Battling thought loops by having an Aim

I'd like to share a few thoughts I've had recently and some observations. Any feedback, corrections, and thoughts welcome :)

I think the concept of thought loops can be another useful tool to observe what's happening in our minds, and how our thoughts relate to our emotions and bodies. In practical terms, I would describe a thought loop as thoughts that

• change our state of mind/trigger a strong emotional reaction in us, whether we are conscious of it or not,
• can be either negative (depressing) or "positive" (trigger happy chemicals), and
• keep us from doing the right thing.

Consider the analogy of a computer program that keeps our "CPU" busy while doing nothing useful - I remember a joke from the 90's, where someone came up with a fake "programming code", making fun of Windows 95 and involving numerous "BusyLoop()" routines. Just found something similar, which goes like this:

Code:

void BusyLoop()
 /* Do nothing loop to kill CPU cycles; added at the
    request of Intel */
 {
  DisplayRandomSubliminalMessage();
  for( int i = 0; i  .05 )
      /* There's plenty of stack space left -- let's
         eat up some more CPU cycles, recursively! */
       BusyLoop();
 }

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I think this is actually an apt analogy for our minds' thought loops: they use up valuable energy while not producing any results! You can replace "Intel" with "nefarious powers", too :) In other words, maybe one could say that thought loops make up what Gurdjieff called the "false personality" and Castenada called the "predator's mind". They keep us in place while burning our energy to "feed the moon". Clearly then, it is something we should learn to avoid or "break through".

Thought loops come in two main "flavors" I think:

Negative thought loops: These are the thoughts that induce a state of despair in us, a state of panic, depression, and hopelessness. Now, some of these feelings are of course justified given the grim state of the world. But what I mean is this: if we add to this by having all kinds of negative thoughts that take a life of their own, such as blaming other people for our own shortcomings, thinking that we can't change anything anyway, judging others and ourselves harshly, thinking we don't deserve anything good, being afraid of something that objectively is no big deal, and so on. These thoughts bog us down, make our minds spin like crazy into lala-land, keep us busy and make us waste our energy on pointless thoughts that have nothing to do with objective reality.

"Positive" thought loops: These thought loops make us feel good, but are as unnecessary and energy-wasting as the negative thought loops. For example, we can get lost in thoughts such as "I'm so great, so speshful, I know it all", we can replay in our minds situations again and again that made us feel good to replicate that feeling, or we can shut out negative aspects of reality because they make us feel uncomfortable and only think about rainbows and unicorns. Interestingly, we can get addicted to our own suffering as well, because suffering makes our bodies lash out "happy chemicals" in order to battle it. So we can indulge in negative thought loops to get a kick out of them, which makes us complaining and engaging in self-pity. This happens for example when we think about how bad our situation is all the time, how bad other people are, or when we create negative fantasies in our minds like imagining the death of a loved one and so on. As Gurdjieff said:

ISOTM said:

Daydreaming of disagreeable, morbid things is very characteristic of the unbalanced state of the human machine, After all, one can understand daydreaming of a pleasant kind and find logical justification for it. Daydreaming of an unpleasant character is an utter absurdity. And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center.

"Observation of the activity of imagination and daydreaming forms a very important part of self-study.

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In other words, thought loops cut us off from objective reality, drain us, and keep us from engaging with life in a positive way. Plus, they make us irritable, lazy, and self-important. I think Gurdjieff gave a good example when he said:

ISOTM said:

There are people who are able to consider not only injustice or the failure of others to value them enough but who are able to consider for example the weather. This seems ridiculous but it is a fact. People are able to consider climate, heat, cold, snow, rain; they can be irritated by the weather, be indignant and angry with it. A man can take everything in such a personal way as though everything in the world had been specially arranged in order to give him pleasure or on the contrary to cause him inconvenience or unpleasantness.

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When I first read this, I thought "now he's taking it too far!", but later, I observed this exact thing happening with myself: I was angry that the weather was as it was and took it personally! In other words, I got into a negative thought loop that everything is bad, everything is out there to get at me, nothing can ever be right... I blamed the weather for my own inability to deal with life and lost tons of energy! It is the age-old motive of man raising his fist towards the sky, blaming God for every inconvenience.

The problem with thought loops is that they are often based on some truth, but put their own spin on it, which makes them very convincing. The predator's mind can be very cunning indeed! This is one of the reasons why we can't trust our own minds - thought loops lead to a gross distortion of reality, even though they may be based on a correct observation. The fact that all this is specific to our individual situation and mindset doesn't help either.

For example, sometimes I read about a concept here on the forum, which then produces thought loops that take some things from the concept, put their spin on it, and use it as a weapon to keep me from doing the right thing in life! Instead of applying the concept in the right context, I keep having thought loops based on the concept that prevent me from moving forward.

So how can we decide whether we should take a particular thought seriously or discard it as a useless thought loop? I think one important method is to ask for robust feedback from others, in other words: networking. Other people can often see much more clearly where our thoughts run amok and become destructive thought loops. The other important part, I think, is to have an Aim.

How an Aim can clean up our minds

Having an Aim is an important concept of the Work: Gurdjieff talked a lot about making an Aim our compass:

ISOTM said:

"It is the same case, only perhaps worse, when a man considers that in his opinion he 'ought' to do something when as a matter of fact he ought not to do so at all. 'Ought' and 'ought not' is also a difficult subject, that is, difficult to understand when a man really 'ought' and when he 'ought not.' This can be approached only from the point of view of 'aim.' When a man has an aim he 'ought' to do only what leads towards his aim and he 'ought not' to do anything that hinders him from going towards his aim.

