Jesus and The Pauline Timeline

Laura

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After all the to-ing and fro-ing over the years, (reading hundreds of books and papers on biblical studies) I've become convinced that Acts is little more than a "historical novel" where the author picked out some authentic names and events and wrote his novel around them. There is so much of Josephus and Paul himself in the gospels that any rational historical approach would naturally conclude influence flowing from Josephus and Paul toward the later gospels and Acts. But, it's pretty clear that there is very little of this approach in biblical studies.

An additional problem is that, except for the Wars, which is probably 60% accurate, (Josephus had a lot to hide), Josephus' writings themselves are very much "historical novels."

There are a couple of things that I think may have a very important bearing on the dating of Paul issue; this may take a little building up though I'm going to skip through it as quickly as possible:

1) After going over and over and over Josephus and Tacitus, I'm convinced that Pontius Pilate was not serving in Judaea at the time generally given for the crucifixion. And if Jesus is tied to Pilate, then some dates definitely have to be moved.

Working mainly from Antiquities, with bits from Wars noted here and there:

First of all, we are told that prior to the death of Herod the Great, there was the "Golden Eagle Temple Cleansing" by Judas and Matthias. Executions by burning followed. Herod dies FIVE DAYS after executing his son Antipater. Archelaus buries his father and takes over. At this point, the people foment a rebellion in lament for "Judas and Matthias" and make an assault on the soldiers. Archelaus responds and kills 3,000 of them.

Archelaus then heads for Rome and "Sabinus, Caesar's steward for Syrian affairs" was hot-footing it to Judea to take charge of Herod's effects. Varus attempts to restrain him but to no effect. As soon as Varus heads back to Antioch, Sabinus goes for the gold and whatever else.

Well, this bit of the story is really iffy: that Sabinus would defy Varus???

Anyway, NOW, all of a sudden, there is a "revolt of the Jews" against Sabinus just after the revolt of the Jews against Archelaus. Like having 3000 of them killed didn’t calm things down? Then, all of a sudden, Varus is in Judea at the time of this revolt AFTER which he goes to Antioch. (Compare chapters 9 and 10 in Book 17.) Here it says that after Varus went away, Sabinus "greatly distressed the Jews". (at Pentecost) So, did the rebellion happen while Archelaus was there, or only after? The whole story just reeks of manipulated facts and details and doubling. And through this whole deal there are messiahs galore, all of whom are basically rebel leaders of one sort or another and "the number crucified ...were 2000". 295-298 in chapter 10 is not only confused, it is absurd. Varus disbands his army because they are unruly and then 10,000 Jews just gave themselves up to him???

After this mess, supposedly Augustus divides the kingdom between Archelaus, Philip and Antipas.

Now notice that Damascus was NEVER given to the Jewish puppets. It was probably ruled by Aretas from 9 BC to 40 AD. Josephus refers to it as a "foreign city (Wars 1.422. See also 2.215.) So Paul’s interlude in Damascus under the rule of Aretas could have happened any time during that period.

Skip over a bunch more nonsense (which, nevertheless, requires careful reading and comparing with Wars and Tacitus to know how nonsensical some of it is). We zero in on Archelaus again who has just entered on his ethnarchy. First thing he did was take the high priesthood away from Joazar (for assisting the rebels) and gave it to Eleazar his brother. "Nor did this Eleazar abide long in the hight priesthood, Jesus, the son of Sie, being put in his place while he was still living." (17.341)

He then undertakes magnificent building projects including "he diverted half the water with which the village of Neara used to be watered, and drew off that water into the plain, to water those palm trees which he had there planted" (17.340). Next we have Archelaus marrying his brother's widow, having a dream interpreted by Simon the Essene, FIVE DAYS after which "the other Archelaus that was sent to Judea by Caesar to call him away, came here also." Glaphyra then has a dream and "a few days" later she dies. This was "in the tenth year of Archelaus's government." (17.342)

Priests:
Joazar son of Boethus,
Eleazar (brother of Joazar),
Jesus son of Sie.

"So Archelaus's country was laid to theprovince of Syria; and Cyrenius, one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria, and to sell the house of Archelaus." (17.354)


Book 18:

Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them until he had been consul, and one who on other accounts was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria... Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews." Josephus makes much of Cyrenius, unlike what he wrote about Varus and Sabinus. But he notes here that, despite the fact that Coponius has the authority "Cyrenius came himself into Judea..." So, rather like Varus and Sabinus.

Notice that Cyrenius is basically doing the same thing that Sabinus/Varus were to do at the death of Herod the Great only ostensibly 10 years later, i.e. 6 AD.

As an aside, I've databased comets paying particular attention to the intervals of Halley's, and there is a 10/11 year "increase" in the period right here so that, of course, catches my attention.

Josephus repeats that Judea was added to the province of Syria.

