Johnno
The Living Force
I heard this interview on Australian ABC radio last week. It's an alternative treatment known as minocycline thath is usually used for acne treatment which is proving sometimes effective for rheumatoid arthritis. I was under the impression rheumatoid arthritis was genetic or a result of "over-use" of the joint but found out it was an immunity disorder.
My left hand fingers have been starting to ache a bit and I've been using glucosamine which seems to also be effective.
In any case, here a transcript of the interview on the ABC
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2008/2260412.htm#
My left hand fingers have been starting to ache a bit and I've been using glucosamine which seems to also be effective.
In any case, here a transcript of the interview on the ABC
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2008/2260412.htm#
Health controversies often start with impressions, anecdotes, push back and then some clarity one way or the other eventually. So when the smoke clears, arguments like mumps vaccine causing autism prove to have no foundation and the A1/A2 milk story while sounding off beat may indeed have something going for it. So let's stay in the smoke and move from one auto immune disease, type 1 diabetes, to another, rheumatoid arthritis which is a destructive arthritis that can cripple people and be hard to treat. The newer medications for rheumatoid can cost tens of thousands of dollars a year.
There seems however to be growing enthusiasm outside orthodox specialist rheumatology practice for an inexpensive antibiotic which some people with rheumatoid arthritis swear by. And as you'll hear there are suggestions it may work in osteoarthritis as well.
One strong proponent is a former colleague of mine from the ABC who has rheumatoid arthritis, he's Peter Wall.
Peter Wall: I was playing golf and I actually had a pain in my jaw and I thought what is this and on the way there for the first time ever I've pulled over and fell asleep twice. I didn't know it had anything to do with it until later on that inflammation made you tired.
Norman Swan: Were you getting pains in other joints as well?
Peter Wall: Yeah, then they came in a whole lot of joints, I remember the ankle, the wrist, the fingers. With this rheumatoid arthritis I was diagnosed as having you actually get this sort of brain fog which is a dreadful thing, it's almost like have vaseline on the lens the whole time. It's a dreadful way to live and so I then progressed to the stage where I couldn't get up and go to the toilet without crutches, I was really in a bad way, I couldn't turn the tap on properly, I had to hold my right wrist with my left hand to shave.
Norman Swan: And this was because of pain in your joints?
Peter Wall: Because of pain, straight pain.
Norman Swan: What medications did they have you on?
Peter Wall: Well I did the normal run of things, I had Gold shots, I had a thing called Arava, I didn't do the Methotrexate route because -
Norman Swan: To explain to listeners Methotrexate is a cancer drug but it also affects the immune system and is quite effective in rheumatoid arthritis for some people and other auto immune diseases.
Peter Wall: But Arava I believe has given me what you guys call peripheral neuropathy in my feet.
Norman Swan: So you've got numbness and tingling in your feet?
Peter Wall: I have numbness from the middle of my foot to my toes, probably about 50% of the feeling that I used to have. I then had Gold shots and it made my skin go like shark's skin and it gave me ulcers in the mouth and on the lips. It was dreadful.
Norman Swan: So you were having a lot of fun?
Peter Wall: I wasn't having a lot of fun at all, I was managing a radio station and I used to have to go to the car at lunchtime and sleep every lunchtime without telling people where I was going because I needed the actual sleep to get through the day. Every Saturday I'd sleep for three or four hours and then it was at that radio station I was talking to one of the board members and I apologised for not being very focused on the job and he said to me you should speak to my wife. And I said why's that? And he said because she's discovered something in America and she has rheumatoid arthritis and it's worked well for her. So I said OK, you'll do anything, you'll stand on one leg and whistle Dixie if you've got to. So I rang her and she said that she took this thing called Minomycine which is a drug basically that children take for acne in Australia. And I said how does that work? And she said you must read this book and the book was called The New Arthritis Breakthrough by a guy called Henry Scammell and she said you must look up a website which is called The Road Back and I discovered this group of people and yes, some of them are whackers and dare I say, this is the saddest thing to say Norman, that most of the wackiest ones are the Australians on there. But the theory is, and you'll need to ask somebody who knows a lot more about it than me, that tetracycline somehow gets into enzymes in micro plasma which is a cell that knows no boundaries or something, I don't know, and that it actually works on those and it gets in prior to the auto immune problem kicking in.
Anyhow I took it and after about five days the brain fog started lifting and after about ten days the brain fog had gone and then when you do this there's a thing called the Herxheimer effect which some people know of, but I'd never heard of it.
Norman Swan: This traditionally occurs with penicillin which is a reaction to taking an antibiotic.