[...]

A permanent idea of good and evil can be formed in man only in connection with a permanent aim and a permanent understanding. If a man understands that he is asleep and if he wishes to awake, then everything that helps him to awake will be good and everything that hinders him, everything that prolongs his sleep, will be evil. Exactly in the same way will he understand what is good and evil for other people. What helps them to awake is good, what hinders them is evil.

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I think a solid Aim can help a great deal when observing our thought loops - it allows us to decide to a certain extent whether we are dealing with a useful thought or a draining thought loop.

For example, let's say my Aim is to get better at helping others. If I indulge in crazy-making thoughts how I can't do this or that because of person x, my circumstances, that others can do it much better than me etc., this is a thought loop. It drains, it spins, it keeps me from reaching my Aim. I can tell it by just looking at the result it produces: does it help me getting more involved in helping people, becoming more helpful in all spheres of life, or does it block me? The same goes for "positive thought loops": if I indulge in happy-making thoughts, do they help me become more productive in terms of helping people, or do they just burn away my time and energy?

I think having an Aim can give us some perspective, a point of reference by which we can judge our thoughts. Do I keep worrying about something for the whole day? It could be a deception/spin by the predator's mind, even though there may be indeed something to be worried about. But instead of listening to the predator's mind and allowing these thought loops to run freely, I could turn the tides and do something productive, which may even unblock some energy and allow me to break through my thought loops. Oftentimes, I found that in hindsight, those thought loops look rather ridiculous!

Dissociation vs. battling thought loops

In my experience, all this can get tricky because there seems to be a subtle, yet important distinction between overcoming thought loops and dissociating/shutting out. This is where the emotions and body sensations come in: thought loops don't just occur in our heads, they produce strong emotions and sensations. It can be the other way around as well: we may feel something, and then our thought loops/system 2 get into overdrive, interpreting and spinning our feelings.

When we dissociate, like when we click away our time on youtube, play video games, or even just "consume" the forum without truly absorbing the knowledge and applying it, we essentially lose energy and shut out reality, osit. It may deflect our thought loops as well for a while, but they will only come back even stronger after such "binges".

I think the difference between overcoming thought loops and dissociation lies in the connection with our feelings/sensations: when we dissociate, we get sucked into a fantasy world that has nothing to do with reality in order to "get relief". When we overcome thought loops, we strengthen the connection to our body and emotions, get the destructive thought loops out of the way, and engage with reality.

So, if we have negative feelings, I think it's good practice to allow those feelings to flow through us, truly feel them, and observe what's going on in our minds. We might find out how far off our thoughts are, how little they have to do with reality, and that by focusing on an Aim, we can have some control over our actions - even if we are feeling depressed, or if we have all kinds of thought loops running that try to prevent us from going forward. So I think we shouldn't confuse battling thought loops with battling feelings/sensations: our feelings are there to be truly experienced and felt; we shouldn't try to "battle" them with our thoughts. More often than not, I found that my thought loops are the real enemy, not my feelings and emotions.

Of course, this is just one angle to look at it and it is not comprehensive, but I think it can be rather straight-forward and useful to look at it this way in many situations.

Any thoughts?

The "busy loop" has been identified in neuroscience as the activity of the "default mode network" (DMN). Here is a link to a forum discussion on DMN in the context of meditation.

Having an aim is useful to keep one's thoughts focused. Reminding ourselves of the aim constantly is the challenge. The brain needs downtime and that is where a lot of daydreaming comes in. Yet, instead of getting rested, sometimes more energy is burned up in the brain when not focusing on a task. So one aspect of conserving energy is to schedule downtime in a way that is actually refreshing.

For those with very busy minds, simple attention to breath and physical body can break thought loops. Time set apart for mindful physical activity helps foster more groundedness. Another technique is to train oneself to not identify with every thought that forms an image on the screen of the mind especially at idle time. If we do not say "my thought....." but refer to the image in terms of an ongoing process like "thinking about ......", it helps take the position of observer. It is like watching a movie without being immersed in it. If we can do that, we conserve more energy.

It is quite possible that our individual brains do not generate thoughts but rather pick them up like radio receivers. We can choose what thoughts to focus on - and that is related to aim. But it is difficult for our receivers to be tuned to the "aim channel" all the time. This is also natural and due to the way we are constructed. Our aims only take into account the conscious self (or ego) portion of our psyche. There is also the unconscious part of our psyche which, in its normal healthy function, plays a compensatory role to the conscious part. The unconscious thus maintains a homeostatic balance of our physical and psychic organism (by acting through instincts for example). If we get too one sided in the pursuit of our aims, there is a compensatory movement in the unconscious. If we are overly focused on all the stuff that does not work as we think it should (negative thoughts), there can be a compensatory movement where we suddenly get carried away by a rapturous reaction to what would otherwise be a normal human experience (like appreciating some aspect of nature/plants/animals for example). The result is an emotional roller-coaster with high peaks and low troughs. Keeping this in mind, we can formulate an aim that does a better job in maintaining the overall balance of ourselves, conserves energy and gives things their due. Psychological knowledge about the working of the unconscious is quite indispensable towards this end imo.

It's funny, I was journaling about this last night. I remarked how I get lots of negative, or at least unproductive, thought loops; the mechanical reaction I get is to shout them down with other thought loops to try and cancel them out. I may think an envious or judgemental thought about someone and instinctively another thought loop goes, "lies!" This is similar to what's discussed in the book The Mind and The Brain - Jeffrey M. Schwartz & Sharon Begley.