Joazar, son of Boethus reappears as high priest! However, here, instead of fomenting rebellion, he is credited with quelling it. (18.3) But, there is another evil Judas of Gamala and his pal Sadduc, a Pharisee, who were fomenting revolt rather along the line of Judas and Matthias. The wording here through (6) is VERY similar to Josephus' description of Judas the Galileans "4th Philosophy" not to mention the revered Teacher of Judas and Matthias/Golden Eagle fame. And it is here that Josephus sets out the "philosophies".

(18.26-27) "Cyrenius had now disposed of Archelaus's money, and when the taxings were come to a conclusion, which were made in the thirty-seventh year of Caesar's victory over Antony at Actium..." i.e. 6 AD as noted, "he deprived Joazar of the high priesthood, which dignity had been conferred on him by the multitude, (how did THAT happen?) and he appointed Ananus the son of Seth while Herod [Antipas] and Philip had each of them received their own tetrarchy, and settled the affairs thereof."

NOW, Antipas and Philip embark on their own building projects similar to those of Archelaus ten years previous. Yes, you could say that Josephus focused on Archelaus first, then turns his attention to Antipas and Philip but the Joazar item is curious. As noted above, this Joazar was deposed by Archelaus in 4 BC for assisting the rebels and gave it to Eleazar his brother. "Nor did this Eleazar abide long in the high priesthood, Jesus, the son of Sie, being put in his place while he was still living." (17.341)

It’s beginning to look more like a doublet.

Coponius has a set-to with the Jews at Passover because of Samaritan issues. "A little after this incident Coponius returned to Rome, and Marcus Ambivius came to be his successor..." (18.31)

"After him came Annius Rufus, under whom died Caesar..." (18.32)

Okay, we have Coponius - 6 AD
Marcus Ambivius (Ambivulus) - 9 AD
Annius Rufus - 12 AD (Death of Augustus AD 14)

Then we come to Valerius Gratus who is said to have served from 15 to 26 to be replaced by Pilate.

"[Tiberius] sent Valerius Gratus to be procurator of Judea, and to succeed Annius Rufus. This man deprived Ananus of the high priesthood, and appointed Ismael, the son of Phabi... He also deprived him in a little time, and ordained Eleazar, the son of Ananus, who had been a high priest before, to be high priest; which office when he had held for a year, Gratus deprived him of it, and gave the high priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus; and when he had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done those things, he went back to Rome, after he had waited in Judea eleven years, when Pontius Pilate came as his successor." (18.33-35)

High priests:
Joazar son of Boethus, brother of Eleazar deposed 6 AD and Ananus put in his place.

Ananus, son of Seth - Supposed to have been high priest from 6 AD to 15? 8 years more or less?

Neither Marcus Ambivius nor Annius Rufus saw fit to change the high priests which the Romans were wont to do so that none of them would become too powerful?

Then, Valerius Gratus appoints four in rapid succession:

Ismael, son of Phabi - "deprived him in a little time" which sounds like months.
Eleazar, son of Ananus - one year
Simon son of Camithus - one year
Joseph Caiphas - then Gratus departs leaving him in office.

Based on the high priest count, Valerius Gratus was NOT in Judea for 11 years but rather three or four years. But it is even more problematical because, in Wars 2.168 -171, we read:

"But when the Roman Empire was translated to Tiberius... both Herod and Philip continued in their tetrarchies; and the latter of them built the city of Caesarea... Herod also built the city of Tiberius in Galilee... Now Pilate, who was sent as procurator into Judea by Tiberius, sent by night those images of Caesar that are called ensigns into Jerusalem...." resulting in a big to-do that is plainly absurd.

BUT, at this point, what does Pilate do? (175) “After this he raised another disturbance, by expending that sacred treasure which is called corban upon aqueducts, whereby he brought water from the distance of four hundred furlongs. At this the multitude had indignation." Which led to a strategem where Pilate placed assassins in the crowd... Sicarii, in effect.

The two versions of Josephus are different enough to raise questions.

Now, notice in the above from Wars, there is no mention of prior prefects or procurators or whatever of Judea other than Coponius, back in chapter 8 (117), the mention of whom precedes the discussion the four philosophies as in Antiquities. It is as though Tiberius sent Pilate immediately upon his taking over the government.

So what are we to think about that hokey story of several governors and high priests following Coponius in Antiquities. If we go strictly by what we can derive from the text in terms of dates, we still are only at 19 AD when Pilate arrives. And even that might fit another event: the sending of Piso and Germanicus in 19.

Now, certainly the "Pilate Stone" confirms that Pilate was there and that he was prefect, NOT procurator. Tacitus’ mention is no help because it is later hearsay. Philo’s brief discussion of Pilate really sheds no light on anything either because it is retrospective and undatable. Plus, Josephus thinks that army standards were involved while Philo says gilded shields with an inscription. So we have sort of a hybrid: golden eagles??? Are we dealing with a triplet and not a doublet?

