intentional sufferings

Green_Manalishi

Jedi Master
Having reed for the first time "Beelzebub's Tales...", I started thinking a bit about the intentional sufferings talked many times during the book.
This intentional sufferings, i believe, being of a psychic, mental, not physical kind provoked by some kind of attrition between what we desire and what we should really do, my though is the following.
Perhaps what i want to expose is best described by an example: Someone has just finished a degree, he can either go to a regular work get dumbed down from 9 to 5 not doing anything really meaningful, but staying relatively comfortable, or he can go to a volunteer project in a foreign country which would imply major changes and not being as comfortable (being way from the family and friends in a strange place), but knowing that at least for once in his life he was doing something with some purpose.
So to resume, to do something with a personal purpose, what is important I thing one must renounce a lot of comfortable things (and by that suffer because we have to renounce to a lot that keeps us comfortable in our minds) but knowing that we are doing something important that suffering would not matter.
I don't known if i made myself clear, if not i will try to explain better later.
Perhaps i'm not understanding the concept of intentional sufferings .

PEACE
 
It is my impression that you selected one aspect of The Work and you try to find the best approach for personal growth acting on partial understanding of what is needed. Apart from intentional suffering, emotional shocks there are other things that have to be taken into consideration - like personal safety, covering basic survival needs, finding enough time and energy to study, etc. I doubt that one who begins to do The Work is able to cover all the bases once he has jumped to completely new and unfamiliar environment, however it is not impossible.

Your example reminds me of europeans who want to relocate to far east, once they decided to "spiritually evolve" (being influenced by one of the far east religions), like the reality didn't provide them with good enough conditions for work on themselves right there, where they lived. I think one can experience enough suffering wherever one lives, so leaving one's country in order to find discomfort and suffering is really an overkill.

There are other points to discuss in your post, like trying to "do", before one "is" and somewhat extreme perception of limited possibilities while there are many. Maybe you have chosen bad example for your thoughts - if it is the case you could try posing a question differently.
 
The goal of my example (the volunteering) wouldn't be to evolve spiritually or to suffer, but just to know a different culture, a different place and help a bit someone else (if you could spiritually evolve with that i don't know). Learn a lot for yourself (STS) and at the same time help (STO), because the understanding, has I to believe, in this forum is that we are STS creatures but can at times be a little STO.

Only after i had this though i remembered that this could be an example of intentional suffering.

My bottom question with all this story is, can we by helping others (taking time of our own, thus creating the attrition between what we want (more time for us) and what we could do to benefit someone (taking time from ourselves), be considered a intentional suffering, even thou that at same level we feel good by doing it.

jOda said:
there are other things that have to be taken into consideration
I agree with you, "specialization" is not a good way.
 
Green_Manalishi said:
Learn a lot for yourself (STS) and at the same time help (STO), because the understanding, has I to believe, in this forum is that we are STS creatures but can at times be a little STO.
I don't think that learning is STS, or even learning a lot for oneself. After all, noone else is going to learn for you. Learning, or in G's terms (very generally), impressions, is one of the "foods" that allows for growth . . . the more one grows, the stronger one becomes, the more free will one has.

How one uses that knowledge, however, is a different story altogether, but, as the C's have said (in so many words) aquiring of knowledge is necessary to "graduate". All the lessons must be learned.

Kris
 
Green_Manalishi said:
My bottom question with all this story is, can we by helping others (taking time of our own, thus creating the attrition between what we want (more time for us) and what we could do to benefit someone (taking time from ourselves), be considered a intentional suffering, even thou that at same level we feel good by doing it.

jOda said:
there are other things that have to be taken into consideration
I agree with you, "specialization" is not a good way.
Intentional suffering is also called conscious suffering. The key words are intentional or conscious. Until one is capable of being conscious of one's action, it is useless to talk about conscious suffering. And to be able to be conscious, a LOT need to be done. I guess that's what J0da meant by "other things".
 