The main thread is how therapists can understand and heal severe OCD patients. But there is a lot more to it. Basically, Schwartz chose OCD because it is a problem that, as opposed to other mental disorders, reflects a clear distinction between what goes on in the brain (physically), and the mind (or observer). The person with OCD can be aware that his or her compulsion is an intrusive thought or impulse that says "wash your hands for the 20th time". Yet, they cannot do much against it at the beginning of their therapy.

So he proposes a "Four-Step program": Relabel, Reattribute, Refocus, Revalue. First, he teaches the patients to really recognize it as an intrusive thought, a defective mechanism. Then he teaches them about where the issue is in their brains. Then, he encourages the patients to think about an alternative behavior, a healthier one instead ("I can go water the roses", or whatever). At the beginning, the patients can't perform the second action. But, with mental exercises and focus, their brain gets used to the second idea, until they actually learn to put it into action.

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This seems like a good way to change unproductive behavior patterns. Applying it simply to thoughts in themselves feels like something's left out. The impression I get (and someone with more education than I please correct me) is that these thoughts are mobilized to solve a problem. But because the thoughts don't really have any relation to reality or criteria for success, they go nowhere. So I tap into my feelings and sensations, and that seems to provide a kind of grounding rod to relate these thoughts to reality.

Say for example, I feel jealous of a coworker who receives more commendations than I. I dislike thinking that kind of thought, but instead of simply saying "no! Bad brain, bad!" I can ask what feelings may underlie that sort of thought. So I sort of feel into it and usually find some kind of emotional need like wanting recognition, respect, etc. Then I simply embrace that that particular emotional need was not met by the situation. So I feel a sadness. But I maintain awareness on the whole of myself: the thoughts, affects, and sensations. There are many other good things going on in life now, so the sadness of a very minor instance means very little. Intellectually I can also dis-identify with the feeling, realizing it's simply a brain chemical reaction that does not serve me, so can only be felt and discharged through embracing and processing it fully alongside the rest of my experience. I hope that makes some sense... I guess you need to aim to evaluate which thoughts and feelings are useful and which are not.

I think that keeping focused on one's aim as well as such techniques as focusing on breathing/non-identifiying with own thoughts may help somewhat. The problem I see is that "aim" is something long-term whereas thought loops come and go many times daily. Instead of focusing on a bigger aim one could focus on more short-term subaims or subtasks (derived from the bigger long-term aim) or just simply focus on what you do NOW.

Here is a relevant excerpt from The Practising mind:

The four “S” words are simplify, small, short, and slow.
...
Simplify. When you work at a specific project or activity, simplify it by
breaking it down into its component sections. Don’t set goals that are too far
beyond your reach. Unrealistic goals create frustration and invite failure, which
can make you doubt your abilities. The success of attaining each simple goal
will generate motivation that propels you along in the process, and you won’t
suffer the mental fatigue you experience when you bite off more than you can
chew.

Small. Be aware of your overall goal, and remember to use it as a rudder or
distant beacon that keeps you on course. But break down the overall goal into
small sections that can be achieved with a comfortable amount of concentration.
You will find that focusing on small sections is easier than focusing on the
entire task and gives you repeatable success.

Smallness, like the other techniques, applies to daily life in general, not just
specific endeavors. It applies just as much to a fitness program as it does to
cleaning the garage on Saturday afternoon, or developing a perspective change
that affords you more patience. Cleaning the garage is an activity that most
would consider worthy of full-scale procrastination. But when it has to be done,
step back and examine your feelings toward the job. You will find that you tend
to see the necessary work-energy in its entirety. You see the whole task ahead
of you, and it looks huge. This viewpoint brings about a lot of judgments and
negative emotions. You are full of anticipation as you find yourself saying
things like, “There are so many things I have to move. Should I keep this or get
rid of it? Will I ever need that thing over there again? The whole garage is a
mess, and cleaning it means lots of time, lots of energy, and lots of decisions I
don’t feel like making after a week of work. I just want to relax.” All this
internal dialogue has nothing to do with cleaning the garage, and yet it is
exhausting you.

You simplify the task greatly when you break it down into small sections: “I
am going to start in this corner over here and clean just to the window. That’s
all. I will not concern myself with the stuff over by the door or up in the rafters.
Just this corner right here is all I will contend with.” Now you’re dealing with a
little task that doesn’t have the overwhelming qualities of the whole job.
Short. Now you can also bring short into the equation: “I’m going to work at
cleaning the garage for forty-five minutes a day over the next few days until it is
completely clean.” You can survive just about anything for forty-five minutes.
You have to deal with only one corner of the garage for forty-five minutes, and
you’ll be done for the day. You look at your watch and walk away from the task
at the end of the forty-five minutes, feeling in control and satisfied that your
goal of a clean garage is flowing toward you. No frustration is involved. You
have simplified the task by breaking it down into small segments and asking
yourself to focus for only a short period of time. You are practicing the art of
perfect garage cleaning.

Slow. Incorporating slowness into your process is a paradox. What I mean by
slow is that you work at a pace that allows you to pay attention to what you are
doing. This pace will differ according to your personality and the task in which
you are involved. If you are washing the car, you move the sponge in your hand
at a pace slow enough to allow you to observe your actions in detail. This will
differ from, say, the slow pace at which you learn a new computer program. If
you are aware of what you are doing, then you are probably working at the
appropriate pace. The paradox of slowness is that you will find you accomplish
the task more quickly and with less effort because you are not wasting energy.