Back to Antiquities: Josephus next says (18.39) “About this time died Phraates, king of the Parthians” i.e. 16 AD followed by the first Artabanas drama. (Tacitus, Annales, 2.3 ff. Also: 2.58)

Then, we hear that Silanus is “president” of Syria(18.52). This would have to have been C. Silanus, (cos. 10) who, after five years, would have been eligible to be proconsul of Asia. None of the other Silanus prospects would fit during the time of Pilate if dated later. Tacitus tells us that this Silanus was arraigned in 22 AD for extortion in the cities of Asia. (Tacitus, Annales, 3.66 and 4.15.3)

Next: “At this time died Antiochus, the king of Commagene… so the senate made a decree that Germanicus should be sent to settle the affairs of the east….” (Ant. 18.54) That would be 18 AD. We also hear that another Silanus is consul in AD 19 along with Norbanus.

The important point of all this is to attempt to establish the fact that Pontius Pilate was in Judea a LOT earlier than is generally thought to be the case, and he probably was NOT there for 10 or 11 years. All of the Josephan text before and around and after the mention of Pilate relates to the years 16 to 19, at least, possibly 15 to 19.

When Josephus comes back to Pilate in Chapter 3 (18.55 ff), it is immediately following his remark about the death of Germanicus and it appears to be him going back to Pilate after a digression onto the other matters (the building projects of the Herodians and the Artabanus business). So, now he comes back to Pilate and it seems that he re-set himself to about 16 AD and here’s why: after his discussion of the effigies which arrived with Pilate, Josephus mentions again the corban/water issue that was noted in Wars. In Wars, it was 400 furlongs, in Antiquities, it was 200. But who’s counting?

Skip the TF for the moment, and the stories about Roman upsets and pick back up with Pilate in Chapter 4 (18.85): here we have a disruption due to Samaritans. Notice that Coponius also had problems with Samaritans (more doubling?). (18.31) Pilate apparently killed a number of them and the Samaritans complained to Vitellius, who was apparently governor of Syria at that moment (what happened to Silanus?). Vitellius pulls rank on Pilate, sends Marcellus to handle Judea, and orders Pilate to Rome. BUT, Josephus then tells us that Tiberius was dead before Pilate could get there!!!

That is an absolutely astonishing leap from 19 to 37!!! 18 years, in fact. So, how the heck did that happen?

I would suggest that the person Pilate was being sent to was Germanicus and it was HE who was dead before Pilate reached him. That is, after all, in keeping with the whole general context of the surrounding passages. There’s just no justification for a jump of 18 years.

But let’s stop a moment and think about this sudden appearance of Vitellius.

There are several Vitelliuses in Tacitus but only two would have qualified for proconsular duties: 1) L. Vitellius, consul 34, 43, 47; 2) A. Vitellius, consul in 48. Both of these are too late for our Pilate episode.

BUT, we also find a Vitellius who was a “friend of Germanicus”. We find him in Germany in Annales 1.70; in 2.6 he heads off to do a census of the Galliae; in 2.74, we find the most interesting mention: It is immediately following the death of Germanicus, and takes place in Syria:

“There was next a debate between the legates and other senators who were present as to who should be placed in charge of Syria. And, after only modest exertions from the others, for a long time the issue was between Vibius Marsus and Cn. Sentius. Then Marsus yielded to the seniority and keener contention of Sentius. (Epigraphic evidence shows that the appointment of Cn. Sentius Saturninus (suffect consul 4 AD) was confirmed by Tiberius.) and he, for his part dispatched to the City (Rome) a woman infamous for poisonings in the province and particularly dear to Plancina, by name of Martina, in response to demands from Vitellius and Veranius and the rest, who were drawing up charges and accusations as if against persons already cited as defendants.”

So, that means that Vitellius was with Germanicus in Syria at the time he died. This is supported later in 3.9-10 when Piso is being arraigned for poisoning Germanicus back in Rome:

“On the next day Fulcinius Trio arraigned Piso before the consuls. Yet Vitellius and Veranius and the other of Germanicus’ companions maintained that there was no role for Trio; nor were they accusers themselves, they said, but as informants and witnesses of events they would deliver Germanicus’ instructions.”

Next: 3.13:

Then Fulcinius embarked on past irrelevancies, namely the fact that Piso’s tenure of Spain had been marked by corruption and greed (Piso had been legate there in 9/10 AD) … After this, Servaeus and Veranius and Vitellius with like enthusiasm (and with much eloquence on Vitellius’ part) cast the charge that in his hatred for Germanicus and his enthusiasm for revolution Piso, by licensing maltreatment of the allies, had corrupted the common soldiers to such a degree that the basest of them called him “parent of the legions.” Conversely, they said he had been savage to all the best men, especially to the companions and friends of Germanicus. Finally, he had annihilated the man himself by curses and poison: hence the rituals and abominable offerings by himself and Plancina, his claiming the state by arms, and – to ensure his appearance as the accused – his defeat in the line of battle.”

