned. It's the horror of our situation. I'm just hoping to avoid getting my soul crushed.

Yeah I think many of the "stars" like the rest of us at some level know they are giving in to urges for something not overly good and then another part of them is left to pick up the pieces on the battlefield and it's sometimes just too hard on the soul with that not good feeling inside.

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Afterwards it really is discipline and control to keep bad things out of your field and doing good things even if it feels forced not genuine love, logic, or courage. I'm really though not overly sure I'm doing the optimal thing with my incarnation in its current situation.

Buddy said:

I meant applaud the part in bold as a therapeutic process as opposed to what the words were that she was saying. That process is an element of depth therapy. Done correctly, the narrators interpretation may eventually give way to the real underlying problem and I was saying that my comments were'nt related to the Eros Theme, whatever it is. I'm sorry for any confusion.

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The 'Eros Theme' that Psyche brought up here refers to this thread she started last year. You actually contributed to it recently.

Alana said:

Not only that, but Buddy is bringing psychoanalytic processes in a discussion that clearly does not warrant them. If any psychoanalytic process is ever helpful or practical in any context, that is. Writing down the contents of our thoughts as they come could be useful in our personal journal, but then we are going to give them the interpretation we want to give them in the end, no? "Can't think with the way that we think" and all that. And why take that road when things can be much simpler?

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The Eros Theme thread, curiously enough, is all about 'psychoanalytic processes'. Reading it now in view of what has come to light, it takes on the appearance of a flight into fantasy, which is interesting given that Psyche resuscitated it here.

AWWTF said:

Well i dont really have much to add to this thread,though this is roughly what has been on my mind since Laura introduced the information regarding Mr Scott. Sometimes simplicity is the way to go rather than rolling and covering one in "Eros Themes" and so on.It is obvious to me that you Psyche have played people who care about you rather than speaking whatever was going through your mind.You say earlier on in this thread that you were glad you were discovered etc.I find that rather yuk to be honest.So you were not going to let the folks at the chateau know until they discovered anything , found you out.They had to do the work to find the truth of what was on your mind.Its easy to say anything once your discovered.I think you should keep it simple and stop hiding behind writings on the"work" The truth after all is simple.I may be way of base , though these are my thoughts at present.

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Spot on AWWTF. Forget Jungian psychology for a minute; we're only interested in the truth.

Ailén said:

And even when you write this, it is still ALL about YOU. How about you have had NO trouble reigning your "horses", but you have been caught "reigning" them to the detriment of others (i.e. manipulating over and over using your oh so dramatic emotions as an excuse), and this has to stop? You are still writing with "Work" terms which meaning there doesn't seem to be any real understanding of.

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I was not near to the level of doing like all of you did. It made me feel pretty bad. I craved for admiration for doing stuff. I rationalized it with lies towards my mainstream doctor life. I tried hard to convince you all that it was to open up opportunities. I lied to myself and to all of you whereas I was escaping from the heat. I would see you doing stuff and resented it. I did not open myself up towards you when you sincerely asked. Neither towards Mr. Scott nor anyone else.

Ailén said:

Psyche said:

I'm in the fire and won't get active in the forum until I gain more understanding. I hope to contribute to the health section with some research if that is okay.

Click to expand...

Well, at least it's clear. Maybe one day it will sink in, maybe not.

I think that "in the fire" in this context translates as: "I've been caught, I have no other tactic to use to run away/elicit pity, so see you later!". In the same token, "until I gain more understanding" means "until I find a better source of food/come up with new and more believable excuses so that I can have my cake and eat it too", as Perceval put it. But at least Psyche has made a choice, which is good IF that's what she wants: Not to Be, and keep doing what she has done, i.e., not think about others but herself.

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I would so like to pass this threshold.

I can see this as it is mirrored back to me:

Datum 1: Feel bad because I don't get the respect and admiration I want in my current position. ----> Goal set: Move to Spain and work at hospital in ER. ER doctors get respect and admiration.
which leads to:
Datum 2: Would feel bad if my motives are questioned and I'm not supported. ----> Goal set: Convince self and others of good motives and being deserving of support.
which leads to:
Datum 3: Would feel bad if I look bad for leaving everyone and that would burn bridges that could be useful initially and later. ---> Goal set: Take Mr. Scott along as a bridge and extra support - at least temporarily.
which leads to:
Datum 4: Feel bad because my motives are being questioned. ----> Goal set: Continue on path but agree with whatever is said so that bad feelings go away and regain respect and admiration.