Another interesting aspect of deliberate slowness is the way it changes your
perception of time’s passage. Because all your energy goes into what you are
doing, you lose your sense of time.

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Besides I also think that it's much more important to find the cause (which is usually unconscious) of the most repetetive thought loops. Just focusing on something else may not release the stored unconscious energy which fuels these thought loops. Jung called this stored unconscious energy "complexes" as far as I understood:

"Complexes are psychic fragments which have split off owing to traumatic influences or certain incompatible tendencies. As the association experiments prove, complexes interfere with the intentions of the will and disturb the conscious performance: they produce disturbances of memory and blockages in the flow of association; they appear and disappear according to their own laws; they can temporarily obsess consciousness, or influence speech and action in an unconscious way. In a word, complexes behave like independent beings, a fact especially evident in abnormal states of mind. In the voices heard by the insane they even take on a personal ego-character like that of the spirits who manifest themselves through automatic writing and similar techniques." (The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche, Collected Works, Vol. 8, p. 121.)

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Source:_https://endofthegame.net/2012/03/14/jungian-psychology-glossary-of-key-concepts/

Thank you obyvatel for sharing your thoughts. Let me try to rephrase some of the things you said and add a few thoughts to see if I understood you correctly:

obyvatel said:

The "busy loop" has been identified in neuroscience as the activity of the "default mode network" (DMN). Here is a link to a forum discussion on DMN in the context of meditation.

Click to expand...

One way to battle thought loops is to practice meditation, especially the kind of meditation that helps us focus the mind, such as the technique Laura recommends here. We can then increase our happiness by consciously re-adjusting our focus when it shifts into mind-wandering. It may also increase our willpower and allows us to focus at the task at hand.

However, there are thoughts that are very much connected to feelings/sensations, which hit us hard when we have these specific thoughts. The trained ability to refocus our attention allows us to avoid these thoughts so that they get out of the way. They don't solve the problem though that when we do think of something that triggers our feelings, we can get derailed. Eventually, we have to deal with the underlying issue and "be okay" with the feelings/sensations, while "decoupling" them from our thoughts - in other words, recognizing that our thoughts may be wrong and that they may be just triggered by our feelings and vice-versa.

That being said, if we are able to "still the chatter" in our minds, there is more space for insights to come, for receiving signals from our unconscious/conscience/instincts. After all, daydreaming and running thought loops completely decouples us from these sources. The trick is, then, to strengthen the connection to our emotions and bodies, to be truly able to feel even negative emotions while still maintaining a relaxed mind, and without those emotions producing thought loops. That way, we can better listen to the signals we receive from our emotions/bodily sensations, which have a better connection to our unconscious, and escape the negative feedback loop that goes on between thoght loops and feelings/sensations.

obyvatel said:

Having an aim is useful to keep one's thoughts focused. Reminding ourselves of the aim constantly is the challenge. The brain needs downtime and that is where a lot of daydreaming comes in. Yet, instead of getting rested, sometimes more energy is burned up in the brain when not focusing on a task. So one aspect of conserving energy is to schedule downtime in a way that is actually refreshing.

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Indeed, busy thoughts are very draining, and this state is, of course, the opposite of resting. But is it just the thoughts themselves that drain us, or is it the associated feelings/sensations, or both? I found that once I'm able to separate my feelings and thoughts - both feeling the sensations and observing my thoughts at the same time -, it is far less draining. The feeling seems to "flow through me", but doesn't do great harm. The thoughts may come and go, but don't seem to do much harm either.

As for the aim, yes, remembering it is the crux of the matter. I think that's why shocks are so useful in the Work: they produce such a strong feeling/sensation that ideally, we will forever remember the "taste" of it if we managed to self-observe during the shock and not be carried away completely by it. (Maybe that is the reason why Gurdjieff said it's important to provide just the right amount of shock to the student, if I remember correctly.) So, whenever a sensation with a similar "taste" comes up in the future, we instantly remember the shock, and thus remember ourselves. It is the most important "alarm clock" for us. Again, it seems to come down to the connection between thoughts and feelings. Just as you said:

obyvatel said:

Another technique is to train oneself to not identify with every thought that forms an image on the screen of the mind especially at idle time. If we do not say "my thought....." but refer to the image in terms of an ongoing process like "thinking about ......", it helps take the position of observer. It is like watching a movie without being immersed in it. If we can do that, we conserve more energy.

Click to expand...

I would add that this technique is especially important and helpful when we are under stress, have negative thought loops, or are in a state of shock and panic. At idle time, it can help us refocus, and tap into energy ressources to do something useful instead of needlessly burning energy by running thought loops.

obyvatel said:

For those with very busy minds, simple attention to breath and physical body can break thought loops. Time set apart for mindful physical activity helps foster more groundedness.

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Yes indeed, I found that physical exercise like basic yoga/pilates or weight-lifting is extremely important to stay "grounded", as are breathing exercises. This also ties in with the need for a good diet I think - when I eat something bad/too many carbs and so on, I can barely function, and forget myself much more easily. However, I also found that this is just one part of the puzzle - sometimes when I'm "triggered", no amount of breathing and body work seems to work. But it sure helps.