Another brief mention 3.17, and then 3.19: A few days after Caesar [Tiberius] initiated the senate’s granting of priesthoods to Vitellius and Veranius and Servaeus. … That was the end to the avenging, though Germanicus’ death was bandied about in various rumors not only among those men who lived then but also in following times. So is it the case that all the greatest matters are ambiguous, inasmuch as some people hold any form of hearsay as confirmed, others turn truth into its converse, and each swells among posterity.”

P. Vitellius, later commits suicide under indictment for something in 31 AD following the fall of Sejanus. Tacitus’ narrative is missing the end of 29 AD, all of 30, and most of 31. That period is, of course, the very period in which Jesus is said to have been crucified in Judea and might have included some pertinent information that contradicted such a claim. So, we don’t know what Vitellius was being charged with – possibly revolutionary actions against Tiberius? Being in cahoots with Sejanus?

As to there being a governor of Syria named Vitellius, we find one in Annales 6.41 mentioned as sending troops to the “nation of the Cietae” including the legate M. Trebellius. :

P. Vitellius’ wife, Acutia, was arraigned on some charge in 37 AD.

Meanwhile, back to the Testimonium: following this passage, there begins a story at 18.65 which is actually something of a take-off on a story that appears in Tacitus under the year 58 AD. How the heck did that get there? (Annales 13.44-45) Well, obviously, the story got around and was fair game for novelization.

Josephus version features novelistic elements and the abused heroine is named Paulina and her indulgent husband is Saturninus; she gets mixed up with the Egyptian cult and is abused shamefully.

The following tale in Josephus about THREE JEWS defrauding a noblewoman named Fulvia who, oddly, is also married to a Saturninus only raises the eyebrows even higher. These two events allegedly precede a banishing of Jewish and Egyptian rites from Rome as well as a the exiling of many Jews from Rome by Tiberius, something that occurred in 19 AD. We are reminded that Cn. Sentius Saturninus took over as governor of Syria/Judea after the death of Germanicus.

Thus, the Testimonium itself is given in a very 19 AD context all the way around. It appears that Pilate came in 15 or 16 and was “sent down” in 19 because he was so incompetent and may have been in cahoots with Piso. Bottom line is, it seems that if anybody was crucified/executed under Pontius Pilate, he had a very narrow window in which to do it, and it was certainly 11 years earlier than supposed. (More or less.)

So, that’s the short version of the 1st matter.

The second is this: it seems to me that the expulsion of Jews from Rome in 49 was simply Paul’s conflict that is exposed in his letters following him there. Clement said he had been exiled, well, maybe that was when. Maybe things happened just a tad earlier than we suppose (and forget Gallio, the Lukan author took that from Josephus and spun a tale around it.) If you anchor Paul in Rome in 49, then you only have to work backwards by the numbers. And you aren’t blocked by any 30 AD crucifixion date. You have a whole 11 additional years to work with.
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

According to the "biblically" understood history, Valerius Gratus was the Roman Prefect of Judea province under Tiberius from 15 to 26 AD. He succeeded Annius Rufus and was replaced by Pontius Pilate.

Can we find Valerius Gratus in Tacitus?

No though we do find a number of other Valeriuses.

Now, if we are working from the date that I think is valid, i.e. 15 to 19, the only Valerius that would have been eligible would have been Marcus Valerius Messalla Messalinus who was consul in 3 BC. We learn about him that, at the death of Augustus, during a debate in the senate afterward, "Messala Valerius added that the oath in Tiberius' name should be renewed annually..." (Annales 1.8)

This Valerius was the son of the famous orator M. Valerius Messalla Corvinus. He (the son) shows up again, surprise surprise, around the death of Germanicus.

Annales 3.18 where Tiberius is dealing with the "vengeance" for the death of Germanicus: "Valerius Messalinus proposed that a golden statue should be set up in the temple of Mars the Avenger..." Tiberius demurred.

Not much else of interest. He apparently was never in Syria/Judea.

There is another M. Valerius who is consul in 20 AD and was, apparently, the son of Marcus Valerius Messalla Messalinus who was consul in 3 BC.

There is another possible: Marcus Valerius Messala Volesus who was consul in 5 AD and had been proconsul of Asia in 11/12 AD.

It is unlikely, with the name, that this alleged Prefect of Judea would have been an equestrian.

We have to remember that many of these names that get tossed around about Judea by Josephus are known ONLY BY HIM.

Anyway, it looks like Valerius Gratus is also a bust.
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

Let me come back to Silanus:

Then, we hear that Silanus is “president” of Syria(18.52). This would have to have been C. Silanus, (cos. 10) who, after five years, would have been eligible to be proconsul of Asia. None of the other Silanus prospects would fit during the time of Pilate if dated later. Tacitus tells us that this Silanus was arraigned in 22 AD for extortion in the cities of Asia. (Tacitus, Annales, 3.66 and 4.15.3)

About this arraignment:

"C. Silanus, the proconsul of Asia, arraigned by the allies for extortion, was seized simultaneously by Mamercus Scaurus, one of the consulars, Junius Otho, a praetor, and Bruttedius Niger and aedile, and the cast at him the charge that he had violated Augustus' divinity and spurned Tiberius' sovereignty... The number of accusers was increased by Gellius Publicola and M. Paconius, the former the quaestor of Silanus, the latter his legate.