Peter Wall: Yeah and in layman's language it means that you feel really dreadful before you get better and so I'm reading this book and it says if you have this reaction it's the best sign you've got that the tetracycline, which is what Minomycine is, is reaching its target. Literally I was in bed for a week, knocked around, I could hardly get out. That's the problem with this treatment. The joints that have been hurting really hurt and then they stopped hurting. Other joints that hadn't hurt hitherto were starting to hurt but the brain fog had gone so I was thinking clearly.
Norman Swan: So it's a very mixed picture, the joints that were sore were getting better but other joints were starting to flare up.
Peter Wall: And then went away so they didn't actually get as bad as the ones that had been really painful were.
Norman Swan: How many weeks into treatment are we now?
Peter Wall: I think after about six or seven weeks I was tiggety boo.
Norman Swan: So you really had to dig in and stick with it?
Peter Wall: Absolutely, and I think that this is probably not something that most rheumatologists want to go through with most patients, I think it's a hard road.
Norman Swan: Obviously this is not a normal sort of Health Report story where we're dealing with a randomised controlled trial with control populations and all that sort of thing, we're talking about Peter Wall and his experience. But has your rheumatoid come back on the minocycline?
Peter Wall: I've been on it now for about three years and on about four or five occasions I've had pain in a joint in three years that's probably about one tenth of what it used to be and it's always lasted a day or two. Every time I've tried to change the dosage, for the first year I had monthly blood tests, when I went on this they all went to normal.
Norman Swan: So when you try to change your dose does the disease come back?
Peter Wall: I've done it twice and it does seem to come back.
Norman Swan: And have you had to increase your dose at all because it was wearing off?
Peter Wall: No, the only side effect is that I'm as brown as a berry because tetracycline does make you go brown so you've got to really watch that.
Norman Swan: So has your rheumatologist's scepticism diminished?
Peter Wall: They all think I'm basically lucky. I said to my wife I'm going to talk to Norman Swan about this thing, you know a lot of people don't believe in this and she said well I've seen how bad you were and I've seen how you are now, you should go and tell people.
Norman Swan: Peter Wall. We'll go to a rheumatologist in a moment but before that to a general practitioner who uses minocycline a lot in people with rheumatoid arthritis.
As I said to Peter a moment ago, this isn't a regular Health Report story where we try to stick to the evidence from placebo controlled randomised trials. This is to a large extent anecdotal but the stories do impress. Richard Schloeffel is a GP who's a tetracycline enthusiast for rheumatoid arthritis and subscribes to the theory that an infection lies at the heart of this autoimmune disease. And in fact this isn't a million miles away from mainstream immunological opinion about what triggers autoimmunity.
Richard Schloeffel: We believe that rheumatoid arthritis is activated by an infection called mycoplasma but I started initially with a drug called Doxycycline which is another sort of tetracycline antibiotic and we know these drugs are relatively safe and very inexpensive.
Norman Swan: Not a good idea for children though?
Richard Schloeffel: Under the age of 8 you shouldn't use it because it can damage your teeth and minocycline you shouldn't use either for younger children but over 100 patients now or more that I've treated with minocycline for rheumatoid arthritis stabilising their inflammation, reducing their blood tests down to normal and as Peter was saying there's a marked reduction in pain and stiffness.
Norman Swan: So tell me what happens, because Peter has described his course there where it seems to get worse for a while before it gets better?
Richard Schloeffel: Yes, there's a type of reaction that people get when you start antibiotics, it happens with lots of infection called a Herxheimer reaction. If you start killing organisms with an antibiotic that releases a lot of toxins from those particular organisms but when you're treating a long term infection such as rheumatoid arthritis and I know I'm stretching the boundaries there, you get worse because you release a lot of -
Norman Swan: It's classic with penicillin rather than tetracycline.
Richard Schloeffel: Yes it is, the second or third week into treatment with minocycline up to about six weeks they get worse, more pain, more swelling, more stiffness, ESR C-reactive protein measures of inflammation go up and then gradually it improves and over a three to six month period you'll notice a gradual reduction of symptoms.
Norman Swan: What proportion of people that you treat actually get a response because no drug works on 100% of people?
Richard Schloeffel: Well some of the studies that have been done in the States looks around 60%65% of people will benefit from antibiotics, particularly minocycline and I think I'm getting around about the same numbers. Most patients see me twice a year for scripts for minocycline which is working out a few dollars a week as compared to some of the newer treatments the TNF drugs, anti TNF drugs Enbrel and whatever.
Norman Swan: They are the new monoclonal antibody drugs that can cost $60,000 per year.
Richard Schloeffel: That's right. I still have patients on them, in patients who have failed but I'm seeing patients who have failed the traditional treatments, Methotrexate, Prednisone, other anti-inflammatory drugs and then putting them on minocycline and as Peter says they start to look like they are going into remission, then their blood tests normalise, their movement improves but if you stop the medication they start to get it back.