What I found to be of supreme importance is to recognize my feelings/sensations as something that goes on in my body, but triggers certain thoughts, which in turn triggers more feelings/sensations. Maybe this is the real meaning of "thought loop": a reinforcing feedback-loop of negative energy, oscillating between our intellectual center and our emotional/physical center at a "negative frequency", producing chaos, panic, and depression.

Once we become aware of this and manage to break this cycle, our centers begin to resonate on a different frequency. We detect negative feelings, but they don't produce negative thoughts anymore (and vice-versa), but lead us to act in a positive way: they propel us to action, to study the negative feeling at hand, share our findings, or just feel it without listening to it - instead, we do the right thing the situation demands. Indeed, these negative feelings provide us with a good reminder to act towards our aim. That way, we transduce negative energies into positive energies - a positive feedback loop that produces positive energy by resonating on the right frequency, so to speak.

obyvatel said:

It is quite possible that our individual brains do not generate thoughts but rather pick them up like radio receivers. We can choose what thoughts to focus on - and that is related to aim. But it is difficult for our receivers to be tuned to the "aim channel" all the time. This is also natural and due to the way we are constructed. Our aims only take into account the conscious self (or ego) portion of our psyche. There is also the unconscious part of our psyche which, in its normal healthy function, plays a compensatory role to the conscious part. The unconscious thus maintains a homeostatic balance of our physical and psychic organism (by acting through instincts for example). If we get too one sided in the pursuit of our aims, there is a compensatory movement in the unconscious.

Click to expand...

Yes, we are prone to forgetting ourselves. And we can't be tuned to the "aim channel" all the time. Apart from getting better at self-remembering, maybe we should learn then to "open our channel" even more, so that we don't just receive information from the "aim channel" - which may have its roots in the conscious self (or ego) portion of our psyche.

Example: my aim may be to better serve this group by giving back more. Now, if I focus on that exclusively, that is, I only try to do that which the conscious part of my psyche interprets as "serving the group", I may get obsessive and don't listen to other signals from my environment. For example, cleaning the house or being there for a family member might be more important right now. But if I try to listen to the unconscious part of my psyche - such as instincts, gut feelings and most importantly: conscience -, I can "broaden the channel" and integrate both my aim and certain signals from the unconscious part of my psyche.

Maybe then, in a next step, it might be helpful to adjust our aims to better "fit" our situation and the signals we are receiving from our unconsciousness. For example, instead of "helping this group", I could modify my aim to "helping people". Now, I might run into problems with that aim as well, so I might come up with the aim of "debugging the universe", which is much broader and can be more easily integrated with the other signals. In the example above, this aim might lead me to think in these terms: I'm obsessed, which is a state of mind that needs some debugging. Helping a family member is also a form of debugging, in that I learn to be more helpful, which is something positive. As you said:

obyvatel said:

If we are overly focused on all the stuff that does not work as we think it should (negative thoughts), there can be a compensatory movement where we suddenly get carried away by a rapturous reaction to what would otherwise be a normal human experience (like appreciating some aspect of nature/plants/animals for example). The result is an emotional roller-coaster with high peaks and low troughs. Keeping this in mind, we can formulate an aim that does a better job in maintaining the overall balance of ourselves, conserves energy and gives things their due. Psychological knowledge about the working of the unconscious is quite indispensable towards this end imo.

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However, this can't take place only in our heads, everything must be coupled or "grounded" to the other centers - emotions and body. The goal is to re-train our programmed reactions so that they are more "in line" with our aim. The aim is the guide on a conscious level, conscience/instincts the guide on the unconscious level, and our sensations and feelings are either in the way (in our mechanical state) or they become the driving force, keeping us focused and inspire us to take action?

I'm still lacking when it comes to knowledge about the working of the unconscious - where I'm at right now, I identify those "compensatory movements" of the unconscious more by their "flavor", by their grip on my being. When I'm successful, I can "let them flow" right through me, while "shielding" my psyche/thoughts from them - so that they can't intrude and produce thought loops that in turn strengthen these negative feelings. Or, if they manage to intrude, I can at least ignore the thoughts they produce.

Or maybe you mean something like this: just yesterday, I was outside, and the thought hit me that I messed something up with my "order" of the crystals. It really bogged me down and made me feel bad, and for a moment, I just couldn't get out of this. But then, I re-shaped my thoughts: I realized that this bad feeling comes from events in my past, where I was unreliable, forgot everything and so on. So, the bad feeling was based on shame and guilt for my behavior, and for not being a better person. Objectively, my mistake here was no big deal. Instantly, the bad feeling went away! Is that an example of applying "knowledge about the working of the unconscious"?

Oh my, I think I got carried away a bit here. I hope this makes sense...

Thanks whitecoast, that does make a lot of sense! I think you gave a good example of what I was trying to say. Obyvatel's and your responses prompted me to speculate a bit further:

Maybe it's helpful to make a distinction here:

Feelings producing thought loops - we have a certain feeling that produces thought loops, like in whitecoast's example: we feel a stab of jalousy, which makes us think bad of ourselves, or produces destructive thoughts how we want to "show it to the other" and so on. Our minds start spinning with unproductive or even destructive thoughts.

Thought loops producing feelings - we think of something, which then produces certain feelings. For example, I may think of an appointment I have which I don't like. I then start feeling anxiety, depression, and frustration.

Feedback loop of feelings and thought loops - what usually happens is that those feelings/sensations and thoughts begin to reinforce each other: I think of something that produces anxiety, which makes me think of other things that produce anxiety, which in turn feeds my thoughts, producing even more anxiety/other feelings and so on. (Of course, this can happen with "positive" feelings/thought loops as well, making us "happy", but totally detached from reality.) In our default "sleep" state, all of this happens unconsciously.