"There was held to be no doubt that he was liable on charges of savagery and of taking money...

"Tiberius, in order that his intentions for Silanus might be received more justifiably with the help of an example, ordered the documents of Divine Augustus concerning Volesus Messala (likewise a proconsul of Asia) and the senate's decision passed against him to be read out. ..."

The above provides us with a clue that the earlier Marcus Valerius Messala Volesus who was consul in 5 AD and had been proconsul of Asia in 11/12 AD must have had charges brought against him.

Anyway, they are all ganging up on Silanus, but Tiberius has a bit of mercy on him at the request of Silanus' sister, "Torquata, a Virgin of old-time sanctity." (An inscription was found that attests to her having been a Vestal Virgin for 64 years.) The story is in Annales 3.66 - 70.

So, it seems that Silanus did not have to wait the five years to become proconsul but was sent directly to Asia after his consular year and was there probably 11/12. But that creates an even greater difficulty for Josephus because he has him as "president of Syria" somewhat later.

There was a C. Appius Junius Silanus who was consul in 28 and could possibly have been sent out in 29 or 30. Here's what Tacitus says about him:

"With Junius Silanus and with Silius Nerva as consuls, a foul beginning to the year was made with the dragging to prison of the illustrious Roman equestrian Titius Sabinus owing to his friendship with Germanicus." (4.68)

Now, isn't it interesting that there is a Sabinus hanging out with Germanicus, too, recalling that there was an alleged Sabinus causing problems by going after Herod the Great's estate when Archelaus headed off for Rome. But that was much earlier, 4 BC. So perhaps this Sabinus was a son of the "agent of Augustus"?

Apparently, Silanus prosecution was delayed and we find him again in 32 AD: "Annius Pollio and Appius Silanus along with Scaurus Mamercus and Sabinus Calvisius were arraigned for treason..." (6.9) This Silanus was, apparently, murdered by Claudius' freedman, Narcissus, in 42, which one deduces from a passing reference at 11.29.1.

Basically, we are having a real hard time lining any of these real people and events up with the novelized version by Josephus.
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

Now, let me look at this Titius Sabinus who was connected to the death of Herod the Great as the agent of Augustus (allegedly) and later, one by that name as a friend of Germanicus.

Annales 4.17 - 19 excerpts:

AD 24: "With Cornelius Cethegus and Visellius Varro as consuls... [Tiberius] was being hounded by Sejanus, who repeatedly censured the fact that the community was split as in a civil war: there were, he said, people calling themselves members of "Agrippina's faction"... [widow of Germanicus] ... It was for this reason that he attacked C. Silius and Titius Sabinus. Ruinous to each of them was their friendship with Germanicus, but to Silius was also the fact that, as controller of a mighty army for seven years and, after winning the triumphal insignia in Germany, as victor in the Sacrovirian war... Silius' wife was Sosia Galla, resented by the princeps on account of her affection for Agrippina. The decision was made to seize them both, deferring Sabinus for a time..."

And we read of the dragging to prison of Sabinus already mentioned. In short, it is either the same alleged person who was the "agent of Augustus" in 4 BC, or the son of same. But if it was the son, it is odd that Tacitus does not mention the family connection because he is usually very diligent about those things.

In other words, it looks like, again, Josephus has used the name of one of Germanicus' friends/staff/entourage to take some position or other in his novelized tale the Sorrows of Judea.
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

Laura said:
Now, let me look at this Titius Sabinus who was connected to the death of Herod the Great as the agent of Augustus (allegedly) and later, one by that name as a friend of Germanicus.

Annales 4.17 - 19 excerpts:

AD 24: "With Cornelius Cethegus and Visellius Varro as consuls... [Tiberius] was being hounded by Sejanus, who repeatedly censured the fact that the community was split as in a civil war: there were, he said, people calling themselves members of "Agrippina's faction"... [widow of Germanicus] ... It was for this reason that he attacked C. Silius and Titius Sabinus. Ruinous to each of them was their friendship with Germanicus, but to Silius was also the fact that, as controller of a mighty army for seven years and, after winning the triumphal insignia in Germany, as victor in the Sacrovirian war... Silius' wife was Sosia Galla, resented by the princeps on account of her affection for Agrippina. The decision was made to seize them both, deferring Sabinus for a time..."

And we read of the dragging to prison of Sabinus already mentioned. In short, it is either the same alleged person who was the "agent of Augustus" in 4 BC, or the son of same. But if it was the son, it is odd that Tacitus does not mention the family connection because he is usually very diligent about those things.

