Wandering minds in meditation process more information

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2630446/Does-meditation-make-SMART-Letting-mind-wander-lets-brains-process-MORE-thoughts-concentrating.html

This article is about an interesting study that compared directive (seed) to non-directive (non-seed) meditation. They found that directive meditation conferred the same mental benefits as simply resting, while the non-directed meditation actually had higher levels of activity in certain parts of the brain.

TBQH though I'm not sure what the difference means on a fundamental level though.

Regardless of religious beliefs, many people attempt to meditate at busy times in their lives.

And now a new study claims that meditation activates parts of the brain that simple ‘relaxing’ cannot.

People who meditate process more ideas and feelings than when they are just resting and letting your mind wander is more effective than concentrating on emptying your head of thoughts, scientists said.

Focus: The experts discovered that letting your mind wander is more effective than concentrating on emptying your head of thoughts when meditating. The left images show the brain during concentrative meditation, while images to the right show the brain during nondirective meditation
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Focus: The experts discovered that letting your mind wander is more effective than concentrating on emptying your head of thoughts when meditating. The left images show the brain during concentrative meditation, while images to the right show the brain during nondirective meditation.

There are countless techniques such as Zen, Buddhist and transcendental meditation and these can be divided into two main groups known as ‘concentrative’ meditation where the person focuses on breathing and specific thoughts and ‘nondirective’ which allows the mind to wander as it pleases.

All the participants in the study had experience with a nondirective form of meditation practiced in Norway called Acem.

Using an MRI scanner, the experiment showed that the part of their brains dedicated to processing self-related thoughts and feelings were more active during the activity than at rest.

When test subjects performed concentrative meditation, the activity in this part of the brain was almost the same as when they were just resting.

Dr Jian Xu, of St Olavs, said: ‘I was surprised the activity of the brain was greatest when the person’s thoughts wandered freely on their own, rather than when the brain worked to be more strongly focused.

‘When the subjects stopped doing a specific task and were not really doing anything special, there was an increase in activity in the area of the brain where we process thoughts and feelings.

‘It is described as a kind of resting network. And it was this area that was most active during nondirective meditation.’

Professor Svend Davanger, of the University of Oslo, said: ‘The study indicates nondirective meditation allows for more room to process memories and emotions than during concentrated meditation.

‘This area of the brain has its highest activity when we rest. It represents a kind of basic operating system; a resting network that takes over when external tasks do not require our attention.

‘It is remarkable a mental task like nondirective meditation results in even higher activity in this network than regular rest.’

Professor Davanger is the only member of the research team to regularly meditate and he believes that good research depends on having a team that can combine personal experience of meditation with a critical attitude towards results.

‘Meditation is an activity practiced by millions of people. It is important we find out how this really works,’ he added.
 
In addition to Fourth Way methods, I am using non directed meditation (even if its not easy for my restless ADD mind). I find it a useful addition to my practices and helps me with self remembering.
 
That's a very interesting article, but imo it doesn't take into account the goal of the meditation. Just because parts the brain is more active doesn't necessarily mean there is more value coming out of the meditation. The quality of the seed used in directed meditation matters too. It's a way of focusing the brain on certain thought patterns and attitudes. That's why the Prayer of the Soul from the Eiriu Eolas program is so valuable. It is aimed at soul connection and aligning as much as possible with an objective view of the world. This allows us to act in the world more effectively because we are (as much as possible) making choices based on circumstances as they are, rather than what we wish they were.

FWIW :)
 
herondancer said:
That's a very interesting article, but imo it doesn't take into account the goal of the meditation. Just because parts the brain is more active doesn't necessarily mean there is more value coming out of the meditation. The quality of the seed used in directed meditation matters too. It's a way of focusing the brain on certain thought patterns and attitudes. That's why the Prayer of the Soul from the Eiriu Eolas program is so valuable. It is aimed at soul connection and aligning as much as possible with an objective view of the world. This allows us to act in the world more effectively because we are (as much as possible) making choices based on circumstances as they are, rather than what we wish they were.

FWIW :)

I agree. I thought that the whole point of meditating is to quiet the incessant rambling of the mind and focus on the seed, the POTS in this case. When I'm doing the POTS I try to gently push away any thoughts coming into my mind and focus, otherwise I would simply be lying there thinking random thoughts. I can do that any time. Meditating is like exercise for the brain, imo.
 
Odyssey said:
herondancer said:
That's a very interesting article, but imo it doesn't take into account the goal of the meditation. Just because parts the brain is more active doesn't necessarily mean there is more value coming out of the meditation. The quality of the seed used in directed meditation matters too. It's a way of focusing the brain on certain thought patterns and attitudes. That's why the Prayer of the Soul from the Eiriu Eolas program is so valuable. It is aimed at soul connection and aligning as much as possible with an objective view of the world. This allows us to act in the world more effectively because we are (as much as possible) making choices based on circumstances as they are, rather than what we wish they were.