Speculating further - maybe that is what the Cs refer to as "Frequency Resonance Vibration"? A resonance between our centers at a certain "frequency", sending out a signal?

Low FRV: as described above, feelings produce thought loops and vice-versa, reinforcing each other, producing "food for the moon"/feeding entropy. This resonance keeps us in place and prevents us from doing anything positive, prevents us from giving - we are not dissipating light, we are just absorbing it and give it to the STS hierarchy. Just as in the example with the jealousy: we make life miserable for ourselves and others, and by turning down an opportunity to learn and grow, we are "eating light". We are unable to break this low-frequency resonance - we are not even aware of it.

High FRV: we are able to break the destructive resonance between our centers. In that state, we can separate our feelings/sensations and thoughts; they don't reinforce each other anymore. On the contrary, a different resonance is achieved: we take our feelings and thoughts as opportunities to learn and grow, to study our own minds/emotions/bodies, gain more knowledge about others and our various dynamics, use them as alarm clocks and motivation to break our habits and so on. We then become "debugging units", sending out a different signal: we "eat" less light, and become more able to dissipate light. For example, when we are confronted with the jalousy situation whitecoast described, we acknowledge the feeling without acting on it, and it doesn't prompt automatic destructive thoughts, but thoughts on a higher level, such as "how does this work? How can I help other people who have this problem? What would be the right thing in such a situation?" and so on. The whole "resonance" between our centers has changed in quality.

So the Way, or "ladder", may be a cycle like this:
1. Gaining knowledge.
2. Applying knowledge.
3. Networking.

It's a process of constantly raising our FRV. Depending on the resonance "frequency" of our centers/FRV, we may be sending out a signal to the universe, which in turn may react by sending us experiences corresponding to our "level". Unfortunately (or not), this may manifest in harder and harder lessons that are just hard enough to challenge us, yet not so hard that we have no chance. By throwing "stuff" at us, which we are then able to "transduce", the universe generates "light" through us. That's quite different from the New Age "love and light" mindset: we are actually producing "light" by being pushed to our limits constantly, by being stalked, and by working as hard as we can manage. It's the process of transducing negative energy into something positive.

Again, I hope this makes sense - FWIW.

luc said:

It's a process of constantly raising our FRV. Depending on the resonance "frequency" of our centers/FRV, we may be sending out a signal to the universe, which in turn may react by sending us experiences corresponding to our "level". Unfortunately (or not), this may manifest in harder and harder lessons that are just hard enough to challenge us, yet not so hard that we have no chance. By throwing "stuff" at us, which we are then able to "transduce", the universe generates "light" through us. That's quite different from the New Age "love and light" mindset: we are actually producing "light" by being pushed to our limits constantly, by being stalked, and by working as hard as we can manage. It's the process of transducing negative energy into something positive.

Click to expand...

Well said, IMO.

One time we had a psychology assignment which was to calculate how much time we'd spend on daydreaming each day, and the amount of time was higher than we thought! It was a wake-up call for many of us. As obyvatel said, it is partly natural that "it is difficult for our receivers to be tuned to the "aim channel" all the time." I'd guess this is where willpower comes in, that once we catch ourselves having these thought loops to try to snap out of it, and to do whichever that is helpful, relaxing or creative depending on the moment and what is needed, something that serves the aim in one way or another and something that keeps our minds busy in a productive way.

luc said:

Thank you obyvatel for sharing your thoughts. Let me try to rephrase some of the things you said and add a few thoughts to see if I understood you correctly:

obyvatel said:

The "busy loop" has been identified in neuroscience as the activity of the "default mode network" (DMN). Here is a link to a forum discussion on DMN in the context of meditation.

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One way to battle thought loops is to practice meditation, especially the kind of meditation that helps us focus the mind, such as the technique Laura recommends here. We can then increase our happiness by consciously re-adjusting our focus when it shifts into mind-wandering. It may also increase our willpower and allows us to focus at the task at hand.

Click to expand...

I would not necessarily say that we are "battling thought loops" by practicing meditation. Like Laura said in the quoted thread, it is about keeping the mind on task and improving concentration. Battling thought loops has the flavor of reacting and engaging with them in some way with the intention of driving them away - which in my experience does not work very well.

Since the meditation topic was brought up, let me digress a bit and share my experience. I have used long memorized prayers since childhood, not knowing that this was meditation. I have observed after some practice with it, mind starts wandering. The standard advice is to bring the mind back and restart . I had added counting - as in I would keep track of how many times I am reciting the prayer in my mind and continue until I reach a target. When I did that, more mental resources were needed. If you have tried doing the EE without the audio, you can easily see what I am talking about. 12+12+6 counts 3 stage breathing; 12 counts X3 of warrior's breath; 30X3 of each of long, medium and short beatha and 7 times POTS.

A time comes when the breathing and counting and reciting can be done accurately and still there is scope for mind wandering in between. Then one can add body sensing. One sequence I use is - right leg, left leg, right arm, left arm, waist-belly, chest-back, face-head. I guess one can substitute sensing with visualization at this stage. I prefer sensing. It is possible to become more granular with sensing tasks as well.