In other words, it looks like, again, Josephus has used the name of one of Germanicus' friends/staff/entourage to take some position or other in his novelized tale the Sorrows of Judea.

Laura,

In what appears to me as a possible synchronicity, a friend of mine recently wanted me to read a book by Reza Aslan which is titled Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth (2013-07-16) Random House Publishing. I was reading it mostly so I could return it in a timely manner. I was just about to the end of Part I when I saw this topic. Some of the names and events in your research here were mentioned in this book and it got my attention. This book is mostly an attempt to identify the most likely Jesus figure in the historical records. One reason I agreed to read his book was the author's background being raised in a Muslim family which might give a different perspective.

I am not finished reading the whole book but I decided to get the Kindle version so I could more quickly cross-reference some of your research with this Zealot book. I have not found much yet but I did notice that at least Reza Aslan also finds Josephus to be a questionable source in places. Here is a small section from his notes about Josephus' motives for the famine in Jerusalem:

For a description of the famine that ensued in Jerusalem during Titus’s siege, see Josephus, The Jewish War 5.427– 571, 6.271– 76. Josephus, who was writing
his history of the war for the very man who won it, presents Titus as trying desperately to restrain his men from killing wantonly and in particular from destroying the Temple. This is obviously nonsense. It is merely Josephus pandering to his Roman audience. Josephus also sets the number of Jews who died in Jerusalem at one million. This is clearly an exaggeration.

In another place in his notes his opinion of Josephus' credibility is found:

Agrippa’s speech is from The Jewish War 2.355– 78. As moving as the speech may be, it is obviously Josephus’s own creation.

I have not read the rest of the book yet but I think he may be on the right track about Paul in this short quote:

Paul’s conception of Christianity may have been heretical before 70 C.E. But afterward, his notion of a wholly new religion free from the authority of a Temple that no longer existed, unburdened by a law that no longer mattered, and divorced from a Judaism that had become a pariah was enthusiastically embraced by converts throughout the Roman Empire. Hence, in 398 C.E., when, according to legend, another group of bishops gathered at a council in the city of Hippo Regius in modern-day Algeria to canonize what would become known as the New Testament, they chose to include in the Christian scriptures one letter from James, the brother and successor of Jesus, two letters from Peter, the chief apostle and first among the Twelve, three letters from John, the beloved disciple and pillar of the church, and fourteen letters from Paul, the deviant and outcast who was rejected and scorned by the leaders in Jerusalem. In fact, more than half of the twenty-seven books that now make up the New Testament are either by or about Paul.

I don't know if I have any useful material here but I just thought I would let you know what I am finding so far. This history researching is something I never thought I would even be interested in until I started reading your books!
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

goyacobol said:
Paul’s conception of Christianity may have been heretical before 70 C.E. But afterward, his notion of a wholly new religion free from the authority of a Temple that no longer existed, unburdened by a law that no longer mattered, and divorced from a Judaism that had become a pariah was enthusiastically embraced by converts throughout the Roman Empire. Hence, in 398 C.E., when, according to legend, another group of bishops gathered at a council in the city of Hippo Regius in modern-day Algeria to canonize what would become known as the New Testament, they chose to include in the Christian scriptures one letter from James, the brother and successor of Jesus, two letters from Peter, the chief apostle and first among the Twelve, three letters from John, the beloved disciple and pillar of the church, and fourteen letters from Paul, the deviant and outcast who was rejected and scorned by the leaders in Jerusalem. In fact, more than half of the twenty-seven books that now make up the New Testament are either by or about Paul.

I don't know if I have any useful material here but I just thought I would let you know what I am finding so far. This history researching is something I never thought I would even be interested in until I started reading your books!

The first part of the quote is accurate enough, but the legend of the canonization of scripture is probably nonsense. See David Trobisch's book on the publishing of the New Testament, whodunnit, when and why. It's not very long, and filled with fun facts and jolly jottings!
 
Re: The Pauline Timeline

Laura said:
goyacobol said:
Paul’s conception of Christianity may have been heretical before 70 C.E. But afterward, his notion of a wholly new religion free from the authority of a Temple that no longer existed, unburdened by a law that no longer mattered, and divorced from a Judaism that had become a pariah was enthusiastically embraced by converts throughout the Roman Empire. Hence, in 398 C.E., when, according to legend, another group of bishops gathered at a council in the city of Hippo Regius in modern-day Algeria to canonize what would become known as the New Testament, they chose to include in the Christian scriptures one letter from James, the brother and successor of Jesus, two letters from Peter, the chief apostle and first among the Twelve, three letters from John, the beloved disciple and pillar of the church, and fourteen letters from Paul, the deviant and outcast who was rejected and scorned by the leaders in Jerusalem. In fact, more than half of the twenty-seven books that now make up the New Testament are either by or about Paul.

I don't know if I have any useful material here but I just thought I would let you know what I am finding so far. This history researching is something I never thought I would even be interested in until I started reading your books!