Norman Swan: There haven't really been randomised controlled trials which is the gold standard evidence here to show that this works. When you talk to specialists, when you talk to rheumatologists what do they say?
Richard Schloeffel: Several of them are actually starting their patients on minocycline, especially the milder patients or the patients with what we call sero-negative rheumatoid arthritis where they don't have any blood tests positive, we know they're sick and often if they've got evidence that they've had mycoplasma they may well give this a trial to start with but they don't talk about it and they wouldn't offer it unless the patient asks for it.
Norman Swan: Because to be fair it is off label, it's not -
Richard Schloeffel: Oh absolutely and I think part of the reason is that there is not much money in prescribing or studying minocycline for the use of rheumatoid arthritis. I think the side effects are twofold - problems of photo sensitivity and with minocycline you can get hyper-pigmentation of the skin, you may get gut disturbance and you have to watch for this.
Norman Swan: Richard Schloeffel. One of Australia's most respected rheumatologists and someone who's been on the Health Report several times in the past is Associate Professor Lyn March who's based at Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney.
Lyn March: Rheumatoid arthritis is a chronic inflammatory condition of the joints that ultimately if not treated leads to destruction of the joints. It is an auto immune disease in that the body's immune system is being over-active and essentially attacking its own joints. We don't know what causes it but clearly there are strong genetic elements and environmental triggers that add to that.
Norman Swan: Which is where this tetracycline treatment comes in presumably if indeed it works because some people have suggested that an infection can be the trigger because it can mimic the lining of the joints and the immune system gets confused.
Lyn March: Yes the international community has been searching for years for the infective agent that starts rheumatoid arthritis and clearly that hasn't been found yet. Something has triggered the immune system but it just keeps going but very close looks have not been able to find infective agents in the majority of rheumatoid arthritis patients.
Norman Swan: So what do you think of this tetracycline story?
Lyn March: It's not a new story.The trials done some years ago would suggest in rheumatoid arthritis, compared to a placebo treatment the tetracycline antibiotics particularly minocycline can reduce joint pain and joint swelling and also induce the inflammation levels that we can measure in the blood. What these studies haven't been able to show us though is whether that actually switches off the erosive damage and actually prevents progression of the disease. So there seems to be evidence that it does modify symptoms and some of the signs of inflammation but we don't know and maybe it's just because we haven't studied enough people over a long enough time period to see if it classifies as one of those disease modifying agents.
Norman Swan: And what do you think of this flare that people describe a week or so after starting it, in other words you get worse before you get better?
Lyn March: Yes I'm not sure exactly what's going on there because I mean the tetracycline seems to do an enormous number of things at a different cellular level in the body as well as the anti-bacterial effect.
Norman Swan: It seems to have an effect on tissue glue because some people are using it for aortic aneurisms to stop them growing because it has an effect on the way tissues hold together.
Lyn March: Yes it's to do with the collagen as you know which is one of the main components of all tissues in our body and the tetracyclines probably block a particular group of enzymes called the matrix metalloproteinases and what's happening in things like aortic aneurisms but also what's happening in the joints in rheumatoid arthritis and in osteoarthritis, the cartilage has been broken down by a lot of inflammatory markers and the tetracyclines can block some of that collagen breakdown and perhaps protect the joint.
Norman Swan: Do you have many patients on it?
Lyn March: No I don't because as I said it's not mainstream, it's not at this stage recommended and not actually listed for that use. With rheumatoid we really should be aiming to get the patients into remission and that is achievable now with the drugs that we have available so we can actually switch off the erosions and I guess clearly there are potentials for harms and benefits in every drug and there certainly are potential harms for the tetracycline usage long term as well. And you want your benefits to far outweigh those harms so I'm not convinced with the evidence that that's where we are with the tetracyclines.
Norman Swan: And what are the downsides?
Lyn March: Because it's affecting the immune system, it can actually tip it over the other way sometimes and there are numerous case reports of the tetracycline derivatives, particularly minocycline, actually causing some autoimmune diseases so it can induce the anti-nuclear antibodies that we see in systemic lupus erythematosus and cause evasculitis, it can cause acute renal failure or liver failure.
Norman Swan: You mentioned osteoarthritis in passing is there any evidence for these tetracyclines in osteo?
Lyn March: It might well be Norman that it may be more useful in osteoarthritis because one of the key pathology that's occurring in osteoarthritis is in the articular cartilage and in the underlying bone and by inhibiting those metalloproteinases and reducing collagen destruction it might actually protect the cartilage and there has been quite a reasonably done randomised trial that showed that the joint space narrowing that we see on X-ray was reduced in the people taking the minocycline but interestingly pain wasn't particularly influenced. So it's clearly not straightforward.
Norman Swan: Associate Professor Lyn March who is based at Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney. I'm Norman Swan and you've been listening to the Health Report.