But I'm having trouble in seeing these ones in bold among my rationalizations:

Laura said:

Actually, having said that, I think there is another datum and goal that may override all others:

Datum 5: I'm in a relationship with Mr. Scott and I find that he doesn't excite me the way I want to be excited but if I dump him, people will think that I engaged in the relationship just to get to the Chateau, I'll lose admiration, respect, financial support etc. ----> Goal set: Create reasons to move to Spain, but do so in such a way that I continue to receive support. Make it look like I want Mr. Scott to come too, but make sure things are arranged to that I can ease out of the relationship by absence. Who knows? I may meet someone who excites me and will give me the support I want/need and that will change everything.

Then:
Datum 6: I'm in Spain and find I've jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. ---> Goal set: Get active on the forum to fish for support, admiration, respect, and possibly another juicy Knight in Armor to save me.

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My thinking was "grow up so I can finally learn to be at the Château and learn how to be with Mr. Scott".

I arrived at the house using a screen to relieve me of facing myself. But when reading the latest book "How to Be an Adult in Relationships" it became clearer that I should never be with anybody. I'm messed up. It has been hard to let it sink in.

What I am realizing is that I have to let to go ever seeing you all again and Mr. Scott because that is what has fed my predator mind and its behavior. It is clear I don't know how to love you all and my greatest hope was to learn how to do so, at least stop hurting you all. And it still is my hope, though I know I'm not a trustable person.

Psyche, you have written that you always get what you want and gave examples to prove it. So I think we can assume that you operate this way - whether consciously or not - all the time.

Obviously, you just simply wanted to move on and do different stuff. Psyche, there isn't anything wrong with that. The problems only come in when 1) you involve and hurt other people by pretending things that are not true; 2) you take that pretense to an unseemly level by avowing interest and participation in the kind of work we do which is supposed to deal with that sort of thing, while actually doing everything that is contrary to that work.

Had you sat down with me one day and said: "I don't think this relationship is right, and I don't think I should be living here and trying to do something that really doesn't interest me that much... here's what I want to do"... I would have been perfectly happy to organize whatever support was necessary to assist such a transition. Everyone else in the house would have done so as well. Oh, sure, there might have been some hurt, some unpleasant situations for a period; but you know perfectly well that we deal with that sort of thing matter-of-factly and decently when faced with it.

Was the thought of just admitting you were wrong, that you declared yourself in one direction and found out it wasn't what you wanted so terrible? Was the thought of "losing face" what got in the way? Of being seen as possibly "imperfect" because you changed your mind?

Because, in the end, that IS what this is all about: you just simply changed your mind and went into an elaborate manipulation/charade to mask that fact.

Psyche, you don't have to live here and be in a relationship with Scott to be valued and okay. You never did. Just being honest and direct and stating what you wanted and/or needed would have been so much easier in the long run even if there was some awkwardness. It would have been a damn sight better than all this conniption, drama and carrying-on, and a lot less miserable for all involved.

Do you see that?

And still, with all the energy everyone has put into this, you still haven't been able to just say simply and cleanly: I changed my mind. Bringing up the incessant longing of the "eros theme" as an excuse is just the icing on the cake. Don't you get it? You are entitled to change your mind as much as you want to! Changing your mind, and/or admitting you made a mistake IS PART OF BEING NORMAL. With additional data, everything can change. You had the additional data about living here, being in a relationship with Scott, and that changed your view. THAT IS OKAY. Stop the BS! Stop lying to us, and most of all, stop lying to yourself: it rots the neurons.

Repeat after me: "I thought I wanted one thing but after I had it for awhile, I didn't want it anymore and I wanted something different. Yes, that probably makes me a fickle bitch in terms of romance, but so be it. Next guy I get involved with, I'll warn him in advance that I do not know anything for sure and we ought not to get serious. And the minute I don't want to be there anymore, I won't play head games with the guy anymore, I'll just be up-front about it: 'It was fun while it lasted, but time to move on.'" At least that is honest and clean even if it is not very nice.

Okay, so you aren't a very nice person because you don't really think about others at all. So what? Be honest about it. That at least gives you a virtue.

It might mean that you do things for others for reasons other than pure service, maybe a combination of liking research (pleasure for the self) combined with liking to be praised. Okay, be honest about it.

You see what I'm trying to say here? You need, above all things, to know yourself as you are. If you don't like that person, then you can work from there. But you can't work at all if you don't know what material you have to start with.

Psyche, someone here told me some time ago, that I, too, tend to use dramatic and emotionally charged words to blow things a little bit out of proportion.
The word "dramaqueen" fits quite good here and everytime I catch myself falling into this behaviour again, I say to myself "here comes the dramaqueen". Its funny because first I felt ashamed of it, made excuses like "but it IS dramatic, you just can fathom the weight of it" and so on, but now it is like a joke, the good old dramaqueen show up and play its role. I can laugh about it, because it is just a mask, and a pretty childish one. When it is discovert, it is not so difficult to stop it, at least for the moment.