FWIW :)

I agree. I thought that the whole point of meditating is to quiet the incessant rambling of the mind and focus on the seed, the POTS in this case. When I'm doing the POTS I try to gently push away any thoughts coming into my mind and focus, otherwise I would simply be lying there thinking random thoughts. I can do that any time. Meditating is like exercise for the brain, imo.

Yes, it's just about impossible to still the mind to the point where no thoughts are occurring without some sort of seed to create a focus that can at least quiet the mind to some extent. Years ago I did a mantra form of meditation where one word was repeated continually. I found that stray thoughts always wandered in and it was necessary to repeatedly get back on track. The breathing exercises in EE seem to provide a focus that, in my experience, is more effective in quieting the mind more than repeating a mantra. I experience a similar focusing and lessening of stray thoughts when doing the POTS. For me, the POTS contains a lot of objective truth and wisdom and is in line with my AIM in life.

I'm not sure that there's much difference between a non-focused meditation and what one does normally every night before going to sleep.
 
[quote author=whitecoast]

Dr Jian Xu, of St Olavs, said: ‘I was surprised the activity of the brain was greatest when the person’s thoughts wandered freely on their own, rather than when the brain worked to be more strongly focused.

‘When the subjects stopped doing a specific task and were not really doing anything special, there was an increase in activity in the area of the brain where we process thoughts and feelings.

‘It is described as a kind of resting network. And it was this area that was most active during nondirective meditation.’

Professor Svend Davanger, of the University of Oslo, said: ‘The study indicates nondirective meditation allows for more room to process memories and emotions than during concentrated meditation.

‘This area of the brain has its highest activity when we rest. It represents a kind of basic operating system; a resting network that takes over when external tasks do not require our attention.

‘It is remarkable a mental task like nondirective meditation results in even higher activity in this network than regular rest.’
[/quote]

This resting network is sometimes called the default mode network (DMN). Some previous studies have looked at the link between meditation and the state of the DMN. Here is a brief abstract.

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/22/1112029108.abstract
Many philosophical and contemplative traditions teach that “living in the moment” increases happiness. However, the default mode of humans appears to be that of mind-wandering, which correlates with unhappiness, and with activation in a network of brain areas associated with self-referential processing. We investigated brain activity in experienced meditators and matched meditation-naive controls as they performed several different meditations (Concentration, Loving-Kindness, Choiceless Awareness). We found that the main nodes of the default-mode network (medial prefrontal and posterior cingulate cortices) were relatively deactivated in experienced meditators across all meditation types. Furthermore, functional connectivity analysis revealed stronger coupling in experienced meditators between the posterior cingulate, dorsal anterior cingulate, and dorsolateral prefrontal cortices (regions previously implicated in self-monitoring and cognitive control), both at baseline and during meditation. Our findings demonstrate differences in the default-mode network that are consistent with decreased mind-wandering.

So experienced meditators showed less mind-wandering than non-meditators. It is generally agreed that uncontrolled mind wandering, which is the default state of most humans when we are not engaged in any directed specific task, is not useful.

In this article , the author goes on to say

Scientists have previously shown that being in a mind-wandering state - instead of aware of present moment activities - is not such a happy state. We are generally happier when we are not mind-wandering. The exception to this is when we mind-wander to happy thoughts but we only do that about one third of the time; two-thirds of our mind-wandering thought content is stressful or neutral and that puts us in less happy moods.

The goal here for meditation is more peace and happiness.

1. The DMN was less activated in meditators and they reported less mind wandering. The finding seems to extend to the meditators whether they were meditating or just lying still (resting state). Given other evidence that mindfulness improves mood, this finding suggests that reducing activation of DMN may be part of the reason mindfulness increases happiness.

2. There was increased connectivity of different parts of the DMN in meditators than controls. This means that the wiring between regions that make up the DMN look different between the two groups. It suggests that mindfulness practice increases connections between important DMN regions, perhaps making the system better in communication. It is analogous to an orchestra with the different sections - string, horn, etc. - being more in tune with one another.

So, the brain images of experienced meditators look different from others irrespective of whether they are meditating in the moment or just lying still. There is less noise and more functional connectedness between brain areas for the meditators.


With this in mind, from the original paper

All the participants in the study had experience with a nondirective form of meditation practiced in Norway called Acem.
....................................
When test subjects performed concentrative meditation, the activity in this part of the brain was almost the same as when they were just resting.

There is no mention of these people having trained in concentrative meditation. The results they had while doing concentrative meditation matched their resting state - which by itself does not tell us much imo. The increased activity in the DMN for the type of non-directive meditation that the meditators were already trained in is interesting - but I am not sure what that is telling us. At least, it does not seem like there is evidence here that one form is better or different in practical terms.

[quote author=herondancer]
Just because parts the brain is more active doesn't necessarily mean there is more value coming out of the meditation.
[/quote]

Indeed. And a lot depends on what is the value sought from the meditation practice? Is it experience oriented - like looking for a calm peaceful state of mind? Is it change oriented like bringing up contents of the unconscious to process and learn from or getting more insight about the self?
 
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