Can we 'intentionally' create our own 'intentional suffering'? Or maybe, we can choose to 'intentionally suffer' through circumstances presented to us?

I have been asking myself that question after recently making a choice after reasoning that it would be an opportunity for 'intentional suffering'. In my mind I had already decided what that suffering would be. Well, I can say that because of that choice, I am suffering. And it may be considered intentional, due to the fact that I made the choice. However, it is not at all the suffering that I had originally intended!

It appears that maybe I actually created a situation of 'unnecessary suffering'. I am wondering if it is because of the fact that 'I' attempted to determine the course of events. Or it could be just as Joda said:

Joda said:
like trying to "do", before one "is"
But either way, it appears that maybe by recognizing the role my self-importance played in making that choice, I may be presented with an opportunity for 'intentional suffering' in how I respond going forward.

I don't know, I am still trying to understand 'intentional suffering'. All there is is lessons, but understanding what the lessons are is the hard part!!


Laurie
 
Gurdjieff said:
"Only such a man, when he consciously says "I Am" he really is; "I can" - he really can; 'I wish" - he really wishes. When "I wish - I feel with my whole being that I wish and CAN wish. This does NOT mean "I want, I need, or I like, or I desire." No. "I wish." I never like, never want, I do not desire anything and I do not need anything - all this is slavery; if "I wish" something, I must like it, even if I do not like it. I can wish to like it, because "I can." I wish - I feel with my whole body that I wish. I wish - because I can wish.
Intentional suffering is discussed in 'Life is fun! Or is it?' article, Work section of Essays on Life. I think by learning how to stop useless suffering and consciously implementing this knowledge in real-life situations for ourselves and those around us in everyday life, is one of the ways of undoing us as reactional mashines.
snippets:
Essays on Life by Henry said:
[...]
The answer is to be find in the intent. Jesus did not simply suffer because it is not conscious. People do not understand why they suffer; they suffer through ignorance, not through choice. They suffer because they are attached to impermanent things; they identify with that which is fleetimg and momentary. As the first Noble truth puts it: 'Clinging to existence is suffering.'

It is curious what happens when we cling to existence. Because existence is suffering, and clinging to that existence is suffering, we have to mask the reality because we do not like to suffer. Because we seek ways to avoid suffering, we try to find ways to deny suffering. We find different ways to what is called 'self-calming'. Self-calming is lying to oneself, telling oneself a story to cover up the terrifying state of reality, convincing oneself that it is possible to live in this world without suffering.

When we have a physical pain, we take a pill, some form of painkiller. We anaesthetize ourselves to the pain. Having done this, we have a choice. We can look at the causes of this pain and work to remedy it, or we can ignore the causes and rely on more drugs to make us feel 'pain-free'. In other words, we can live in a lie and deny that there are underlying causes. However, if we do not look at the source of this pain, at the disease or infection that causes it, and if we do not work to alleviate the causes, the pain will return when the effects of the drug wear off.

self-calmimg is like taking a pain reliever without working on the underlying causes. One continues popping the pills, and the underlying cause can worsen, creating the need for another, stronger pill. If this continues, the pill-popping can become our reality. We can live completely under the influence of the drug. Our body will continue to suffer, it may even continue to manufacture the warning signs that we are ill, but we become oblivious to these signs, these warnings.
[...]
To jstify fence-sitting, this refusal to make a choice. or this refusal to see the bad, people will find many and varied excuses. They may understand that suffering has been turned into a virtue in and of itself by the Church, with no discussion of context and its relationship to intent. The more you suffer the better; the more you suffer the holier you art, the closer to Christ you dwell. This acceptance of unintentional suffering has become a tool for oppression of the masses by the major religions. But rather than understanding that the problem is the question of intent, those who reject this Christian interpretation mechanically reject suffering itself. They never ask themselves: Am I suffering because I am still caught in the world of mechanical reaction, or am I suffering by choice?