The thing is, first you have to admit it to yourself, not to others. The network can point out what it can see, but as long as you don't see it in yourself too and admit it's presents, every word about it is a mere lip service. It really is like Castaneda said, a warrior must not take himself serious.

To be honest with yourself is a very difficult thing. Everytime when it comes to a certain decision, specially regarding woman, I try to ask myself "whats your real reason?" and even this question is only in my head and noone can hear it, it is hard to answer it honest because the answer is cruel, cold and completely self centered. It is difficult to even formulate the answer straight because my mind tries to distract me to not think about it like it really is. But there is only one truth and every other "truth" that say "yes but...." is a lie to cover the painful truth.

I don't know if this helps or even comes near whats going on with you. I somehow don't feel qualified to make such a statement, but to read whats happend to you and the whole crew really shocked me so I at least have to try to share my part.

Edit: I just saw, that Laura said it way better.

Laura said:

You see what I'm trying to say here? You need, above all things, to know yourself as you are. If you don't like that person, then you can work from there. But you can't work at all if you don't know what material you have to start with.

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I admit I haven't a clue of how to be honest. Head games is all what my brain is all about and what I'm all about as a result. This thread has been quite uncomfortable and I just continue to run the very same head games to make it stop and it won't. I'm tired of being such a manipulative person. I want to learn how to be a genuine person who doesn't play head games. My behavior here has ruled me all my life. I don't seem to be able to say anything in a straightforward way. I've been ruled by the manipulations you had all witnessed to the extent that I don't know what I am or what I really like anymore. It is just a constant changing thing depending on how comfortable I am or not and then it is all head games again to make that feeling stop. I want to be able to live a life without that BS. You never know how is it going to be like with me because I just change my mind all the time. It is just busy in trying to calm me down depending on how I perceive I've been treated. It has always been about me. Always. Others are just those who are the culprits of me getting hurt or uncomfortable because I really don't give a damn about others.

"I thought I wanted one thing but after I had it for awhile, I didn't want it anymore and I wanted something different. Yes, that probably makes me a fickle bitch in terms of romance, but so be it. Next guy I get involved with, I'll warn him in advance that I do not know anything for sure and we ought not to get serious. And the minute I don't want to be there anymore, I won't play head games with the guy anymore, I'll just be up-front about it: 'It was fun while it lasted, but time to move on.'"

I want to be able to learn how to be honest. I want to be able to live without fear of who I am or what I am or what I'm made of or what my hopes and wishes are. And I want to be able to accept myself as I am and change my mind all the freaking time if I want to and not be afraid of that nor run head games because I did, but admit it and say it in straightforward way. That would be something!

I have never considered honesty to be something that was “learned”. This struck me as an odd statement. I have always considered honesty as a choice. Sometimes the choice to be less than honest is either for external consideration of others or strategic enclosure. But when surrounded by folks who have your best interest at heart, being honest and sincere should be the norm.

At this point, I would think a sincere apology would be in order, instead of continuing on about you and your head games. Perhaps you can consider those who were hurt by your actions, at least for a moment?

It seems like you are over-thinking this whole thing and trying to find excuses and in doing so, creating more stress and making a mountain out of a mole hill. You made the choice to take a job in Spain, so just do it to the best of your ability. If helping others is truly your aim, there should be ample opportunity in an Emergency Room.

Lilou said:

At this point, I would think a sincere apology would be in order, instead of continuing on about you and your head games.

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Actually, I dunno if apology is warranted for being mechanical and run by programs. i.e. "They are their own punishment." Should a dog apologize for being a dog...?

Psyche said:

I admit I haven't a clue of how to be honest.

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That is the Great Work! :) It is a voyage of self-discovery, excuse the cliché.



I think this thread helps with "taxing the inner petty tyrant with control and discipline": Doubt and Mental exercises of denial

Lilou said:

I have never considered honesty to be something that was “learned”. This struck me as an odd statement. I have always considered honesty as a choice. Sometimes the choice to be less than honest is either for external consideration of others or strategic enclosure. But when surrounded by folks who have your best interest at heart, being honest and sincere should be the norm.

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Good points. By saying she has yet to learn honesty, Psyche seems to be just setting up another excuse NOT to be honest.

It seems like you are over-thinking this whole thing and trying to find excuses and in doing so, creating more stress and making a mountain out of a mole hill. You made the choice to take a job in Spain, so just do it to the best of your ability. If helping others is truly your aim, there should be ample opportunity in an Emergency Room.

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Not so much over-thinking as continuing to obfuscate and shirk responsibility. A lot of words, but not a lot of substance...