Basically, the idea is to increase the cognitive load on the system and engaging different brain areas at the same time. This works better for me than trying to bring the mind back to a task that I can perform automatically without effort after some practice. It is possible to go as far as the mind can take on simultaneously. Not saying that this is good for everybody - just something I do and find useful. It is useful to look at meditation as a skill or tool. One has to build it up with practice over time. It does not happen overnight.

luc] However said:

Having an aim is useful to keep one's thoughts focused. Reminding ourselves of the aim constantly is the challenge. The brain needs downtime and that is where a lot of daydreaming comes in. Yet, instead of getting rested, sometimes more energy is burned up in the brain when not focusing on a task. So one aspect of conserving energy is to schedule downtime in a way that is actually refreshing.

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Indeed, busy thoughts are very draining, and this state is, of course, the opposite of resting. But is it just the thoughts themselves that drain us, or is it the associated feelings/sensations, or both? I found that once I'm able to separate my feelings and thoughts - both feeling the sensations and observing my thoughts at the same time -, it is far less draining. The feeling seems to "flow through me", but doesn't do great harm. The thoughts may come and go, but don't seem to do much harm either.

As for the aim, yes, remembering it is the crux of the matter. I think that's why shocks are so useful in the Work: they produce such a strong feeling/sensation that ideally, we will forever remember the "taste" of it if we managed to self-observe during the shock and not be carried away completely by it. (Maybe that is the reason why Gurdjieff said it's important to provide just the right amount of shock to the student, if I remember correctly.) So, whenever a sensation with a similar "taste" comes up in the future, we instantly remember the shock, and thus remember ourselves. It is the most important "alarm clock" for us. Again, it seems to come down to the connection between thoughts and feelings.
[/quote]

This is the associative activity chain triggered by an image. If the image is something that is derived from or otherwise related to what we take as our aim, we call it useful.

[quote author=luc]
Or maybe you mean something like this: just yesterday, I was outside, and the thought hit me that I messed something up with my "order" of the crystals. It really bogged me down and made me feel bad, and for a moment, I just couldn't get out of this. But then, I re-shaped my thoughts: I realized that this bad feeling comes from events in my past, where I was unreliable, forgot everything and so on. So, the bad feeling was based on shame and guilt for my behavior, and for not being a better person. Objectively, my mistake here was no big deal. Instantly, the bad feeling went away! Is that an example of applying "knowledge about the working of the unconscious"?
[/quote]

"Knowledge about the working of the unconscious" is analogous to knowledge of the universe - so it is a relative term, per my understanding. Your internal response to the mistake was skillful in the context. Hopefully, you did what needed to be done externally as well to address the issue.

[quote author=luc]
I'm still lacking when it comes to knowledge about the working of the unconscious - where I'm at right now, I identify those "compensatory movements" of the unconscious more by their "flavor", by their grip on my being. When I'm successful, I can "let them flow" right through me, while "shielding" my psyche/thoughts from them - so that they can't intrude and produce thought loops that in turn strengthen these negative feelings. Or, if they manage to intrude, I can at least ignore the thoughts they produce.
[/quote]

This is a complex topic. Let me try to summarize some aspects of my understanding. If it does not make sense, please let me know - or, if it seems too obtuse, just let it pass without worrying about it. I am not sure I have the skills to get the points across appropriately.

A common psychological example of the compensatory function of the unconscious is found in some types of dreams. Dreams are symbolic and often quite specific to the individual situation. Like someone with a hugely superior attitude in real life may have dreams where he is in a rather lowly and humiliating position. Conversely, someone who is a powerless victim in real life may have fantasies of being a superhero. The "dark man dreams" discussed in Pinkola Estes's "Women Who Run With Wolves" can be messages from the unconscious saying "pay attention to looming danger" as a compensatory gesture towards lack of heedfulness in real life.

In terms of life situations, the term "universe dropping billboards on one's head" is an expression of the compensatory function of the unconscious which has been constellated in outer reality.

Gabor Mate's When The Body Says No has examples of physiological aspect of this compensation which has gone awry from the conscious standpoint.

So how is this relevant in terms of thought loops? Sometimes recurring images which trigger thought loops may be due to such a compensatory movement of the unconscious. Some aspect needs attention that it is not getting. In more "primitive societies", such disturbances of the psyche were attributed to some aspect of tribal experience or the Gods since the primitive psyche did not necessarily identify the disturbance as the property of the individual as we modern people are apt to do but located it out there in the collective psyche and beyond. This is what led Jung to comment that in the modern era, "Gods have become diseases" like neurotic symptoms. The important point is that the neurotic symptoms which lead to thought loops are not necessarily in "our individual heads" but often a reflection of the maladies of the environment, the society and culture we are in, including what we either inherited from or imbibed through interactions with our parents and significant others.

Thanks so much for posting this thread about thought loops. I'm sure we all have experiences of feeling trapped inside these loops. And the key point is that they're loops . . . not just sequential linear or intuitive quantum leaps of non-linear thought processes. And, for me anyway, it does feel like being ensnared in some treadmill trap that goes round & round and never resolves . . . no escape.

I've been practicing shifting my thinking focus out of focusing on the thoughts themselves and onto my body feelings & sensations. If I concentrate on how my body is feeling and paying attention to body sensations, I can usually pull myself out of this trap.

The worst thing I used to do was believe that I HAD to focus on those loops. That if I didn't stay in those loops, I wouldn't be able to find a solution. Talk about a double-trap. You're right, luc, that definitely seems like the MO of the predator installation . . . thinking that if I stopped immersing my focus on the looping thoughts, that something really bad might happen to me . . . that I'd lose something important. Right!

Interesting about the compensatory activity by the subconscious that Obyvatel brought up if we push too hard in one direction, another part of our psyche will rear up in an attempt to create more balance.