Mechanical suffering is useless suffering.
[...]
If the above is uselessly suffering, what, then, would be 'useful suffering'?

Can such a thing exist?

When we say that the life is suffering, we mean that life is an endless succession of events, many of which lead to suffering. There are many causes. If we learn to avoid a specific form of suffering, we can be certain that a new form will arise to challenge us.

Let us say we are in a relationship where we sacrifice ourselves for the good of another, using the excuse that we are closer to God by accepting out lot in life. With effort and reflection we can step back and identify the cause of our suffering. First, it is the acceptance of the Christian teaching on suffering and the subsequent ordering of our life upon that teaching: our acceptance of the needs of someone else at the expence of our own. Having identified this, we can change. We can refuse the original teaching that deformed our understanding of the world, we can step down from the pedestal of long suffering self-righteousness that justified our self-sacrifice, and we can refuse to put our misunderstanding of the needs of others before ourselves.

If we implement these changes, one form of suffering will end. However, a new cause of suffering may well arise - the reaction of those around us as we change. We have learned to stop suffering in one way, and we are now called upon to learn how to stop suffering in this new way. The change within the relationship away awy from our role and identification with 'self-sacrifice' may well lead to a rupture with those around us if they are unable to accept the change. They may to force us back into the old habits until we are obliged to break free in order to maintain the lesson we have learned. This, too, will create more suffering as we face a new life alone, meeting the experiences of learning to live alone and of relying upon ourselves.

But this suffering brought on by new experience can be accompanied by a feeling of joy as we look at what we have accomplished, as we see the change we have brought about in our lives. So there can be, if we so choose, a coupling of suffering and joy: we are joyous because we understand that we are suffering for a reason.

Moreover, although we continue to suffer, we are not suffering in the same ways. We are opening ourselves to new experences and new challenges. Gradually, we can change our outlook on sufering and on life. In looking back and seeing how we have been able to surmount past difficulties with success, as we understand the beneficial changes within us wrought by this testing through fire, we begin to look forward to the difficulties of the future as opportunities and challenges for growth. By passing through the fire of our experience, we know we are changing our way of being in this world and coming to a greater and greater understanding of ourselves, of our abilities, and of our capacity to surmount the roadblocks thrown up by the world to keep us in our place. WE build the faith in our ability to surpass the limits we have placed upon ourselves, the limits of our own thoughts and ideas that prevent us from being who we are, from seeing the world as it really is.

This growing understanding of suffering that comes from passing through the tests of suffering will in turn aid us in understanding others. Through our experience, we will be able to truly help others in the face of their own suffering: not by taking it on and helping them avoid it, but by teaching them the tools necessary to confront the suffering in their own lives. We can help others to see suffering as a means of surmounting suffering., choosing to accept and face this suffering consciously.

The approach
is certainly different than that which would have us erect a protective wall around ourselves, a wall that separates us from the world. The approach that rejects suffering, as we have seen, is a rejection of the Truth about the world and our existence.

The joy brought about through suffering is the lesson that sufering can be more than a burden. It can be a means of self-realization, of burning away the limits we impose upon ourselves. It is the alchemist's fire that transforms metals into gold, the means of forming our link with our 'higher selves' through burning away the dross. Is is the joy to live in Truth, no matter how horrendous tht Truth might be. It is never flinching because we know that we have the strenght to face the Truth and overcome it, no matter how great the challenge. It is the joy of knowing that we can choose not to live in the lie of self-calmimg.