The first part of the quote is accurate enough, but the legend of the canonization of scripture is probably nonsense. See David Trobisch's book on the publishing of the New Testament, whodunnit, when and why. It's not very long, and filled with fun facts and jolly jottings!

Thanks for the heads-up on the canonization part. I am wondering how the Council of Trent ties into the whodunnit picture. I just have that "holder of the Trent" phrase on the back burner I guess. If I add the Trobisch book to my list I will probably be still reading when transitioning to 5D. :lkj:
 
Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

Hello and greetings. This has been on my mind for awhile. How do we reconcile the Jesus readings of Edgar Cayce to the Jesus readings from the C's? The C's are indicating the Caesar is Jesus, or at least the pattern for the myth of Jesus. And Edgar Cayce readings are about the Jesus we understand through the bible (does not indicate Jesus is connected to Caesar). I respect both sources of course. But, they seem at odds. How does one reconcile the differences? Thank you and have a great day everyone. :)
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

CEC said:
Hello and greetings. This has been on my mind for awhile. How do we reconcile the Jesus readings of Edgar Cayce to the Jesus readings from the C's? The C's are indicating the Caesar is Jesus, or at least the pattern for the myth of Jesus. And Edgar Cayce readings are about the Jesus we understand through the bible (does not indicate Jesus is connected to Caesar). I respect both sources of course. But, they seem at odds. How does one reconcile the differences? Thank you and have a great day everyone. :)

I'm not terribly interested in reconciling the Cayce Jesus material since it is obvious that it was heavily influenced by his beliefs.

By now, after spending the past couple of years plowing through hundreds of texts on the topic from every conceivable angle, I am convinced that the Jesus of the gospels is a composite character and that there never was a "Jesus of Nazareth" as depicted in those texts.

Not only that, but there are two distinct "Christologies" that come together in the creatively redacted/composed gospels: a Greek god Roman Hero type and a Jewish messiah type. There are many cross-overs due to the fact that the whole Greco-Roman Empire had been Hellenized for a very long time. And before that, they had been Persianized, and the Persians had been Assyrianized and Hittiteized and Babylonianized, so it is like trying to sort out a can of worms to figure out who really influenced who.

One thing is certain, the Old Testament was heavily influenced (and borrowed from) Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek AND Roman literature to create its faked history. The audacity of making a claim for a tribal war/storm god as the "creator of the universe" is stunning - and they pulled it off, too! So, when the NT borrowed heavily from the OT for its "messianic" ideas, it was already pulling on foreign material filtered through a particular, schizoid lens.

The evidence for utilization of Caesar's bio and Homeric themes in the NT is overwhelming. The evidence that the gospels and Acts drew on the theology and words of Paul to put in the mouth of their manufactured Jesus is also overwhelming.

It's funny: I used to evaluate channeled sources by whether or not they supported the Jesus story; now, it's exactly the opposite: if they did, they they weren't connected to a very objective source.
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

Thank you! My only way to reconcile, was the idea that Cayce was reading the idea and perpetuated belief of Jesus that so many know. He stated that often he couldn't tell if he was reading thoughts or an actual event since they seemed to be similar. But he often has detail of the birth, history, and life that seem unknown by him or an imagination. He seems to have insight on other things and so I'm not sure why this subject would be so wrong. And we know of course that the C's information is not always 100 percent either. So for me it needs reconciliation. However, that could be near impossible. Ever contemplating.... :)
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

The only other thing I could think of, is that there is more to the 'local stoic philosopher' that is mentioned in the 2014 July 12 reading. The C's say he did contribute to the story. I'm not sure we can dismiss that as much as we tend to. :)
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

CEC said:
The only other thing I could think of, is that there is more to the 'local stoic philosopher' that is mentioned in the 2014 July 12 reading. The C's say he did contribute to the story. I'm not sure we can dismiss that as much as we tend to. :)

Yes, there is something to that, for sure I THINK. BUT, having said that, finding a number of things in the gospels that come straight from ANCIENT stoic philosophers and some platonic stuff, there doesn't even have to be a stoic type philosopher in the woodpile - they just copied stuff that was common currency.

Also, it would be MOST enlightening for people to read Josephus and Tacitus alternately. Josephus was one of the revolutionaries and had a LOT to hide, so you really have to read between the lines. And also notice how much stuff he borrowed or simply made up.

It's a VERY enlightening experience to read Josephus' paraphrase of the Bible. If you know your Bible, you'll be shocked or amused at the way he manipulated the text.
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

CEC said:
Hello and greetings. This has been on my mind for awhile. How do we reconcile the Jesus readings of Edgar Cayce to the Jesus readings from the C's? The C's are indicating the Caesar is Jesus, or at least the pattern for the myth of Jesus. And Edgar Cayce readings are about the Jesus we understand through the bible (does not indicate Jesus is connected to Caesar). I respect both sources of course. But, they seem at odds. How does one reconcile the differences? Thank you and have a great day everyone. :)

Thanks CEC for bringing the topic up.
Without pretending, here's a possible explanation to the difference between Cayce's source and the Cs.