And balance seems to be another important key to doing this Work, yes?

In a way, although the Work is based on practical methods, there's also a creative side to the Work as well. Maybe I mean an artistic side. There's all the technology of Mourieff, Gurdjieff, Castenada, and all the psychology experts. But there's also an art in finding just the precise correct tech to apply at any specific moment. Because some methods work at one time, and another method works at another time.

The I-Ching mentions this approach as well. IOW, sometimes we imagine ourselves shooting a destructive thought with an imaginary bow & arrow. Sometimes, we gently talk to all the whining little i's as if they were recalcitrant children needing to be assured that, yes, lunch will be forthcoming and gaining their cooperation to be willing to wait patiently.

Sometimes we use one approach, and, if that doesn't work, shift to another tactic. It does seem to be a war, but even battles can be fought using various tactics than relying always on brute force. And, at least in my case, brute force doesn't seem to achieve anything other than stiffer resistance. Sometimes making an end run around, outflanking, sneaking up behind the troops and surprising them, or giving them a pep talk in order to enlist their help can each work in certain instances.

Thanks again luc and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. The important takeaway for me is that it's very useful to remember and recall my Aim when noticing I'm trapped in a thought loop. The Aim is like a compass point that can steer & guide me towards the North Star. It's less about the North Star being a goal . . . and more about the Aim being to remember the path itself which leads to the North Star. And returning to the path when I've strayed off to eat the grass beside the road, like the proverbial disobedient horse.

Cheers! :)

obyvatel said:

[quote author=luc]
I'm still lacking when it comes to knowledge about the working of the unconscious - where I'm at right now, I identify those "compensatory movements" of the unconscious more by their "flavor", by their grip on my being. When I'm successful, I can "let them flow" right through me, while "shielding" my psyche/thoughts from them - so that they can't intrude and produce thought loops that in turn strengthen these negative feelings. Or, if they manage to intrude, I can at least ignore the thoughts they produce.

Click to expand...

This is a complex topic. Let me try to summarize some aspects of my understanding. If it does not make sense, please let me know - or, if it seems too obtuse, just let it pass without worrying about it. I am not sure I have the skills to get the points across appropriately.

A common psychological example of the compensatory function of the unconscious is found in some types of dreams. Dreams are symbolic and often quite specific to the individual situation. Like someone with a hugely superior attitude in real life may have dreams where he is in a rather lowly and humiliating position. Conversely, someone who is a powerless victim in real life may have fantasies of being a superhero. The "dark man dreams" discussed in Pinkola Estes's "Women Who Run With Wolves" can be messages from the unconscious saying "pay attention to looming danger" as a compensatory gesture towards lack of heedfulness in real life.

In terms of life situations, the term "universe dropping billboards on one's head" is an expression of the compensatory function of the unconscious which has been constellated in outer reality.

Gabor Mate's When The Body Says No has examples of physiological aspect of this compensation which has gone awry from the conscious standpoint.

So how is this relevant in terms of thought loops? Sometimes recurring images which trigger thought loops may be due to such a compensatory movement of the unconscious. Some aspect needs attention that it is not getting. In more "primitive societies", such disturbances of the psyche were attributed to some aspect of tribal experience or the Gods since the primitive psyche did not necessarily identify the disturbance as the property of the individual as we modern people are apt to do but located it out there in the collective psyche and beyond. This is what led Jung to comment that in the modern era, "Gods have become diseases" like neurotic symptoms. The important point is that the neurotic symptoms which lead to thought loops are not necessarily in "our individual heads" but often a reflection of the maladies of the environment, the society and culture we are in, including what we either inherited from or imbibed through interactions with our parents and significant others.

[/quote]

This perspective of mental illness and how it ties in to society, culture, environment and upbringing makes Carl Jung's writing on the collective unconscious clearer, with respect to current times. The influences acting upon us in modern day society, engineered no doubt, seem much more confusing and bewildering when compared to his time. The aspects of diet, electromagnetic pollution, information warfare, harmful upbringing, create a veritable morass which is very hard for a single human being to dig himself out of. What is missing? Maybe it's truthful communication between people about the things that matter to them. However, it can be hard to communicate about things that would seem absurd in the view of the collective - and many times feelings and sensations arise that are impossible to communicate to others with any sufficient clarity. Vague and unclear - that's maybe how I could describe how I feel when I try to say anything about feeling or sensation.

Will we be able to get rid of this thought loop problem altogether? Is it possible to reach the point where we understand and feel confident in the fact that our bodies and minds are operating in the way nature / our creators intended (I'm not sure if our creators intended harmonious existence for human beings since I understand that they were STS beings)? I don't know the answer to that but my survival hinges on being able to get there. Without self-mastery I think the coming times will be almost impossible to bear.

If i may add (to the already excellent recommendations) an interesting video with the labors for change for the betterment of personal self development..I be listening as well.

The Power of Concentration - Audio Book
Published on Jun 4, 2015 (4 hours+)
By: Theron Q. Dumont (1862-1932)

https://youtu.be/rE-Abg8XUUs

Obyvatel, I just wanted to thank you for your input, even though I didn't reply to you, your post gave me much food for thought. Thanks for taking the time.

Thanks to the others as well. BTW, I think the book "Inviting a Monkey to Tea" is very relevant to this topic and helped me to identify less with my own thoughts and activate that bird's perspective more and more when it comes to observing my inner landscape. I highly recommend it.