Sufering can thus become the doorway through which we pass to an open experience of a limitless world because we are not afraid to look ahead, not afraid of pursuing new paths for fear of what awaits us, and not afraid of what we might find.
 
green_manalishi said:
So to resume, to do something with a personal purpose, what is important I thing one must renounce a lot of comfortable things (and by that suffer because we have to renounce to a lot that keeps us comfortable in our minds) but knowing that we are doing something important that suffering would not matter.
I think it is less to do with having to renounce comfortable things, and more to do with having to renounce comfortable ways of thinking - to do with NOT following the mechanical path of least resistance dictated by one's false personality. but to come to a deeper understanding of oneself and one's flaws, and to take decisions based on that knowledge. it is a difficult thing to describe.

perhaps a good way to put it would be to say: it is to take decisions to do things that one "doesn't want to do", in the full understanding that it is only the false-personality (the predator's mind) that doesn't want to do these things. And every person will have a specific weak-point/personality-flaw (Gurdjieff called it one's "chief feature"), their own particular 'Achillies Heel' or specific scenario or choice that would generate a huge amount of personal resistance due to that persons particular nature, in which doing what the predator "doesn't want to do" is an extremely difficult choice indeed.

So, by consciously going against ones false personality, and doing something that it very definitely "doesn't want to do", all the while paying full attention to emotional reactions etc, and having an understanding of all this - it will generate an enormous amount of internal 'friction'. If this energy is 'contained' and the false personality is not allowed to dissapate it or relieve it (which it will 'want' to do quickly, to remove the discomfort) this is the energy that can be used to gradually undo ('burn away') some of these mechanical programs of the false personality, and replace them with new 'wiring' based on conscious will - because it is being consciously directed to this end.

That's my understanding of it so far, anyway.
 
Well, I see that my question could have sprung from not understanding exactly the conditions necessary for the intentional sufferings talked about in the Fourth Way "universe". I guess to implement that kind of concept in our lives, one must have a great deal of knowledge and understanding, because more harm could be done than good.

Essays on Life by Henry said:
But this suffering brought on by new experience can be accompanied by a feeling of joy as we look at what we have accomplished, as we see the change we have brought about in our lives. So there can be, if we so choose, a coupling of suffering and joy: we are joyous because we understand that we are suffering for a reason.
This last quote could be an answer to my question.
 
Hi, I’m curious about this article quoted in this thread.
Intentional suffering is discussed in 'Life is fun! Or is it?' article, Work section of Essays on Life.
However when googling it I’m unfortunately unable to find it.

Could someone who knows more kindly post a link or author name?
 
Thanks for digging up this thread. I don’t have the answer for you but I will try to find it. My 2cents is that intentional conscious suffering is when we could act to remove the suffering but we accept it and embrace its existence.

The obvious example is marriage! LOL every suffering born of compromise, misunderstanding and personality type mismatches could be solved by walking out the door. But what a tangled, incomplete mess we would leave and so have even more suffering. We don’t have to try to go find sufferings to be intentionally conscious about. They naturally find us. My dad used to say life is not a bowl of cherries. Now I know why.

BTW, the fact this thread has so few posts and reactions is telling.
 
Hi, I’m curious about this article quoted in this thread.

However when googling it I’m unfortunately unable to find it.

Could someone who knows more kindly post a link or author name?
For me it boils down to knowing yourself and how your machine operates at current. If you are “intentionally” suffering then you are consciously putting yourself in situation(s) that will be hard/painfull/annoying/challenging thus learning more about your centers, emotional/intellectual as these intentional situations will evoke certain emotions and thoughts in you that non suffering situations never would.


The objective is to be conscious during the suffering to learn how you me being operates in the “negative” you put yourself in it to learn and by intentionally doing so you are aware enough to use your senses to learn and choose reactions and observe yourself…and then make choices

If you just seek out “fun” or easy you only learn about that side of yourself
 
Thank you @Menna. I’m already aware of the basics of what intentional suffering entails, I was not enquiring about the term itself but I was enquiring about the written work/article/book that the quoted material came from. Which someone kindly found and shared further on in the thread.

Though on another note, this resurrected thread with associated ideas may be of great help to those still struggling with the concept. Especially whether people are applying it regularly, how they interpret the concept, has their interpretation changed over time and any revelations they may have had. Since this thread is older, I’m sure members have come quite far since and have lots to share with those of us at the beginning stages of the work. Thank you @Menna for sharing your thoughts.
 
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