I recall several instances where the Cs said something to the effect of “when we tell you something, we need to stay clear of your beliefs”. “If we were to tell you the whole enchillada all at once, you would be overwhelmed, destroyed, and then you would throw away everything. We will not risk that”. I’m heavily paraphrasing BTW but trying to stay within context.
Other intriguing answers in the style of “we will tell you when you are ready to receive”, “wait and see” abound.
Another clue I got from reading the sessions where Frank was channeling.
How I understood it, in his channeling Frank actually watered down and/or mixed his personal additives, thus biasing, distorting or even contaminating bar falsifying some of the original source information.

So far so good.
As a working hypothesis, and with a slightly Jungian-meets-signal processing slant, I imagine a source, and a receiver. The receiver can be overloaded, quantitatively and/or qualitatively, so I first postulate a filter at the receiver input with the purpose of preventing overload conditions.
In the receiver itself, there is an adder/mixer, with variable influence on the message.
The filter and adder/mixer are tools set up by the managing and caretaking entities in your own psyche: conscience, soul, ego, super-ego, plus all the complexes and other assorted critters.
The filter’s purpose is mainly protection of the status quo, i.e. the wealth of experience, knowledge beliefs etc. on which your very daily and yearly existence as an individuum relies.
To a variable degree, the adder/mixer blends, or piggybacks, your personal agenda with the message.

The same mechanism is well known in analysis and psychotherapy. As a therapist, you want to identify, but stay clear of challenging and fighting these protective implements in a head-on fashion. As glaringly obvious as they may appear to the therapist, disaster would ensue if she/he abruptly raised them to the level of the patient’s consciousness, unceremoniously slamming them in her face.
Instead, the productive approach is to periodically tickle them in some creative way, waiting until they slowly surface, i.e. manifest themselves in the patient’s conscience, then patiently “watch” as they peel off by themselves, dry and useless like the layers of an onion, or a shedded skin.
In short, the "filter" protects defensive but structural crutches, for the patient’s temporary good (with a tribute to our natural ingeniousness securing our survival).

Back to the JCs, IMO Cayce’s source was simply respecting Cayce’s limits set by his apparently strong Christian belief system. And it can be assumed that the Cs have been applying the same "filtering" rules. Not an easy task if you think about it: conveying a higher truth within the constraints of a lower “truth system”. Maybe a reason why we perceive, as you (CEC) remark, “the Cs have not always been 100% correct”.

If the above hypothesis holds water, it opens up a few interesting and challenging lines of inquiry.
But let me go off on a tangent. Seeking truth, in my personal experience, isn’t just an exercise in depth of enquiry, discarding this and keeping that in the process. It’s not just a game of tic-tac-toe against falsehood, rooting for truth. Much more than that, it entails a test of our own openness and resilience when confronted with an unexpected greater truth. And by greater truth I mean typically one which renders previous fights between truth and falsehood irrelevant, obsolete.
Beyond some possibly parsalysing fight-or-flight diatribe, we ought to always be open enough to accept a ‘tertium non datur’ of Aristoteles' fame: tough to swallow but oh so liberating.
FWIW
.A
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

I'm still trying to make the correct connection to the name Jesinavarah. Is that the stoic philosopher? The stoic reference feels like something. It like, ah ha! So, there IS someone that perhaps Christians can hang a hat on. And the stoic comment is indeed a specific C statement. It has no doubt created a huge pondering that I can't seem to satisfy.

I'm certainly ok with Caesar being Jesus. That's the only thing that really does make sense. But, I'm obviously perplexed by the readings of Cayce who is accurate on so many other things. :)
 
Re: Reconciling Cayce Jesus info with the C's Jesus info

CEC said:
I'm still trying to make the correct connection to the name Jesinavarah. Is that the stoic philosopher? The stoic reference feels like something. It like, ah ha! So, there IS someone that perhaps Christians can hang a hat on. And the stoic comment is indeed a specific C statement. It has no doubt created a huge pondering that I can't seem to satisfy.

I'm certainly ok with Caesar being Jesus. That's the only thing that really does make sense. But, I'm obviously perplexed by the readings of Cayce who is accurate on so many other things. :)

Laura just told you the posible explanation, at the beginning of the sessions the C's gave some information based on Laura's beliefs back then, they gave her some hints but most of the info was corrupted, if you read the "Caesar is the real jesus christ" thread completely you will find some util info about the posible "stoic philosopher", also happens that many prophecies that Cayce said didn't happen and others happened in a more symbolic way.. although he has been right in many subjects I would take Edgar's info with a little grain of salt and no too serious. Belief systems takes a huge part in channeled information if the person channeling has a very strong belief system then the info that will come will be corrupted in some way.
 
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